I am new to MM and the main thing I am noticing is that everyone is thrown into one big pile. Shouldn't we separate Professionals from amatures and digital artists from photographers? There is a whole list of gatekeepers deciding who should be here. Why not go one step further and separate things up a bit. Im not saying one should be considered better than the other but lets face it professionals put alot more time and education and energy into it and rely on their work for their living. They really should be promoted in a separate area. Also, digital artists here have such unique and wonderful work they shoud have their own area. There are individuals here who have a real shot at success and ones that clearly dont, no offence intended. I obviously cant speak for everyone but I personally dont want to comb through a hundred thousand amatures when I am looking at what professionals are doing and what successful work is made of.
How do we separate? A professional gets paid.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: Thank you for your inteligent response to my thread......
Don't be so hard on Laurence. He merely paraphrased your bio.
As to your question, Yes, actually there does need to be one big pile. You'll sort out soon enough those with listening to. Throwing that responsibility to the Gatekeepers or Mayhemic Management has it's own set of problems . . . big ones.
I like this idea. My own suggestion is to segregate those time-wasting amateurs (or "Ammy's" as we call them) to their own forum, and give them separate water fountains as well. During any meetups or group shoots, we can make little armbands they can wear so we know to shun them and their unprofessional kind.
I don't how that could be done on a site as massive as MM. It wasn't
designed that way. The ideal is were all equal as members. Doing as you
suggest might tilt that. Who would determine someones worth?
A now former member owned a commercial agency in NY and has a great book
on the industry. His views were valued because he knew his stuff but he
could also prove his claims. Would someone claiming to be a pro have to
provide a W2 with his/her earnings and or a business license.
Some of the hobbyists on MM are much better then the working pros.
They have the time to fine tune everything they do and yet they don't
make a living with their work. Doing as you say might create a elite like status
on MM and frankly we have enough crap with the no law school lawyers
and know it all goofs like me.
Clearly. What follows is a good example of why newbs should spend some time (more than just a couple weeks) reading the forums and taking in the community before they post.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: and the main thing I am noticing is that everyone is thrown into one big pile. Shouldn't we separate Professionals from amatures and digital artists from photographers?
Well, there's already different profile types to differentiate. There are also separate forum areas for separate needs: retouching, modeling, photography, and styling.
On top of that, some of the amateurs here take as good of shots as some of the professionals. Heck, some of them do it better. And while we're at it, some of the amateur models here have gotten paid jobs right away.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: There is a whole list of gatekeepers deciding who should be here. Why not go one step further and separate things up a bit.
Gatekeepers simply make sure that, at the time of application, a profile follows a few specific guidelines. I used to be one... it's pretty time-consuming and thankless work.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: Im not saying one should be considered better than the other but lets face it professionals put alot more time and education and energy into it and rely on their work for their living.
So it's just the professionals that spend time and money on educating themselves? Really? That's a load of horseshit.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: They really should be promoted in a separate area. Also, digital artists here have such unique and wonderful work they shoud have their own area.
People who pay money get promoted in special areas. To have someone sit and evaluate who's actually a professional (by your standards) and then have those folks get promoted would be a stupid waste of time and resources.
Digital artists have the retouching forum, which they requested, as well as the "photoshop wizard" profile type.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: There are individuals here who have a real shot at success and ones that clearly dont, no offence intended.
And there are individuals here who have defied the critics and become successful, despite seemingly having tons against them. Who are you to decide who's professional, who's going to be a success, and who deserves to be here?
Kevin Silverstone wrote: I obviously cant speak for everyone but I personally dont want to comb through a hundred thousand amatures when I am looking at what professionals are doing and what successful work is made of.
So, if you don't want to comb through all these amateurs the leave MM and only hire models from agencies. Problem solved.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: How do we separate? A professional gets paid.
Really? That's it? There's no way a professional acts, communicates, or presents themselves?
I'd rather work with an amateur who presents himself professionally, communicates well, and acts like a decent human being than a jackass who can't take a picture to save his life, belches in my face while leering at me and attempting to grab my tits, and can't communicate worth a damn, but calls himself a professional because he's been paid to shoot senior portraits before.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: Does everyone have to be in a big pile? I am new to MM and the main thing I am noticing is that everyone is thrown into one big pile. Shouldn't we separate Professionals from amatures and digital artists from photographers? There is a whole list of gatekeepers deciding who should be here. Why not go one step further and separate things up a bit. Im not saying one should be considered better than the other but lets face it professionals put alot more time and education and energy into it and rely on their work for their living. They really should be promoted in a separate area. Also, digital artists here have such unique and wonderful work they shoud have their own area. There are individuals here who have a real shot at success and ones that clearly dont, no offence intended. I obviously cant speak for everyone but I personally dont want to comb through a hundred thousand amatures when I am looking at what professionals are doing and what successful work is made of.
How do we separate? A professional gets paid.
Yes, we all have to be in one big pile. That's how it works around here.
You get sorted out here by the quality of your work, not by pay. Every portfolio rises or falls on its own merits.
Besides, pay is such an arbitrary divider. How much pay? And for what kind of photography work?
There are amateurs at MM that do stunning work. Much better work, in fact, than the local mall photographers that grind out portrait after portrait in 15-20 minute increments. By definition (yours), they are getting paid so they are professionals.
I bet most models choose a photographer at MM based on the quality of the portfolio and/or whether or not the photographer can pay her/his rates. I doubt that many of them care whether or not the photographer is a paid professional.
I'm an amature now as photography is not my source of income. I have also been a published professional in the past, I would not mind going back in at a point in the future, so which "corral" am I to be directed to?
Studio-B wrote: I bet most models choose a photographer at MM based on the quality of the portfolio and/or whether or not the photographer can pay her/his rates. I doubt that many of them care whether or not the photographer is a paid professional.
When I look at working with a photographer the first thing I look at is quality of work. If the photographer has work that will clearly benefit me, I'll even consider working trade :gasp: Past that, I look at whether or not they have work that's something I'm interested in, and whether or not they're willing to pay my rates. How someone makes their living is, generally, unimportant to me.
It's worth noting that my favorite photographers--the ones I have long-term professional relationships with and shoot with time and time again--all have professions that aren't photography. They're all hobbyists.
Rachel Jay's whole post is right on target, and this part is too priceless not to quote.
Rachel Jay wrote: I'd rather work with an amateur who presents himself professionally, communicates well, and acts like a decent human being than a jackass who can't take a picture to save his life, belches in my face while leering at me and attempting to grab my tits, and can't communicate worth a damn, but calls himself a professional because he's been paid to shoot senior portraits before.
If you focus on what other people are doing on Model Mayhem, yes you'll blend in. That's why don't, I focus on my work..
I don't know if I stand out, but business is good and that's all that matters..
And yes, you blend in... Even if you say professional or amateur. It does not matter.
I never say "Professional Photographer" Its like saying heavy duty batteries which don't mean jack.
Lets say there is a "professional group"
There would still be an argument on why this or that person is in...
Create your own distinction rather than wearing a label or having some one create one for you.
Yup, I'm in the same group as you.
and I will not saying anything from there...........
Yes its a big pile, the nature of messaging boards makes it inevitable that it works that way. now at least we have people that have to upload original work just to get an account here. that weeds out the total armatures. so why do not want to mix in the "big pile" of people here. just cause you don't like their work for some reason? you think they are not as "professional" as you?
Its everyone combined opinion on topics that makes this place worth while. i certainly dont agree with everyone here. nor do other people with me.
WHY are you so obsessed with your opinion of someones professionalism quantify there existence here? Sounds to me like you just another self absorbed ass that cant deal with anyone's opinion but your self's.
Wow im so glad you joined up...so now i know how a professional thinks and i can now pattern my life style around you.
Wow what a fast response....How artistic of me to create such incredible emotion.... I certainly didnt mean offence but I suppose that never means none will be taken. Perhaps I am too new...probebly in fact.
The simple difference between profesional and amature by definition is, Pros get paid. This doesnt by any means say that they are better but by the same token the mass of professionals spend more time at it and tend to lead the industry. Am I wrong? Its ok to tell me I can take it. just because there is more separation doesnt mean amatures will not get seen. Everyone loves to look for the raw talent and newcomers. I think some people are looking to work with pros and some with amatures and separation will just make their search less time consumming. That is all. There are amatures out there with incredible talent no question. The reality is pro's tend to be more serious as their livlihoods depend on it. I am not sugesting separation based on skill level and if I came accross that way my apologies. Who can dictate art. Big pile was meant in the nicest way. Big piles can be fun.....
Kevin Silverstone wrote: I am new to MM and the main thing I am noticing is that everyone is thrown into one big pile. Shouldn't we separate Professionals from amatures and digital artists from photographers? There is a whole list of gatekeepers deciding who should be here. Why not go one step further and separate things up a bit. Im not saying one should be considered better than the other but lets face it professionals put alot more time and education and energy into it and rely on their work for their living. They really should be promoted in a separate area. Also, digital artists here have such unique and wonderful work they shoud have their own area. There are individuals here who have a real shot at success and ones that clearly dont, no offence intended. I obviously cant speak for everyone but I personally dont want to comb through a hundred thousand amatures when I am looking at what professionals are doing and what successful work is made of.
How do we separate? A professional gets paid.
There's this thing, it's called our own judgment, use yours to your own advantage,
and everyone else will use theirs to their own advantage. Not too difficult, right?!?
Wow – interesting way to introduce yourself to the community – welcome.
What you suggesting is a cast system where those that are talented are grouped together and those that are, let’s say "challenged" are not.
Here is the problem with this suggestion
- Who decides the definition of pro – or talented? You? Me? Some elected MM person
- What is the criteria for being labeled as such - revenue generated by the individual, popular vote, years of experience, number of shows in a gallery – your mom told said were? Or your wife said you were?
- What if I decide and put you in the “B team” bucket – are you going to stay around, contribute, feel valued, feel compelled to learn and continue your craft/art?
- How is one promoted from the lesser ranks to being one that is now anointed?
-
I see many talented pros as well as amateurs/hobbyists - what about the pro that has less talent than the highly skilled amateur? Is there a special place for them. Maybe a "untalented pro"
I am confused by your (very long) diatribe in your profile. The autocratic tone notwithstanding, are you a pro or an amateur/hobbyist yourself? Your work isn’t bad at all. It is obvious how you feel abut it – but where does this place you in the cast system?
The same tone in your profile comes out in your question. This is what I hear when I read your question…
…- some of us are clearly more talented than others. So how can we separate the riff-raff from those of us who are enlightened…
Apparently you feel there is some need for a ghetto side of MM where we will relegate the amateurs, GWC’s, and those lesser beings. (I know – you said no offence – but come on, own your own statement – it’s clearly masking this sentiment)
The diversity here is what makes the community an interesting and valued place where anyone can learn, grow, network. In essence – it defines the community. Frankly if this were a group of snotty holier-that-thou photogs I think the community would crumble. Personally – doesn’t sound like a community I would be part of.
Here is the bottom line – there are some really great people here, some people that will frustrate you. Those that are highly reliable, highly talented. There are flakes (models and photogs) that will blow off a commitment minutes before your shoot. And, those (actually this is everyone - unless there is someone out there done evolving) in various stages of their personal growth. Ironic - just like "real life" - Maybe consider that MM is just part of real life.
I welcome you to the community, encourage you to spend time in the forums and get the vibe on the community. It is a valuable place regardless where one may place themselves (or you place them) on the evolutionary ladder of talent. I wish you success in your own personal growth.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: Wow what a fast response....How artistic of me to create such incredible emotion.... I certainly didnt mean offence but I suppose that never means none will be taken. Perhaps I am too new...probebly in fact.
The simple difference between profesional and amature by definition is, Pros get paid. This doesnt by any means say that they are better but by the same token the mass of professionals spend more time at it and tend to lead the industry. Am I wrong? Its ok to tell me I can take it. just because there is more separation doesnt mean amatures will not get seen. Everyone loves to look for the raw talent and newcomers. I think some people are looking to work with pros and some with amatures and separation will just make their search less time consumming. That is all. There are amatures out there with incredible talent no question. The reality is pro's tend to be more serious as their livlihoods depend on it. I am not sugesting separation based on skill level and if I came accross that way my apologies. Who can dictate art. Big pile was meant in the nicest way. Big piles can be fun.....
So step up to the plate in your big boy pants and say which
side of the fence you're on, amateur or professional.
Don't expect anything but frustration and contempt here and you'll never be disappointed. Expect for the "pro" models to not show up on time and then demand 25 fully retouched files prior to leaving the shoot. Expect for those who can't read or understand light to tell you what's wrong with your photos. Expect that everyone is hiding behind their computer screen and will say things they normally wouldn't say to you in person.
Learn and grow, use the resources as best you can. Don't be surprised if you want to call it quits within a month, maybe sooner. Don't be shocked that folks are giving pic compliments like "Awesome shot" to pics that are total shit. It's kind of like a fantasy world where people can come and feel a part of a "professional community", even if they will never, ever make a dime from it.
As long as they rock in their own minds, it's all good......Enjoy the mayhem!
Kevin Silverstone wrote: A professional gets paid.
Prostitution is the oldest profession..
Would you marry one?
No.
Would a model shoot with a photographer that gets paid (professional?)
No, not if there work sucks..
Kevin Silverstone wrote: Wow what a fast response....How artistic of me to create such incredible emotion.... I certainly didnt mean offence but I suppose that never means none will be taken. Perhaps I am too new...probebly in fact.
The simple difference between profesional and amature by definition is, Pros get paid. This doesnt by any means say that they are better but by the same token the mass of professionals spend more time at it and tend to lead the industry. Am I wrong? Its ok to tell me I can take it. just because there is more separation doesnt mean amatures will not get seen. Everyone loves to look for the raw talent and newcomers. I think some people are looking to work with pros and some with amatures and separation will just make their search less time consumming. That is all. There are amatures out there with incredible talent no question. The reality is pro's tend to be more serious as their livlihoods depend on it. I am not sugesting separation based on skill level and if I came accross that way my apologies. Who can dictate art. Big pile was meant in the nicest way. Big piles can be fun.....
I don't get paid. I like to suggest "donations". I learned that from paid escorts on Craiglist.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: Wow what a fast response....How artistic of me to create such incredible emotion.... I certainly didnt mean offence but I suppose that never means none will be taken. Perhaps I am too new...probebly in fact.
The simple difference between profesional and amature by definition is, Pros get paid. This doesnt by any means say that they are better but by the same token the mass of professionals spend more time at it and tend to lead the industry. Am I wrong? Its ok to tell me I can take it. just because there is more separation doesnt mean amatures will not get seen. Everyone loves to look for the raw talent and newcomers. I think some people are looking to work with pros and some with amatures and separation will just make their search less time consumming. That is all. There are amatures out there with incredible talent no question. The reality is pro's tend to be more serious as their livlihoods depend on it. I am not sugesting separation based on skill level and if I came accross that way my apologies. Who can dictate art. Big pile was meant in the nicest way. Big piles can be fun.....
Miss Anthrope 1007 wrote: So step up to the plate in your big boy pants and say which side of the fence you're on, amateur or professional.
hey, he doesn't get to decide....the volunteer gatekeepers should decide for him...
Kevin Silverstone wrote: ..The reality is pro's tend to be more serious as their livlihoods depend on it...
Precious Metal wrote: WOW.. you need to get out more
Yea, just a little.
One of these days I'm going to take the time to document all the time and money I spend preparing for a single shoot, including gathering ideas, practicing poses/expressions, and packing all my crap up.
But... wait. Sometimes I get paid jobs. So I guess I'm a professional, and not just a mere hobbyist who models in addition to her dayjob.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: Wow what a fast response....How artistic of me to create such incredible emotion.... I certainly didnt mean offence but I suppose that never means none will be taken. Perhaps I am too new...probebly in fact.
The simple difference between profesional and amature by definition is, Pros get paid. This doesnt by any means say that they are better but by the same token the mass of professionals spend more time at it and tend to lead the industry. Am I wrong? Its ok to tell me I can take it. just because there is more separation doesnt mean amatures will not get seen. Everyone loves to look for the raw talent and newcomers. I think some people are looking to work with pros and some with amatures and separation will just make their search less time consumming. That is all. There are amatures out there with incredible talent no question. The reality is pro's tend to be more serious as their livlihoods depend on it. I am not sugesting separation based on skill level and if I came accross that way my apologies. Who can dictate art. Big pile was meant in the nicest way. Big piles can be fun.....
hey, he doesn't get to decide....the volunteer gatekeepers should decide for him...
Wow isnt this a wonderful way to learn and so fast and free. And that is what it is all about.
These volenteer gatekeepers decide everyday who should be here and who should not. Thousands get denied so it seems they are already been given the great power havent they.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: ..The reality is pro's tend to be more serious as their livlihoods depend on it...
Yea, just a little.
One of these days I'm going to take the time to document all the time and money I spend preparing for a single shoot, including gathering ideas, practicing poses/expressions, and packing all my crap up.
But... wait. Sometimes I get paid jobs. So I guess I'm a professional, and not just a mere hobbyist who models in addition to her dayjob.
You're a pro - I just declared it. Well- Let's not have me over step here. Since we haven't established a ruling party we will need a second for the motion to carry and place Rachel in the Pro (Haves) list.
Kevin Silverstone wrote: These volenteer gatekeepers decide everyday who should be here and who should not. Thousands get denied so it seems they are already been given the great power havent they.
The GK's don't all agree on who should get in and who should be denied. A certain percentage of "yes" votes gets the member in, and while there are guidelines, votes all boil down to the individual's own opinion of the work shown and the profile as written. It's also worth noting that not every GK spends the same amount of time working the approval process, so by default some of the more active GKs have higher percentages of approvals (or denials).
Are you proposing that the same system be applied to whether or not someone should be considered a professional as well? If so, would there be continual evaluation based on forum participation?
) Oh I just love it when a newbies first post is from atop a tall soapbox... So glad I didn't make that mistake. Newbie Survival Guide should be mandatory reading before handing out keys to the forum.
That's a load of horseshit.
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) Oh I just love it when a newbies first post is from atop a tall soapbox... So glad I didn't make that mistake. Newbie Survival Guide should be mandatory reading before handing out keys to the forum.