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Retoucher
Emilian Dechev Retouch
Posts: 62
Sofia, Sofija grad, Bulgaria


Is TF retouching good or bad for the business?

Is TF retouching spoiling our clients, or is it a good way to build portfolio and relations?

The main source of potential clients on MM is the "casting call" section. I understand how important it is for a retoucher to build portfolio and relations, but I am also amazed to how many "TF VS paid" casting calls are being made. It's like 90% of the people expect someone to do their images for free. Is that actually happening?
Aug 06 11 04:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Digital Hands
Posts: 925
Milton, Ontario, Canada


TF is good if you want to learn more and try new tools to work on.

To me,

TF = 5-10 min of work
PAID = over 15 min of work.
Aug 06 11 04:41 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
J Strath
Posts: 908
Los Angeles, California, US


Whether I'm being paid for something or not, if it's going to be seen by an audience with my name on it, I'm going to make sure it's good, so I don't really care how long it's going to take me. 

Also, people get what they pay for, and if they're willing to settle for "lesser" free work, then that's their prerogative.  I don't think it hurts the "business" as a whole.  There are still many people out there who are willing to, and can afford to hire retouchers.  There just happens to be more that can't or don't want to.  Remember, this is just ModelMayhem, and a lot of people just do this kind of stuff as a hobby.
Aug 06 11 04:48 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Daniel Meadows
Posts: 721
Manchester, England, United Kingdom


The real end clients aren't actually allowed to make a profile on MM, it's in the ToS. So what you have is thousands of service providers arguing about who gets paid. The real clients are elsewhere, yes TF is good, don't expect to make money here, build your book and relationships with photographers and then together go for the real clients, the businesses that need you and will pay your rent, because they aren't on Model Mayhem.

TF isn't harming anything because commercial jobs come with a fee, the only business model it harms is the one where we try and make money off each other on a website.
Aug 06 11 04:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GDML77
Posts: 1,133
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


Well, to me the answer is very simple:

1) The real market:

Most photographers here have no profit with their photos. Photos that can be sold are rare. Its a minority. That minority is reserved to be worked by highly advanced and skilled people, not by anyone who decides to put a profile in MM.


2) Self notion of value:

I see in every single forum a ton of smart asses (models, muas, photographers, retouchers), who cry for not getting paid which they find very unfair, you take a look at their portfolio, and you wonder... Pay for what? For that? Why would someone pay you? Its ridiculous, theres a zillion more people at your level, and another zillion above.

It is very easy to be self-satisfied, and look at your own work and be amazed by it, but, a lot of people never had a good reality check to come back to planet Earth and be told, hello, you are just a beginner or not an amazing talent worth of money as you think you are.


So all together, yes, I think TF is a wonderful solution for those who are in need of practice, independently of what they think of themselves. If someone is not getting paid work, its because they haven't TFed enough to deserve it. Being humble, keep you feet connected to planet Earth, accepting and looking for criticism is the way to go...

I been doing photography for almost 2 years now, not even once I have attempted to make money from it, because I know that I am not there yet. Still, you go around, and I do talk to people whos skills are even lower than mine, and they think I should pay them, WTF? This includes starting MUAs, models with 3 or 4 photos shot by uncle Bob, retouchers who spam photographers with friend requests to be noticed, but who did 2 or 3 skin DBs and some ridiculous coloring's and believe thats worth money....

So yes, for fuck sakes. TF is healthy, human, shows more about the people who offers it, than about the ones who insist in pretending to be more than they are.
Aug 06 11 05:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GDML77
Posts: 1,133
Bristol, England, United Kingdom


Daniel Meadows wrote:
TF isn't harming anything because commercial jobs come with a fee, the only business model it harms is the one where we try and make money off each other on a website.

This

Aug 06 11 05:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DraganSutic
Posts: 304
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


GDML77 wrote:
Well, to me the answer is very simple:

1) The real market:

Most photographers here have no profit with their photos. Photos that can be sold are rare. Its a minority. That minority is reserved to be worked by highly advanced and skilled people, not by anyone who decides to put a profile in MM.


2) Self notion of value:

I see in every single forum a ton of smart asses (models, muas, photographers, retouchers), who cry for not getting paid which they find very unfair, you take a look at their portfolio, and you wonder... Pay for what? For that? Why would someone pay you? Its ridiculous, theres a zillion more people at your level, and another zillion above.

It is very easy to be self-satisfied, and look at your own work and be amazed by it, but, a lot of people never had a good reality check to come back to planet Earth and be told, hello, you are just a beginner or not an amazing talent worth of money as you think you are.


So all together, yes, I think TF is a wonderful solution for those who are in need of practice, independently of what they think of themselves. If someone is not getting paid work, its because they haven't TFed enough to deserve it. Being humble, keep you feet connected to planet Earth, accepting and looking for criticism is the way to go...

I been doing photography for almost 2 years now, not even once I have attempted to make money from it, because I know that I am not there yet. Still, you go around, and I do talk to people whos skills are even lower than mine, and they think I should pay them, WTF? This includes starting MUAs, models with 3 or 4 photos shot by uncle Bob, retouchers who spam photographers with friend requests to be noticed, but who did 2 or 3 skin DBs and some ridiculous coloring's and believe thats worth money....

So yes, for fuck sakes. TF is healthy, human, shows more about the people who offers it, than about the ones who insist in pretending to be more than they are.

+1

Aug 06 11 06:06 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Cecil Evans
Posts: 130
Port of Spain, Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago


I asked a retoucher friend of mine who is way more experienced than I about this same thing and his response was that if it greatly enhances your portfolio or gets you a tearsheet....go for it! You have to use your discretion and make sure that your decision was good.
Aug 06 11 09:24 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Emilian Dechev Retouch
Posts: 62
Sofia, Sofija grad, Bulgaria


I agree with everything, but I dont think we should not "make money off each other on a website". On the contrary.

As there are zillions of photographers out there and most of them, the quality retouch is what makes a difference. Most of all, the photog is investing in his own free time.

In the end everybody gets what they paid for.

Caribbean Retouch wrote:
I asked a retoucher friend of mine who is way more experienced than I about this same thing and his response was that if it greatly enhances your portfolio or gets you a tearsheet....go for it! You have to use your discretion and make sure that your decision was good.

+1

Aug 06 11 10:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bob Roth
Posts: 445
Rowland Heights, California, US


GDML77 wrote:
Well, to me the answer is very simple:

1) The real market:

Most photographers here have no profit with their photos. Photos that can be sold are rare. Its a minority. That minority is reserved to be worked by highly advanced and skilled people, not by anyone who decides to put a profile in MM.


2) Self notion of value:

I see in every single forum a ton of smart asses (models, muas, photographers, retouchers), who cry for not getting paid which they find very unfair, you take a look at their portfolio, and you wonder... Pay for what? For that? Why would someone pay you? Its ridiculous, theres a zillion more people at your level, and another zillion above.

It is very easy to be self-satisfied, and look at your own work and be amazed by it, but, a lot of people never had a good reality check to come back to planet Earth and be told, hello, you are just a beginner or not an amazing talent worth of money as you think you are.


So all together, yes, I think TF is a wonderful solution for those who are in need of practice, independently of what they think of themselves. If someone is not getting paid work, its because they haven't TFed enough to deserve it. Being humble, keep you feet connected to planet Earth, accepting and looking for criticism is the way to go...

I been doing photography for almost 2 years now, not even once I have attempted to make money from it, because I know that I am not there yet. Still, you go around, and I do talk to people whos skills are even lower than mine, and they think I should pay them, WTF? This includes starting MUAs, models with 3 or 4 photos shot by uncle Bob, retouchers who spam photographers with friend requests to be noticed, but who did 2 or 3 skin DBs and some ridiculous coloring's and believe thats worth money....

So yes, for fuck sakes. TF is healthy, human, shows more about the people who offers it, than about the ones who insist in pretending to be more than they are.

Very well written and informative.

Aug 08 11 10:01 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Pari Retouch
Posts: 693
Nāshik, Maharashtra, India


GDML77 wrote:
Well, to me the answer is very simple:

1) The real market:

Most photographers here have no profit with their photos. Photos that can be sold are rare. Its a minority. That minority is reserved to be worked by highly advanced and skilled people, not by anyone who decides to put a profile in MM.


2) Self notion of value:

I see in every single forum a ton of smart asses (models, muas, photographers, retouchers), who cry for not getting paid which they find very unfair, you take a look at their portfolio, and you wonder... Pay for what? For that? Why would someone pay you? Its ridiculous, theres a zillion more people at your level, and another zillion above.

It is very easy to be self-satisfied, and look at your own work and be amazed by it, but, a lot of people never had a good reality check to come back to planet Earth and be told, hello, you are just a beginner or not an amazing talent worth of money as you think you are.


So all together, yes, I think TF is a wonderful solution for those who are in need of practice, independently of what they think of themselves. If someone is not getting paid work, its because they haven't TFed enough to deserve it. Being humble, keep you feet connected to planet Earth, accepting and looking for criticism is the way to go...

I been doing photography for almost 2 years now, not even once I have attempted to make money from it, because I know that I am not there yet. Still, you go around, and I do talk to people whos skills are even lower than mine, and they think I should pay them, WTF? This includes starting MUAs, models with 3 or 4 photos shot by uncle Bob, retouchers who spam photographers with friend requests to be noticed, but who did 2 or 3 skin DBs and some ridiculous coloring's and believe thats worth money....

So yes, for fuck sakes. TF is healthy, human, shows more about the people who offers it, than about the ones who insist in pretending to be more than they are.

Very true, this is a must read for everyone.

Thanks for writing this smile

BTW, after reading this I really wanted to see your folio but after reading your bio I guess you have removed it. Anyways hope it see it some other day wink

Aug 08 11 10:39 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Nienna1990
Posts: 568
Tel Aviv-Yafo, Tel Aviv, Israel


TF with people you think you can gain something from collaborating with them, if its good images for portfolio or chance for work in the future.

^^
Aug 08 11 11:12 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Alexander Rybachev
Posts: 70
Samara, Samara, Russia


Excuse me, but who could explain to me what does TF retouching means? Is it free retouching? Am I right? Thx smile
Apr 23 13 11:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 707
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain


Alexander Rybachev wrote:
Excuse me, but who could explain to me what does TF retouching means? Is it free retouching? Am I right? Thx smile

Trade For... in the retouching world trading for images to use in your portfolio

Yes, it is free retouching!!

In my opinion you have to be very selective on your TF as there are millions of people expecting you to be working for free all the time!! This being said... there is a lot to gain on the right TF free job!!

Apr 24 13 02:07 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Alexey Adamitsky
Posts: 226
Minsk, Minsk, Belarus


Alexander Rybachev wrote:
Is it free retouching?

No, it's not. It's a trade in value. Your time and skill for images that you can use to your benefit. Usually portfolio use. Sometime there are other reasons to do trade work, except getting images, but still you should get some value in return.

If you get no value when you trade your services then it's free work and you probably shouldn't do it.

Apr 24 13 02:15 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 707
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain


Alexey Adamitsky wrote:
No, it's not. It's a trade in value. Your time and skill for images that you can use to your benefit. Usually portfolio use. Sometime there are other reasons to do trade work, except getting images, but still you should get some value in return.

If you get no value when you trade your services then it's free work and you probably should do it.

Alexey, I think he meant free as money... or at least that's the way I did interpret the question!! :-)

Apr 24 13 02:17 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Alexey Adamitsky
Posts: 226
Minsk, Minsk, Belarus


The Invisible Touch wrote:
Alexey, I think he meant free as money... or at least that's the way I did interpret the question!! :-)

Maybe, but I answered to the question. If the question really was about getting paid, then yes in most cases it means no monetary compensation is involved.

Apr 24 13 02:21 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Alexander Rybachev
Posts: 70
Samara, Samara, Russia


The Invisible Touch wrote:
Alexey Adamitsky wrote:

Thank you both.

Apr 24 13 03:49 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Stephanie M Retoucher
Posts: 276
Portland, Maine, US


I think TF can certainly be a good thing. I don't advertise myself very often for trade work (I get enough cold messages from people asking anyway), but if I find myself wanting to add something new to my portfolio or practice a new technique, trade work is a great way to do that.
Apr 24 13 10:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Oscar Partida
Posts: 729
San Diego, California, US


GDML77 wrote:
Well, to me the answer is very simple:

1) The real market:

Most photographers here have no profit with their photos. Photos that can be sold are rare. Its a minority. That minority is reserved to be worked by highly advanced and skilled people, not by anyone who decides to put a profile in MM.


2) Self notion of value:

I see in every single forum a ton of smart asses (models, muas, photographers, retouchers), who cry for not getting paid which they find very unfair, you take a look at their portfolio, and you wonder... Pay for what? For that? Why would someone pay you? Its ridiculous, theres a zillion more people at your level, and another zillion above.

It is very easy to be self-satisfied, and look at your own work and be amazed by it, but, a lot of people never had a good reality check to come back to planet Earth and be told, hello, you are just a beginner or not an amazing talent worth of money as you think you are.


So all together, yes, I think TF is a wonderful solution for those who are in need of practice, independently of what they think of themselves. If someone is not getting paid work, its because they haven't TFed enough to deserve it. Being humble, keep you feet connected to planet Earth, accepting and looking for criticism is the way to go...

I been doing photography for almost 2 years now, not even once I have attempted to make money from it, because I know that I am not there yet. Still, you go around, and I do talk to people whos skills are even lower than mine, and they think I should pay them, WTF? This includes starting MUAs, models with 3 or 4 photos shot by uncle Bob, retouchers who spam photographers with friend requests to be noticed, but who did 2 or 3 skin DBs and some ridiculous coloring's and believe thats worth money....

So yes, for fuck sakes. TF is healthy, human, shows more about the people who offers it, than about the ones who insist in pretending to be more than they are.

+1

Apr 24 13 11:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


TFP is good medicine...
Apr 24 13 11:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sentimental-SINtimental
Posts: 1,314
Castle Rock, Washington, US


Stop replying to a thread that is over 2 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Apr 24 13 04:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jose Deida
Posts: 1,133
BLANDON, Pennsylvania, US


big_smile

GDML77 wrote:
Well, to me the answer is very simple:

1) The real market:

Most photographers here have no profit with their photos. Photos that can be sold are rare. Its a minority. That minority is reserved to be worked by highly advanced and skilled people, not by anyone who decides to put a profile in MM.


2) Self notion of value:

I see in every single forum a ton of smart asses (models, muas, photographers, retouchers), who cry for not getting paid which they find very unfair, you take a look at their portfolio, and you wonder... Pay for what? For that? Why would someone pay you? Its ridiculous, theres a zillion more people at your level, and another zillion above.

It is very easy to be self-satisfied, and look at your own work and be amazed by it, but, a lot of people never had a good reality check to come back to planet Earth and be told, hello, you are just a beginner or not an amazing talent worth of money as you think you are.


So all together, yes, I think TF is a wonderful solution for those who are in need of practice, independently of what they think of themselves. If someone is not getting paid work, its because they haven't TFed enough to deserve it. Being humble, keep you feet connected to planet Earth, accepting and looking for criticism is the way to go...

I been doing photography for almost 2 years now, not even once I have attempted to make money from it, because I know that I am not there yet. Still, you go around, and I do talk to people whos skills are even lower than mine, and they think I should pay them, WTF? This includes starting MUAs, models with 3 or 4 photos shot by uncle Bob, retouchers who spam photographers with friend requests to be noticed, but who did 2 or 3 skin DBs and some ridiculous coloring's and believe thats worth money....

So yes, for fuck sakes. TF is healthy, human, shows more about the people who offers it, than about the ones who insist in pretending to be more than they are.

Apr 24 13 07:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
retouchbysui
Posts: 99
London, England, United Kingdom


TF is good if the photographer is well known and also great photo/model and shoot.

And if its for a high end magazine,why not?

But after that, its up to you if you want to continue it or change your quote to paid only.
Apr 24 13 07:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
sbourson
Posts: 540
Paris, Île-de-France, France


I think peoples will never paid you for somethink you never done ..

TF is good way to learn, try new thinks, explore, try and show what you can do
TF is an other way to meet new people

MAny time clients work is SHIT work , flat commercial nothink creatif because it's risk and they want result and quantity. Personal TF work it's some times take risk , explore light and new idear.
Apr 25 13 12:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


It's not worth it on a TFP, that is when you make money on a TFP
Apr 25 13 12:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


Sentimental-SINtimental wrote:
Stop replying to a thread that is over 2 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Say's you lol

Apr 25 13 12:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L A U B E N H E I M E R
Posts: 8,380
Seattle, Washington, US


Digital Hands wrote:
TF is good if you want to learn more and try new tools to work on.

To me,

TF = 5-10 min of work
PAID = over 15 min of work.

that's a sad way to look at things. if that is how one views it then why do TF at all?

Apr 25 13 09:41 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
The Invisible Touch
Posts: 707
Tarragona, Catalonia, Spain


Mark Laubenheimer wrote:

that's a sad way to look at things. if that is how one views it then why do TF at all?

+1 So agree on that one!!

Anything you do will always represent... YOU!!

Apr 25 13 09:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jayc Yu
Posts: 525
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


GDML77 wrote:
I see in every single forum a ton of smart asses (models, muas, photographers, retouchers), who cry for not getting paid which they find very unfair, you take a look at their portfolio, and you wonder... Pay for what? For that? Why would someone pay you? Its ridiculous, theres a zillion more people at your level, and another zillion above.

+1

Apr 25 13 09:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andrea Acailawen
Posts: 948
Tampa, Florida, US


Mark Laubenheimer wrote:
that's a sad way to look at things. if that is how one views it then why do TF at all?
The Invisible Touch wrote:
+1 So agree on that one!!

Anything you do will always represent... YOU!!

Agree 100%!

Apr 25 13 07:25 pm  Link  Quote 
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