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Photographer
Raven Shutley
Posts: 136
Atlanta, Georgia, US


I'm shooting a 21 yr old model on Wednesday on a completely TF shoot, and she asked if I'd want her sister to model, as well.  I said it depended on her look and her age. {The shoot is a fairy/fantasy shoot, so nothing inappropriate.} She has a good look, but I've found out that she's 15.  Since her parents won't be there to give consent or anything, should I just skip the 15 yr old this time?

Do you have to have parents there?  I know it's a good idea.  Does she have to sign anything if the rest of us aren't?
Jul 23 10 07:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MEK Photography
Posts: 6,571
Westminster, Maryland, US


Not having at least one of the parents there for the 15yo would be a mistake.
Jul 23 10 07:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photo Visions
Posts: 1,034
Cape Coral, Florida, US


MEK Photography wrote:
Not having at least one of the parents there for the 15yo would be a mistake.

+1 million

Jul 23 10 07:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brian Baybo
Posts: 1,417
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Seriously? No adults, no minors. Plain and simple
Jul 23 10 07:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


Call the parents and ask them if they have a problem with it. If not, shoot it. If they do, then don't.
Jul 23 10 07:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Avalos Photography
Posts: 1,002
Woodland, California, US


If you know the parents, just get consent if not.  Get consent=).
Jul 23 10 07:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael DBA Expressions
Posts: 3,137
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


First of all, her signature (ie, the 15 year old's) on ANYTHING is completely meaningless. She is not old enough to sign anything with any legal significance.

If you and her sister are shooting something, the presence of her sister is probably all you need, unless of course, the two should conspire against you for a big shakedown. (How deep are your pockets? And who would be so evil???)

This is entirely your call. If your intentions are innocent and your resulting photos squeeky clean, you should be fine, although I think I'd go just a little out of my way to make sure the parents saw the resulting photos. Heck, they might like them enough to even buy a few.
Jul 23 10 07:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brian Baybo
Posts: 1,417
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


MMDesign wrote:
Call the parents and ask them if they have a problem with it. If not, shoot it. If they do, then don't.

Calling the parents for permission is NOT a resolution. One of them needs to be present. I don't know the the older sibling would represent a "Legal Guardian".

Jul 23 10 07:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gaze at Photography
Posts: 4,371
Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, US


I wouldn't shoot my neighbor's 15 yr old without the parents there.  Permission or not.  No adult, no shoot...  Period.


No way.
Jul 23 10 07:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


Brian Baybo wrote:

Calling the parents for permission is NOT a resolution. One of them needs to be present. I don't know the the older sibling would represent a "Legal Guardian".

You guys are just waaaaaayyyyyyy too anal. Next you'll be telling me that a parent needs to be present for Senior photos if they're under 18.

Jul 23 10 07:18 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,712
San Francisco, California, US


Golly gosh, for an age appropriate shoot, I wouldn't think twice about a TF, so long as I spoke to the partens in advance and they signed the appropriate paperwork.  I am way less paranoid about minors than most of you.

There is a cavat to this thread though ... in California, you can't do a commercial shoot with a minor under 16 without a prent present.  If the model was 16 or 17, there would be absolutely no issue.  At 15, if you were booking and paying her, then you would also need a parent (and a work permit) to be legal.  at 15, if you booked her, there would be an issue.

These, however, are labor laws in California.  They don't apply to things like senior portratis where the subject is hiring you.   There are no laws preventing you from taking someone's picture, just hiring them for a commercial shoot.

I am totally unfamiliar with Georgia law so I have no idea what the labor standards are there.  Likewise, one always dances around the definition of what is commercial and not commercial.  Again those, these are labor issues, not criminal issues.

As a practical matter, I don't shoot minors without a parent in most situations, but in this case, her 21 year old sister wants to bring her.  I would probaby have no problem with a TF shoot for fun if I had spoken to the parent.
Jul 23 10 07:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photos by Jack Heniford
Posts: 405
York, South Carolina, US


That's not being asnal that's just being pragmatic. A photo shoot's not worth legal trouble.
Jul 23 10 07:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brian Baybo
Posts: 1,417
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


MMDesign wrote:

You guys are just waaaaaayyyyyyy too anal. Next you'll be telling me that a parent needs to be present for Senior photos if they're under 18.

Anal? How do you figure? Most states do not allow photography of minors without the parents or legal guardian present, TF or commercial. Check your local laws before you cry "anal". "Professional" comes to mind.

Jul 23 10 07:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
K Mac Photo
Posts: 42
Mashpee, Massachusetts, US


With the way people are today - If you have consent from a parent (but not present) and the over 18 sister is present - I would make sure you have an assistant / witness you know present as well. You will need a parent to sign a minor model release or with a written note from a parent authorizing the sister to sign you will be covered.

Not to say you need to be but BETTER SAFE than SORRY is my rule.
Jul 23 10 07:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,524
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Brian Baybo wrote:

Calling the parents for permission is NOT a resolution. One of them needs to be present. I don't know the the older sibling would represent a "Legal Guardian".

under what law does a parent have to be present?  By your definition, my kids could never go to McDonald without me. or buy stuff at a store...or have their pics taken at a house party...

Jul 23 10 07:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gaze at Photography
Posts: 4,371
Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, US


With me it's not a legal issue, but the perception of the issue of the genreal public or other's in the industry.

I don't fear shooting a 15 yr old with her big sister there.  I have the fear of a bad perception of people not knowing the sister was there, without a parent, etc.  It goes up on her Facebook and bang, the phone starts ringing....

"The people's perception is the only reality."
Jul 23 10 07:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brian Baybo
Posts: 1,417
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

under what law does a parent have to be present?  By your definition, my kids could never go to McDonald without me. or buy stuff at a store...or have their pics taken at a house party...

I believe it's called ethics and professionalism and all your "points"  have nothing to do with this subject. Besides, you're in Canada. Not the US

Jul 23 10 07:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


Brian Baybo wrote:
Anal? How do you figure? Most states do not allow photography of minors without the parents or legal guardian present, TF or commercial. Check your local laws before you cry "anal". "Professional" comes to mind.

Most of you on here have heard of one or two people who got into trouble shooting minors and have decided that no minor should ever be photographed unless it's by their parent or with their parent hovering over the photographer's shoulder. That's ridiculous. I suppose you think it's wrong for their friends to take photos of them as well?

If it's a photograph that is in no way risqué, or could be construed as risqué, then there really is no problem, especially if you talk to the parents beforehand.

It has nothing to do with "professionalism" (wow, how'd that word get used on mm?), it has to do with something as simple as common sense.

Jul 23 10 07:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Steve Hayward UK
Posts: 414
Guildford, England, United Kingdom


Brian Baybo wrote:
Seriously? No adults, no minors. Plain and simple

No adults? What is the 21 year old if she's not an adult?

Jul 23 10 07:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Har Marshal
Posts: 263
Cary, North Carolina, US


A legal adult will be present, even if she isn't the legal guardian who can sign a release for the minor model.

I have worked in almost every state in the South and none of them have any laws requiring a parent to be present while photographing a minor.  This is different from requiring a parent to sign contracts.  Minor models who work through agencies have their agents acting on the parents' behalf. 

I've shot everything from pre-schoolers sitting on Santa's lap to kids at camps and field trips to teen models without the parents being present.  Neither the schools and agents who hired me nor the state agency that published daycare photos in a SmartStart brochure broke any laws, nor did I.  This fear of minors as photographic jailbait is a tad overblown.
Jul 23 10 07:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gaze at Photography
Posts: 4,371
Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, US


Steve Hayward UK wrote:

No adults? What is the 21 year old if she's not an adult?

It's not what she IS, it's what she ISN'T, and that's a legal parent or guardian, which is the terminology used in the US when it comes to permissions/contracts with minors.

Jul 23 10 07:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brian Baybo
Posts: 1,417
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


MMDesign wrote:

Most of you on here have heard of one or two people who got into trouble shooting minors and have decided that no minor should ever be photographed unless it's by their parent or with their parent hovering over the photographer's shoulder. That's ridiculous. I suppose you think it's wrong for their friends to take photos of them as well?

If it's a photograph that is in no way risqué, or could be construed as risqué, then there really is no problem, especially if you talk to the parents beforehand.

It has nothing to do with "professionalism" (wow, how'd that word get used on mm?), it has to do with something as simple as common sense.

Check your state laws regarding photographing minors. Talking to the parents won't completely cover your ass. They should be present. I've shot kids portraits and the parents have never just dropped them off. And there does need to be a release drawn if there is ANY intention of "usage".

Jul 23 10 07:39 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Daphne Damage
Posts: 610
Altoona, Alabama, US


Raven Shutley wrote:
Do you have to have parents there?

Yes.

Jul 23 10 07:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Lynch
Posts: 2,482
Bowie, Maryland, US


Brian Baybo wrote:

I believe it's called ethics and professionalism and all your "points"  have nothing to do with this subject. Besides, you're in Canada. Not the US

Which is it?  A state law or a matter of ethics?  Pick a story and stick with it.  You are one making the ridiculous assertion.  Cite a single statute, in any state, that makes taking the two headshots that are in my portfolio of the girl that was 16 at the time illegal, because not only were her parents not present, they weren't even in the same state. 

Not that it matters, but I am in the US, so you will have to find another excuse if you want to duck my question.

Jul 23 10 07:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GM Photography
Posts: 6,045
Olympia, Washington, US


If you want to get a signed release and use the minor's photos, then you should have a parent or legal guardian present to sign the paperwork. 

If it's an "age appropriate" shoot and the adult sister is there and you're just helping out the younger sister and giving her a chance to try out modeling, I don't see what the big deal is.
Jul 23 10 07:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gaze at Photography
Posts: 4,371
Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, US


Har Marshal wrote:
A legal adult will be present, even if she isn't the legal guardian who can sign a release for the minor model.

I have worked in almost every state in the South and none of them have any laws requiring a parent to be present while photographing a minor.  This is different from requiring a parent to sign contracts.  Minor models who work through agencies have their agents acting on the parents' behalf. 

I've shot everything from pre-schoolers sitting on Santa's lap to kids at camps and field trips to teen models without the parents being present.  Neither the schools and agents who hired me nor the state agency that published daycare photos in a SmartStart brochure broke any laws, nor did I.  This fear of minors as photographic jailbait is a tad overblown.

Both cases are when parents have signed permission for the school and agency to do that. 

I don't know of an instance where it's OK to shoot a minor without permission of the parents in writting.

Jul 23 10 07:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


Brian Baybo wrote:

Check your state laws regarding photographing minors. Talking to the parents won't completely cover your ass. They should be present. I've shot kids portraits and the parents have never just dropped them off. And there does need to be a release drawn if there is ANY intention of "usage".

Believe what you will.

Jul 23 10 07:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


David Gaze wrote:

Both cases are when parents have signed permission for the school and agency to do that. 

I don't know of an instance where it's OK to shoot a minor without permission of the parents in writting.

"Mom, I'm going to that party at Susie's, I'll call if you anyone wants to take a snapshot of me so you can come over! Oh, and be sure to bring a few model releases because you know my idiot friends never carry any."

Jul 23 10 07:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MLRPhoto
Posts: 5,753
Olivet, Michigan, US


Brian Baybo wrote:
Seriously? No adults, no minors. Plain and simple

21= adult.

For me, I'd need a release signed by a parent, the sister present, and then I'd use my judgment based on the older sister's style, port, and reputation / demeanor.  I did something similar, when the older model was known for modesty.  It went very nicely.  It was also shot entirely in public places.  Not the ideal, but workable, as long as you keep the shoot "age appropriate" and everything else fits.  It also seems like an excellent occasion for an independent MUA to be present.

Jul 23 10 07:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Unikcreations
Posts: 20
Signal Hill, California, US


Take this advice, no parent no shoot if you don't this could cost you a lot of headaches and Money not to mention end up being a Sex Offender for the rest of your life and having to register everywhere you go..
Jul 23 10 07:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Magic Image Photography
Posts: 3,606
Temple City, California, US


I shot two sisters once just once and never again. One sister was 21 and the other was 16 years old. The sister signed the release as adult parent I got a few emails from the mother wanting to take me to court for takeing pictures of her young daughter. We did a Catwoman and Pinguin look something very kewl and sweet the 16 year old was the Pinguin and the sister Catwoman. All the 16 year old wore was this Tuxedo top and ruffled white panties and fishnets and bow tie which covered any private areas but the mothe thought it was porn cus the panties showed ass cleavage. I had to take all of her images down and since it was not signed by her.
Jul 23 10 07:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gaze at Photography
Posts: 4,371
Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, US


MMDesign wrote:

"Mom, I'm going to that party at Susie's, I'll call if you anyone wants to take a snapshot of me so you can come over! Oh, and be sure to bring a few model releases because you know my idiot friends never carry any."

What does THAT have to do with anything?

Jul 23 10 07:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
dklee studio photo
Posts: 2,587
Richmond, Virginia, US


where the heck is everyone getting the don't shoot if parents are not around!!  seriously!!! i think everyone here thinks oh gawd, the model is 15, the photographer is trying to get her naked.

I have done many shoots where the model is under 18.  I do it as a test.  if the images come out well, and i have this awesome concept, i will go and do the release forms.  why even bother with that if the images suck?

I think everyone who is telling the OP to not shoot her, better cool off for a bit.  what is the sister is the next kate moss? and doesn't realize it?  she is there, you can just shoot and see how it goes.

Everlastcreations wrote:
Take this advice, no parent no shoot if you don't this could cost you a lot of headaches and Money not to mention end up being a Sex Offender for the rest of your life and having to register everywhere you go..

yes, cause every photographer shoots your style?

Jul 23 10 07:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


David Gaze wrote:

What does THAT have to do with anything?

"I don't know of an instance where it's OK to shoot a minor without permission of the parents in writting."

About the same thing as this statement.

Jul 23 10 07:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Har Marshal
Posts: 263
Cary, North Carolina, US


David Gaze wrote:
Both cases are when parents have signed permission for the school and agency to do that. 

I don't know of an instance where it's OK to shoot a minor without permission of the parents in writting.

No written permission from parents was involved with any of these school situations.  Just last night I both photographed and videoed my daughter in a drama camp play, as did pretty much every other parent in the theater.  I did not sign any permission for other parents to photograph my daughter nor was I asked to sign anything for theirs.  On July 4 my daughter was a costumed interpretor at the State Capitol and dozens, if not hundreds, of people took her photo - including at least one professional photographer who posted them on her website.

There are really very few instances where there is a legal need to get parental permission in writing to simply photograph a minor.

Jul 23 10 07:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FlirtynFun Photography
Posts: 12,877
Houston, Texas, US


#1 it IS a good idea to have parents there.
#2 there AREN'T any laws prohibiting you from photographing children.
#3 you'll find that any time you post a question like this, hundreds of "wannabe Internet lawyers" come out of the woodwork.
#4 try posting the question "My car is making a strange clinking noise...what should I do?" and you'll find hundreds of makeshift mechanics telling you to either swap the engine or change the muffler bearings.
Jul 23 10 07:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,524
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Brian Baybo wrote:

I believe it's called ethics and professionalism and all your "points"  have nothing to do with this subject. Besides, you're in Canada. Not the US

Great! you have no clue and you decide to say that we don't have ethics and professionalism in Canada?  good one big_smile

under what ethical guideline or professional tenet are you pulling this one out of?

Jul 23 10 07:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cardillo Photography
Posts: 1,360
Palm Coast, Florida, US


I am probably going to get shot for this.....
I normally do not shoot minors for TF without a parent present but her 21 year old sister should suffice.  If you are worried about somethiong happening later on (getting sued), then make sure you have another person present for your protection. (witness)    OR
Why not just have the younger sister pay you for the shoot....Say just a dollar.  Give her a receipt and a few pictures for her time.  She would then be hiring YOU.
Jul 23 10 07:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Harold Rose
Posts: 2,925
Calhoun, Georgia, US


Raven Shutley wrote:
I'm shooting a 21 yr old model on Wednesday on a completely TF shoot, and she asked if I'd want her sister to model, as well.  I said it depended on her look and her age. {The shoot is a fairy/fantasy shoot, so nothing inappropriate.} She has a good look, but I've found out that she's 15.  Since her parents won't be there to give consent or anything, should I just skip the 15 yr old this time?

Do you have to have parents there?  I know it's a good idea.  Does she have to sign anything if the rest of us aren't?

Did a see a LasVegas  address.. Are you over 18?

Jul 23 10 07:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,524
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
#1 it IS a good idea to have parents there.
#2 there AREN'T any laws prohibiting you from photographing children.
#3 you'll find that any time you post a question like this, hundreds of "wannabe Internet lawyers" come out of the woodwork.
#4 try posting the question "My car is making a strange clinking noise...what should I do?" and you'll find hundreds of makeshift mechanics telling you to either swap the engine or change the muffler bearings.

#4 or that the muffler needs to be RAW not jpg
as for #2 I'm just dumbfounded.  forget the law.  ppl are saying that somehow being a 'professional' which is hard enough to define in the first place, means that their act of taking pictures or video is somehow different from other  people's use of (often) the same gear.

Jul 23 10 07:57 am  Link  Quote 
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