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Model
Eleanor Rose
Posts: 2,241
Santa Rosa, California, US


I know many of us on here wish more people realized that nude and naked are not interchangeable, and that there is a distinct and important difference between the two words.

I thought some of you might be interested to know that American Sign Language (ASL) accepts that difference, and actually shows the distinction between the two words far more clearly than English. Each word in ASL has five components (handshape, location, etc.), one of which is Non-Manual Markers. In a nutshell, facial expression. This is one of the most important components - the signs for 'I understand' and 'I don't understand' differ only in facial expression. The same is true for 'nude' and 'naked'.

To sign naked 'Naked' in ASL, the handsign is accompanied by an expression similar to what we often see in pinup. It indicates shock, scandal, amusement, and/or horror, depending on the situation. Nude, on the other hand, utilize a facial expression that is either indifferent or slightly proud, again depending on the situation.

I thought this might be of interest to some of you, if for nothing other than new and quirky knowledge. It's just something I learned today in my ASL class and am thrilled about.

I didn't intend for this to start a debate on nude vs. nude, and I don't believe my opinion is the only correct way to see this issue. I just thought those of you who share my opinion might be interested in this information. lol
Apr 19 12 05:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,212
Orlando, Florida, US


Eleanor R wrote:
I know many of us on here wish more people realized that nude and naked are not interchangeable, and that there is a distinct and important difference between the two words.

I thought some of you might be interested to know that American Sign Language (ASL) accepts that difference, and actually shows the distinction between the two words far more clearly than English. Each word in ASL has five components (handshape, location, etc.), one of which is Non-Manual Markers. In a nutshell, facial expression. This is one of the most important components - the signs for 'I understand' and 'I don't understand' differ only in facial expression. The same is true for 'nude' and 'naked'.

To sign naked 'Naked' in ASL, the handsign is accompanied by an expression similar to what we often see in pinup. It indicates shock, scandal, amusement, and/or horror, depending on the situation. Nude, on the other hand, utilize a facial expression that is either indifferent or slightly proud, again depending on the situation.

I thought this might be of interest to some of you, if for nothing other than new and quirky knowledge. It's just something I learned today in my ASL class and am thrilled about.

I find it more interesting that you proclaim that there is a distinct difference between the two words, but stop short of saying what the difference is.

Care to post the 2nd half of your opinion?

It's also interesting to note that I just looked it up (google style) and saw no difference in the signing.

http://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/NAKED/3936/1
http://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/NUDE/6820/1

Apr 19 12 05:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Average Jim
Posts: 162
Portland, Oregon, US


I would be curious as to how they sign for it in the south....

how do you sign "Nekkid"?
Apr 19 12 05:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wysiwyg Photography
Posts: 6,326
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:

I find it more interesting that you proclaim that there is a distinct difference between the two words, but stop short of saying what the difference is.

Care to post the 2nd half of your opinion?

It's also interesting to note that I just looked it up (google style) and saw no difference in the signing.

http://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/NAKED/3936/1
http://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/NUDE/6820/1

Interesting.

Yeah, I tend to agree though.

There really is no difference... Semantics really.

BUT, when talking about professionalism I'm more likely to say to a model "I am looking to do some fine art nudes or some nudity is requires for the project of which I'm thinking".

Unless I'm more familiar with the model and she is more of a friend.. I wouldn't say "get naked"

So for me the difference be between Naked and Nude is pretty much familiarity. Nude just sounds more professional.

Apr 19 12 05:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eleanor Rose
Posts: 2,241
Santa Rosa, California, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
I find it more interesting that you proclaim that there is a distinct difference between the two words, but stop short of saying what the difference is.

Care to post the 2nd half of your opinion?

I'm sorry, based on the multiple threads I have seen on this topic I assumed most people coming in here would understand the difference. It is not always supported by the dictionary, but generally the words are understood to be defined as such:
Nakedness: A lack of clothing, generally indicating shame.
Nudity: Being in a natural state, not wearing clothes, but not missing them either. Generally indicates a choice, and/or a preference to be in such a state.

The most simple way to put it:
Naked = Uncomfortable.
Nude = Comfortable.

It's also interesting to note that I just looked it up (google style) and saw no difference in the signing.

http://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/NAKED/3936/1
http://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/NUDE/6820/1

I am actually quite disappointed by that... sad However, as I stated, I am in an ASL class. As we were taught, there is a distinction between the two words. It is possible that the compilation you linked to was either made before that distinction was created, or simply thought that it was unimportant, much as many English speakers do.

Apr 19 12 05:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 4,603
Jacksonville, Florida, US


The Average Jim wrote:
I would be curious as to how they sign for it in the south....

how do you sign "Nekkid"?

I LIKE NEKKID smiletongue

Apr 19 12 05:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wysiwyg Photography
Posts: 6,326
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


The Average Jim wrote:
I would be curious as to how they sign for it in the south....

how do you sign "Nekkid"?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRddu9ptKdRDyK1lScXo3Af4ywlfCMFVK8YosKmK4oE9LcFMIgehttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgFHGTRVnDwoSdctmppS1LGIXII5JqXxGJejmLvwlwEFrdYLMehttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-_Js0jqJFAujLbFHZFvBPZLbT8nbh3P15iGwPKdF8QbA3OF82qAhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-_Js0jqJFAujLbFHZFvBPZLbT8nbh3P15iGwPKdF8QbA3OF82qAhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTsCqcHe6tSxe6vh82tLMz4qkXpRhw0S_PehuYsCxD1A-aDZ02-http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQCU0l4GVgrI7uRSjTDwIkIWRK123qtogvU4htRt54EKbEHkeDkpA

Apr 19 12 05:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
-The Dave-
Posts: 8,608
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I'm naked when I nude.
Apr 19 12 05:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eleanor Rose
Posts: 2,241
Santa Rosa, California, US


Wysiwyg Photography wrote:
Interesting.

Yeah, I tend to agree though.

There really is no difference... Semantics really.

BUT, when talking about professionalism I'm more likely to say to a model "I am looking to do some fine art nudes or some nudity is requires for the project of which I'm thinking".

Unless I'm more familiar with the model and she is more of a friend.. I wouldn't say "get naked"

So for me the difference be between Naked and Nude is pretty much familiarity. Nude just sounds more professional.

You're right- it is mostly semantics. But being a nude model, I find it to be important. While I am fine with a photographer I am friends with telling me to get naked, I don't want my family or random people who know what I do to think I get paid to be naked, because I don't. I get paid to model, and I choose to do so nude. I may get more or different jobs because of that, but I don't get paid to be naked.

Technically, I am naked, yes. But the connotations that have been attached to the words differ. I prefer having the option to explain the difference, semantics though it may be. I don't model naked - I model nude, and I choose to wear that nudity as a garb that I am far more comfortable in than any clothing.

I apologize if it seemed that I am trying to start a debate about the intentions of the words- I simply thought it was interesting that ASL also carries those semantics.

Apr 19 12 05:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Warren Photography
Posts: 725
GLENMOORE, Pennsylvania, US


I would characterize the difference between "nude" and "naked" as:

Nude = unclothed, revealed.

Naked = exposed, vulnerable.

Also implied is that one is "comfortable" when nude, but "uncomfortable" when naked.
Apr 19 12 05:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Westlake
Posts: 1,516
Mansfield Center, Connecticut, US


The Average Jim wrote:
I would be curious as to how they sign for it in the south....

how do you sign "Nekkid"?

Naked means you have no clothes on. Nekkid means you have no clothes on and you're up to somethin'.

Apr 19 12 06:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wysiwyg Photography
Posts: 6,326
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Ken Warren Photography wrote:
I would characterize the difference between "nude" and "naked" as:

Nude = unclothed, revealed.

Naked = exposed, vulnerable.

Also implied is that one is "comfortable" when nude, but "uncomfortable" when naked.

From Google:
nude/n(y)o͞od/Adjective:    Wearing no clothes; naked.


Noun: A naked human figure, typically as the subject of a painting, sculpture, or photograph.

na·ked/ˈnākid/Adjective:    (of a person or part of the body) Without clothes.

Apr 19 12 06:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jason Haven
Posts: 38,287
Washington, District of Columbia, US


I prefer "nekkid".
Apr 19 12 06:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Parsons
Posts: 972
Quincy, Massachusetts, US


Wysiwyg Photography wrote:

From Google:
nude/n(y)o͞od/Adjective:    Wearing no clothes; naked.


Noun: A naked human figure, typically as the subject of a painting, sculpture, or photograph.

na·ked/ˈnākid/Adjective:    (of a person or part of the body) Without clothes.

Those are accurate definitions, but they don't convey the connotations of the words.

IMO, naked is a description of your state of undress.  Nude implies a state of mind or a behavior associated with wearing no clothes.  YMMV

Apr 19 12 06:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Don Garrett
Posts: 4,298
Escondido, California, US


I see you didn't anticipate the inevitable shit storm coming from this post. I like to think that the difference is in the viewer. Some are offended by nudity, or nakedness, and others are not. In both cases, a state of undress is the defining factor. I tend to see the two terms as being synonymous, but I understand the difference you are trying to point out, and that ASL, apparently, acknowledges. Again, I see the "issue" as ONLY being "in the eyes of the beholder". Interesting topic, I just think it was presented in the wrong place !
  How the naked, (nude), form is presented, (in photography), can be either for the purpose of sexual stimulation, OR for the purpose of creating a display of beauty, (porn, or "art"). I tend to stay away from such distinctions, and judge an image on it's technical merit, (the skill involved in creating it). I see sexual stimulation as a positive, natural phenomenon, and images designed with only that intention in mind are no less valid than the display of a figure only for "art's sake". Again, some are offended, and others are not. That's their problem, or the lack of, in my opinion.
  I also think the comfort, or lack of comfort, when nude, or naked, is individual, and only a problem for that individual, and others who share that point of view.
-Don
Apr 19 12 06:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,980
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Eleanor R wrote:

Good Egg Productions wrote:
I find it more interesting that you proclaim that there is a distinct difference between the two words, but stop short of saying what the difference is.

Care to post the 2nd half of your opinion?

I'm sorry, based on the multiple threads I have seen on this topic I assumed most people coming in here would understand the difference. It is not always supported by the dictionary, but generally the words are understood to be defined as such:
Nakedness: A lack of clothing, generally indicating shame.
Nudity: Being in a natural state, not wearing clothes, but not missing them either. Generally indicates a choice, and/or a preference to be in such a state.

The most simple way to put it:
Naked = Uncomfortable.
Nude = Comfortable.


I am actually quite disappointed by that... sad However, as I stated, I am in an ASL class. As we were taught, there is a distinction between the two words. It is possible that the compilation you linked to was either made before that distinction was created, or simply thought that it was unimportant, much as many English speakers do.

ALMOST.....

I'm the parent of a Deaf, ASL user, former ASL interpreter and taught ASL at the university level, so a few MINOR corrections....

ASL really doesn't have "words" per se, but rather "concepts."  Eleanor is correct that much like tonal languages, ASL can use the same "parts" (handhsape, direction) but the application of speed, force and facial grammar (the more current term for facial expression) will differentiate between different concepts.

That said, the videos linked above are really the same.  They suffer from the unfortunate reality that lots of hearing folks demand a 1:1 correlation from "word" to "sign".  Also that the size of the video makes the visual grammar very difficult to see, so to save resources, these catalog-type dictionaries often re-use clips that are "close."  This isn't too bad since the folks that generally use these are at an "infant" level in their ASL acquisition, so usually don't "see" the very subtle visual grammar differences that they will internalize later in their studies.

I would also say that when I sign these two concepts, the supra-segmental differences depend on context.  If I'm signing with someone who is an artist, nudist, etc, my facial and body grammar will be mostly neutral.

If the context is taking dirty "naked pics oooooh" then the body and facial grammar will be more salacious.

In both cases, I'm not signing ASL translations of the English WORDS "nude" or "naked" but rather the CONCEPT of being without clothing.

Unless I'm using "naked" to mean vulnerable, in which case I'll use that sign.

Or "exposed", etc...

@OP, hopefully your ASL studies will offer the opportunity to get into the Deaf community enough to see that for any one English word, there are 5 or 6 or more signs.  Also, hopefully, you'll get to the point where you stop translating and just start encoding thoughts directly into ASL, and decode ASL directly into thought.

Apr 19 12 06:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
- Phil H -
Posts: 25,214
Bury Saint Edmunds, England, United Kingdom


Moderator Note!
Moving to Off Topic.
Apr 19 12 06:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Happy Guy Photos
Posts: 1,124
Upland, California, US


To Elizabeth R --

I don't think the two terms are related with one another. It's like comparing an animate object (favorite pet) with an inanimate object (favorite CD). They both may bring you happiness, but one doesn't need to be fed while the other does.

Or it's like comparing being alone with being lonely. You can have many people around you but still feel empty, while the person reading an interesting book by himself is in bliss. Again, the two terms aren't related to one another.

Gabby
Apr 19 12 06:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Michael Scot
Posts: 860
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, US


Ken Warren Photography wrote:
I would characterize the difference between "nude" and "naked" as:

Nude = unclothed, revealed.

Naked = exposed, vulnerable.

Also implied is that one is "comfortable" when nude, but "uncomfortable" when naked.

I guess it depends on the company.  Among experienced persons, the above definition is standard.  However, if a person does not understand the distinction between the concept of vulnerable, and revealed, I just accept that their understanding of nudity has room to grow.  Likewise, they probably still need to break the association of nudity and sexuality.  We were all there at some point.

Apr 19 12 06:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eleanor Rose
Posts: 2,241
Santa Rosa, California, US


- Phil H - wrote:
Moving to Off Topic.

Thank you!

Apr 19 12 06:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
- Phil H -
Posts: 25,214
Bury Saint Edmunds, England, United Kingdom


Eleanor R wrote:

Thank you!

You're welcome smile

Apr 19 12 06:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
976 Photography
Posts: 4,599
Shreveport, Louisiana, US


I think I understand what the OP is trying to say...

"Nude" implies that the model is posing nude, with their naughty bits on display.

"Naked" implies that the model is actually naked, but you can't see the naughty bits.

Thus, in photographic terms, you can be naked in a picture without it being a "nude shot" (insert "implied" arguments here) while a nude shot requires the 18+ tag.
Apr 19 12 06:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
r T p
Posts: 2,889
Los Angeles, California, US



i
f its in color its naked

if its in b&w its nude
Apr 19 12 06:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eleanor Rose
Posts: 2,241
Santa Rosa, California, US


Professor Oni wrote:

ALMOST.....

I'm the parent of a Deaf, ASL user, former ASL interpreter and taught ASL at the university level, so a few MINOR corrections....

ASL really doesn't have "words" per se, but rather "concepts."  Eleanor is correct that much like tonal languages, ASL can use the same "parts" (handhsape, direction) but the application of speed, force and facial grammar (the more current term for facial expression) will differentiate between different concepts.

That said, the videos linked above are really the same.  They suffer from the unfortunate reality that lots of hearing folks demand a 1:1 correlation from "word" to "sign".  Also that the size of the video makes the visual grammar very difficult to see, so to save resources, these catalog-type dictionaries often re-use clips that are "close."  This isn't too bad since the folks that generally use these are at an "infant" level in their ASL acquisition, so usually don't "see" the very subtle visual grammar differences that they will internalize later in their studies.

I would also say that when I sign these two concepts, the supra-segmental differences depend on context.  If I'm signing with someone who is an artist, nudist, etc, my facial and body grammar will be mostly neutral.

If the context is taking dirty "naked pics oooooh" then the body and facial grammar will be more salacious.

In both cases, I'm not signing ASL translations of the English WORDS "nude" or "naked" but rather the CONCEPT of being without clothing.

Unless I'm using "naked" to mean vulnerable, in which case I'll use that sign.

Or "exposed", etc...

@OP, hopefully your ASL studies will offer the opportunity to get into the Deaf community enough to see that for any one English word, there are 5 or 6 or more signs.  Also, hopefully, you'll get to the point where you stop translating and just start encoding thoughts directly into ASL, and decode ASL directly into thought.

Hey, thanks! I have been taught and am beginning to pick up on the language using concepts over words. I feel kind of silly for forgetting that.

Given what you have said, it may be that my teachers simply understand the distinction between the two. Either way, I find the language's capacity for communication fascinating. It allows for nuances that we cannot always achieve through tone of voice.

Thanks for the input!

Apr 19 12 06:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,980
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Eleanor R wrote:

Hey, thanks! I have been taught and am beginning to pick up on the language using concepts over words. I feel kind of silly for forgetting that.

Given what you have said, it may be that my teachers simply understand the distinction between the two. Either way, I find the language's capacity for communication fascinating. It allows for nuances that we cannot always achieve through tone of voice.

Thanks for the input!

You're welcome.  I've been signing for 28 years and continue to find your observation spot on.

Apr 19 12 06:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eleanor Rose
Posts: 2,241
Santa Rosa, California, US


976 Photography wrote:
I think I understand what the OP is trying to say...

"Nude" implies that the model is posing nude, with their naughty bits on display.

"Naked" implies that the model is actually naked, but you can't see the naughty bits.

Thus, in photographic terms, you can be naked in a picture without it being a "nude shot" (insert "implied" arguments here) while a nude shot requires the 18+ tag.

Hmmm... While I understand your argument, and actually appreciate it as a way to define between implied and not-implied photos, that actually isn't the distinction I was aiming for. Instead, I was referring to the connotations often attached to the words. It is best described above as nude implies comfort, while naked implies discomfort.

Apr 19 12 06:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
beta
Posts: 2,050
Nashville, Tennessee, US


The Average Jim wrote:
I would be curious as to how they sign for it in the south....

how do you sign "Nekkid"?

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQr3CME0vXac-B-kOCFmpVhVSJj3VlanOPqqV88hBfNyG-4C_a7

Apr 19 12 07:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Svend
Posts: 25,125
Boulder, Colorado, US


penn wrote:
https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQr3CME0vXac-B-kOCFmpVhVSJj3VlanOPqqV88hBfNyG-4C_a7

Worked on me...

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/080728/22/488e81240a055.jpg

Apr 19 12 07:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
beta
Posts: 2,050
Nashville, Tennessee, US


Svend wrote:

Worked on me...

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/080728/22/488e81240a055.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQuoZ4ugXEganeC2o9GejImOLWMu6jEqwukMo5jId8nTkegEGad

Apr 19 12 07:21 pm  Link  Quote 
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