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Photographer
Dan Howell
Posts: 2,242
New York, New York, US


Philipe wrote:
The photographer has the right to work and hire with who they want to...

I agree with Fred Grassing 100%

Yeah, but...No.

I don't see anyone here paying the kind of model fees that allow them to control what models shoot outside the project they are booking for.  You are free to make a policy that you don't shoot models who do porn. Unfortunately, your whole argument breaks down if the model goes out on the next shoot and does porn.  You can't control their past; you have some amount of control of the present; you can possibly control their future--but it gets really expensive! 

If the photographer mentioned or you feel that your client will be sensitive to this then you have to the responsibility of due diligence to look into every model's past (good luck...I don't have time for that).  And it's not like they have any obligation to tell you...

I have had projects where there was criteria outside the scope of a model's portfolio which I had to do my best to take into account.  Those projects, in my experience, are rare.  Many people have 'survived' porn--it's just harder with attitudes like that of the photographer being discussed.

Aug 21 11 05:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
House of Thailand
Posts: 617
Los Angeles, California, US


Dan Howell wrote:
You can't control their past; you have some amount of control of the present; you can possibly control their future--but it gets really expensive!

It happened to me. We hired a model and shot her in about 12 different apparel pieces and several mats/pillows. Her catalog photos went up on my website. 4 months later, I was notified that she's now a porn actress using the name Beti Hana. (I won't use her real name.) Google Beti Hana and see the results. I decided to leave her product photos up and running after thinking about it quite a bit. Our customers are 85% women, so I figured our customer base would never recognize her. The funny thing is this-she wasn't that great a model, but every product we used her in sold out very quickly (therefore you won't see her anymore on our website). She really moved the product, which of course when all is said and done, is the only thing I care about. Go figure.

Aug 21 11 07:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dark Shadows
Posts: 2,269
Miami, Florida, US


Fred Greissing wrote:
How about a situation where you hire a model for a shoot with a client and after the fact the client discovers that the model shoots a lot of porn.

It's almost a given that the client is going to request a reshoot with another model and that the original (porn) model will be paid for her time at an editorial rate rather than the much higher rate she would have received for an advertising campaign.

There is also a pretty good chance that the client will let her agency know and that they will drop her as a result.

Aug 21 11 07:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,533
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Dark Shadows wrote:

It's almost a given that the client is going to request a reshoot with another model and that the original (porn) model will be paid for her time at an editorial rate rather than the much higher rate she would have received for an advertising campaign.

if its after the fact how do you go about getting the model to give back any money they got at the advertising rate?  this confuses me.

Aug 21 11 09:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lumigraphics
Posts: 32,668
Detroit, Michigan, US


It's too bad that some people want to stigmatize anything they don't like.

I've shot with at least three models who I know have done pron and possibly more. Doesn't matter at all to me.
Aug 21 11 10:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dark Shadows
Posts: 2,269
Miami, Florida, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
if its after the fact how do you go about getting the model to give back any money they got at the advertising rate?  this confuses me.

Models never get paid the day of the shoot. It can take months. As the photographer I just got paid for an advertising shoot for a liquor company done about a month ago. That is considered incredibly fast payment. I can almost guarantee that the models from the shoot have still not been paid.

Aug 21 11 10:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,533
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Dark Shadows wrote:

Models never get paid the day of the shoot. It can take months. As the photographer I just got paid for an advertising shoot for a liquor company done about a month ago. That is considered incredibly fast payment. I can almost guarantee that the models from the shoot have still not been paid.

so they find the porn 6 months later.  question still stands.

Aug 21 11 10:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dark Shadows
Posts: 2,269
Miami, Florida, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

so they find the porn 6 months later.  question still stands.

If it was a big campaign the contract would likely have some 'moral clause' in it and they would just sue the model and or agency for damage to their company's reputation.

Aug 21 11 10:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,470
Los Angeles, California, US


R A V E N D R I V E wrote:

the porn industry has a lower incidence of STDs (except herpes) than the general population, thanks to testing.... and CAL-OSHA

if you decide to shoot porn, then there might be sex

Cal-Osha is NOT involved in the porn world. There are some factions within the state that would like to see their involvement, but as of this point, there is no government interference with the production of porn.

KM

Aug 21 11 10:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BodyartBabes
Posts: 2,004
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Davian J wrote:
If you find out before, after, during a photoshoot that a model has or does porn, does that change your attitude toward them?

In short, yes.   We don't use porn models, and if a model has done, or is doing porn, it really "poisons" her for our market.   We hit this last year, which is why we had to delay the roll out of one campaign.  The model we chose, we found, had done, and was doing porn, and it was *NOT* something we could use to market our product.  We had to wait for it to die down, and switch in different models.

Caused a real problem for us, and pissed off models who started to say bad things, but we *can't* use models who were in "porn" especially pee videos/images, and deep insertions, etc.   We just can't.

Why?  Our client and target base would *not* tolerate it.  The "smear" campaigns that could be made with the client slogans and the porn images was simply too risky to chance.  It would have been a disaster.

As a policy, we never used "porn" models, this goes back to the mid 80's.

Strippers, with class.  What is called "Hard R-rated", which is sort of like NC-17, but not quite as visually graphic (though the poses reflect a more graphic "attitude").  But not real "porn" or x-rated images. There's a line, and some people don't see it.  But it's there.  And you need to be aware of it.

The problem is that once you do "porn" you are FOREVER in a different "class" and no matter what happens, there is a whole mainstream market that cannot, will not, and will *NEVER* use you.   Despite what you may think, or believe, it is pretty much a career ender, except for "porn" and that lasts only as long as you are willing to keep going further and further, or the next "thing" comes along.  There really is no longevity or loyalty in porn.   

I've seen models who had a great following, were the most popular on subscription services, go from top to bottom in a month, or less, once they did a "graphic" set, and that could be spread legs to being in an image with a penis.  We used to track downloads/counts/keywords very, very carefully in the BBS days, and we saw what happened when models "took the money".  They got paid ONCE, lost their following, and never got more money, unless they kept doing more more "porn".  So, they either quit, or went deeper and deeper for a short while before fading out, with a legacy of images they would not be proud of later on.

You can argue it all you want, but we saw this time and again.  We lost one of our top models that way.  For years (2-3 years) she was our #1 seller.  Her image sets out performed every other model, and sometimes she outperformed all the others combined.  But, she got convinced to do a full x-rated set for about $2000 (which at the time was significant, since it was usually $150 to $200 per shoot for the standard images).  *BUT* she did 2-3 of those standard shoots a month, every month.  She did that x-rated shoot, the images were released, and within 30 days her download counts dropped to virtually "0"... yes ZERO.  She went from first to worst (rather than the z100 "Worst to First" record) in a month. She never got another shoot, but did one or two more x-rated shoots for LESS THAN we paid for the regular shoots.  And it was over for her. 

Anyway, we followed this trend over and over, and we realized we could never use "porn" models for anything that had to do with mainstream/general advertising use.  This is our experience over 3 decades.  Yours may vary.

Scott

Aug 21 11 10:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


Lumigraphics wrote:
It's too bad that some people want to stigmatize anything they don't like.

I've shot with at least three models who I know have done pron and possibly more. Doesn't matter at all to me.

the irony to me is:

you give a blow job on film and are potentially stigmatized for life.


but if you give a blow job behind closed doors to the right guy in "the industry" (i.e. the corporate world) you can maybe get a wedding ring(or better yet a kept man or woman) or a green light to forward your career.

Aug 21 11 10:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Katya V Vall
Posts: 924
Los Angeles, California, US


I like the part where you said "familiar porn site" big_smile
Aug 21 11 10:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
H5D PHOTOGRAPHER
Posts: 3,837
Gig Harbor, Washington, US


Fred Greissing wrote:

How about a situation where you hire a model for a shoot with a client and after the fact the client discovers that the model shoots a lot of porn.

I like how you have isolated the content you have quoted from it's context... smile lol

As I said previously ... I have shot precisely 1 Model that I know of that has shot porn.... I also went on to say I had no desire to become known for shooting porn stars.

The specific image that I referred to having in my book from that shoot is below.... like I said in my previous post, I've never had a Client react negatively to this particle image; in fact some single it out as a style they want recreating for their own projects. Depending on my relationship with the Client I have disclosed to some that the Model is in fact a Porn Star.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x105/marcfotografik/PirelliSwimwearEditorial__1047-BWcr.jpg

Your scenario while hypothetically possible, would be highly unlikely to happen as I book models with my Commercial Clients through mainstream Agency channels... If as a result of booking a Model from an Agency Such as IMG, Major, DNA, Storm, Elite etc it was later found out after a shoot wrapped that a Model had in fact been in the Porn Industry, I am pretty sure the Client would be pissed off for not having this disclosed, as would I. Something like this could be extremely damaging to a Commercial Brand.

I have worked with some Clients such as Target & Kohls that have releases that contain morality clauses... If a Model were to give false information on that release stating that they had never shot published (in print or online) nudity, they would be exposing their Agency to potential litigation from the Client for a reshoot.

I would however find it unlikely that a Porn Actress would find Agency Representation with one of the well know Commercial/Editorial Agencies in the first place.

It is however an interesting question you pose smile

Aug 21 11 11:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Davian J
Posts: 303
Sacramento, California, US


Katya V Vall wrote:
I like the part where you said "familiar porn site" big_smile

big_smile hey I'mma a man lol

Aug 22 11 01:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Lynch
Posts: 2,483
Bowie, Maryland, US


This:

H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
I also went on to say I had no desire to become known for shooting porn stars.

Is not compatible with this:

H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
Depending on my relationship with the Client I have disclosed to some that the Model is in fact a Porn Star.

People talk.  Ever heard of a game called telephone?  What happens to the story at the end?

Aug 22 11 01:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fred Greissing
Posts: 6,368
Los Angeles, California, US


Nedah Oyin wrote:

Yes.. Would you like a model to also give you a full list of all the non-porn shoots she has done..? Once again.. Google is free.. If a photographer asks, that's one thing.. Otherwise it's none of their fucking business..

First of all Google isn't going to be much help if the model uses a "stage name" either for modelling or for porn.

Then you say it's perfectly OK for me to ask.

But if I don't ask it's none of my business????? or as you say fucking business...

If it's none of my business how come it's OK to ask.....

Aug 22 11 02:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Nephrite_Imagines wrote:
He's an ass.

Sounds about right...

Aug 22 11 02:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Kerrek
Posts: 1,404
Orlando, Florida, US


Not to put it too bluntly, but what a fucking asshole. I hope you don't associate with this guy anymore...
Aug 22 11 02:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 27,667
Dearborn, Michigan, US


H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:

I like how you have isolated the content you have quoted from it's context... smile lol

As I said previously ... I have shot precisely 1 Model that I know of that has shot porn.... I also went on to say I had no desire to become known for shooting porn stars.

The specific image that I referred to having in my book from that shoot is below.... like I said in my previous post, I've never had a Client react negatively to this particle image; in fact some single it out as a style they want recreating for their own projects. Depending on my relationship with the Client I have disclosed to some that the Model is in fact a Porn Star.



Your scenario while hypothetically possible, would be highly unlikely to happen as I book models with my Commercial Clients through mainstream Agency channels... If as a result of booking a Model from an Agency Such as IMG, Major, DNA, Storm, Elite etc it was later found out after a shoot wrapped that a Model had in fact been in the Porn Industry, I am pretty sure the Client would be pissed off for not having this disclosed, as would I. Something like this could be extremely damaging to a Commercial Brand.

I have worked with some Clients such as Target & Kohls that have releases that contain morality clauses... If a Model were to give false information on that release stating that they had never shot published (in print or online) nudity, they would be exposing their Agency to potential litigation from the Client for a reshoot.

I would however find it unlikely that a Porn Actress would find Agency Representation with one of the well know Commercial/Editorial Agencies in the first place.

It is however an interesting question you pose smile

I know her.

Aug 22 11 03:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
H5D PHOTOGRAPHER
Posts: 3,837
Gig Harbor, Washington, US


Robert Lynch wrote:
This:

H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
I also went on to say I had no desire to become known for shooting porn stars.

Is not compatible with this:

People talk.  Ever heard of a game called telephone?  What happens to the story at the end?

Try reading both posts entirely ... The context makes what I have said very clear... Which is... To the best of my knowledge I have only shot a single Model that was worked in the Porn industry; this was something I did not know at the time... Her image is in my book... Some clients that I have a good relationship with are aware of the fact that this image that they like is of a model that has shot porn... It's a SINGLE occurrence that as a result does not constitute a pattern that I do not wish to be associated with in the commercial sector... 

You're assertion that the phone lines must be burning up the airwaves is quite frankly comical ... The shot in question was taken almost 2 1/2 hrs ago & to date it's not been an issue despite 5-6 clients knowing who the model is. As I have also said before, the model is a lovely girl... I don't judge her for what she chooses to do ... My decision not to knowingly shoot models that are involved with the porn industry is purely a business decision... My decision to divulge the model's identity to a FEW clients is something I did due to having a close relationship with this particular clients... I can assure you that the Ad Execs that know this information have better things to do than start calling around to announce to the World that I have shot a single porn actress... Rflmao

It's always the same on this site... Paranoia & conspiracy theories fly all over the place.

At the end of the story? I'm booking Ad Campaigns & traveling the World... What's your point?

Aug 22 11 04:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
H5D PHOTOGRAPHER
Posts: 3,837
Gig Harbor, Washington, US


Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I know her.

She's a very sweet girl smile

Aug 22 11 04:31 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Faith EnFire
Posts: 13,514
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US


Nephrite_Imagines wrote:
He's an ass.

+1

Aug 22 11 06:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Amy Dunn
Posts: 1,462
Houston, Texas, US


I know "her," too, and after I photographed this stunning beauty, my assistant looked her up. We high-fived each other. tongue
Aug 22 11 06:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sexy Vision Images
Posts: 483
Nashville, Tennessee, US


Nephrite_Imagines wrote:
He's an ass.

I 2nd this motion!......

Aug 22 11 06:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4,781
Houston, Texas, US


Nedah Oyin wrote:
Absolutely.. His attitude toward her was vile and indicative of his feelings about women in general.. what she did at a photoshoot with one photographer has ZERO to do with what she does at another..

Smh.. Some people are just horrific..

This pretty much sums it up.  He'd do more to damage his reputation than hers.
I hope he's aware of these comments...

Aug 22 11 06:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photograffics
Posts: 5
Shenandoah, Pennsylvania, US


I recently shot an ex porn model for a more mainstream port.  She wasn't into full nudity and I completely understood her wishes.  She WAS a porn model and now she just wants to model.  She did what I wanted and I shot what she needed.  Who cares what she did before or even now, it's about working as a team to get what you both need.
Aug 22 11 07:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
She's a very sweet girl smile

Maybe so, and she has (had?) a great look. She contacted me a while ago suggesting a shoot and I was initially interested, but after googling her name I decided not to go ahead.

Call me a prude, or whatever. I don't personally have anything against people who choose to do porn, but there are 1000s of models out there with a great look who don't carry the potentially negative baggage of also being a 'porn star'.


Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Aug 22 11 07:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
James Scolari
Posts: 81
Los Angeles, California, US


What businesses is it of his where she's modeled previously or how?
He cast her, she did the job, period.
Too bad he couldn't model the same professionalism.
Aug 22 11 07:18 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Teh Kitten
Posts: 161
Warner Robins, Georgia, US


Nedah Oyin wrote:

Wait.. What..?

Im sorry this is a LITTLE off topic, but i had about 2 years ago a male model that i was supposed to shoot with (it wasnt porn or fetish, it was more lifestyle{kinda like an Ambercrombie ad}) anyhow i was texting him to see if he was okay b/c the photog told me he had to cancel last minute b/c he was sick. he told me that he was in alot of pain and i asked him what happened and he said i have hemroids and lost a lot of blood...i was kinda creeped out at that point. But i was still willing to shoot with him b/c we would both be completly clothed, but he disapeared after that and took down his MM. =/

Aug 22 11 07:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RJPhotography
Posts: 10
San Antonio, Texas, US


I could care less what my model does on other shoots or for work. He is a royal ass in my opinion. Hell if I shoot a woman and later find out she works at the moonlight bunny ranch or in porn films I don’t honestly care. What is important to me is the job at hand nothing more. The level of some people just amazes me sometimes. That is totally and completely unprofessional.
Aug 22 11 07:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Keith A Williams
Posts: 1,740
Vanceboro, North Carolina, US


Indeed, your buddy is an ass.

Nope.  I hold no harsh feelings against anyone who dances, strips, does porn, escorts or whatnot.

I treat people on an individual basis - based on how they treat me, or others in my presence.  Frankly, nothing else matters to me.

KAW.
Aug 22 11 08:33 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Nedah Oyin
Posts: 11,826
Chicago, Illinois, US


Fred Greissing wrote:

First of all Google isn't going to be much help if the model uses a "stage name" either for modelling or for porn.

Then you say it's perfectly OK for me to ask.

But if I don't ask it's none of my business????? or as you say fucking business...

If it's none of my business how come it's OK to ask.....

so.. you conduct business with models and never even ask their names..? how the hell do you manage to get releases signed, checks written, ect, with only fake names..? oh..

and once again, if you want to know, you need to ask.. if it's YOUR reputation on the line, it would behoove you to do your due diligence and make sure you don't hire someone who would damage it..

Aug 22 11 08:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
No One of Consequence
Posts: 2,980
Winchester, Virginia, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
Who cares if she's a porn star, a hooker, a secretary or a congress woman? The end product is what matters unless he was shooting for a commercial client then the models "reputation" might negatively impact the product she is marketing but otherwise why the hell would it matter?

Eric Lefebvre wrote:
For my purposes I happen to agree. But just to play devil's advocate in a conservative town would you use a known recognizable porn star (or porn stars) to shoot images for your bridal portfolio?

ADV answered your question: if the model's reputation can impact the product, then it matters.   Otherwise, it doesn't.

Of course, it would be a non-issue if this country wasn't so hung up on sex.   Brazilian actress Xuxa went from doing hard-R nude scenes to being a children's TV hostess.   Porn star Illona Staller was elected to the Italian parliament (and continued making porn while in office).

Aug 22 11 08:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,533
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Clyph wrote:

AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
Who cares if she's a porn star, a hooker, a secretary or a congress woman? The end product is what matters unless he was shooting for a commercial client then the models "reputation" might negatively impact the product she is marketing but otherwise why the hell would it matter?

ADV answered your question: if the model's reputation can impact the product, then it matters.   Otherwise, it doesn't.

Of course, it would be a non-issue if this country wasn't so hung up on sex.   Brazilian actress Xuxa went from doing hard-R nude scenes to being a children's TV hostess.   Porn star Illona Staller was elected to the Italian parliament (and continued making porn while in office).

ummm you really should check your quoting after you post to be sure you are attributing stuff where its supposed to go.... jus sayin

Aug 22 11 09:16 am  Link  Quote 
Model
cameryn coxxx
Posts: 369
Delray Beach, Florida, US


LMFAO, he should have been glad she was willing to waste a day doing a photoshoot w him instead of an adult shoot for WAY more money.... and then been GLAD to use his "great" photos of her to improve his veritas
Aug 22 11 09:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
barepixels
Posts: 2,909
San Diego, California, US


Wish someone will send "him" to this thread.
Aug 22 11 09:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Estupido Studios
Posts: 234
DENVILLE, New Jersey, US


Sadly there are idiots in this world, and if we let one be able to take pictures we have to let all of them take pictures sad
Aug 22 11 11:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rfordphotos
Posts: 4,813
Antioch, California, US


Clyph wrote:
Porn star Illona Staller was elected to the Italian parliament (and continued making porn while in office).

I always assumed this was because the Italians wanted to see one of their politicians get f%^ked rather than the much more traditional other way around.....

There have been "porn" actors who went on to successful mainstream careers but they are the exceptions. Sadly in the US at least, it is relatively uncommon.

Its nothing new. When I was a younger man, Marilyn Chambers went from being the model on the Ivory Snow soap boxes ("99 & 44/100% pure") to controversial porn star almost overnight with the release of Behind the Green Door.... She is the first one I remember who caused a "flap" in the industry, but I am sure there were others before her.... Hell, Bettie Page comes to mind...in her day SHE was considered by many to be a porn actress....

Aug 22 11 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
H5D PHOTOGRAPHER
Posts: 3,837
Gig Harbor, Washington, US


Stefano Brunesci wrote:

Maybe so, and she has (had?) a great look. She contacted me a while ago suggesting a shoot and I was initially interested, but after googling her name I decided not to go ahead.

Call me a prude, or whatever. I don't personally have anything against people who choose to do porn, but there are 1000s of models out there with a great look who don't carry the potentially negative baggage of also being a 'porn star'.


Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

I dont disagree with you Stefano.... At the time I shot her I had no idea that she had shot softcore Porn... It was, too my knowledge, my first & only experience shooting with a Porn Actress in all the years I have been a Photographer. The images I captured of her have not caused me any negative effects that I am aware of, as we went in the polar opposite direction from Porn into Editorial territory.... few people have thought to associate the Model in the image with porn... those that have, have largely come from MM smile haha

Nowadays I also do a web search on any Model not coming through Agency channels that I am considering shooting... & yes a few Models have been revealed as having a prior or active hardcore porn association. As such on each occasion I have backed away from shooting.

1 incident is an anomaly, 2 incidents would be the beginnings of a pattern I don't want to expose my business too... however I am not ashamed of the work I produced with the this Model hence including it in my book at this time; I just chose not to repeat the experience for business reasons.

Aug 22 11 12:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KFM Designs
Posts: 685
Flagstaff, Arizona, US


your buddy is a tard.  She does what she does and that is on her.  If she acts professional when working with me then that is all that I care about.

Who made him the model police. 

A portrait photographer might blackball him for doing what he does.
Aug 22 11 01:29 pm  Link  Quote 
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