Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 33877
Arcata, California, US
Dario Western wrote:
If are model flakes on you, the first person you should talk to on here are the moderators (see the CAM section).
After all, this site boasts in its browser tabs "Where *PROFESSIONAL* Models Meet Model Photographers". Oh, for chrissakes. What are the mods going to do?
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 3351
London, England, United Kingdom
Edeline Wrigh wrote:
You take a photographer's lack of answer as a sign against the model? IMO, if (s)he can't be bothered to respond positively or negatively, that's more of an indication about the photographer's character than the model's. What Edeline said!
Very tiresome this myth of "no answer is an answer". All it means is either the person didn't get the message, forgot, is too busy, or ignorant!
Photographer
Drew Smith Photography
Posts: 5214
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom
OP - go and see my ''Go To' Movies' thread in the Off Topic Forum. Altrenatively wear your Flake like a badge of honour - it's a rite of passage on MM to put up with a flake early in your MM 'career'. But you lost 100 Cred points for whining. 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
jasonbaca wrote:
How does a person check references on here regarding a model? 1) Ask your local photographers & models if they know the model. This works best if
you have already established a good relationship with your local community.
2) Ask the models & photographers who are local to your candidate.
3) Ask the people credited in the model's portfolio.
4) Evaluate the model's portfolio -- does it show a variety of photographers' works?
5) Work with experienced, well established models (and yes, that sometimes
means paying them). Traveling models can't afford to flake.
That should do it.
I have an e-mail distribution list of my local photographers & models -- a simple two line e-mail gets delivered to ~50 people, and I usually get a handful of replies (more if the model is a potential flake).
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Dario Western wrote:
If are model flakes on you, the first person you should talk to on here are the moderators (see the CAM section).
After all, this site boasts in its browser tabs "Where *PROFESSIONAL* Models Meet Model Photographers". And what do you want the moderators to do?
You are likely a stranger to the moderators -- do you really want them to take your word for it? Do you want them to investigate every flake report? Should they also investigate all the "Where are my photos?" complaints?
And, there's always the old saying: "An ounce of prevention better than a pound of cure". Stop expecting other people to "warn" you, be proactive, and do a little research.
Photographer
RME Digital Photography
Posts: 267
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
jasonbaca wrote:
I am curious, I won't name out any names of people, but I'd be curious to know from the experts.. Say you book a model, a female model to do a shoot for you. Maybe you had a couples shoot you were going to do. The one model arrives on time ready to go. The female does not.
There are no phone calls to let you know, no texts... so the shoot gets cancelled.. Then the next day you follow up with the model to find out what happened...
Funny thing is, we were set to do a shoot and the model didn't show. I ended up posting something on here to let others know that this person is possibly flaky... then they turn around and email me and say that I'm rude for "outing" them. Was I wrong for doing this? You shouldn't out people publicly for a couple reasons:
1. There are always two sides to a story.
2. People may actually end up being afraid to work with you for fear that they might be outed publicly for something you don't like.
3. What if you were ever in a situation where something happened and a shoot was cancled or something went wrong because of you (even if its a legit reason). Would you want to be outed?
With that said. I've had may models flake on me. And I don't consider canceling to be flaking. I'm talking about when we set something up and the model just never shows and I never hear back from her.
It sucks but I'm getting better at figuring out who is going to flake and who isn't.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13559
Washington, Utah, US
If I wanted to make some plumbing upgrades to my house, but there was no urgency or rush, I might consider trying to save some money by hiring a part-time plumber who advertises on Craigslist, knowing that if he showed up, I'd save some money, but if he didn't, it wouldn't be a big deal because there's no urgency and nothing on the line. If I owned a restaurant and absolutely needed to have plumbing in a kitchen repaired to in order to open for business on Monday, I'd pay top dollar to hire someone through a reputable local plumbing company.
It's no different with choosing models. Freelance internet models and working through an agency will tend to have different costs and risks. Choose which ever works for your situation.
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8089
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Dario Western wrote:
If are model flakes on you, the first person you should talk to on here are the moderators (see the CAM section).
After all, this site boasts in its browser tabs "Where *PROFESSIONAL* Models Meet Model Photographers". ![https://www.shotbyadam.com/images/fail.jpg]()
Photographer
Vincent Arthur
Posts: 901
Red Bank, New Jersey, US
When a model flakes I take phone pics of myself in the mirror
Photographer
WMcK
Posts: 5298
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Dario Western wrote:
If are model flakes on you, the first person you should talk to on here are the moderators (see the CAM section).
After all, this site boasts in its browser tabs "Where *PROFESSIONAL* Models Meet Model Photographers". No. Model Mayhem would have to employ 1,000 new moderators working 24 hours a day and 365 days a year to deal with that.
These things happen, and the only thing to do is to remember the name of the model and not use her again. It happened to me four days ago, shoot confirmed the night before then a series of text messages with unbelievable excuses just before it was due to start. I was not the first time and probably won't be the last.
Photographer
DennisRoliffPhotography
Posts: 1929
Akron, Ohio, US
What if 'my model' flakes? I hand her a bottle of 'Head & Shoulders' and tell her to come back after a couple weeks of 'wash, rinse, repeat'. ![https://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/laugh.gif]()
Model
DeannaJoyy
Posts: 241
San Francisco, California, US
As a model I'm aware of photographers being nervous that I might flake as its usally happened to them are least once by another model. I always offer to give them references from other photographers I've worked with to verify that I never flake, that I'm professional, etc. If the photographers I'm talking to is from ModelMayhem then I give them other MM photographers as references, etc.
The reverse is true, I have frequently run into photographers who are flakes, talk a great story, set things up, and then they disappear and I don't hear anything from them within a day or so of the shoot even after a few messages from me to confirm. Now if that happens, I send an email/phone call/text/PM thru MM and let them know if I don't hear back by a certain date and time then I will assume the shoot is cancelled. Never had anyone claim I'm a flake by doing this and actually let's them know I'm aware of their game and just don't want to play.
Really don't understand why anyone would put so much effort in communications then just disappear.
In short, as a photographer, it might help to ask for references.
Photographer
David Shinobi
Posts: 5746
Daytona Beach, Florida, US
Why can the powers that be just give dedicated sections for Flakes and Escorts so those who want to add to the other 1000000000000 can see that another one isnt needed... just sayin'
But that would make just way too much sense now, wouldn't it?
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 18392
Elmhurst, Illinois, US
Dario Western wrote:
If are model flakes on you, the first person you should talk to on here are the moderators (see the CAM section).
After all, this site boasts in its browser tabs "Where *PROFESSIONAL* Models Meet Model Photographers". I just Camd to tell the Mods you flaked on me.
They said that was unprofessional and they were going to remove you.
OK - I didn't do that. But do you see why the Mods wouldn't and shouldn't do anything about it?
Photographer
David Shinobi
Posts: 5746
Daytona Beach, Florida, US
Dario Western wrote:
If are model flakes on you, the first person you should talk to on here are the moderators (see the CAM section).
After all, this site boasts in its browser tabs "Where *SOME PROFESSIONAL* Models Meet SOME Model Photographers SOMETIMES". Fixed....
Photographer
-Koa-
Posts: 5250
Castaner, Puerto Rico, US
Yep! As I mentioned on page one of this thread, I had two "flakes". Saw them coming two car crashes away. However, I did have a shoot with a 12 yeear old classmate of my son. These were her 6th grade graduation pictures. Her aunt and uncle came along and we met at out the lake. Lesson learned? Get 'em before they turn 18. After that, "flake city"! Seriously, I just instituted an anti, "No Show/No Call" policy on my profile page. Now, someone is going to look at that and say, "who's going to shoot with you now? Nobody"! I don't care. I have been on MM for two years and have yet to actually shoot with a model from this site so no big loss. Whoopty Doo! -Koa- www.borikenwarrior.com
Photographer
steven HARP
Posts: 18
Satellite Beach, Florida, US
Photographer
Mike Adams Photos
Posts: 1217
Cleveland, Ohio, US
If a model flakes? Take a nap, eat, or something like that. Their loss, not mine.
Photographer
Studio La Donna
Posts: 423
San Francisco, California, US
Try to book models who will not flake. Check references, look at their portfolio, are there any credited photos. I always ask for a phone number, if model will not give it to you, 99 percent flake. Confirm, confirm, confirm!
If they don't show up, just relax, get something to eat, read a book, read your equipment's manual, and edit some photos. Just make your time productive.
The worse think is model call up 15 minutes before and shoot and give an excuse like I have red eyes, or my grandmother just died.... OK, I am cool with that, shit happens, when if you ask the model to reschedule and the model do not respond...worst thing in the world for me. The model is banished for life!
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 3523
Royal Oak, Michigan, US
I don't think it's any ruder than a no show no call, but it is against MM rules. In the end, everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions. However, as a professional it's more effective to get deposits, have planning meetings, and have backup talent rarher than bitch about it here.
Model
V Laroche
Posts: 2746
Khowmeyn, Markazī, Iran
If your model flakes, it's the end of the world. You should probably publicly shame her and give up photography altogether. That'll show her.
Photographer
fsp
Posts: 3656
New York, New York, US
DeannaJoyy wrote:
As a model I'm aware of photographers being nervous that I might flake as its usally happened to them are least once by another model. I always offer to give them references from other photographers I've worked with to verify that I never flake, that I'm professional, etc. If the photographers I'm talking to is from ModelMayhem then I give them other MM photographers as references, etc.
The reverse is true, I have frequently run into photographers who are flakes, talk a great story, set things up, and then they disappear and I don't hear anything from them within a day or so of the shoot even after a few messages from me to confirm. Now if that happens, I send an email/phone call/text/PM thru MM and let them know if I don't hear back by a certain date and time then I will assume the shoot is cancelled. Never had anyone claim I'm a flake by doing this and actually let's them know I'm aware of their game and just don't want to play.
Really don't understand why anyone would put so much effort in communications then just disappear.
In short, as a photographer, it might help to ask for references. If it were a paid gig, I'd be very pissed! TF well that's life but there may be recourse....
Perhaps listing flakes in your profile for others to use a reference might be the answer? I see models do it to photographers.
Photographer
Don-Jones
Posts: 302
Memphis, Tennessee, US
Photographer
DG at studio47
Posts: 2365
East Ridge, Tennessee, US
I read 2 pages and scanned the third.
Is this the story? The OP is a male model. He was booked to do a couples shoot with a female model and she flaked and everyone went home. Sad faces. I got questions:
#1. Who booked the female model, the photographer or the male model?
#2. Was the female model an acquaintance or 'friend' of the male model?
#3. No mention of checking the females references?
#4. The OP stated that the model was contacted the next day but no mention of her 'excuse' for flaking?
#4. The OP posted a note about the female model being a flake which is against the TOS here on MM. The model contacts him to complain. Butt hurt all round.
#5. The photographer had no backup plan to work with the OP as an individual model? If the shoot was not a required theme involving couples for a client, then why not do something creative?
#6. Was this a paid shoot or a TFP deal?
#7. what about the references for the model? or did the OP or the photographer have previous positive experience with the female model?
We got 25% of a story here.
Personally, I always had other work to do if a model did not show. Usually paper work, personal work, image editing, etc. In addition, I never called the model before 48 hours had passed--that way, they think that you are chilled and everything is "ok". You place the call, if the model answers, you say "hello, this is_________". STOP--don't say another word. You do not give them another microsecond to recover from thier shock and take a breath before starting their preplanned excuse. You listen as they stumble over themselves and fall flat. You stay silent and listen.when they are finished, you comment, "OK, goodbye" and hangup. block their number and other methods of contact you had with them. The only model that did not show for me that had a valid excuse called me later the day of the shoot and explained that she had been in the ER with a sick child. I rescheduled her and when she arrived for the shoot she handed me the official ER discharge sheet that showed her arrival and discharge times from the ER, the child's name and diagnosis, etc. I never asked for that document, but the model was a true professional who cared about her reputation and my time. Each was valued by the other.
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
If they are local I blacklist them at the local camera club meeting.
Photographer
Eastfist
Posts: 3580
Green Bay, Wisconsin, US
Does "she" sound like an old man trying to sound like a young woman? That's another clue I've picked up on.
Photographer
Ben Hinman
Posts: 596
Westwood, California, US
White Lace Studios wrote:
Yes. you broke the rules outing them. What rules? Last time i checked this industry didn't care about truth or who was to blame, just who they could pin it on. Theres no rules to the madness, just a bunch of arrogant fucks trying to maintain their 'image'.
The model got on your case about it because regardless of whether its THEIR fault they flaked, they're trying to maintain their image. You'd be best just ignoring it, because THEIR image shouldn't matter to you. Its not necessarily a good thing to point out the flakes, while it might save another photographer the trouble you're only setting them up to defend their image, and they WILL destroy yours if it means coming out on top. Unfortunately the truth is irrelevant, all that matters is appearances.
Still, i'd encourage you to remain honest and genuine. If you want to survive out here you have to accept the truth of the industry but that doesn't mean you need to become it.
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Ben Hinman wrote:
What rules? Last time i checked this industry didn't care about truth or who was to blame, just who they could pin it on. Theres no rules to the madness, just a bunch of arrogant fucks trying to maintain their 'image'.
The llama got on your case about it because regardless of whether its THEIR fault they flaked, they're trying to maintain their image. You'd be best just ignoring it, because THEIR image shouldn't matter to you. Its not necessarily a good thing to point out the flakes, while it might save another photographer the trouble you're only setting them up to defend their image, and they WILL destroy yours if it means coming out on top. Unfortunately the truth is irrelevant, all that matters is appearances.
Still, i'd encourage you to remain honest and genuine. If you want to survive out here you have to accept the truth of the industry but that doesn't mean you need to become it. I just wanted to point out that you are responding to someone from March in this necromancer raised thread...
Model
Kirst
Posts: 550
Derry, New Hampshire, US
sadly things come up, and emergencies happen. and flakes are a big part of this industry.
I don't recommend publicly announcing her wrong-doing, because:
1. she may have been telling the truth
2. it makes you look high maintenance, and scares people away from working with you, out of the fear that if something happens they will be bashed.
3. you are burning a bridge, which is never a good idea.
although, this has happened to me, so i know how it feels. my advice is to wait a week before posting anything negative, if you must post at all. it gives you a chance to think about whether it's really worth it or not, and how it will make you look.
if you really feel wronged by her, do the shoot. but use someone better than her, who will benefit your portfolio and make her realize she missed out. revenge is never a good idea, but you had a shoot in mind, and there's no reason to abandon it because one piece of the puzzle didnt show up.
:]
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 17824
El Segundo, California, US
Ben Hinman wrote:
White Lace Studios wrote:
Yes. you broke the rules outing them. What rules? Last time i checked this industry didn't care about truth or who was to blame, just who they could pin it on. Theres no rules to the madness, just a bunch of arrogant fucks trying to maintain their 'image'. MM has some rules which more restrictive than "this industry". One of them is that you may only put 'do not recommend XXXX' on your profile page. More than that is not permitted.
Another suggestion is to check the date of a thread you're responding to; it might save time.
Photographer
FullMetalPhotographer
Posts: 2797
Fresno, California, US
jasonbaca wrote:
I am curious, I won't name out any names of people, but I'd be curious to know from the experts.. Say you book a model, a female model to do a shoot for you. Maybe you had a couples shoot you were going to do. The one model arrives on time ready to go. The female does not.
There are no phone calls to let you know, no texts... so the shoot gets cancelled.. Then the next day you follow up with the model to find out what happened...
Funny thing is, we were set to do a shoot and the model didn't show. I ended up posting something on here to let others know that this person is possibly flaky... then they turn around and email me and say that I'm rude for "outing" them. Was I wrong for doing this? IF I need a single camera I will have at least 2. The same with a model especially if I have not worked with them, or they are inexperienced. I always try to factor in the act of God.
Usually before the shoot i will set up a meeting and go over the shoot details with them if that is not practical a phone meeting.
I never go by email or texts alone.
I will call and talked them if possible if they miss a shoot. One of my favorite models that i worked with had an issue on the first time we scheduled a shoot. But she called me and explained the issue. In the end we did several projects together.
Photographer
BigCatimages
Posts: 11
Darlington, England, United Kingdom
Kirst Callahan wrote:
sadly things come up, and emergencies happen. and flakes are a big part of this industry.
I don't recommend publicly announcing her wrong-doing, because:
1. she may have been telling the truth
2. it makes you look high maintenance, and scares people away from working with you, out of the fear that if something happens they will be bashed.
3. you are burning a bridge, which is never a good idea.
although, this has happened to me, so i know how it feels. my advice is to wait a week before posting anything negative, if you must post at all. it gives you a chance to think about whether it's really worth it or not, and how it will make you look.
if you really feel wronged by her, do the shoot. but use someone better than her, who will benefit your portfolio and make her realize she missed out. revenge is never a good idea, but you had a shoot in mind, and there's no reason to abandon it because one piece of the puzzle didnt show up.
:] Thanks for this great advice duly taken I was contemplating venting my spleen until I read this thanks again.
Bill
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13559
Washington, Utah, US
When a model flakes or cancels last minute I:
Shoot stills
or
Edit Pics from the last shoot.
or
Do yard work
or
Play on the MM forums
or
Watch TV.
Photographer
Tom Nguyen Studio
Posts: 433
Shakopee, Minnesota, US
I order pizza and plan my revenge whilst eating it.
Photographer
Dan K Photography
Posts: 5581
STATEN ISLAND, New York, US
The same thing we do every night, Pinky—try to take over the world
Photographer
Rp-photo
Posts: 42711
Houston, Texas, US
When a model flakes, I use the time to get ahead on my usual editing backlog.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
jasonbaca wrote:
Funny thing is, we were set to do a shoot and the model didn't show. I ended up posting something on here to let others know that this person is possibly flaky... then they turn around and email me and say that I'm rude for "outing" them. Was I wrong for doing this? Absolutely, you were wrong & rude & inappropriate. The bottom line: We have no reason to believe or disbelieve you. And in the USA, people are just not found guilty simply because they are accused. You may say that Suzi flaked on you, but until & unless we hear Suzi's side of the story, it is inappropriate for us to draw conclusions. (Exception: feel free to say anything you want if you are asked for a reference, and you can also talk to the photographers who know & trust you, too).
So, what do I do if/when a model flakes?
... Models rarely flake on me -- I've had 2 flakes in ~18 years.
... My flake rate is so good in large part because I am selective when choosing
models.
... I check references.
... I prefer experienced models.
... Since my web site brings in revenue, I'm happy to pay models.
... I have had a few "go-to" models (local models who may be available at a
moment's notice).
... I find something productive to do with the unexpected free time.
... I leave the lights up, and call one of my friends over for some portrait work
that evening or the next day or so.
... I may or may not work with that model ever again.
... I don't need to know what happened -- I'm not curious, & I don't ask.
... I'm a local communication hub for the several dozen local photographers; if a
traveling model flakes on me, I might make a note of it when I produce the
weekly traveling model summary that I e-mail to everyone. (See, this is
different because the local photographers know me).
... In general, many local photographers communicate on a regular basis. We have
an excellent "grapevine".
... I never, ever start a flake thread.
... I don't tell my sob story to strangers.
Photographer
Pete Georges
Posts: 48
Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada
jasonbaca wrote:
I am curious, I won't name out any names of people, but I'd be curious to know from the experts.. Say you book a model, a female model to do a shoot for you. Maybe you had a couples shoot you were going to do. The one model arrives on time ready to go. The female does not.
There are no phone calls to let you know, no texts... so the shoot gets cancelled.. Then the next day you follow up with the model to find out what happened...
Funny thing is, we were set to do a shoot and the model didn't show. I ended up posting something on here to let others know that this person is possibly flaky... then they turn around and email me and say that I'm rude for "outing" them. Was I wrong for doing this? [/quote ]...... MOVE ON ! NEXT !
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