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first123last
Photographer
P O T T S
Posts: 5,239
Lake City, Florida, US


I give as many retouched shots as I like from the shoot. Never less than 5, but if I think I got 20 killer shots, that is what the model will get. Some models like to learn from mistakes as well as we do. So something I have just started doing is creating a contact sheet of all the shots. I include the contact sheet on the cd. Let the model get a lupe and start looking at his/her work so they can get better at their craft as well.
Jul 28 09 03:57 am  Link  Quote 
Model
merel 89
Posts: 1,140
Tilburg, Noord-Brabant, Netherlands


after my tf shoots i tend to look at all the pictures we've made, and then we both select pictures we like...
i think that's a really fair weer of TF, the photographer gets the pictures he likes, i can get the ones i like... everybody hapy
Jul 28 09 03:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RJ Ohrstedt
Posts: 546
Atlanta, Georgia, US


I always promise five usable photos, and usually deliver 10-20. I never give unedited images, and have stopped giving CD's. I put the finished images in a gallery on my web site, from which they can download whatever they want. I tell them the gallery will remain private for about a week, at which time some or all of the photos will get moved into my portfolio.

I've had two models ask for raw files to retouch; I said no. I also had several ask for all the photos, and I told them the ones I don't post aren't worth seeing.
Jul 28 09 04:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sylvester Photography
Posts: 125
Huntsville, Alabama, US


As for me, for any shoot, (TF or paid) I do not mind giving the models copy of all the shots I have taken.  We sit down together when i am finish editing and see what we like. 

Sometimes they will see a shot and say "Dont like that one, please delete that one" and if I disagree I ask if I can keep it for myself and then ask what she did not like about it.  And then we will pick out the ones she loves and does not mind me posting. 

One thing I promise all of my models, that they will recieve a CD with all photos and that no pictures will be posted or pass around with out thier premission.  Well that is how I work anyway.
Jul 28 09 04:16 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Kari lee Peterson
Posts: 90
Kailua, Hawaii, US


Just to throw out a model's point of view-
... the shots that appeal to or improve a photographers portfolio are not always the same ones that are advantageous to a model. In a model's portfolio the technical merits are more or less afterthoughts- in a photographer's they are paramount. This makes perfect sense since your portfolio is meant to be representative of your mastery if your craft. It seems only fair that both party's have some say in the final editing process. Trade implies mutual benefit.
... why do we want unedited shots? 1) Some of us would like to practice our photo-shopping skills- not a criminal offense last time I checked. That said I never post any of my edits without getting the okay from the photog...unless of course they do not have the due dilligence to have me sign a release. 2) Everyone in here seems to be a competent if not a phenomenal photog/ photoshop wizard... you are the exceptions - not the rule. I've gotten some truly horrendous edits on what were decent shots...
...can we please refrain from the superiority complexes? You put a lot of time into your craft- so do many of the models. You spend hours editing- she spends hours at the gym. You spend money on equipment- she spends money on appearance and wardrobe. It takes two to tango...

as for the OP's situation... did you ask the model in question if she liked the shots or your edits? If the answer is yes- then you have more than fulfilled your part of the TF arrangement...if not perhaps ask her if she'd like to choose and image or two for you to edit- or you may discover that what she wants is a little extra editing. I have two scars on my stomach that I'm incredibly self conscious of- photogs don't always edit them out...see my point?

thats enough drivel for the evening....

much aloha!
Jul 28 09 04:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Margaret Hope
Posts: 840
Seattle, Washington, US


Kari lee Peterson wrote:
as for the OP's situation... did you ask the model in question if she liked the shots or your edits? If the answer is yes- then you have more than fulfilled your part of the TF arrangement...if not perhaps ask her if she'd like to choose and image or two for you to edit- or you may discover that what she wants is a little extra editing.

The model said that she really loved the photos. *shrugs*

Jul 28 09 05:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Margaret Hope
Posts: 840
Seattle, Washington, US


Kari lee Peterson wrote:
You spend hours editing- she spends hours at the gym.

Maybe its just me but most of the models I have worked don't go to the gym... good genes. I worked with this one model where every time I called her she was ordering a cheeseburger. Then after the shoot she asked me if I wanted to go to MCD's with her.

Kari lee Peterson wrote:
You spend money on equipment- she spends money on appearance and wardrobe. It takes two to tango...

Which costs more? Photography equipment or appearance and wardrobe?

You can always be thrifty when it comes to wardrobe and go to Goodwill. If you bought photography equipment at Goodwill wouldn't you wonder if there is something wrong with it?

Appearance... again good genes, personal hygiene and a healthy diet. Which everyone should have a healthy diet and take care of their personal hygiene.

Jul 28 09 05:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kari lee Peterson
Posts: 90
Kailua, Hawaii, US


Margaret Hope wrote:

Kari lee Peterson wrote:
You spend hours editing- she spends hours at the gym.

Maybe its just me but most of the models I have worked don't go to the gym... good genes. I worked with this one model where every time I called her she was ordering a cheeseburger. Then after the shoot she asked me if I wanted to go to MCD's with her.

True enough- some people are lucky to have almost inhuman metabolism- I didn't but my natural love of dance almost negates that fact lol!



Which costs more? Photography equipment or appearance and wardrobe?

You can always be thrifty when it comes to wardrobe and go to Goodwill. If you bought photography equipment at Goodwill wouldn't you wonder if there is something wrong with it?

Appearance... again good genes, personal hygiene and a healthy diet. Which everyone should have a healthy diet and take care of their personal hygiene.

You'd be amazed at how fast the costs can add up... as for the photography equipment at least there are plenty of arenas to earn income via your craft (i.e. weddings, stock, product...etc)- a model's got her looks to pay the bills and that's it.
Although if you want to talk really scary costs- lets discuss fine jewelry making- I damn near had an anuerism the other night placing my order for precious stone tongue

Jul 28 09 06:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Margaret Hope
Posts: 840
Seattle, Washington, US


Kari lee Peterson wrote:
You'd be amazed at how fast the costs can add up... as for the photography equipment at least there are plenty of arenas to earn income via your craft (i.e. weddings, stock, product...etc)- a model's got her looks to pay the bills and that's it.

True true ... but I don't make any money with my photography. Maybe someday.

Kari lee Peterson wrote:
Although if you want to talk really scary costs- lets discuss fine jewelry making- I damn near had an anuerism the other night placing my order for precious stone tongue

Fortunately I live by a really awesome antique jewelry boutique. The prices aren't scary. Have you tried shopping for antique jewelry? Usually those are not as spendy.

Jul 28 09 07:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kari lee Peterson
Posts: 90
Kailua, Hawaii, US


Margaret Hope wrote:

Kari lee Peterson wrote:
You'd be amazed at how fast the costs can add up... as for the photography equipment at least there are plenty of arenas to earn income via your craft (i.e. weddings, stock, product...etc)- a model's got her looks to pay the bills and that's it.

True true ... but I don't make any money with my photography. Maybe someday.


Fortunately I live by a really awesome antique jewelry boutique. The prices aren't scary. Have you tried shopping for antique jewelry? Usually those are not as spendy.

I do buy antiques from time to time but only for personal use... the stuff I like to design with in my commerical jewelry business falls more into the luxury catagory... since I have a resale license I am fortunate enough to be able to purchase inventory at wholesale rates- but lets put it this way - a strand of premium sky blue topaz starts at $400.00 ... and most discerning clientele expect more than topaz, multiple stone cuts, and different types of gem - and it all had better be premuim quality coupled with solid craftsmanship tongue
that said I love it smile

Jul 29 09 02:09 am  Link  Quote 
Model
The Wendy Variety
Posts: 371
Tempe, Arizona, US


Dannielle Levan wrote:
Just tell her you don't give out unedited pics.  End of story.  Sounds like a princess who is used to getting whatever she whines for.

+ OVER 9000!

Jul 29 09 02:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Barbie Austin
Posts: 484
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada


"I don't think I have a happy model. I refuse to give her all the photos taken at the scheduled TF shoot... I gave her 8 edited photos!... She tells me all the photographers she has worked with have given her edited and unedited photos. "

I understand as a model, how the unusable shots can be a helpful tool to learn what works and what doesn't. However, I have seen a photographer friend give ALL of the shots to a few different models only to see pics that no photographer would ever choose to post, on the model's Facebook or Mayhem account. Even worse, they give credit for the "throw away" shots to my friend. lol

I believe the job of the photographer is to understand lighting, poses, composition, photoshop if necessary etc. Some models know these things, some don't. That's why they pay me! smile

No way, for me, you receive however many images we agree upon. (10 -15 max) Not all, not ever and never RAW. Quality control! big_smile
Jul 29 09 02:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
P O T T S
Posts: 5,239
Lake City, Florida, US


I don tmind giving them all, but only in the contact sheet format. One of the models responded above that what we as photographers may want, might not be what they as a model want. I have no problem giving a contact sheets, digitally. The images are too small to be used for anything else, but this is a trade arrangement. We have to remember that. If you want to pay a model for their time, than pick the few images you want. But if you are trading your time, make it a fair trade, not just what you want as a photographer. If you were any good on the other side of the lens you could just set your self timer for every shot.
Jul 29 09 03:33 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LauraSinclair
Posts: 2
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom


Basically what they said.
I just can't seem to get my head around why she would be upset? You have saved her alot of trouble by retouching and selecting photos. If i were her i'd be over the moon!!
Jul 29 12 08:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SillyEddy
Posts: 2,246
Coventry, England, United Kingdom


I give out what I'm prepared to use myself. In practise, several photos per look.

Giving dodgy photos is not going to benefit anyone. Likewise, I have a portion in my agreement which lets me assess the quality of my work and hand out appropriate material.


It's unreasonable to give out all of the shots, especially unedited ones. Your name still belongs to them too - Why give out unfinished products?
Jul 29 12 08:27 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Heidi Heaven
Posts: 1
Baltimore, Maryland, US


Why would she even want the unedited photos unless she wanted to twist them. It's your work she should appreciate the photo's.
Nov 01 12 02:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Michael Walker
Posts: 11,957
Costa Mesa, California, US


Margaret Hope wrote:
Well I feel stupid. I didn't realize you have to agree on an actual number of photos up front.

It's how some people determine worth...1 great images is not enough..they need 10. I don't specify up front how many EXCEPT that I do state that I never give out unedited images unless it's just to chose from..and in that case I add a usage agreement that states these are never to be publicly posted. Most times I just clean up all the best ones and go from there. If the llama has the time to review them on the computer or iPad after the shoot they can make their choices known to me then. Otherwise, I clean up everything I like (or in the case of people I shoot more often, ones i think they will like) and send those. Of course with me they get prints too if they want them.

PS..a great shot for MY book may not be a great one for theirs. This is especially true if they wanted clothed shots in return for the nudes so I do they and let them see many proofs to chose from.

Nov 01 12 02:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotoVRG
Posts: 33
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Something similar happened to me at one point with this one model. The shoot went well. Days later I sent her some edited photos for her to see, only to find her demanding I send her unedited photos "as they came out from the camera", and also wanted to have all of them, not just a few.

I didn't agree to her terms. I spent about a month thinking about what to do and what was fair to her (and me). In the end I partially yielded and gave her all the photos I had edited and all remaining unedited photos that were worth something.

She didn't like that either- she just stopped talking to me. Last time I checked she had removed credit from my photos, cropped the watermark out, re-edited them and a few other upsetting things.

I never gave her the RAW files though smile

In the end, I just decided to give up dealing with her. I cannot deal with someone who is going to give me problems like that. I won't work with her again, unless she paid me a significant amount for the trouble.

I realized the problem could have been minimized by having a signed agreement, which is what I started doing thereafter with substantially better results.

As a side note, I have found that many decide to edit the photos. If it is a model that I like working with, I just look the other way. I just make sure that in the agreement we set things straight about what is expected from the other.
Nov 01 12 03:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,336
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


TF - Time For (Images)

It does not indicate how many images will be provided as compensation, just as "pay" does not indicate how much money will be provided.  The amount needs to be indicated separately. (as does usage and whether or not they are edited)

Accepting a TF shoot without asking how many images you will receive is like accepting a paid job without asking how much pay you will receive.   If she cared, then she should have asked.
Nov 01 12 03:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 4,585
Jacksonville, Florida, US


I normally give 10-20 edited images on CD, with copyright logo (small).....I know it only helps minimally !  and I try to get what I want in a way of theme or style, and also ask the model what they want to see in their portfolio to give them a few shots to fit their needs........TF is trade for services I get the models talent (hopefully), and they/ we get some awesome images to use in our portfolios.
Nov 01 12 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotoVRG
Posts: 33
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Yeah... it is supposed to be a win/win situation. I like when it leads to more work down the road.
Nov 01 12 07:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


I specify that I will supply a minimum of three finished images per shoot (not per look), although I usually end up retouching a few more than this. If the model wants more she can choose as many as she likes from my selects and have them retouched by a 3rd party retoucher approved by me at her own cost.

You've already given her 8 images which is plenty IMHO. If you have more selects you wouldn't mind people seeing then you could offer her the option I mention above, but I don't think most people would blame you if you didn't.




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com
Nov 01 12 07:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotoVRG
Posts: 33
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Heidi Heaven wrote:
Why would she even want the unedited photos unless she wanted to twist them. It's your work she should appreciate the photo's.

Agree 100%

Nov 01 12 07:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


Enrapture Photography wrote:
How many is "a few"?  You both screwed up by not stating a number up front.
Margaret Hope wrote:
Well I feel stupid. I didn't realize you have to agree on an actual number of photos up front.

I promise five of their choice and however many more interest me.

Nov 01 12 08:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


Kari lee Peterson wrote:
...can we please refrain from the superiority complexes? You put a lot of time into your craft- so do many of the llamas. You spend hours editing- she spends hours at the gym. You spend money on equipment- she spends money on appearance and wardrobe. It takes two to tango...

I've found that, in general, the really talented and dedicated llamas aren't the ones demanding "all the pictures" or even 10-20.  They want one or two they can use in their port, unless there is a specific use in mind that requires a lot more.

Nov 01 12 08:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MB Jen B
Posts: 2,833
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


Margaret Hope wrote:
....So... what is your definition of a TF shoot?

Sometimes it is even trade for nothing more than experience because it was an experimental test shoot and no shots worked or...worse...the photographer gave zilch.
Jen

Nov 02 12 12:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Julian W I L D E
Posts: 1,798
Los Angeles, California, US


What's a TF shoot???  ;-)
Nov 02 12 12:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,065
Orlando, Florida, US


Margaret Hope wrote:

Maybe its just me but most of the models I have worked don't go to the gym... good genes. I worked with this one model where every time I called her she was ordering a cheeseburger. Then after the shoot she asked me if I wanted to go to MCD's with her.


Which costs more? Photography equipment or appearance and wardrobe?

You can always be thrifty when it comes to wardrobe and go to Goodwill. If you bought photography equipment at Goodwill wouldn't you wonder if there is something wrong with it?

Appearance... again good genes, personal hygiene and a healthy diet. Which everyone should have a healthy diet and take care of their personal hygiene.

Please.... Don't have this attitude.

You can also be thrifty and shoot using a yard sale 35mm and some Tri-X.

You CHOOSE to spend a lot of money on equipment, as a model would CHOOSE to own designer labels and shoes. Also, expensive skin and hair care products.

That argument is moot.

Nov 02 12 12:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


TF = no money changes hands and the model's 'payment' is in the form of images.

How many, how big, how 'retouched', what format and in what time-frame they'll be delivered and by what means, should all be spelled-out in words of one syllable before the shoot takes place.
Preferably also written down in your usage agreement, which she should be presented with a week before the shoot so she can read-through it (not that they ever do) and let you know if she has any queries...

And even then you might find you're halfway through the shoot when the model mentions she's going to try editing them herself as she 'just got Photoshop'...
Nov 02 12 02:30 am  Link  Quote 
Model
V Laroche
Posts: 2,745
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


TF whatever we discussed in detail beforehand. RIGHT????
Nov 02 12 02:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
V Laroche
Posts: 2,745
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
You can also be thrifty and shoot using a yard sale 35mm and some Tri-X.

Hey, you can do some great stuff with some older glass and decent film. I'd rather shoot with somebody with a Goodwill Minolta who knows what they're doing over some tool who just dropped $3k on a digital and thinks that makes him "pro."

But I mean, you know that already.

Nov 02 12 02:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art Provocative
Posts: 222
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


if she wants every image on CD then she clearly has zero idea what she's talking about. Step up and take control of the situation by telling her how it works, no exceptions.

Even the most amazing shoots only have a few frames that ever see the light of day.
Nov 02 12 02:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Glenn Hall - Fine Art
Posts: 431
Townsville, Queensland, Australia


J T Smith wrote:
Get the agreement communicated up front before you work together. Stop assuming.

+1

Nov 02 12 02:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GM Photography
Posts: 6,037
Olympia, Washington, US


Heidi Heaven wrote:
Why would she even want the unedited photos unless she wanted to twist them. It's your work she should appreciate the photo's.

Why would you reply to a 3 year old thread?  I'm sure the OP has worked this out by now.

Nov 02 12 05:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4,650
Houston, Texas, US


It doesn't really matter what others do.  It's what you feel is fair for you. The only thing you need to do, is either add the conditions of the TF to your release OR have an additional form that specifically spells out YOUR conditions and the participant's expectations for future TFP work..

This stuff happens..... Just chalk it up to a learning experience.
Hopefully, others learn from it too..
Nov 02 12 05:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rachael-emily
Posts: 100
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


I used to go through photos with the model after shooting to decide which images to edit.  It took FOREVER..!!  I just don't have the time or inclination to do that anymore. 

I'll choose my 5 favourites and edit those.  Quality over quantity.  Besides, does anyone really want more than 3-4 images from the same shoot in their portfolio?
Nov 02 12 06:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPierce Photography
Posts: 19,566
Amherst, Massachusetts, US


I tell everyone up front, no matter what the shoot is (paid or unpaid) I give anywhere from 5-15 photos, through email, small.websized first. If they want something bigger, let me know which ones and i'll get to work on those.

I have had models demand all unretouched pics from the shoot before as well. We never ended up working together as we couldn't come to an agreement.
Nov 02 12 06:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
the lonely photographer
Posts: 1,847
Beverly Hills, California, US


I've always given my TF models a proof sheet  of all the shots   including the blinkees, gawks, deer caught in the headlight looks.  We all have a big laugh, sometimes even print one up to laugh over and remind us not to take things so seriously. I give  them 5-10  best looks they like, although sometimes you wonder about their taste in  looks.  Who cares? I have plenty of  good stuff , I don't need to hound the models because they chose an ugly pic. That's the advantage to being a GWC,  You don't don't have much of an ego to get bruised over, and always worrying about  things you got no control over.
Nov 04 12 08:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,174
Salem, Oregon, US


the model should understand that each photographer does it differently. if she has specific requirements she should discuss that upfront.

i try to give 2 finished per hour of shoot time. on trade shoots i provide a proofing CD/gallery/dropbox.

on my last shoot we shot for several hours and the model only requested two for her portfolio. it really varies.

if you keep running into this then maybe you should change your policy or let the models know in advance how you do it.
Nov 04 12 08:58 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
MainePaintah
Posts: 1,667
Saco, Maine, US


What is my definition of a TF shoot?

I am an artist, so my TF shoots are a little different!

I am a lousy photographer, so no model in their right mind would want photos from me in the first place. All of my Photoshop takes place in my head. In fact one sentence on my profile page states:

"I usually pay models and only photograph for reference photos to be used later in my studio for my Pastel paintings, therefore no photographs are ever given out if I hire you".

When I TF with a model, I trade their modeling time for a pastel painting of them. This is the way it works when the model is just posing for reference photos.

Sometimes I have the model pose for the first hour so I can draw them , then they pose for reference photos for the rest of the agreed upon time. When that happens, I also give the model a drawing or two besides the agreed upon pastel painting.

All of the above is talked about and agreed upon BEFORE the model ever comes over my studio!

TWICE, I have had models who have agreed upon everything stated above, call me the day before the TF shoot, and DEMAND from me every reference photo when we  are done with the photoshoot.

Needless to say, those TF photosoots never happened
Nov 04 12 09:02 am  Link  Quote 
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