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Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,013
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


http://translate.google.com/translate?h … md%3Dimvns


Basically, A little boy in Berlin, Alex, wants to be a girl. Her dad who is separated from her mom decided that wasn't okay, and took it to court. The court has found that her mom is an unfit parent for allowing their child to be transgendered, and Alex could be forcibly locked up in a mental ward to undergo "therapy" until she is "fixed" and conforms to a male gender identity. She and her mother tried to appeal it, and lost. If she's released from the hospital, she would be placed into foster care because the father can't get custody and the mother is "unfit" for supporting her daughter in being a transgendered child

I've been watching the news and tumblr updates on this for a little while, and find the whole thing sickening, but something odd was making it especially bothering to me, and I realized tonight what that was. I remembered seeing a Cold Case episode "boy crazy" from a few years ago, that was about the true story of a 1960's murder of a teenage female who dressed and acted like a boy. He was institutionalized for it. At the time, shock therapy was the drug of choice, they wound up frying his brain so badly it finally killed him simply because he wouldn't be a "proper young lady". I don't expect whoever is handling this little girls case to shock her to death, but it still makes me wonder what sort of "fixing" they're going to do to her. What exactly does "therapy" for a transsexual consist of in a place where they think being a trans person means youre broken? Is there a drug? A training exercise? Will they just keep her locked up until she goes insane all on her own or finally does what they tell her to do? She's eleven for fucks sake. And she won't even get to go back to her parents if she is released. A confused transgendered 11yo in foster care. That's brilliant.

It's just so incredibly sad. And in a round about way makes me realize that while the US is still plenty fucked right now, at least we've made SOME improvement. The LGBTQ community still has a long way to go in terms of being accepted here, but at least we're not locking little kids away in psych wards, we're not murdering them in our hospitals for being different anymore.
Apr 10 12 03:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jim Ball
Posts: 17,072
Frontenac, Kansas, US


Sad and pitiful.  This child has identified as a female since old enough to speak and identify themself by gender.  My understanding is that the young Canadian TG lady in the recent news, and subject of a long & contentious MM thread, also identified herself as female from very early childhood.

I believe science will eventually identify the genetic markers or prenatal brain changes that cause a person of male or female birth to identify themselves as the opposite sex or perhaps even have a sexual attraction for their own sex, with a wide variance in manifestation.

In other words, I think they are born that way, so how does one 'fix' what is hard-wired from birth?
Apr 10 12 04:43 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Bella la Bell
Posts: 4,451
Kansas City, Missouri, US


yikes
Why?
Seriously why?
yikes
Upsets me. sad
Apr 10 12 06:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SKPhoto
Posts: 25,779
Newark, California, US


Jim Ball wrote:
In other words, I think they are born that way, so how does one 'fix' what is hard-wired from birth?

Most of the maladies we succumb to have been hard-wired into us from birth.

Some just appear sooner rather than later. Or in response to external stimuli.

Like cars.

Apr 10 12 08:38 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Jim Ball wrote:
I believe science will eventually identify the genetic markers or prenatal brain changes that cause a person of male or female birth to identify themselves as the opposite sex or perhaps even have a sexual attraction for their own sex, with a wide variance in manifestation.

sincerely doubt it. first of all because it's not merely genetics, and besides that there's no such thing as a 100% identification of male or female gender, there are many gradations and variations... it's not simply a matter of identifying a genetic marker.

Apr 10 12 08:40 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Elizabethmakeup
Posts: 338
Hereford, England, United Kingdom


This sort of thing makes me very sad; I can't imagine what life is like when you just want to be 'who' you are but other people are preoccupied with 'what' you are.

I had a friend who I met when she was pre-op. She was born a male and although I knew that she was pre-op, I always thought of her as 'she' and used the terms 'she' and 'her'. It was really natural and I never had to make a conscious effort to do this. In her mindset, she was a girl and that was how she was accepted (although not by everyone, I have to admit. How some people reacted really made me question whether or not I wanted to know them).

I can understand how some parents can have a hard time accepting such things but to institutionalise your child?! Madness! It is not an illness that can be cured with drugs or shock treatment. I don't understand why we feel the constant need to define people, how WE (sorry, no italics) want them to be defined.

Whatever happened to live and let live?
Apr 10 12 08:46 am  Link  Quote 
Model
DinoUnchained
Posts: 921
Portland, Oregon, US


I thought the treatment for Gender Identity Disorder was gender reassignment surgery...? :-S Sounds like the mother was doing the right thing.

http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides … rview.html
Apr 10 12 09:09 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
Ivory Oasis
Posts: 118
Los Angeles, California, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
It's just so incredibly sad. And in a round about way makes me realize that while the US is still plenty fucked right now, at least we've made SOME improvement. The LGBTQ community still has a long way to go in terms of being accepted here, but at least we're not locking little kids away in psych wards, we're not murdering them in our hospitals for being different anymore.

It is still pretty bad here in the US... I agree it is better, but still not so great...

Yea, it isn't very PC to lock people away in psych wards anymore...

But, we still reject health insurance and even treatment for being trans (ALL the time). And of course family rejecting or abandoning you is pretty normal (even my father did). Because... well ... people generally think it is because you are crazy or perverted.

Abuse is also extremely high. Go into the "wrong bathroom" in the wrong place and you are risking your life...

http://tinyurl.com/8yokl5b

I could go on and on about it ~rant rant~ but lets just say disgusting things happen to trans people all the time... the attempted / suicide rate isn't 41 percent because they are crazy... it is that high because of the huge amount of discrimination and abuse trans people need to deal with...

Apr 10 12 09:15 am  Link  Quote 
Model
DinoUnchained
Posts: 921
Portland, Oregon, US


Ivory Oasis wrote:
...I could go on and on about it ~rant rant~ but lets just say disgusting things happen to trans people all the time... the attempted / suicide rate isn't 41 percent because they are crazy... it is that high because of the huge amount of discrimination and abuse trans people need to deal with...

sad

Apr 10 12 09:52 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Bettie Buxom
Posts: 222
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada


Screamvina wrote:
I thought the treatment for Gender Identity Disorder was gender reassignment surgery...? :-S Sounds like the mother was doing the right thing.

http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides … rview.html

this! I agree

the whole situation is so sad and detrimental to the child sad

Apr 10 12 10:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
udor
Posts: 21,838
New York, New York, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
http://translate.google.com/translate?h … md%3Dimvns


Basically, A little boy in Berlin, Alex, wants to be a girl. Her dad who is separated from her mom decided that wasn't okay, and took it to court. The court has found that her mom is an unfit parent for allowing their child to be transgendered, and Alex could be forcibly locked up in a mental ward to undergo "therapy" until she is "fixed" and conforms to a male gender identity. She and her mother tried to appeal it, and lost. If she's released from the hospital, she would be placed into foster care because the father can't get custody and the mother is "unfit" for supporting her daughter in being a transgendered child

I just read the original in German and they have a few corrections... the case is NOT decided yet...

The argument is that a caregiver, after only one hour of interviewing the kid, decided that the mother 'induced" the transgender personality/identity onto the child, and hence recommended that the mother is unfit to take care of the kid.

Several psychiatrists and experts are being cited to disagree with the idea of induced gender identity, stating that this idea is long outdated!

So, it's still open and they are going in front of the supreme court (constitution related = Bundesverfassungsgericht) to get relief and clarification.

The transfer into a mental institution is lacking a court order... and in addition to that, the institution themselves says that it will NOT accept the child without the childs or the mothers consent respectively!

Apr 10 12 10:32 am  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
Dave the design student
Posts: 45,198
Detroit, Michigan, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
Is there a drug? A training exercise?

Richard Simmons has a DVD.

I'm all for the institutionalization.

11 year old kids can't make decisions about self mutilation.  They don't understand the consequences.  Therefore they have parents.  One parent disagrees.

All that is disgusting is the news media.  Playing out their nightmare so that you, and you and you and I can weigh their story and pass judgement to sell Coke-a-Cola and most of us reassure ourselves we're "good" people, because we believe this and that and can demonstrate that we're capable of emotionally pandering to our peers and following scripted moral high ground.  That to me is disgusting.

Apr 10 12 12:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeffs Photography
Posts: 3,608
Dakota, Minnesota, US


Dave the design student wrote:
11 year old kids can't make decisions about self mutilation.  They don't understand the consequences.  Therefore they have parents.  One parent disagrees.

Self mutilation?

Apr 10 12 12:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeffs Photography
Posts: 3,608
Dakota, Minnesota, US


Ivory Oasis wrote:
But, we still reject health insurance and even treatment for being trans (ALL the time).

How is medical treatment for transgendered individuals covered in other countries?

Apr 10 12 12:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
I N U S H K A
Posts: 92
Clearwater, Florida, US


It is clearly a misunderstanding of sorts, where media wants to drum up the war drum and sensationalize the incident, which perhaps is much simpler and resolvable. Despite the, still present, misunderstanding of Gender Dysphoria by society at large, nearly all western societies recognize such as merely birth defect and not so much a psychiatric anomaly anymore, Thank GOD!

Treatment consists of psychological evaluation, prolonged psychological therapy to find out if such individual is in fact Dysphoric (unhappy with their birth bodies sexual characteristic) and at the end if pronounced transsexual, introduced to the long treacherous process of transition, the younger the patient the easier transition!

So I am sure he/she will be in good hands, I so hope we don't live in medieval times of inquisition anymore, or do we?!
Apr 10 12 12:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
DinoUnchained
Posts: 921
Portland, Oregon, US


Dave the design student wrote:
11 year old kids can't make decisions about self mutilation.  They don't understand the consequences.  Therefore they have parents.  One parent disagrees.

All that is disgusting is the news media.  Playing out their nightmare so that you, and you and you and I can weigh their story and pass judgement to sell Coke-a-Cola and most of us reassure ourselves we're "good" people, because we believe this and that and can demonstrate that we're capable of emotionally pandering to our peers and following scripted moral high ground.  That to me is disgusting.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=308 … 4SSYdm412A

Apr 10 12 01:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Digital Soup
Posts: 20,901
Long Beach, California, US


Mad World Going nowhere!
Apr 10 12 01:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
What Fun Productions
Posts: 20,146
Phoenix, Arizona, US


i n n a wrote:
It is clearly a misunderstanding of sorts, where media wants to drum up the war drum and sensationalize the incident, which perhaps is much simpler and resolvable. Despite the, still present, misunderstanding of Gender Dysphoria by society at large, nearly all western societies recognize such as merely birth defect and not so much a psychiatric anomaly anymore, Thank GOD!

Treatment consists of psychological evaluation, prolonged psychological therapy to find out if such individual is in fact Dysphoric (unhappy with their birth bodies sexual characteristic) and at the end if pronounced transsexual, introduced to the long treacherous process of transition, the younger the patient the easier transition!

So I am sure he/she will be in good hands, I so hope we don't live in medieval times of inquisition anymore, or do we?!

Who pays for this?

Apr 10 12 01:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,013
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Screamvina wrote:
I thought the treatment for Gender Identity Disorder was gender reassignment surgery...? :-S Sounds like the mother was doing the right thing.

http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides … rview.html

Unfortunately I don't think that's the kind of treatment she's going to be given in the psych ward sad

Apr 10 12 01:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,013
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Dave the design student wrote:

Richard Simmons has a DVD.

I'm all for the institutionalization.

11 year old kids can't make decisions about self mutilation.  They don't understand the consequences.  Therefore they have parents.  One parent disagrees.

All that is disgusting is the news media.  Playing out their nightmare so that you, and you and you and I can weigh their story and pass judgement to sell Coke-a-Cola and most of us reassure ourselves we're "good" people, because we believe this and that and can demonstrate that we're capable of emotionally pandering to our peers and following scripted moral high ground.  That to me is disgusting.

The fact that you a)think a person needs to be locked up to receive psych review and b) mentioned self-mutilation in regards to a trans child makes anything you could possibly ever say on the subject entirely and utterly wrong neutral

Apr 10 12 01:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,013
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


i n n a wrote:
It is clearly a misunderstanding of sorts, where media wants to drum up the war drum and sensationalize the incident, which perhaps is much simpler and resolvable. Despite the, still present, misunderstanding of Gender Dysphoria by society at large, nearly all western societies recognize such as merely birth defect and not so much a psychiatric anomaly anymore, Thank GOD!

Treatment consists of psychological evaluation, prolonged psychological therapy to find out if such individual is in fact Dysphoric (unhappy with their birth bodies sexual characteristic) and at the end if pronounced transsexual, introduced to the long treacherous process of transition, the younger the patient the easier transition!

So I am sure he/she will be in good hands, I so hope we don't live in medieval times of inquisition anymore, or do we?!

Psychiatric review is one thing, institutionalization is another. I can go sit in a comfy chair in a doctors office a few times a week and talk about anything that might be upsetting me, and then go home,  I don't have to get locked up in a hospital to do it. Instituionalizing typically only happens when the person is dangerous to themselves or others, doesn't have someone to care for them and needs constant monitoring, or otherwise simply cannot safely function in society because of their condition. Transgenderedness is not any of those things, there's no need to lock someone up for it.

I thank Udor for some clarification, the translation and other articles I assume came from the rough translation sucked, it's good to see that the case is still open and most doctors are against it, but the fact that someone with a high enough power to make this thing go to court in the first place still suggested it is appalling

Apr 10 12 01:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jason Haven
Posts: 38,283
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Depressing, and a little surprising.
Apr 10 12 02:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
I N U S H K A
Posts: 92
Clearwater, Florida, US


What Fun Productions wrote:

Who pays for this?

The afflicted!

Apr 10 12 02:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
I N U S H K A
Posts: 92
Clearwater, Florida, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
Psychiatric review is one thing, institutionalization is another. I can go sit in a comfy chair in a doctors office a few times a week and talk about anything that might be upsetting me, and then go home,  I don't have to get locked up in a hospital to do it. Instituionalizing typically only happens when the person is dangerous to themselves or others, doesn't have someone to care for them and needs constant monitoring, or otherwise simply cannot safely function in society because of their condition. Transgenderedness is not any of those things, there's no need to lock someone up for it.

I thank Udor for some clarification, the translation and other articles I assume came from the rough translation sucked, it's good to see that the case is still open and most doctors are against it, but the fact that someone with a high enough power to make this thing go to court in the first place still suggested it is appalling

There are international medical standards which ensure no injustice will be done, European Union as well as US follow these rules, they are called Harry Benjamin Standards of care and are implemented through WPATH professional medical association!  So to think something as horrible as psychiatric dungeon or electro-shock for a transgender person is rather unthinkable and I think far fetched. Although there are countries around the world which would happily torture a woman for speaking her mind!

Apr 10 12 02:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17,910
Los Angeles, California, US


Dave the design student wrote:

Richard Simmons has a DVD.

I'm all for the institutionalization.

11 year old kids can't make decisions about self mutilation.  They don't understand the consequences.  Therefore they have parents.  One parent disagrees.

All that is disgusting is the news media.  Playing out their nightmare so that you, and you and you and I can weigh their story and pass judgement to sell Coke-a-Cola and most of us reassure ourselves we're "good" people, because we believe this and that and can demonstrate that we're capable of emotionally pandering to our peers and following scripted moral high ground.  That to me is disgusting.

Mods, if Dave doesn't want to be on MM anymore why don't we go ahead and make that possible?

Apr 10 12 02:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
netmodel
Posts: 6,786
Austin, Texas, US


What's so sad is that we impose gender roles and they feel threatened if the gender roles don't "jibe" with their sex.
Apr 10 12 02:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kozmina
Posts: 6,533
Colorado Springs, Colorado, US


Hearing this makes me sick to my stomach.WTF is wrong with people???

I wanna know what whack job graduated with a degree in psychology and "thinks" a transgendered person can be "changed/fixed"???
Apr 10 12 02:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Henna N.
Posts: 3,446
Gaithersburg, Maryland, US


What the hell.

This is disgusting.

And any individual that agrees with this is disgusting as well.
Apr 10 12 02:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Fifi
Posts: 58,131
Annapolis, Maryland, US


udor wrote:

I just read the original in German and they have a few corrections... the case is NOT decided yet...

The argument is that a caregiver, after only one hour of interviewing the kid, decided that the mother 'induced" the transgender personality/identity onto the child, and hence recommended that the mother is unfit to take care of the kid.

Several psychiatrists and experts are being cited to disagree with the idea of induced gender identity, stating that this idea is long outdated!

So, it's still open and they are going in front of the supreme court (constitution related = Bundesverfassungsgericht) to get relief and clarification.

The transfer into a mental institution is lacking a court order... and in addition to that, the institution themselves says that it will NOT accept the child without the childs or the mothers consent respectively!

If this is truly the case, I don't see anything wrong for putting the child into a psych hospital.

Like another person said, it could help reverse whatever damage the mother did or, if the child really is transgendered, it could also help with their transition.

Being institutionalized isn't as barbaric as they show in movies... and, getting awat for awhile can go a long way in helping when the world around you is totally fucked up.

Apr 10 12 08:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shon D.- Homme
Posts: 3,190
Virginia Beach, Virginia, US


:-(
Apr 10 12 09:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shon D.- Homme
Posts: 3,190
Virginia Beach, Virginia, US


udor wrote:
I just read the original in German and they have a few corrections... the case is NOT decided yet...

The argument is that a caregiver, after only one hour of interviewing the kid, decided that the mother 'induced" the transgender personality/identity onto the child, and hence recommended that the mother is unfit to take care of the kid.

Several psychiatrists and experts are being cited to disagree with the idea of induced gender identity, stating that this idea is long outdated!

So, it's still open and they are going in front of the supreme court (constitution related = Bundesverfassungsgericht) to get relief and clarification.

The transfer into a mental institution is lacking a court order... and in addition to that, the institution themselves says that it will NOT accept the child without the childs or the mothers consent respectively!

This confuses me because it could be argued that gender is, itself, induced. We steer little boys into playing with matchbox cars and football teams and little girls into playing with easy-bake ovens and dolls.

Anyway, is the argument that is being made that child is not actually transgendered? Has the child actually attested to this?

Apr 10 12 09:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MiaSparks
Posts: 323
Chanute, Kansas, US


This brought back some old memories.
Apr 11 12 11:22 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
Ivory Oasis
Posts: 118
Los Angeles, California, US


Shon D.- Homme wrote:
This confuses me because it could be argued that gender is, itself, induced. We steer little boys into playing with matchbox cars and football teams and little girls into playing with easy-bake ovens and dolls.

I'm afraid if that were true, there wouldn't be transgendered people... their parents would just need to yell at them more to "act like a boy".

The huge majority of trans people grow up in environments very non accepting of their differences...and the trans person learns how to hide what they are feeling and act "normal".

Apr 11 12 12:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
DinoUnchained
Posts: 921
Portland, Oregon, US


Shon D.- Homme wrote:
This confuses me because it could be argued that gender is, itself, induced. We steer little boys into playing with matchbox cars and football teams and little girls into playing with easy-bake ovens and dolls.
Ivory Oasis wrote:
I'm afraid if that were true, there wouldn't be transgendered people... their parents would just need to yell at them more to "act like a boy".

The huge majority of trans people grow up in environments very non accepting of their differences...and the trans person learns how to hide what they are feeling and act "normal".

As much as parents would like to believe their actions are the strongest influence on a developing a child's personality, it really is more about genetics. I think the following link may help some to understand better why the "act like a boy" strategy doesn't work.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TScauses.html

Apr 11 12 12:45 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Shon D.- Homme wrote:
Anyway, is the argument that is being made that child is not actually transgendered? Has the child actually attested to this?

I've read about several cases where a child grew up being gender "confused" (boys wanting to be girls and vice versa) but didn't turn out to be transgender after all. it was just that: a phase. Sometimes, it happens. SO I'm all for extensive counselling: like others have mentionned: psych wards are not what they used to be, and eather way the child can benefit from therapy, no matter what the outcome.

I hope this kid turns out alright, no matter what the outcome is

Apr 11 12 04:30 pm  Link  Quote 
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