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Mono-Block Vs Heads & Packs?
So at school we are using the Speedotron Brown Line, One thing that surprised me was that the power in wattage came from the pack and not the head (I'm used to AB's). On our packs we have settings like A/B, A+B, etc to add or split power to the heads as needed. I happened to be reading profotos new add about how they have 1/12,000 or a second shutter speed, pretty impressive f-stop range. Our Speedos you set the power-per-head and then you have a 3-stop range. So I'm trying to logically look at the differences between something like the new Einstein's, and getting some speedotron brown line, or the entry profoto kit. I'm just looking spec for spec and I don't see a real advantage for the price difference. No I readily admit the color temp shift on my 1600's is annoying, but with 1/10,000th of a sec shutter speed and consistent color on the bee's, what's the advantage? Please lets not get into a Johnson comparing contest I'm looking for something maybe I'm missing or something I don't understand. (Yes I know you can control light power from one source from the pack) Thanks, Steven Jan 29 10 08:03 am Link Rent a Profoto pack and a couple heads for the weekend and put them through the paces. What works for other people may not work for you. Jan 29 10 11:30 am Link You're comparing a chevy cobalt to a bmw. The Profoto lights are very high end professional lights, the brownline is lower end professional lighting. Both will work well, but the cost of the profoto accessories and such will likely be more than a semi pro photographer may choose to spend. To realize the benenfits of the better equipment you'd likely have to use your lights everyday, all day. Its fine for studios, schools and the top tier photographers to use the very best, but unless you're very well off, it may just be out of your range. When I was in school it was drilled into us the lights all need to be from the same mfg, otherwise output, color consistency and overall performance could not be adequately controlled. Jan 29 10 11:44 am Link Ok so I was kind of asking for facts: Consistent color temps t 1 flash duration availability of lighting modifiers etc The one thing I did say on the Speedo line was the face that you could twist the reflector portion to recess or expose the head as desired. Other then that I didn't see to much if you can get consistent color. So again is there something factual? There is a thing as "paying for a name" Steven Jan 29 10 01:27 pm Link Profoto has VERY consistent color temps AND shot to shot power consistency All reflectors have focusing feature Short (but not he shortest) flash duration HUGE assortment of EXPENSIVE light modifiers Paying for quality, not a name. Jan 29 10 01:30 pm Link For me the only real life difference is the chance to put in one single head 3000 wts from a bowens quadx. I also recommend you to check this http://www.dito.se/pdf/Quadx%20testinfo.pdf plus bowens well, it has bowens s bayonet for the mods. Jan 29 10 01:34 pm Link What is your current light(s) situation? You mention a 1600 (AB?) which many photographers would love to have. Why do you need/want to change? The question your asking is for technical information you can get from a data sheet, what you should be asking for is user experiences and observations about those things that aren't on a data sheet. Perhaps you don't even need a pack/head system. Maybe your shooting style is such that monolights are fine. Many photographers get hung up on the latest, greatest, yet quality photos are still being made by RB67's from the '70s.. Lighting is an investment. The cost of the physical light may be less than the modifiers and such to go with them. Profoto light kits will run you a year's salary or more depending on the system (and your income), so perhaps you should state what your current lighting can't do and illicit replies to help you find the right answers. Jan 29 10 01:44 pm Link Hector Fernandez wrote: Ok so this was more what I was talking about: Jan 29 10 01:50 pm Link Mark Harrington Photogr wrote: These are all very good questions, the only reason why I am not VERY happy with my AB's is because I'm starting to see the color variations people have warned me about. Jan 29 10 01:52 pm Link The major difference is power. I've used both monolights and several different power packs. What I like about the power packs is that I have more access to accessories. There are some monolights that have tons of accessories, but nothing like the power packs. The only advantage that I see with the monolights is being to move them around easier since they're not forced to be plugged into a power pack. Jan 29 10 02:25 pm Link Steven Aiello wrote: Take a look at this article on choosing studio lighting. It has an overview of the differences between pack systems and monolights. Jan 29 10 09:13 pm Link Steven Aiello wrote: It depends on what you shoot, frankly. Jan 29 10 09:18 pm Link Heads and packs all the way. Try suspending monolight on boom at a horizontal aim without some heavy, heavy duty grips and support... Jan 29 10 09:35 pm Link Chuckarelei wrote: Some monolights are very lightweight. Alien Bee's, for example. And the pack-and-head cables weigh a lot, too. Jan 29 10 09:40 pm Link I've used speedtron brown and black line units. And Profoto..and a lot of other lights when the client was footing the bill and i need to rent more lights. When I had to buy my own I went for 20 year old Speedtrons. Tons of mods available used and new. Not so pricey either but excellent quality. I have a camera profile in Lightroom and each lens also has it's own profile...so do the different strobes. I shoot a McBeth Color checker in each set up and color correction from it in LR is a breeze. The only major factor is the available power (Mons vs Packs) and recycle times. I don't often shoot quickly nor do I seem to need more than 200-500 W/S out of each head. Even with mods attached. Not Like I want to shoot f/22 very often. I have a custom adapter for my 72" soft boxes that fits 2 heads incase I DO need more power. The ONLY Ab tool I have is their ring light. Cheapest powered unit you can buy. Crappy build but great light. And yes the color varies but mostly only when I shoot too fast and the power is not all the way up when I'm on the Vagabond. Again, EASY to correct..and using LR easy even if there are a lot of shots. Fix one, sync the others and say done! Chuckarelei wrote: I use "C" stands with sand bags and a Manfrotto crank boom arm and do that very thing all the time. AND I avoid the spider web of cables coming from a pack...each to their own! But one big advantage of Monos is when using 3 or 4 of them and one goes down you've still got 2 or 3 left. If you lose a power pack do you have 2 or 3 additional ones to go with all those heads? Jan 29 10 09:51 pm Link Leggy Mountbatten wrote: The cable is stretch out along the boom arm. So not all the weight is on the head. Jan 29 10 09:58 pm Link R Michael Walker wrote: I have 2 Balcar's, 8 Normans, 10 Novatrons. So having one pack goes down is never a concern. Jan 29 10 10:03 pm Link I have speedotron 4803cx 4 heads and 3 force 10 monos all use same accessories a nice system however no radio slaves will control the force 10 power settings which is a mild drawback but they have an 8 stop range and all the power you will need but they are heavy monos. Used an elinchrom and profoto, great units digital dial nice but not really that critical for what I do I got a deal on all the units I own which was a heavy deciding factor in my purchase  But rent if you can the system you are going to invest in. Buying lights like buying a car take em out drop the hammer and see which one impresses you the most. If your in a big city I would imagine there are a number of studios that rent hourly with different set ups to choose from. Jan 30 10 01:00 am Link Cool thanks all, looks like the largest issue is power. Very informative. Jan 30 10 06:16 am Link Steven Aiello wrote: With any tool you have to define it at what will most of your usage be. I use what my needs are at the time I need it. Never second guess yourself Jan 30 10 06:21 am Link brownline has little control, slow recycle and limited power. Get blackline or switch brands. With blackline I often use 805 packs one per head and adjust all based on that, but they have more control and packs up to 4800 which can run a 9600ws head connected to two. The 805 packs can run off non commercial outlets in peoples homes without problems, larger packs can start to get into issues pushing standard older home 15amp fuses if you cycle fast. Broncolor and newer D4 packs have individual head controls from the pack so instead of ratio controls you control each heads power directly. Its much easier to dial in with less thought. Stephen Eastwood http://www.PhotographersPortfolio.com Jan 30 10 06:23 am Link I shoot a lot with Profoto Acute 2 packs-n-heads. I'm not impressed with them. Mostly for the build quality and especially considering price. Besides monolights, I have a PCB Zeus pack-n-head kit. It's small and portable and with my Tronix ExplorerXT I'm good to go most anywhere. I also have the ring flash for the Zeus. For the price, I like this kit quite a bit. The pros and cons of monolights v. packs-n-heads aren't really too important to me. Best tool for the job I say. BTW, I've put monolights on a boom plenty of times. Long as you have a decent enough boom and stand, it's not a problem. I have the Manfrotto which is plenty sturdy for that. I've put my Mola 33.5" Euro dish on it, with a monolight, and it handles the weight just fine. Jan 30 10 10:00 am Link Ok the real question that I had was about the quality and shape of the light. I do like the fact that you can protrude and recess the light by twisting the strobe head at least on the speedos. So in summary differences seem to be: Pack being the power source of wattage, and power in general: (I don't seeing AB's coming out with a 2400 watt unit any time soon) Color consistency: The new ABs seem to good enough for me, plus minus 50 deg is almost nothing as far as I can tell. The weight of the units when trying to place them on booms and such. So one thing I did see is that you may actually get more light per watt in a mono-block due to cord length? So if you have a true 640 watt mono-block that's almost the equivalent of a 1300 watt pack head combo? Can any one confirm this? Thanks again, Steven Jan 30 10 10:19 am Link Steven Aiello wrote: If you're seeing color changes at 1/2power, you're firing before they finish recharging. Jan 30 10 02:32 pm Link A 640 watt monobloc is exactly that. A 1500 watt power pack that is devided into two heads at 800 watt heads will of course utilize that pack to the fullest. Using a pack n head systems has its places, and monoblocs have their places too. Can you provide what kind of lighting situations you are shooting? A lot of wedding shooters love monoblocs because they can place a light wherever they have power. The pack n head system you are limited to the distance from the cord to pack. You have your experiences with the Alien Bees, my recommendation would be to either rent equipment, or option 2 is go to a workshop that is sponsored by a lighting manufacturer to test out equipment. The only problem with option 2 scenario is that you are limited to the style of the organizer and their preferences of light set ups. Which is good, bad or indifferent. Jan 30 10 09:11 pm Link Steven Aiello wrote: i'm not following the color temperature variation with your ABs, for me, I would find that quite unacceptable......but you do know that you can order your AB with color corrected flash tubes? or we're talking color temp. variation between exposures or power outputs, and this happens consistently, regardless of CC flashtubes or not? Jan 30 10 09:20 pm Link If you decide to go Speedotron go for the Blackline as they are built tough and will last for ever. The Brownline stuff is more of a hobbyist type of gear.There is a ton of used Balckline stuff out there too so the investment cost isn't so enormous. Jan 30 10 09:39 pm Link Also if you have local stores that rent gear its always worth factoring on buying your system but using rental as outlet for special needed Items i.e extra heads packs reflectors beauty dishes. And blackline speedo stuff has been great for me and tankish but go to the gym before u buy they are heavy packs and blocks but build quality is great. Oh and there monos are true rated power some others rate them higher than they actually output. But their downfall is tech support hard to get replies from them have never needed other than trying to get info on tech specs for actual power consumption and draw rates, not actual problems. Jan 30 10 11:43 pm Link Steven Aiello wrote: Wattage drops happen on cord from the pack to head. Voltage drops on cord from AC outlet to your light AC inlet. Jan 31 10 12:19 am Link Jag Images wrote: I hear the heavy weight comment often, but it's usually comparing apples and oranges. Jag Images wrote: I've spoken with Speedotron tech support a half-dozen times to get info about products I've bought used, and always got a quick, useful response. Haven't had to service anything yet--I've only owned the lights for 10-ish years, though much of it was bought heavily used--so I can't report on service response. Jan 31 10 11:12 am Link The color temp change is in relation to the power output from the Bee's. Depending on if I'm at full power to minimum there can be 250 to 300 Kelvin temp difference. I don't see it so much on the skin but I have some grey paper I use as a backdrop where it's really noticeable. The new AB's (when ever they actually are shipped) are supposed to be controlled with in a 50 deg. Kelvin temp difference through out their power range. I'm kinda a big guy so I'm not really worried about weight. Steven Jan 31 10 11:21 am Link Coming from a background of pack & heads (very old Norman system, but still works!), that is my preference except if I'm working alone on a small location shoot (like a corporate headshot) and I want to get in and out fast. Some folks were concerned about moving the pack around, and that is what head extension cables are for. They also let you hang a head from a boom or clamped to a ceiling fixture. Ideally you have multiple (and extra) packs available (like any pro would), but having the extra power (my Normans go up to 4000ws, and I have one 4000ws head) is really nice when you're using multiple heads and as stated, there are a lot more accessories around for p&h systems. Also, being able to easily control them and change the power settings, and monitor them to know they're all firing and when they've recharged, is a very good. Jan 31 10 11:48 am Link You will lose 'some' efficiency with pack & heads over monos, and generally, I use monos only as I have to, when I run out of other heads, or if I am traveling without an assistant and have no other option. Otherwise, Speedo Blackline are good, solid packs, heads are nice, but output just isnt as efficient as people would like to believe... Brownline, for the price are vastly under-rated, but no fans and slower recycle time means they aren't as popular. Still, unbelievable value. A lot of fashion guys in the city use Dyna-lite (as do I, when Im not lugging Balcar Fs or Bron packs around). Super efficient, compact, compact heads, flash tubes easy to replace, consistent, good flash duration. 1000 Ws in half the size of a workman's lunchbox. If you have the $$$, get the Balcar Fs, I use a couple and they are sweet. Super efficient, and incredible consistency, I think that Freytag uses the F's predecessor (the Nexus) packs in Hefner's LA studio. Very very nice packs but be prepared to pay the $$$.  Equally pricey, and if you need product-shot super fast snap durations, then look at the Broncolor Scoro (and their other) packs. Both Bron and Balcar allow something few others have - focusable heads, which allow movement of the flash tube vis a vis the strobe and reflector housing itself, as opposed to the Profoto style which moves the external reflector only. Once you go pack, you'll never go back. I prefer the controls at my feet rather than using controls on the shoe mounted triggers, or having to walk over to the heads and adjust them. Its always a nice feeling when you get a brand new out of the factory pack or two...in a few years you will have a dozen or so... and you need them. I usually use only one head per pack. Jan 31 10 02:37 pm Link Steven Aiello wrote: the advantage to me is 'thought process' when I was using packs I spent too much 'thought process' trying to figure out 'how and where' to run the head feeders on complex multi-light set up's. don't have that issues with monoheads. Jan 31 10 03:53 pm Link Steven Aiello wrote: That's because they let you adjust 5 stops. That's why I said stop adjusting below 1/4 power if color consistency is an issue. Or get a white lightning that lets you switch capacitor banks so you can drop to 1/4 w/o as much color variation. Most monos only give you 1 to 1/8 power at post...a lot of pack/head systems only go down to 1/4 power... Feb 01 10 09:11 am Link |
