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Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,821
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Ever had a 16 or 17yr old model contact you wanting to shoot and it seems like they're trying to goad you into saying or doing something inappropriate?

For example, I have one who keeps popping up on my instant messenger and she goes on and on about how she'd really like to try nude work, etc.. but when I don't bite, she goes away for a couple days.

I don't think it's law enforcement trying to trap people. My gut is that it's local photographers with fake profiles trying to dig up dirt.
May 10 10 02:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


It really depends on the context. I have contacted photographers who shoot nudes that I simply adore and asked them about shooting nudes (after my birthday). It may be a case similar to mine, or possibly girls who just don't understand how taboo it is to shoot a minor nude.

Shooting minors nude isn't inherently illegal, so I really doubt it would be law enforcement; maybe other photographers (wouldn't have been my first thought, but I don't know your market).
May 10 10 02:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shane Noir
Posts: 2,332
Los Angeles, California, US


John Jebbia wrote:
Ever had a 16 or 17yr old model contact you wanting to shoot and it seems like they're trying to goad you into saying or doing something inappropriate?

For example, I have one who keeps popping up on my instant messenger and she goes on and on about how she'd really like to try nude work, etc.. but when I don't bite, she goes away for a couple days.

I don't think it's law enforcement trying to trap people. My gut is that it's local photographers with fake profiles trying to dig up dirt.

Haven't gotten any requests like that.  Sounds like a photographer or just some random perv.

May 10 10 02:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Figure Photo
Posts: 807
Scottsdale, Arizona, US


i suppose it could be photographers trying to dig up dirt, but i'm guessing more likely the girl is just fishing for compliments - she wants to feel desirable, so she wants people to say that they'd like to photograph her nude.
May 10 10 02:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shane Noir
Posts: 2,332
Los Angeles, California, US


Morgan Barbour wrote:
Shooting minors nude isn't inherently illegal

In most places in the USA, it pretty much is, especially if you are a male photographer.  I mean yeah, you might not get sent to prison, but you will almost certainly get your home and computers raided in a search for child pornography, and many people will get into a frenzy about you being some sort of pedophile. 

Try shaking off a reputation like that in the internet age... lol

May 10 10 02:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ALT Visions Photography
Posts: 370
San Jose, California, US


It depends on what the laws are in the jurisdictions in question.  Generally, it's legal to shoot nudes of minors in the U.S.  That's not to say that its guaranteed to be hassle-free.

As in most things in life:
Know the rules of the game.
Choose your battles wisely.
May 10 10 02:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,821
Phoenix, Arizona, US


This thread really isn't about the legality of it.. there are others for that.

This thread is have you ever been contacted by a model and get the feeling its just another photographer trying to dig up dirt or get you to say something they can use against you.
May 10 10 02:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TXPHOTO
Posts: 1,907
Fort Worth, Texas, US


Shane Noir wrote:

In most places in the USA, it pretty much is, especially if you are a male photographer.  I mean yeah, you might not get sent to prison, but you will almost certainly get your home and computers raided in a search for child pornography, and many people will get into a frenzy about you being some sort of pedophile. 

Try shaking off a reputation like that in the internet age... lol

Wrong.  Its NOT illegal, stupid perhaps, but not illegal unless sexually oriented, but thats true even if clothed.  I would not do it, even if asked.

May 10 10 02:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


Shane Noir wrote:
In most places in the USA, it pretty much is, especially if you are a male photographer.  I mean yeah, you might not get sent to prison, but you will almost certainly get your home and computers raided in a search for child pornography, and many people will get into a frenzy about you being some sort of pedophile. 

Try shaking off a reputation like that in the internet age... lol

That's why I said it was taboo. Just not by the books illegal, per se. Lewd and lascivious photos of a minor (regardless of level of dress) - that's illegal. It's just that those terms are so damn subjective that yeah, shooting a minor naked is a big risk. I would never ask a photographer to risk their reputation to shoot nudes of me (which is why, even though I have several shoots booked for figure work, it's after I turn 18).

Just sayin' - I think if they were baiting they'd ask to shoot porn or have sex, not nude photographs. tongue

May 10 10 02:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


John Jebbia wrote:
This thread really isn't about the legality of it.. there are others for that.

This thread is have you ever been contacted by a model and get the feeling its just another photographer trying to dig up dirt or get you to say something they can use against you.

What makes you feel that it is a photographer? (Just curious).

May 10 10 02:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marc Damon
Posts: 6,562
Biloxi, Mississippi, US


Block her and move on the the next model.

Tell her you would be happy to arrange a shoot but first you have to talk to both her and her parents in the presence of a politician, a judge, a police officer, a lawyer and a minister. All she needs to do is give you her parents phone number.

Tell her you don't discuss shoot details online or over the phone but you'd be glad to let her daddy buy you lunch. Invite your lawyer and a minister to tag along.

Tell her you don't discuss shoot details online or over the phone but you'd be glad to let her pimp buy you lunch. Invite the cop who lives next door to tag along.
May 10 10 02:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,821
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Morgan Barbour wrote:
What makes you feel that it is a photographer? (Just curious).

1. Failure to commit to a meeting with her parents.
2. Frequent hints at "I wanna shoot naked" without actually saying it.. Almost like trying to get me to say something in writing.

May 10 10 02:24 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38,155
Reno, Nevada, US


John Jebbia wrote:
This thread really isn't about the legality of it.. there are others for that.

This thread is have you ever been contacted by a model and get the feeling its just another photographer trying to dig up dirt or get you to say something they can use against you.

Morgan Barbour wrote:
What makes you feel that it is a photographer? (Just curious).

Because it happens all the time.  If I post a casting call on Craigslist and include a link to my website, my casting call will be flagged simply because the scammers on craigslist don't want to have to compete with a legitimate ad.

I have no doubt people might want to dig up dirt on John.

May 10 10 02:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


John Jebbia wrote:

1. Failure to commit to a meeting with her parents.
2. Frequent hints at "I wanna shoot naked" without actually saying it.. Almost like trying to get me to say something in writing.

Ahh, I see. Yeah, that does sound fishy. hmm

May 10 10 02:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,821
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Well, I ain't biting.
May 10 10 02:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marc Damon
Posts: 6,562
Biloxi, Mississippi, US


John Jebbia wrote:

1. Failure to commit to a meeting with her parents.
2. Frequent hints at "I wanna shoot naked" without actually saying it.. Almost like trying to get me to say something in writing.

"Here's my phone number. Have your parents call me. There is no point in continuing our discussion until after I speak to them."

Then just ignore all communication from her until mommy calls you.

May 10 10 02:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brooklyn Bridge Images
Posts: 10,522
Brooklyn, New York, US


Why do you think its not Law Enforcement ???
They do have people working to sting people online.
Maybe its this guy
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UjjyPis4YG4/S705Y4TIu9I/AAAAAAAAA0k/XQibaHCLDs8/s320/chris-hansen.jpg
May 10 10 02:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


ei Total Productions wrote:

John Jebbia wrote:
This thread really isn't about the legality of it.. there are others for that.

This thread is have you ever been contacted by a model and get the feeling its just another photographer trying to dig up dirt or get you to say something they can use against you.

Because it happens all the time.  If I post a casting call on Craigslist and include a link to my website, my casting call will be flagged simply because the scammers on craigslist don't want to have to compete with a legitimate ad.

I have no doubt people might want to dig up dirt on John.

I see. That's....damn. hmm

And I'm not doubting John, just wanted to know what made him feel that way.

May 10 10 02:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
glamour pics
Posts: 6,095
Los Angeles, California, US


Morgan Barbour wrote:
It really depends on the context. I have contacted photographers who shoot nudes that I simply adore and asked them about shooting nudes (after my birthday). It may be a case similar to mine, or possibly girls who just don't understand how taboo it is to shoot a minor nude.

Shooting minors nude isn't inherently illegal, so I really doubt it would be law enforcement; maybe other photographers (wouldn't have been my first thought, but I don't know your market).

It could well be law enforcement. Many agencies are constantly running sting operations. Or entrapment, depending on the details and your interpretation of the law. Years ago, before the Internet, the Postal Service was the biggest producer or child porn in the country. When the Service wanted to "get" someone, they would send him a sales pitch for adult porn. But they would then deliver child porn and arrest him when he signed for the sealed plain wrapper package that he thought was legal stuff.

Seems like the easiest thing to do with such requests as the OP indicates, would be to have a form letter response.

May 10 10 02:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Aussiekylie
Posts: 743
Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia


Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Why do you think its not Law Enforcement ???
They do have people working to sting people online.
Maybe its this guy
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UjjyPis4YG4/S705Y4TIu9I/AAAAAAAAA0k/XQibaHCLDs8/s320/chris-hansen.jpg

my thoughts also.

block and delete the minor.

May 10 10 02:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
glamour pics
Posts: 6,095
Los Angeles, California, US


Morgan Barbour wrote:

Ahh, I see. Yeah, that does sound fishy. hmm

Have you asked the "girl" to state his badge number and agency?

May 10 10 02:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,821
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Why do you think its not Law Enforcement ???
They do have people working to sting people online.
Maybe its this guy
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UjjyPis4YG4/S705Y4TIu9I/AAAAAAAAA0k/XQibaHCLDs8/s320/chris-hansen.jpg

Simple. Because Law Enforcement goes after the big score. Ever notice on those shows, the bait is usually under 15? It's a better conviction than 16 or 17.

May 10 10 02:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
glamour pics
Posts: 6,095
Los Angeles, California, US


ei Total Productions wrote:

John Jebbia wrote:
This thread really isn't about the legality of it.. there are others for that.

This thread is have you ever been contacted by a model and get the feeling its just another photographer trying to dig up dirt or get you to say something they can use against you.

Because it happens all the time.  If I post a casting call on Craigslist and include a link to my website, my casting call will be flagged simply because the scammers on craigslist don't want to have to compete with a legitimate ad.

I have no doubt people might want to dig up dirt on John.

This is true regarding Craigslist. Put up an ad offering TF headshots and see how many minutes it's up before it's removed.

May 10 10 02:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


glamour pics wrote:

It could well be law enforcement. Many agencies are constantly running sting operations. Or entrapment, depending on the details and your interpretation of the law. Years ago, before the Internet, the Postal Service was the biggest producer or child porn in the country. When the Service wanted to "get" someone, they would send him a sales pitch for adult porn. But they would then deliver child porn and arrest him when he signed for the sealed plain wrapper package that he thought was legal stuff.

Seems like the easiest thing to do with such requests as the OP indicates, would be to have a form letter response.

I'm sure there is a possibility, but I don't feel it's as likely as either a naive girl or, as John and others have pointed out, another photographer playing dirty. Like I said - nude photos of minors aren't illegal by default. Wouldn't they want to get him for something that was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, illegal? Or at least lead up to it - first hinting at nudes, then mentioning something more explicit?

May 10 10 02:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ethereal Pixels
Posts: 692
San Francisco, California, US


Life is too short and the risks too high for any legitimate photographer to shoot an underage person alone without a parent or legal guardian present.  I have never done it and never intend to do it.  In fact, I was doing a shoot at a very well known west coast studio last year when one of the models brought along a very successful, beautiful, and well-endowed female model friend who turned out to be 17.  She emerged from the dressing room wearing an outfit that turned a lot of heads (sorry about the pun!), but we promptly had her escorted back into the dressing room and out of the studio as soon as she produced her ID and her young age was verified.  We'll all patiently wait until she is over 18 with two pieces of photo ID. smile
May 10 10 02:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
glamour pics
Posts: 6,095
Los Angeles, California, US


Morgan Barbour wrote:

I'm sure there is a possibility, but I don't feel it's as likely as either a naive girl or, as John and others have pointed out, another photographer playing dirty. Like I said - nude photos of minors aren't illegal by default. Wouldn't they want to get him for something that was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, illegal? Or at least lead up to it - first hinting at nudes, then mentioning something more explicit?

The beautiful Ms. Barbour is, technically correct, that mere nudity of a minor is not per se illegal. However, the laws are EXTREMELY open to abuse, selective prosecution, and prosecution for political reasons. Which is why many photographers wouldn't even consider shooting risque stuff with a minor. That said, it is possible that the OP is being approached by a sincere but naive girl, or by a jealous photographer seeking to get dirt on the OP.

May 10 10 02:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
Vincent Wolff
Posts: 2,867
Chicago, Illinois, US


John Jebbia wrote:
Ever had a 16 or 17yr old model contact you wanting to shoot and it seems like they're trying to goad you into saying or doing something inappropriate?

For example, I have one who keeps popping up on my instant messenger and she goes on and on about how she'd really like to try nude work, etc.. but when I don't bite, she goes away for a couple days.

I don't think it's law enforcement trying to trap people. My gut is that it's local photographers with fake profiles trying to dig up dirt.

Morgan makes a lot of sense for her own situation, but I think, based on what you've stated, it is best to move on

May 10 10 02:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marc Damon
Posts: 6,562
Biloxi, Mississippi, US


John Jebbia wrote:
Simple. Because Law Enforcement goes after the big score. Ever notice on those shows, the bait is usually under 15? It's a better conviction than 16 or 17.

Overheard in a meeting between the mayor and police chief...
"There's a few a well known photographers around these parts that take pics of naked girls. That makes them porn producers. We're going to get one of them in a room with a naked minor so we can make an arrest and get some positive press coverage to compensate for fucking up that big drug bust last week. Give us a few days to set it up and I'll get back to you."

May 10 10 02:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


Ethereal Pixels  wrote:
Life is too short and the risks too high for any legitimate photographer to shoot an underage person alone without a parent or legal guardian present.  I have never done it and never intend to do it.  In fact, I was doing a shoot at a very well known west coast studio last year when one of the models brought along a very successful, beautiful, and well-endowed female model friend who turned out to be 17.  She emerged from the dressing room wearing an outfit that turned a lot of heads (sorry about the pun!), but we promptly had her escorted back into the dressing room and out of the studio as soon as she produced her ID and her young age was verified.  We'll all patiently wait until she is over 18 with two pieces of photo ID. smile

I've shot alone with reputable photographers. They met my mom, she signed the release, and we went off and shot. Perhaps I just have fabulous references, or perhaps they take into account that I'm a sophomore in college and it's at times difficult for me to have a parent present.

May 10 10 02:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
Vincent Wolff
Posts: 2,867
Chicago, Illinois, US


Morgan Barbour wrote:

I've shot alone with reputable photographers. They met my mom, she signed the release, and we went off and shot. Perhaps I just have fabulous references, or perhaps they take into account that I'm a sophomore in college and it's at times difficult for me to have a parent present.

you're a sophomore? wow--smart girl!

May 10 10 02:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


glamour pics wrote:
The beautiful Ms. Barbour is, technically correct, that mere nudity of a minor is not per se illegal. However, the laws are EXTREMELY open to abuse, selective prosecution, and prosecution for political reasons. Which is why many photographers wouldn't even consider shooting risque stuff with a minor. That said, it is possible that the OP is being approached by a sincere but naive girl, or by a jealous photographer seeking to get dirt on the OP.

I know that (and I've stated that earlier on in this thread smile). I've also said that shooting a  minor nude is taboo and that I would never even contemplate asking a photographer to risk his or her reptutaion for the sake of a few photographs. I'm just pointing out that, as you said, it isn't illegal per se. I'm just thinking that, were it law enforcement, they would go for something that they knew would stick. Saying, "Yes, I will do/shoot [insert illegal activity/content here]" is far different than, "Yes, I will shoot nudes of you."

May 10 10 02:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


Vincent Wolff wrote:

you're a sophomore? wow--smart girl!

Yes sir. smile

May 10 10 02:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


Marc Damon wrote:

Overheard in a meeting between the mayor and police chief...
"There's a few a well known photographers around these parts that take pics of naked girls. That makes them porn producers. We're going to get one of them in a room with a naked minor so we can make an arrest and get some positive press coverage to compensate for fucking up that big drug bust last week. Give us a few days to set it up and I'll get back to you."

Okay...when you put it that way, yeah I can see that angle. I keep forgetting most automatically think nudity = porn (not you, just people in general).

May 10 10 02:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
Vincent Wolff
Posts: 2,867
Chicago, Illinois, US


Morgan Barbour wrote:

Yes sir. smile

I'm impressed....

May 10 10 02:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marc Damon
Posts: 6,562
Biloxi, Mississippi, US


Morgan Barbour wrote:
Okay...when you put it that way, yeah I can see that angle. I keep forgetting most automatically think nudity = porn (not you, just people in general).

yep. They're not looking for a conviction. All they want is an arrest and some good press. A conviction or a guilty plea bargain is just the cherry on top of the sundae.

May 10 10 02:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rodney Smith
Posts: 29
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Why do you think its not Law Enforcement ???
They do have people working to sting people online.
Maybe its this guy
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UjjyPis4YG4/S705Y4TIu9I/AAAAAAAAA0k/XQibaHCLDs8/s320/chris-hansen.jpg

LOL.  This is hillarious because I watch his show every Sunday night.  Regardless of if it is "legal" or not you're going to feel really funny when he walks into that kitchen and you're only holding your camera.  Just pick an adult.

May 10 10 03:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Pegg
Posts: 1,849
Weymouth, England, United Kingdom


I've been contacted by this 14 year old girl and she wants me to shoot her in the nude. We have arranged a shoot date and now she tells me she is a federal agent.
How cool is that, only 14 and already a federal agent!
May 10 10 03:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 43,371
Salinas, California, US


Morgan Barbour wrote:

Okay...when you put it that way, yeah I can see that angle. I keep forgetting most automatically think nudity = porn (not you, just people in general).

That mentality of "nudity = porn" has caused more than a few photographers to be arrested, but in most cases the defendant is found "not guilty."   An interesting case was that of Jock Sturges who is a published photographer arrested in San Francisco years ago.  It never even when to trial as any potential charges discussed were not even brought forward.  They kept a lot of his work that was on computers though and it hurt his reputation some, but you can still buy his books from any major chain bookstore.  Yes, his images have naked children in them!  "So what?"  I agree!  lol

Here is a complementary article about him; http://www.fashionphotographyblog.com/2 … cksturges/

May 10 10 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Morgan Barbour
Posts: 6,504
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


Patrick Walberg wrote:

That mentality of "nudity = porn" has caused more than a few photographers to be arrested, but in most cases the defendant is found "not guilty."   An interesting case was that of Jock Sturges who is a published photographer arrested in San Francisco years ago.  It never even when to trial as any potential charges discussed were not even brought forward.  They kept a lot of his work that was on computers though and it hurt his reputation some, but you can still buy his books from any major chain bookstore.  Yes, his images have naked children in them!  "So what?"  I agree!  lol

Here is a complementary article about him; http://www.fashionphotographyblog.com/2 … cksturges/

I adore Jock's work.

May 10 10 03:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 43,371
Salinas, California, US


Rodney Smith wrote:
LOL.  This is hillarious because I watch his show every Sunday night.  Regardless of if it is "legal" or not you're going to feel really funny when he walks into that kitchen and you're only holding your camera.  Just pick an adult.

I have NEVER seen a photographer get busted on his show!  Police officers, priests, rabbis, district attorneys, along with other occupations, but never a photographer.  Interesting, huh?   I guess we are too smart for that!  lol

The district attorney was in Texas, and he blew his brains out when they were about to serve a warrant on him.  (he did not go to the home of the set up) They found a lot of child porn on his computer.  The show ended for good at that point.  I don't know that they still go out doing this trap and catch thing anymore.  They tried it on credit card and ID thieves but were unable to do anything as most criminal rings operate outside of this country.

No matter what the occupation, not all people are "good!"

May 10 10 03:12 pm  Link  Quote 
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