A client (small agency owner) has owed me money since February, has paid over half of the invoice, but still owes me around $10K. He hasn't sent a check in over two months, saying he's waiting to get paid from other projects so he can pay me. We touch base through email every two weeks or so and he's (for the most part) cordial and very descriptive about his efforts to pay me. He swears he wants to make good on this debt owed to me.
Obviously I will never work with this guy again. I've spoken to the client (that works for the product we were shooting for and who I've worked with for years) and she told me this guy was paid days after our shoot was finished. They had a falling out and apparently he said some horrible things to her. The guy that owes me money hasn't denied this and has stated that this money was embezzled by his employee (art director) that hired me.
So my question is: at what point do I seek legal action or do I just chalk it up to the economy and learn from it? I'd say there is a 50% chance I'll get paid in the next year. I don't really want to pay some lawyer half of what's owed me to try and collect this debt. That said, the legal statute for the state this guy lives in gives me six years to collect on a written contract, from the date of the last payment, before the debt is erased and I can no longer take him to court.
Has anyone had similar problems with the economy the way it is and, if so, what did you do about it? From my understanding the sum owed me is larger than small claims court allows, so it would involve going through 'real' court and I would probably need a lawyer instead of doing it myself.
Your best bet is to consult a local attorney. He will be in a better position to advise you of your options than anyone here can do for you. The initial consultation is usually free
I'd have the client provide you with a written statement (which amounts to an IOU) about how much he still owes you. Ask him, in the same note, to provide an "end date" by which time he feels he can pay it, even if that date is a year or two out.
By doing so, you are "renewing" the debt - his admission of the debt to you - and that should reinforce your ability to collect on this. Even if he only emails you, it's collectible.
I wouldn't take any additional steps right now regarding collection action or litigation. He's at least admitting the debt, and making an effort to chip away at it. I'd continue to keep the pressure on him, and hope you'll see payment eventually. If you need to do more, you'll be better documented when you do.
BlueDancer Digital wrote: I'd have the client provide you with a written statement (which amounts to an IOU) about how much he still owes you. Ask him, in the same note, to provide an "end date" by which time he feels he can pay it, even if that date is a year or two out.
By doing so, you are "renewing" the debt - his admission of the debt to you - and that should reinforce your ability to collect on this. Even if he only emails you, it's collectible.
I wouldn't take any additional steps right now regarding collection action or litigation. He's at least admitting the debt, and making an effort to chip away at it. I'd continue to keep the pressure on him, and hope you'll see payment eventually. If you need to do more, you'll be better documented when you do.
I've had a similar experience before and it sounds like you've given him a reasonable amount of time to pay and he hasn't. I would definitely pursue legal action - and let him know that that is your intent before you actually go down to the courts and get everything arranged (usually the threat in itself is enough to let them know that you are serious and will not just back down). If he fails to pay or respond within a week I would follow through.
I think you have to consider a few things before deciding to go to small claims or a civil suit such as how much a lawyer would cost vs the maximum amount you can sue for in your state/province.
You also need to consider that many times when a lawyer gets involved the case is solved in mediation before it even reaches the court (which I would think that you have a pretty good chance of getting at least 80% of your remaining money before it reaches the inside of a courtroom so long as you have a contract/email/anything that would prove that he without a doubt owes you this money.
You also have to consider the possibility that the deadbeat doesn't pay within the timeline allotted it becomes a huge pain in the ass to get your money whether you have the judgment for you or not. A lawyer on the other hand is able to help you with this.
All in all, I think you should go visit a lawyer for a consultation and see how much they will charge to take your case.
A couple of tactics that usually have worked for me.
1. Tell the guy that you understand he cannot pay you since his client has not paid him. In order to help him out, you are going to call the end client two days hence. Since the designer will not want to be embarrassed by having you call the end client, a check will arrive.
2. Tell the guy the since non payment violates the license of using the image, you will be suing not only for non payment but for copyright violation. Tell him that his end client will also be named in this suite. Again, embarrassment will help you out.
3. If there is no end client, show up with a bunch of little kids with candy, hang out in his office until a check is forthcoming.
It seems many post the same "hire a lawyer" response to almost every legal question -- and I'm guessing most of those people HAVE NEVER DONE IT.
The OP is right, you can spend far more than $10k trying to collect this debt if you hire a lawyer... and you may STILL never collect because judgement COLLECTION is yet another story.
That's why Judge Judy is a good option for some -- the "judgement" is awarded from a $5000 pool, and the remaining money between judgement and $5k is evenly split.
You should find out the Small Claims limit in your state... it's $5,000 in most, but you might get lucky if it's more.
Note to others -- never allow a debt exceed the small claims limit in your state, because that's where things get ugly.
This is why I will rarely shoot without being paid in full before, or at the time of the shoot. I know its an uncommon business practice, and some of my corporate clients bitch about it, but its a rule a firmly stand by. I refuse to chase clients for money owed weeks and months after a shoot.
A client (small agency owner) has owed me money since February, has paid over half of the invoice, but still owes me around $10K. He hasn't sent a check in over two months, saying he's waiting to get paid from other projects so he can pay me. We touch base through email every two weeks or so and he's (for the most part) cordial and very descriptive about his efforts to pay me. He swears he wants to make good on this debt owed to me.
Obviously I will never work with this guy again. I've spoken to the client (that works for the product we were shooting for and who I've worked with for years) and she told me this jerk was paid days after our shoot was finished. They had a falling out and apparently he said some horrible things to her. The guy that owes me money hasn't denied this and has stated that this money was embezzled by his employee (art director) that hired me.
So my question is: at what point do I seek legal action or do I just chalk it up to the economy and learn from it? I'd say there is a 50% chance I'll get paid in the next year. I don't really want to pay some lawyer half of what's owed me to try and collect this debt. That said, the legal statute for the state this guy lives in gives me six years to collect on a written contract, from the date of the last payment, before the debt is erased and I can no longer take him to court.
Has anyone had similar problems with the economy the way it is and, if so, what did you do about it? From my understanding the sum owed me is larger than small claims court allows, so it would involve going through 'real' court and I would probably need a lawyer instead of doing it myself.
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For more then $2000, I would take his ass to court. For $10,000. I know of a few x-Black ops guys who owe me favors...
Web Inceptions wrote: It seems many post the same "hire a lawyer" response to almost every legal question -- and I'm guessing most of those people HAVE NEVER DONE IT.
The OP is right, you can spend far more than $10k trying to collect this debt if you hire a lawyer... and you may STILL never collect because judgement COLLECTION is yet another story.
That's why Judge Judy is a good option for some -- the "judgement" is awarded from a $5000 pool, and the remaining money between judgement and $5k is evenly split.
You should find out the Small Claims limit in your state... it's $5,000 in most, but you might get lucky if it's more.
Note to others -- never allow a debt exceed the small claims limit in your state, because that's where things get ugly.
Good point, but collection is even more of a pain if you go through small claims - if you win your case and they still fail to pay it equates to more $ spent on court and at least another (if not more) court dates. At least that is the case here in Canada, I don't know too too much about the American legal system
Zave Smith wrote: A couple of tactics that usually have worked for me.
3. If there is no end client, show up with a bunch of little kids with candy, hang out in his office until a check is forthcoming.
my ex-wife actually did this once to a client of hers. She got a check for half the amount owing after an hour on his expensive leather sofas (DONT FORGET TO BRING MILK AND STICKY GRAPE SODAS) and postdated checks for the remainder. All three checks cleared. I'd offer to loan you my kids since they appear to have been effective but they are a teeny tiny bit older now
As for the rest, consulting with a lawyer in your jurisdiction is a plan. Before doing any more paper with debtor.dude that might or might not be advantageous to you, for this amount of money go for a consult. If the lawyer says 'its time' then go for it. If the laywer says "do this first" then...
In some instances trying to get someone to re-admit to a debt is kinda/sorta like accepting the possibility that the debt does not exist or is somehow less than you thought. Or it might be that a post-dated check would best serve (depends on the jurisdiction and banking laws and the phase of the moon). Why risk doing something weak when a lawyer will be able to tell you what the best move is?
Kyle Hood wrote: ... Obviously I will never work with this guy again. I've spoken to the client (that works for the product we were shooting for and who I've worked with for years) and she told me this jerk was paid days after our shoot was finished. They had a falling out and apparently he said some horrible things to her.
Normally I would agree with the posters who counsel patience and working with him. But this guy is lying about being paid, and he is alienating his customers. How much longer is he going to be in business? And you don't have to worry about alienating him since you aren't going to work with him again. On this one, nail him soonest.
Have your attorney draft up a letter that says if it's not paid you will take him to court. Sometimes that's all it takes, people are afraid of lawsuits.
One more thing.. if you're worried about spending half of what he owes you on a lawyer and a year of your time, I'd settle for the $5,000 and take him to small claims. It costs less than $50 to file in most states and the trial will happen within a few months. $5,000 is better than nothing.
In my honest opinion 2 months is not a very big deal considering how large the amount is. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt, especialy considering the economy and ask him to pay small sums bi-weekly to show good faith effort on his part. If he refuses or doesn't pay in ful within the next 4 months, take legal action!
DVine Studio wrote: Have your attorney draft up a letter that says if it's not paid you will take him to court. Sometimes that's all it takes, people are afraid of lawsuits.
Zave Smith wrote: A couple of tactics that usually have worked for me.
1. Tell the guy that you understand he cannot pay you since his client has not paid him. In order to help him out, you are going to call the end client two days hence. Since the designer will not want to be embarrassed by having you call the end client, a check will arrive.
2. Tell the guy the since non payment violates the license of using the image, you will be suing not only for non payment but for copyright violation. Tell him that his end client will also be named in this suite. Again, embarrassment will help you out.
3. If there is no end client, show up with a bunch of little kids with candy, hang out in his office until a check is forthcoming.
Embarrassment DOES work, i have done this before. I walked into a clients foyer with 6 clients sitting there 'Is ##### here, she owes me late payment.' (It was a month late) They said she wasn't there but i could hear her upstairs, she had a distinctive laugh.
Sure enough, my money came the next day, and after that she paid PROMPTLY.
There are collection attorneys out there who take their fee as part of the recovery. If you think he really won't pay, it is better than getting nothing.
A client (small agency owner) has owed me money since February, has paid over half of the invoice, but still owes me around $10K. He hasn't sent a check in over two months, saying he's waiting to get paid from other projects so he can pay me. We touch base through email every two weeks or so and he's (for the most part) cordial and very descriptive about his efforts to pay me. He swears he wants to make good on this debt owed to me.
Obviously I will never work with this guy again. I've spoken to the client (that works for the product we were shooting for and who I've worked with for years) and she told me this jerk was paid days after our shoot was finished. They had a falling out and apparently he said some horrible things to her. The guy that owes me money hasn't denied this and has stated that this money was embezzled by his employee (art director) that hired me.
So my question is: at what point do I seek legal action or do I just chalk it up to the economy and learn from it? I'd say there is a 50% chance I'll get paid in the next year. I don't really want to pay some lawyer half of what's owed me to try and collect this debt. That said, the legal statute for the state this guy lives in gives me six years to collect on a written contract, from the date of the last payment, before the debt is erased and I can no longer take him to court.
Has anyone had similar problems with the economy the way it is and, if so, what did you do about it? From my understanding the sum owed me is larger than small claims court allows, so it would involve going through 'real' court and I would probably need a lawyer instead of doing it myself.
Before you think about legal action, know that litigation is a two prong process. One, is to get the judgment and then two is to collect it. Having an noncollectable judgment puts you in a no better position as you are in now. So, if the guys has trouble making the ends meet, chances are that even if you get a judgment you will end up, in the best case scenario, with a garnishment order which in Illinois has a maximum of 7% of the net income... you will be entangled with this guy for years...
Because the amount of the money he owes you is relatively small, your best bet is to simply be patient. If you have issued an invoice and he has paid half the invoice--that is enough proof that he owes you money, but proof is needed only if you take the guy to litigation which as I mentioned above, is at best impractical.
My advice: work with the guy and get whatever you can out of him and consider it found money and be patient... Unfortunately, these days, there are many stories like this.
A client (small agency owner) has owed me money since February, has paid over half of the invoice, but still owes me around $10K. He hasn't sent a check in over two months, saying he's waiting to get paid from other projects so he can pay me. We touch base through email every two weeks or so and he's (for the most part) cordial and very descriptive about his efforts to pay me. He swears he wants to make good on this debt owed to me.
Obviously I will never work with this guy again. I've spoken to the client (that works for the product we were shooting for and who I've worked with for years) and she told me this jerk was paid days after our shoot was finished. They had a falling out and apparently he said some horrible things to her. The guy that owes me money hasn't denied this and has stated that this money was embezzled by his employee (art director) that hired me.
So my question is: at what point do I seek legal action or do I just chalk it up to the economy and learn from it? I'd say there is a 50% chance I'll get paid in the next year. I don't really want to pay some lawyer half of what's owed me to try and collect this debt. That said, the legal statute for the state this guy lives in gives me six years to collect on a written contract, from the date of the last payment, before the debt is erased and I can no longer take him to court.
Has anyone had similar problems with the economy the way it is and, if so, what did you do about it? From my understanding the sum owed me is larger than small claims court allows, so it would involve going through 'real' court and I would probably need a lawyer instead of doing it myself.
Lawsuit. Real lawyer.
Even if you win the lawsuit, that does not force the money out of him.
(..I don't really know much about this).
A job that paid over 20,000 dollars ? Wow.
or should have paid that... This is just beyond my world.
I've heard that if you do win a judgement in many states, for example in small claims court, you can get a sheriff's deputy to stand by the cash register (if it is that kind of business) and collect the money as it comes in. Tends to be bad for the business's image and encourages them to pay in full. I don't know how true this is, but it is something to look into.
I had a similar experience working with another photographer on a calender project last year. The printing of the calendar was paid for 100% by the sponsors we got. Any sales would be that much more profit other than paying the models their share. He and I were to split the money from this 50% each. He decided later, after the calendars were printed that he was going to keep 2/3rds of the money for himself and pay me the other 1/3rd so that he could use his extra 1/3 towards the following years calendar project. Problem with a lot of this is that he couldn't keep his stories straight on what he told me or some of the models and sponsors and I decided not to be a part of the next calendar project with him and never agreed to him changing how the money would be split. While we both shot pictures for this, I was the only one that had any graphic design experience and did the entire design of the calendar with a custom logo. Then he had the nerve to ask me to give him the artwork for the logo so he could use it again.
I hate working on things like this with dishonest people.
You're talking serious money owed.- consult a lawyer for advice. You dont ask a dentist about that pain you have when you piss, why would you ask anyone besides an attorney how to best go about collecting $10K ?
In Nova Scotia, small claims is limited to $25,000 (twenty five thousand). You can claim interest over and above that. You can also claim costs (filing fees) over and above. Either side can have a lawyer represent them or not, as they wish, but proceedings are more informal than other courts.
Forget all the legal bullshit. The only way you'll get your money is go collect. Show up, give them twenty minutes and a couple options of your choice, and you'll get your money.
CAP603 wrote: You're talking serious money owed.- consult a lawyer for advice. You dont ask a dentist about that pain you have when you piss, why would you ask anyone besides an attorney how to best go about collecting $10K ?
The real issue is, it's usually not the first time they have screwed somebody. You can chase them around legally for years and still never get your money.
Since you made an inordinate amount of money. (A talent agency?) I am guessing that you negotiated a great rate.
I don't really know, but I suspect that you "got" the guy pretty good with a $20K+ billing.
If I were able to do such a thing, I would understand that collecting more than I deserve is part of why I would charge so much.
Just be on the guy... If you mange to collect before he files for bankruptcy, you've done pretty good.
I have a hunch that this guy is not gonna last though... He's obviously not good with keeping his costs down. A guy like him is a walking lollipop. I sort of pity the poor bastard.
Monito -- Alan wrote: I've heard that if you do win a judgement in many states, for example in small claims court, you can get a sheriff's deputy to stand by the cash register (if it is that kind of business) and collect the money as it comes in. Tends to be bad for the business's image and encourages them to pay in full. I don't know how true this is, but it is something to look into.
That is correct, and the term for the procedure is "Till Tap."
Judge Judy would be a blast, but I think that's small claims!
It is small claims. You have to put up with Judy's piehole yapping off, however, it is still a good deal because the judgment is paid by the show ... you don't have to worry about collecting the money.
Uncle Tim wrote: Since you made an inordinate amount of money. (A talent agency?) I am guessing that you negotiated a great rate.
I don't really know, but I suspect that you "got" the guy pretty good with a $20K+ billing.
If I were able to do such a thing, I would understand that collecting more than I deserve is part of why I would charge so much.
Just be on the guy... If you mange to collect before he files for bankruptcy, you've done pretty good.
I have a hunch that this guy is not gonna last though... He's obviously not good with keeping his costs down. A guy like him is a walking lollipop. I sort of pity the poor bastard.
Tim Orden
My estimate, and in turn my invoice, did not reflect an 'inordinate' amount of money. I'm not a model, but I'm guessing you thought I was by saying 'a talent agency' might have negotiated me a great rate. I'm a photographer, and this was shooting a job for a nationally advertising client. And I didn't 'get' the guy with a $20K plus billing. What he has paid me for to this point has pretty much only been the expenses portion of my invoice (hotels, airfare, rental car, assistants, stylists, food, etc.). What he still owes me would be mostly my fee.
And I'm in no way trying to collect 'more than I deserve' as you put it. My estimate was actually lower than my invoice, so the ad agency knew before I shot what I was gonna charge them. And, to be honest, my $20K plus invoice was a bargain for this client.
