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Models that don't know how to model
Or maybe it's me not knowing how to photograph? I recently had a model ask for a TF session and I was happy to oblige. The first expression was a blank look that resembled minor digust. I snapped the photo and she tilted her head half an inch and kept the look. I asked for a smile, she smiles and raises her eyebrows high and widens her eyes like a crazy person. This went on for the entire session. Disgust peppered with crazy eyes. She kept her hands at her sides and when I asked for a particular hand placement it was always awkward with fingers crooked like she was casting a curse. If I had asked for the session I would have stopped and found another model but this was HER session. Now I have 800 photos to choose from and am struggling to find 10 worth sending. I'd really like to give quality work even to those that don't know how to model. Have any of you experienced this? How did you pull the emotions out of the model? What do you suggest I do if I am presented with this in the future? Oct 16 11 02:06 pm Link Mark, You are the one at fault here. You need to start "directing" the model. I treat every shoot as if I was shooting a movie. I tell the model what I need and demonstrate it myself if i have to. If need be, I will have the model look at the image on the camera screen (or laptop, whatever I am using at the time) and see for themselves what they look like. Eventually, they will see a progression of what they are doing and make the necessary adjustments. This is just a part of photography. Direct the models, let them know what you need. They cannot read your mind. They want to do good but without a frame of reference, they don't know what's expected of them. It's a given that some models are naturals. Those you barely have to do anything since thay have their act together. But even those need to be given some type of direction so they know what you want. When you do a photo shoot, do you already have a vision? Is it sketched or are you simply winging it in the hopes something comes out? The model is just that, a model. You have to place them in the position and place them in the same frame of mind as you are in. -Koa- www.borikenwarrior.com P.S. Aloha! I'm from Mililani myself. Oct 16 11 02:15 pm Link -Koa- wrote: +1 Oct 16 11 02:28 pm Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: First, don't shoot 800 photos. Oct 16 11 02:33 pm Link Thank you Koa! When it is my shoot, I already have images in my mind. This was her shoot and she already had a location that she wanted. I had not seen it before. I was not a fan of it when i saw it. She said she only wanted head shots and wasn't interested in full body shots. I really wasn't "feeling it" but wanted to give her what she asked for. So for this session, yes, I was winging it hoping something would come out. I did show her some images on my camera but that didn't seem to make her adjust. I know that the responsibilty rests on my shoulders as I can see through the lens, not her. Are there any techniques that can be done? I tried making her laugh to get a natural smile but she would turn her head away as she laughed. Oct 16 11 02:35 pm Link Cuica Cafezinho wrote: Why not? Oct 16 11 02:39 pm Link -Koa- wrote: I'll submit a different opinion. Oct 16 11 02:39 pm Link Good Egg Productions wrote: This actually crossed my mind. If she always makes this expression, she might really like my images. However, I think that is just me trying to justify a bust shoot. Oct 16 11 02:44 pm Link I had my own very similar learning experience and it was kind of a rite of passage for me as a photographer. I had a very happy theme planned and the model refused to smile. She was extremely awkward and after a few shots it was immediately clear this wasnt going anywhere. Here you need to step out of the frame, put the camera down, make people at home and explain exactly what you want. I later read in a book about what the Italian photographers call pesce morte: models that look like dead fish. Performance anxiety combined with fear the shutter may click - here it was standing in from of me in the studio all made up and well lit. We ended up changing the theme slightly adding more serious photos to it and saved the day. Even got in a few laughs in the end. I did manage to find 10 useable ones out of the 1000 I did that day and of course I kept encouraging her the entire day. I did not enjoy this shoot but I pulled through with it and had useable results. I guess I learned that day: expect nothing and everything is your fault. Oct 16 11 02:46 pm Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: If you're willing to take the time to continue to shoot for 800 frames (you can always apologize and tell her you don't think it's working out and put the blame on yourself to be polite), spend half the shoot coaching her. Oct 16 11 02:47 pm Link Thank you Mosttry, that was exactly what I was looking for!  Oct 16 11 02:51 pm Link what i;ve found helps is hand the model a prop anything - / mask / scarf / beads/ the broom . live/dead flowers ... get them to interact with the prop . Oct 16 11 02:54 pm Link A great part of being a photographer is being a "people person" and knowing how to make them feel comfortable ( who likes a big camera pointed at them anyway?) and to bring out the real them by talking, laughing, just getting along like 'friends'. It;s a God send to find a girl with a switch you throw and she starts to 'model'....but most people dont know what to do and it isnt as easy as saying ok smile" and "ok now give me something different". Oct 16 11 02:55 pm Link Also... and when I say "we're the ones who can get a model/actor to do what they need to do" I don't mean tell her what she's doing is wrong. If you take that first pic and realize she looks disgusted. Better to just say "Great. Now let's try something different. You know how sometimes when you're sitting all alone, at the end of the day, and you're just relaxed? Let's try something like that!" Creative explanation...you figuring out what you need to tell her to get something out of her. It's like explaining a scene to an actor. And in the above example, you may not actually want the look of someone relaxed at the end of the day. BUT....that's what you're gonna tell her just to see what that produces in her. And then you move to scenario to scenario until you stumble onto something that's working. Oct 16 11 02:56 pm Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: I'm putting my money on this.... Oct 16 11 03:02 pm Link Thanks everybody! I'm loving this advice! Oct 16 11 03:04 pm Link Images by MR wrote: You mean it takes more effort than looking through the little view thingy and pressing the button on top? Oct 16 11 03:06 pm Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: yes. picasso never sat around watching his paintings magically paint themselves. Oct 16 11 03:08 pm Link Sometimes it's the photographers job to treat the model like an infant and tell them exactly what to do in great detail and sometimes even then the model won't get it. I'd just cut my losses, trash the images and move on. Oct 16 11 03:16 pm Link Mark Laubenheimer wrote: although...Jeff Koons does... Oct 16 11 03:17 pm Link 800??? 1000??? Geeze, I'm done with 100 shots and that's with a few outfits! There are people (models) who just don't really know what their face looks like and definitely freeze up when you ask them to make an expression on cue. I try stopping and talking to them, making them recite the vowels, make them laugh and try and get them comfortable... Then there are the times that no matter what you do, they have one face they like and that's the only face they are going to make... Oct 16 11 03:19 pm Link 
Photographer Posts: 4288 Amundsen-Scott - permanent station of the US, Unclaimed Sector, Antarctica It is frustrating to do a session and not feel like you got the shot - no matter if it's a paid shoot, tf, whatever. None of us want to say that we just wasted a bunch of time with no results. Having said that, it happens to everyone. I shot with a girl earlier this week and she smiled in every single freakin' pic I took... Even though she tried not to, she couldn't have had a serious expression if I would have wacked her with a 2x4. Now, I shoot film, so I shoot 72 exposures a session (I wouldn't shoot 800 pics under any circumstances), but that's another topic, so I took the ONE image that worked for me and interpreted it. I am 52 and have become a true pragmatist. I have taught myself that getting one worthwhile pic in a session is worth it. Granted, many would disagree, but if I want a kick in the head, I have two ex-wives I can call for that...lol Just go through the session in your head, learn from it and do a little better for yourself next time. Oct 16 11 03:20 pm Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: yep, with naive talent this is indeed the rule not the exception... Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: you don't... you coach... have dedicated hundreds of hours to master fashion editorial poses so these can shared with new talent... also do yoga daily to increase range of motion and body awareness... editorial poses are EXTREMELY difficult and take significant time to master... “Really great people make you feel that you, too, can become great." Samuel figured it out long ago... Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: might be wise collaborate with talent that have good body awareness... i.e. those with a background in ballet, gymnastics, yoga, dance etc. until you develop strong coaching abilities Oct 16 11 03:24 pm Link instead of telling them what to do make them feel something. crank up some music. tease them. make them laugh. make them get mad ("nothing to see here"). think like a movie director. everyone is different which adds to the challenge. but i think this is the key part of being a photographer. being able to bring out the best in the talent. of course sometimes you may just have a model that doesn't have the range needed for that particular assignment. Oct 16 11 03:25 pm Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: To the first sentence, I agree. Oct 16 11 03:27 pm Link Really no. It isn't the job of the photographer to teach the model. Directing is one thing, but direction should be about mood or feeling and rarely about specific poses or how to smile. I have never seen a behind the scenes shoot of Coco where the photographer is telling her how to do her job. Sure a new model on a test shoot may need some help, but that is what testing is for and usually with in development models. A photographer should not expect it and frankly unless it's an agency test I expect them to know how to do their part; would you expect a model to tell you how to setup your lights and work your exposure? Oct 16 11 03:28 pm Link Direct in this circumstance I've shot with girls that weren't models, models that didn't know how to model, etc. If the shoot isn't working you should stop and show them a bunch of poses, like some models you know might have videos on youtube of them modeling, stream that from your phone have some model magazines around, or a posing guide for reference Oct 16 11 03:38 pm Link You're the one behind the camera, and the director. It's up to you to direct the model into the proper pose, which means you need to be able to communicate clearly, so that the model understands you. To make things go smoothly, before I start shooting, I have a short 2 or 3 minute talk with the model, and I tell her, "when I say this, it's means this", and then I show her what I mean. "When I say move this way, it means this" and then show her. I also let the model do freestyle posing, whatever she wants to do, as many times she will be working with photographers who don't know how to pose the models or communicate clearly, so it's gives them good training on how to pose later on. 800 photos? When it's not going well, it's time to change the direction in which the shoot is going, and take complete control of everything, else you'll end up wasting your time. You should have stopped after the first 100 shots. One other thing. You should always have a couple of fashion magazines handy, and show them a pose that you want, and then go from there. Makes it easier when they can see what you want. Oct 16 11 03:39 pm Link -Koa- wrote: Can't agree with that at all. Oct 16 11 03:49 pm Link ArtistryImage wrote: WOW!! Thank you for the link! I just watched a couple of her videos and it is exactly what I need to improve! You know I'll be soaking all her videos in! Oct 16 11 03:57 pm Link Priceless. I have had experienced models flake after new wardrobe,make-up,hair ect. I think in that case It's a psychological "Oh S#!+" Oct 16 11 04:03 pm Link Apparently they shot more than 650,000 images for the 2011 Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition and achieved a new low for this photographic medium (Did you see the horrible cover?)... so don't feel bad for shooting 800 images and obtaining less than satisfying images!! Oct 16 11 04:05 pm Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: Yup, happens all the time. As the photographer the end result is ultimately up to me, sometimes that requires me to be overally directorial (something I loathe). Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: Getting to know them as a human being is a start. You'd be surprised how many treat their breathing model as basically an unfeeling mannequin. Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: 1. Work on your directing skills. Oct 16 11 04:05 pm Link You people are simply ridiculous! Mark, you are not at fault. Not everyone can model. If you were hired to take portraits of the woman for family and friends, then it's your responsibility to take great portraits. As great as can be expected from a non model. If she plans to model, she needs to have the ability to hold a pose. She obviously does not. No amount of a photographer's 'professional' directing will garner a better shot of a person who just can't model. The egos in this thread are truly astounding. Send this same model to these photographic geniuses and see the 'great' fashion or editorial work they produce. Give the model their MM accounts and tell her they'd love to produce great work with her, all TF! It simply cannot be done. That's why they go to agencies to hire models who will get the job done easily. (Or, hire one of the many professional models here.) Not your fault! This happens a lot. Everyone wants to be a model. This is precisely why supermodels get paid so damn much. They CAN model. Desire does not equal ability. Obvioiusly, this does not include art works that you hire the model specifically for. Anyone with a modicum of ability can shoot any human and produce art. The person you are referring to clearly did not have art in mind. Neither did you. She came to you. Don't accept every TF shoot offered. "The whole world is rosy" attitudes here are beautiful and encouraging, but not at all practical and completely untrue. Oct 16 11 04:08 pm Link Mark Kwiatkowski wrote: if you aren't getting what you want in an image, the answer isn't MORE shots, just like if your car isn't running the answer isn't more coats of paint. Shoot too many because you ARE getting what you want, but I myself am learning I need to take less shots. It makes the sorting process death & its draining. If you're not getting it out of the model, put the camera down & take her to a mirror. Work through looks with her. Then pic up the camera again & get what you're looking for. Oct 16 11 04:20 pm Link Set up a TF-type shoot with a model, but absolutely could not see the magic working. So we changed location (10 minutes in the car) - during which time she reveals she is a performance artist and pushing hard to get into films. By this time the sun was dipping over the horizon. Put her in front of a massive, gorgeously lit bank building - and got her to run through a series of 'emotional' poses... All good :-) Then got her to do some extreme stretches and jumps (dancer as well as actress) - which really put the cherry on the cake. Shoot saved - everyone happy :-) If it's really not there, get a dialogue going, change location and find out if they have any hidden talents Oct 16 11 04:21 pm Link Mosttry wrote: ^More good advice: Oct 16 11 04:21 pm Link I find myself terrified by the camera sometimes. I think it's when I am unsure what the photographer's expectations are of me or the shoot. When I set up a shoot and am the one with the concept of what I want, I'm right 'there' from the start. I know I want to be a deadly assassin vampire who gets stabbed in the graveyard. Bam! But when I work on regular shoots that don't involve vampire teeth, I sometimes start freaking out. The photographers who get something decent out of me when that happens are the ones who (like all the sage advice given here) talk to me and are clear about exacty what it is they are looking for. A little conversatioon goes a long way with me, and I assume with other models. I got some fantastic shots with a guy who worried if he was talking too much. Some of my favorites! And he didn't direct me at all. I was so comfortable, I just did all assortment of poses that just came to me. I will say one thing. There are models out there who literally have one expression. I don't think they want to do anything other than look slightly pissy. Maybe don't accept every tf offer that comes your way if you don't think the model will benefit your port? It's just sounding like too much effort to work with a model who just has one look. Oct 16 11 04:21 pm Link n i c o d e m u s wrote: You may have the personality to pull this off as posative feedback. If I tried it the way I think it is outlined I would expect a meltdown. Oct 16 11 04:25 pm Link Carlos Occidental wrote: Carlos, Oct 16 11 04:41 pm Link |
