Herman Surkis
Posts: 6,230
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Matthews, Avenger and ... ?
Some people love c-stands. Others say they should only be used as grips.
In movie industry I hear there is a saying, no lights on a c-stand. I thought they were actually more stable then regular light stands.
Would you put an Einstein and large softbox on the end of c-stand grip arm?
Should you get a proper boom arm for a c-stand?
People generally love them. McNally uses them all the time, but how much weight can a speedlight put on one, even with a large softbox.
Some people love c-stands. Others say they should only be used as grips.
In movie industry I hear there is a saying, no lights on a c-stand. I thought they were actually more stable then regular light stands.
Would you put an Einstein and large softbox on the end of c-stand grip arm?
Should you get a proper boom arm for a c-stand?
People generally love them. McNally uses them all the time, but how much weight can a speedlight put on one, even with a large softbox.
There are a few important conflicting opinions.
I've put an Elinchrom 600 RX and a 53 inch Octa on a boom off a c stand.properly sandbagged.
I prefer them. They're heavier and more cumbersome but less expensive than replacing fallen gear.
If shooting on location, I like them because they have more weight than Smith Victor type stands - on anything but the softest ground as long as they're bagged, it takes gale force winds to knock 'em down.
I prefer c-stands for the stability. they are more bulky when i go mobile - so depending the shoot, the set up, and the gear i need, i may not take them on location - just depends. But I do prefer them over standard stands.
Fotographia Fantastique wrote: If shooting on location, I like them because they have more weight than Smith Victor type stands - on anything but the softest ground as long as they're bagged, it takes gale force winds to knock 'em down.
Pretty much agree with this... got one in each SM studio room... I think they're great. They are hands down the most stable lightstands I have... would NEVER go on location with them thou... way too freakin heavy. Studio pics on the MM page.
As a former grip I can say that c stands can take a lot of weight if they are from a good Mfg. and are in good condition. Make sure that you have a lot of weight on the base, extend the arm out over a leg, and possibly put some counter weight on the opposite end of the arm holding the light, etc. Also remember the rule, righty tighty, lefty loosy; keep the knuckle on the right, so that the downward movement of the weighted arm tightens the connection.
Herman Surkis
Posts: 6,230
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
RTE Photography wrote: As a former grip I can say that c stands can take a lot of weight if they are from a good Mfg. and are in good condition. Make sure that you have a lot of weight on the base, extend the arm out over a leg, and possibly put some counter weight on the opposite end of the arm holding the light, etc. Also remember the rule, righty tighty, lefty loosy; keep the knuckle on the right, so that the downward movement of the weighted arm tightens the connection.
I keep reading that and hope to hell I remember.
So you would not worry about putting an Einstien on a Matthews C-stand?
40" Grip arm or true boom with counter weight?
Grip arm is designed for flags etc. but, would it take an Einstein with a softbox?
Herman Surkis wrote: I keep reading that and hope to hell I remember.
So you would not worry about putting an Einstien on a Matthews C-stand?
40" Grip arm or true boom with counter weight?
Grip arm is designed for flags etc. but, would it take an Einstein with a softbox?
Technically you shouldn't put a light on a gobo arm, you should use a counter weighted boom, but as long as it is not too heavy (an Einstein is OK with a medium softbox) you can do that. Basically use common sense.
Herman Surkis
Posts: 6,230
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Brian Scanlon wrote:
Technically you shouldn't put a light on a gobo arm, you should use a counter weighted boom, but as long as it is not too heavy (an Einstein is OK with a medium softbox) you can do that. Basically use common sense.
Thanks.
Friend who is thinking to buy a couple of Avengers, (hope he does so I can borrow them), seems to be convinced that you do not need a boom, because there is something special about the Avenger knuckle lock.
Possibly.
But I kind of figure physics is physics and if you move the centre of gravity over far enough, something bed is going to happen. You put 10-15lbs at the end of a 40" arm, and that had better be a damn strong arm, even if the legs have tons of sand on them.
Read also that you put the sand bag on the leg that is underneath the extension arm, and that seems counter intuitive. Or that on the turtle stand the longest/tallest leg should be under the gobo arm, and the sand bag on that leg as it will easily clear the floor that way.
RTE Photography wrote: As a former grip I can say that c stands can take a lot of weight if they are from a good Mfg. and are in good condition. Make sure that you have a lot of weight on the base, extend the arm out over a leg, and possibly put some counter weight on the opposite end of the arm holding the light, etc. Also remember the rule, righty tighty, lefty loosy; keep the knuckle on the right, so that the downward movement of the weighted arm tightens the connection.
Herman Surkis wrote: Grip arm is designed for flags etc. but, would it take an Einstein with a softbox?
I use a similar setup with AB1600s and a beauty dish on a weekly basis. There are several sized grip arms as well; I have both a 40" and a 20" extension arm. There is going to be far more torque on the 40 than there is on the 20 for starters. Ideally you won't need the 40" fully extended. The further you extend the arm the more torque it places on the grip.
Even if the ext. arm bends it doesn't mean it's necessarily breaking. Take a look at bodybuilders doing heavy lifting. The barbell bends like crazy!
i got a c-stand based on reading these forums and it's gathering dust in the garage. that thing is heavy, hard to operate and that skinny little arm is a joke for booming.
Most cinema lights are huge and shouldn't be mounted on a C-stand. C-stands were indeed designed for holding flags and cookies and things of that nature. However, any light designed for a baby stud (most photography lights) is probably safe to mount to a C-stand, assuming you're not using a 7' octa or something. A C-stand is more stable than most photography lightstands. When folks say you shouldn't mount a light to a C-stand, this is the sort of stand they feel you should be using:
Out of curiosity what kind of sandbags do you use? Do you just go to a hardware store and make your own?
For my sandbags, I buy empty ones(meant for photography)from B&H or Amazon. Then I buy kids sandbox sand from Home Depot or Lowes and fill them with that.
hartcons wrote: i got a c-stand based on reading these forums and it's gathering dust in the garage. that thing is heavy, hard to operate and that skinny little arm is a joke for booming.
That skinny little arm is not a boom arm, it's a grip arm. It's meant to hold things like flags, cutters, cookies, gobos, reflectors, etc. If you want a boom arm for a C-Stand, they make them.
Tim Foster wrote: Most cinema lights are huge and shouldn't be mounted on a C-stand. C-stands were indeed designed for holding flags and cookies and things of that nature. However, any light designed for a baby stud (most photography lights) is probably safe to mount to a C-stand, assuming you're not using a 7' octa or something. A C-stand is more stable than most photography lightstands. When folks say you shouldn't mount a light to a C-stand, this is the sort of stand they feel you should be using:
Exactly. Even with a large octa a properly bagged C-Stand is better than most lightweight light stands I see being used. A flash head just isn't that heavy, nor are most moonlights.
I have about 5 of them and use them with my Alien Bees along with different light modifiers including softboxes all the time. I've used the grip arm as a boom many times
I'd be lost without them. With a grip arm, they allow you to get lights into about every imaginable position.
When using like a boom, just make sure they are sand bagged and make sure the tightening "knuckle" is on the right when using the grip arm as a boom. This ensures that the weight of what is on the end of the boom will help to tighten the grip, not loosen it!
Herman Surkis wrote: Thanks.
Friend who is thinking to buy a couple of Avengers, (hope he does so I can borrow them), seems to be convinced that you do not need a boom, because there is something special about the Avenger knuckle lock.
Possibly.
But I kind of figure physics is physics and if you move the centre of gravity over far enough, something bed is going to happen. You put 10-15lbs at the end of a 40" arm, and that had better be a damn strong arm, even if the legs have tons of sand on them.
Read also that you put the sand bag on the leg that is underneath the extension arm, and that seems counter intuitive. Or that on the turtle stand the longest/tallest leg should be under the gobo arm, and the sand bag on that leg as it will easily clear the floor that way.
I would still weight the other end of the grip arm as well as bagging the stand, Even with correct knuckle placement. Most arms have two grip heads, one that will go to the stand and one to hold the gobo/reflector/etc. Put that second head at the bottom of the non-working end and use it as a stop to hang a bag.
That skinny little arm is not a boom arm, it's a grip arm. It's meant to hold things like flags, cutters, cookies, gobos, reflectors, etc. If you want a boom arm for a C-Stand, they make them.
I've had no problems using the grip arm as "mini-boom" of sorts.
Paramour Productions wrote: That skinny little arm is not a boom arm, it's a grip arm. It's meant to hold things like flags, cutters, cookies, gobos, reflectors, etc. If you want a boom arm for a C-Stand, they make them.
Eros Studios wrote: I've had no problems using the grip arm as "mini-boom" of sorts.
So have I with a small flash head, I'm simply saying that if the grip arm doesn't suit your needs (as the poster indicates) they do make proper boom arms, which are better suited for longer booming.
I've used empty bleach (or other gallon and a 1/2) jugs filled with water as counterweights. They transport empty, and you can usually find water at locations.
Herman Surkis wrote: In movie industry I hear there is a saying, no lights on a c-stand. I thought they were actually more stable then regular light stands.
Consider that your Einstein weighs about 4.5 pounds.
This Mole-Richardson Senior 5KW Fresnel weighs over 30 pounds:
Herman Surkis
Posts: 6,230
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Paramour Productions wrote:
Exactly. Even with a large octa a properly bagged C-Stand is better than most lightweight light stands I see being used. A flash head just isn't that heavy, nor are most moonlights.
Ok, how about compared to a decent air cushioned light stand?
There is a lot to be said for the ability to place a turtle base.
Have both regular and C-stands. Given the option, C-stands are my choice for anything that is large or that I need to manipulate in multiple ways. Have a C-stand comple set (with grips and arm) I can change a modifier direction and position way faster than if it's just on a simple stand.
For stuff like background lights, I just use a simple stand. Besides regular C-stands I have ones on casters which are awesome.
Alien LiFe
Posts: 641
San Francisco, California, US
C-stand rocks ...
I have 2 of them, one from Matthews and the other one Avenger. The Avenger is a two-piece C-stand where you can remove the stand from the turtle base thus easy to transport for on-location shooting. I have that big long boom arm too ... but haven't use it that much since the Avenger come with the little arm ...
I use C-stand mostly for overhead light ... usually an Einstein fit with Mola Setti BD ... they are heavy but with sand-bag & C-stand everything is working great ...
Oh, on sand-bag, I swear by BOA bag by Matthews ... the best sand-bag ever, IMHO
I have 8 "C" stands. I use nothing else until I get to very large hot lights or a long boom arm. I use Photogenic Powerlights which are heavy beasts and some mid range hot lights up to about 12 lbs. NONE have problems on a "C" outside in the wind. But I do sandbag them. Usually a single 30lb bag for the heavy stuff and a 15 lb bag for just a monolight with a smaller modifier. It's mostly for the wind outside. Occasionally, in stable conditions, I will even max out their height. Then I sand bag each leg for safety. Actors and models trip over them and THEY fall down not the stand and the light.
Use drop-down pins, though. That way lights don't twist from their own weight. And boom arms are great. The only complaint I have with my Avenger boom is the main knuckle doesn't lock like the knuckle on C-Stands. Someone mentioned that with C-Stands, when you put the knuckle on the right, it tightens under the weight of the light, which is 100% true.
Why, then, didn't Avenger make the knuckle on their boom the same way?! Sometimes the boom slips and starts to slowly drop the arm because its knuckle doesn't self-tighten.
R Michael Walker wrote: I have 8 "C" stands. I use nothing else until I get to very large hot lights or a long boom arm. I use Photogenic Powerlights which are heavy beasts and some mid range hot lights up to about 12 lbs. NONE have problems on a "C" outside in the wind. But I do sandbag them. Usually a single 30lb bag for the heavy stuff and a 15 lb bag for just a monolight with a smaller modifier. It's mostly for the wind outside. Occasionally, in stable conditions, I will even max out their height. Then I sand bag each leg for safety. Actors and models trip over them and THEY fall down not the stand and the light.
have you tried sandbagging the models and actors? might cut down on the tripping.
my one experience with hot lights outdoors I resorted to being the 'yeller' "HEY SLOW DOWN" "hey, keep away from the yellow tape don't run on it". did not make friends that day but there were no equipment delays. I don't have room, or proper air and power for hotlights in my studio so C stands and an overhead rail are more than enough.
Use drop-down pins, though. That way lights don't twist from their own weight. And boom arms are great. The only complaint I have with my Avenger boom is the main knuckle doesn't lock like the knuckle on C-Stands. Someone mentioned that with C-Stands, when you put the knuckle on the right, it tightens under the weight of the light, which is 100% true.
Why, then, didn't Avenger make the knuckle on their boom the same way?! Sometimes the boom slips and starts to slowly drop the arm because its knuckle doesn't self-tighten.
But in any event, C-Stands are baller.
Not sure which Avenger boom you have but the D600 I own definitely has the swivel mount oriented so that if the arm drops it is "self-tightening" by default so to speak ie. the extension/baby-pin side is to the right of the tightening knuckle.
I like C-stands in the studio. On location..only if I need the extra support. I have some Mathews Revenge Stands. They are light enough to carry around (Still not light though) and very sturdy. I used them with a 6x6 scrim on location with water bags and guy rope secured to stakes. It stood up to hefty winds. It will handle, pretty much any strobe light/modifier you use. Any stand you use with a boom.. should have a counter weight and possibly a sandbag to secure it.
C-Stands will do all the above but they are heavy. They fold flat but not down to a short level unless you get the short baby version. And those don't go up very high.
BUT if you're shooting on location in uneven terrain and in adverse conditions, it's a superior stand when you have an adjustable leg on it.
Cupo makes some great C-Stands and accessories. However, I find the C-Stand design to be too cumbersome for still photography. They have great center clamps to get the light very low to the ground.
I prefer the Manfroto Mini and Maxi stands and almost always with wheels.
I also like the small footprint style stands, larger rolling boom arms and wall and celing mounted lights to get rid of stands completely.
I do like the C stand for flags and reflectors as you can multi use them and stack them close together. So more for use for table top product photography.
Tim Foster wrote: Most cinema lights are huge and shouldn't be mounted on a C-stand. C-stands were indeed designed for holding flags and cookies and things of that nature. However, any light designed for a baby stud (most photography lights) is probably safe to mount to a C-stand, assuming you're not using a 7' octa or something. A C-stand is more stable than most photography lightstands. When folks say you shouldn't mount a light to a C-stand, this is the sort of stand they feel you should be using:
Hahahaha!!! $2000.00+ oh Hell to the no!!!! I bought two DJ speaker/lighting stands at a thrift shop for $10.00ea. Had a local machine shop cut, drill and tap a plug for the end of the 1.5" tube and put a 1/4 20 stud. Talk about sturdy!! And fairly light.
Mathews and I wouldn't use a large softboxon mini arm, not because they' break but bcause the end doesn't have indentation that prevents slipping. Also no counter weight.
I found an archive photo from a shoot last year using my c-stand, 40" extension arm, AB1600 and large softbox. Notice the arm goes directly ove the tallest leg and the grip handle is on the right side so the load will self-tighten. The second strobe has a dummy plug on the sync port and is used just for a (second) modeling lamp.
Not sure which Avenger boom you have but the D600 I own definitely has the swivel mount oriented so that if the arm drops it is "self-tightening" by default so to speak ie. the extension/baby-pin side is to the right of the tightening knuckle.
Yep. I have the same boom (Aventer D600). And the knuckle is NOT self-tightening. It is a compression knuckle. i.e. the more you tighten, them more it clamps down. But the mechanism it uses to clamp is just a metal bushing against a composite (rubber or poly) bushing. Whereas, the knuckles on most C-Stands are a different design.
To prove this, tighten your boom's knuckle down (while on a stand) and then pull the boom arm toward the ground. It will not self-tighten. Do the same to the extension arm on a C-Stand and after a few inches, the arm will lock and you won't be able to pull it down any farther.
I'm trying to find a close-up photo of the boom's knuckle. But there aren't any on the net. But basically, it's just two flat pieces of metal that sandwich together when you tighten them. There's not to lock.
For $139.00 the Matthews C-Stand Hollywood set is the best investment I have made. Yes they are heavy and cumbersome but they don't sway in the breeze like all the "cheaper" stands I have.
I'm at number 3. Great for flags, hair light and anything else you do not want to fall over.
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