I'm new to MM and to photography, you can take a quick look at my profile for specifics, I'm just gonna try to get right to the point so as not to waste your time. I sent the following message to a photographer that's about 80 miles away:
"Greetings from Vicksburg! I have seen you listed in the credits of most of the local MM models and I visited your page....was very impressed by your work. I noticed it said you especially enjoy helping others out so I just thought I'd ask...I'm sure you never need or already have any help you need, but would you be willing to let me come and 'assist' you once or twice when you have a busy day of shooting? You can check my profile to see a little about me. I'm just a hobby photog trying to learn the ropes... But there's only so much you can learn from books. Rest assured I would never be any compitition to you as I already have a fulfilling career. I'm very easy going, listen well and have a pretty good sense of humor. Let me know if this is something you would be willing to do. Maybe I could hire a good model that you have worked with and come up and you could teach me a little while you shoot or I could just pay you when you already have a client that wouldn't mind my being there. Anyway, please just let me know...I'm anxious to learn from a great photographer.
Thanks, Jason "
Anyway, the message was read but I never got ANY response...yes, no, hell no, don't bother me again you annoying jerk...nothing. Could anyone tell me if this kind of request is common or frowned upon...was I out of line? I mean, I did offer to pay....or pay for the model. I'm sure its been hit upon in the forums before, but I couldn't find anything on it other than people wanting to be HIRED as an assistant.
Some people feel that a non response is a more polite way of saying no. I tend to block models that pull that shit. But there are also other possible reasons behind a non-response. He could have checked his email through his phone and meant to respond later, then forgot. I'm pretty bad about that when I get busy. He could also just be extremely busy and will eventually get to a response. Or he could just be a douchebag.
Don't think he'll be the last. If I had a dime, well you know.
Of all I have approached on MM, only two have greeted me with open arms. I was invited to their studios, shown lighting secrets, and even some post editing tricks.
Doug Swinskey wrote: perhaps he hasn't thought up an appropriate response yet?
Shouldn't take over a week to think up "No thanks" or "sure, call me and we'll work something out." If it does then maybe I was barking up the wrong tree. I'm not that put off by the lack of response as much as I want to know if this was a reasonable request. How would any of you other professional photographers have responded if you got the same message??
I have found that a lot of people here, both models and photographers, do not reply for any number of reasons. They forgot, they don't have time, they're not interested. It is too bad that most won't just say so in a response that would take them two seconds as opposed to just being rude. Like the one response said, if you do not like how that photographer handled his/herself, do what you can to never be like that. Don't take it personally, some people just were just brought up without manners, others are too forgetful to know.
It is not out of line to send a message like that to a photographer. I've gotten a few of these and I do take the time to respond. Heck I've even taken someone up on it and had them assist. Worked out fine.
Shouldn't take over a week to think up "No thanks" or "sure, call me and we'll work something out." If it does then maybe I was barking up the wrong tree. I'm not that put off by the lack of response as much as I want to know if this was a reasonable request. How would any of you other professional photographers have responded if you got the same message??
Your request was very reasonable and I would have jumped all over it...HA!
Well, you mis-spelled competition, so that probably pissed him off.
Uhmm, MM now has a message limit, even for VIP peoples, so maybe he was saving them to write love notes to models?
I too get ticked off with no-responses and consider it rude. But maybe it's similar to a telemarketer calling you and leaving a message and you not responding back.
But if the photographer said that they give assistance to new photographers, then that is BS.
For starters, it'd help to break your message up into paragraphs should you send something like that out in the future. Easier on the eyes & appears less of a mass of text in struggling to read through what's what.
I'd also shorten or rephrase this line:
I'm sure you never need or already have any help you need, but would you be willing to let me come and 'assist' you once or twice when you have a busy day of shooting?
It never hurts to butter someone's ego but at the same time, you've already complimented him on his work earlier. I wouldn't try to butter him up again while mixing it in w/ more important matters, asking to assist. In regards to the assist, just asking if he have any interest in having an assistant or if he'd be willing to allow you to observe (we all approach things differently).
The no-reply is another matter. It'll depend directly upon how soon the no-reply was. Speaking STRICTLY for myself, sometimes I'll quick read a message to see if there's any time sensitive info that I have to deal w/ & leave it for later (especially if I'm on the road & don't have a decent laptop connection handy) because I'm on the fly or where I can do it in a place where I can actually think. If its been months or whatever, the no-reply kinda is the answer. In instances of the latter, I wouldn't expect much but still be civil & professional & for god sake's, don't "trash talk" because you've been blown off. Tomorrow's blow-off might just have been a bad day to him.
Shizam1 wrote: Well, you mis-spelled competition, so that probably pissed him off.
Uhmm, MM now has a message limit, even for VIP peoples, so maybe he was saving them to write love notes to models?
I too get ticked off with no-responses and consider it rude. But maybe it's similar to a telemarketer calling you and leaving a message and you not responding back.
But if the photographer said that they give assistance to new photographers, then that is BS.
Dang, I did let a mis-spelld word get buy, I'm so dum But seriously, I'm not mad about the non-response and he didn't say he'd give assistance to new photogs, just that he enjoyed helping people.
Farenell Photography wrote: For starters, it'd help to break your message up into paragraphs should you send something like that out in the future. Easier on the eyes & appears less of a mass of text in struggling to read through what's what.
I'd also shorten or rephrase this line:
I'm sure you never need or already have any help you need, but would you be willing to let me come and 'assist' you once or twice when you have a busy day of shooting?
Thanks for the english comp lesson...next time I'll try to include some illustrations/pictures as well for those that struggle with solid text. He He
Each person will respond (or not) in different ways. I work over 60 hours a week and can't always keep my messages straight and I have had models do the same (although my iPhone and slew of computers help me a bit).
If you want to improve your photography, then contact some of the mentors on the 2nd List. There might even be one in your area.
D Canter Photography wrote: Each person will respond (or not) in different ways. I work over 60 hours a week and can't always keep my messages straight and I have had models do the same (although my iPhone and slew of computers help me a bit).
If you want to improve your photography, then contact some of the mentors on the 2nd List. There might even be one in your area.
Thanks Darrin, I'll check out that thread. And the wife is getting braces off on Monday...she's very excited.
LOL. Well you had better take some great pictures of her before she gets them off. You need something to print 20x30 and hang on your wall so you can tease her.
No matter what the answer if they person is a professional they should answer. It is a matter of being civil. The no answer means no is childish and immature. A return to your message is not asking too much. It is just an example of how technology and networking on line whether personal or professional has affected the ability to communicate. You can respond to any message so quickly it is not even an inconvenience. A simple "I'm sorry I'm not prepared to work with other photographers at this time. Thank you for thinking and the offer. Good luck with your photo education. I wish you luck. Kind Regards" would not be too much to ask for and would have taken fifteen seconds to send. Being civil and understanding that if someone takes the time to send a message they deserve a response. Not responding is juvenile and shows an unprofessional attitude. No one is too busy to send a simple response. You reap what you sow. Being kind should be in everything you do. Maybe in the future I hope and wish that people will learn how to use technology in a way that does not show a regression in humanity.
MM doesn't exactly have the greatest message management system. People who are popular and busy get a lot of messages. Sometimes when you don't have an immediate quick answer to a question or request the message gets buried and can easily be forgotten. There can be many reasons for a no reply. Just accept the fact that MM is a form of mass communication and not the same as saying hello to someone on the street.
Jim Williams wrote: MM doesn't exactly have the greatest message management system. People who are popular and busy get a lot of messages. Sometimes when you don't have an immediate quick answer to a question or request the message gets buried and can easily be forgotten. There can be many reasons for a no reply. Just accept the fact that MM is a form of mass communication and not the same as saying hello to someone on the street.
i agree i loose messages all the time, if they aren't on the top two pages i may never see them
Well its kind of like a girl not answering her phone or returning your call/text.
Everything in the book and gut intuition will tell you that she's not interested, but she could have very well been busy and saw you then forgot to get back at you and increasingly often, a repeatable technology glitch that makes sure your message never arrives.
An unsolicited message does not compel the recipient to respond. He does NOT owe you an answer, it is completely his choice.
One lesson that is quickly learned on here is that the best way to say no is not answer. There are WAY too many people who get all butthurt if they are turned down. I suspect that by posting this thread, you have revealed yourself as one of them. Sorry.
Charles West wrote: Well, you have the right to ask whatever you want.
He has the right not to answer. If this bothers you, just make sure you answer all PMs, and don't be like him.
There was nothing wrong with your note.
+1
I try to answer all PMs that don't require wiring money to Nigeria. Don't be like him. Answer your pms with a minimum of a 'yes, no, or not interested' Let's start a revolution.
Jason Combs Photography wrote: Shouldn't take over a week to think up "No thanks" or "sure, call me and we'll work something out."
Actually, yes it can. It's not always that cut & dry. And when it's as long as the OP, I usually just delete it halfway through.
I regularly get "request-to-assist" messages...have been for a few years. I seldom respond, though, because I learned early on that any form of "no" can spark a barrage of hate mail and clutter your inbox.
Some people just can't handle rejection, no matter how easy you let them down.
If they're interested, you'll hear back. If not, you probably won't.
+1
A non response isn't a MM or internet phenomenon.
OP, it may be he's not interested, intending to reply later, or would simply contact you when he's looking for an assistant.
Photographers looking for assistants, unpaid or otherwise, usually go by who they know or for someone who already knows what they're doing and will be useful on set as opposed to someone who's new, will need to learn the ropes and is likely to get in the way (especially during a busy day of shooting!).
Your best bet is to check out the list of Photography Mentors and ask to assist on a learning basis. If they have casual shoots where they have time to explain things as they go along, that would prolly be more useful to you.
Otherwise try group shoots and workshops etc. Network with other photographers, pass out your card.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions, or even further as you did. There could be many reasons for you not getting a reply. Don't take it personally. You will find ( not only here, but outside in the real world too ) that there are far more photographers who won't give you the time of day, than those who actually give their time and attention back to those who ask for it. Some may very well not have the time, especially if they're established and booked solid. Don't let a few "NO's" or "NO REPLIES" stop you from asking. You may also wish to check the Model Mayhem Mentor list for photographers listed in your area, and contact them. Here is the link to the thread and list.
I wouldn't sweat it personally. No response means nothing really. Hell if he's all that he may well be out of town on assignment or who knows. Maybe ask if he offers a workshop or tutoring coarse.
Check the events forum here at MM for a workshop or group gathering that is local to you and plan to attend or if there is none contact a few local shooters and see if you can organize one.
Shizam1 wrote: Well, you mis-spelled competition, so that probably pissed him off.
Uhmm, MM now has a message limit, even for VIP peoples, so maybe he was saving them to write love notes to models?
I too get ticked off with no-responses and consider it rude. But maybe it's similar to a telemarketer calling you and leaving a message and you not responding back.
But if the photographer said that they give assistance to new photographers, then that is BS.
VIP has a message limit!? How have I NOT gone over!!?? Whoa - news to me. Hmm.
::end hijack::
And to answer the OP - we would have totally been down for letting you pay us to teach you some stuff... we would have even found you a pretty lady that was willing to shoot TF with you while doing so. That would be great stuff!
Your request is perfectly reasonable. I get a lot of requests similar to what you mentioned and I don't have time to respond to them all, don't take it personally, just keep on trying. With me persistence usually pays off.
Jason, this site is flooded with people who are so full of themselves that they think that only those who can help them in some way are worthy of even the smallest courtesy. I wrote a model on here twice (I know that it is possible to overlook a message or forget to reply) simply to ask for her rates. I was to-the-point and said nothing that could in any way be offensive, She never responded. I find it hard to believe that someone wouldn't have the professionalism to even respond to inquiry about paid work. Welcome to Model Mayhem.
Lumigraphics wrote: An unsolicited message does not compel the recipient to respond. He does NOT owe you an answer, it is completely his choice.
One lesson that is quickly learned on here is that the best way to say no is not answer. There are WAY too many people who get all butthurt if they are turned down. I suspect that by posting this thread, you have revealed yourself as one of them. Sorry.
I would have let the first part of your reply slide as just being redundant...several others have already shared this thought but then you had to add an unhelpful little personal jab at a newbie Let me refer you to a couple of things: 1. The subject line of this thread was not "boo hoo, why didn't he call me"...it was "pose a threat or are you just not that into it?" which I hoped would suggest that I was interested in knowing WHY he wouldn't respond to my request, not that I was "all butthurt" that he DIDN'T respond.
2. The only sentence in my original post (outside the PM quote) that ended with a question mark was this: "Could anyone tell me if this kind of request is common or frowned upon...was I out of line?" Please note that I asked if *I* was out of line. This was not intended to be a rant thread on "no response".
That being said, and with all do respect...
....please take the time to carefully read the OP's original post if you're going to include insults in your response.
RickTaylor wrote: Jason, this site is flooded with people who are so full of themselves that they think that only those who can help them in some way are worthy of even the smallest courtesy.
Oh, please. This has nothing to do with being an egomaniac, and if that's your impression, then you clearly weren't paying attention to some of the other responses. Like some others, I simply do not have the time to write a response to offers I'm not interested in. When I was off hiatus here on MM (oh, bless this hiatus, thankyouverymuch), my inbox was always full of messages, and I was already planning shoots and concepts with models and those needed my attention. Between this site, and the other messages I get, it hits the thousands weekly. If I devoted my time to answering every damn message I got--including ones like the OP's--I'd never shoot anything. So yes, if I don't respond, that's a "no". Or the message got lost amid the scuffle, which happens too.
To the OP: Not an uncommon request, and your message was just fine. Have you made inquiries to local photo businesses, as well?
JFA Photography wrote: There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions, or even further as you did. There could be many reasons for you not getting a reply. Don't take it personally. You will find ( not only here, but outside in the real world too ) that there are far more photographers who won't give you the time of day, than those who actually give their time and attention back to those who ask for it. Some may very well not have the time, especially if they're established and booked solid. Don't let a few "NO's" or "NO REPLIES" stop you from asking. You may also wish to check the Model Mayhem Mentor list for photographers listed in your area, and contact them. Here is the link to the thread and list.
Thanks. This response and others like it have been helpful.
But again, I was not just asking to be an assistant, I offered to pay HIM!
I thought money talks and BS walks, right? I bet not many others would ignore an offer from a potential PAYING client. If you do, congrats...you must be doing very well. (and let me state again I'm really not mad at the no/slow response.)
chase queries up and you will eventually get a yes or a no
after 3 strategic attempts and still no response you can safely say someone isn't interested in what you have to offer.
contacting someone more than once eliminates the majority of what ifs..
paul
Thanks for the advice, but I'm not the type to repeat a request such as the one I had made. If I didn't get an enthusiastic response from my first PM then an eventual "yes" after hounding him probably wouldn't lead to a positive learning experience for me.
but then you had to add an unhelpful little personal jab at a newbie 
