We've all had the pleasure or displeasure of working with models. In my case this consists in mostly amateur aspiring models. The question then to ask is who should pay?
Where I am from models seem to be use to getting shoots for free, and when i say free I mean 100% free. Whether they have experience, been published, have adequate wardrobe, and makeup... Unfortunately, for myself I also live in an area where there are a lot of creepy old men photographers who would do anything to get a young 19 year old female half (or completely) naked in front of their lens. These GWC photographers aren't trying to get published, make money, or become better photographers. In most cases their images are over edited (super smooth skin) or under edited... The sole purpose of their voyage is procure in "procuring" (pun intended) young, and defenseless female aspiring models.
To my understanding, the way fashion photography for models should go is as follows. People who want to become models but have no experience contact a photographer with regards to having a shoot. The photographer, then draws upon the powers of the universe to obtain inspiration as to what kind of shoot to perform on the aspiring model. These powers then come back, and tell the photographer that since this person obviously doesn't have a portfolio built, he should do a standard all angle headshot session at a modest, but stern price. The photographer, lets call him "Mr. Photographer" then goes back to his customers, and tells them the type of shoot, price and time the shoot will take. This should be standard operating procedure, the same way a beginning photographer doesn't just march into Canon, and demand sponsorship. In this industry an investment must be made in order to obtain success! Models can not expect to have no experience, no clothing, no makeup, and not pay a dime for photographic work. Just as the beginning photographer must build up his work, buy equipment, learn by shadowing a better known photographer, and practice on friends and family. This of course, until he builds up the funds to pay a model, or finds a model willing to risk shooting with him TF.
Unfortunately, young unexperienced models who shoot with old horney men get the wrong perspective on how the industry works from day one. Thus, bringing everything to a halt, and creating super diva models who expect the photographer... who let me remind you has most likely already spent thousands of dollars in equipment, to also invest 100% in the shoot (which most likely is just a model portfolio shoot). These models usually have no wardrobe, makeup, or poses in their bag.
When it comes to working TF (time for...), the model should be established, semi well known, she should know some basic poses "correctly". The model should know how to combine clothing and makeup. If the model, or photographer cannot find a MUA that will work TF they should divide the costs equally. The models should be expected to arrive on time, and ready for action, she shouldn't be super tense or stressed, and most definitely shouldn't reflect those emotions in the end photographic work. The model should understand that the reason you are working TF with her is because she has invested enough time, energy, and money to deserve a professional photographer's attention, and vice versa. The TF work doesn't necessarily have to consist in portfolio work, it can be a themed shoot, or even an assignments for publication (even though you might want to get a paid crew for that).
Last, paying models... models should expect pay when a they are well known, established, schooled, professional models. Many girls think that being considered a model consists in sitting around, and looking pretty. Let me assure you, that isn't the case! You can be as pretty as the swan muse and have the grace of a goose at best. Modeling consists of more than just being beautiful. In fact, you don't being beautiful isn't necessarily a requirement at all. What you need to be is, professional, graceful, confident, and elegant. Models that pull off the mentioned are the successful models. Those girls who try to obtain everything on the down low rarely become well established models. Their lack of gracefulness, and elegance is noticeable from miles away, and that will only take them to the depths of indirect photographic prostitution, and pornographic work at best (harsh honest words).
The paid model is expected to know her stuff, look natural, and handle business professionally. Working with a professionally model should be a pleasant experience, and the work obtained from the shoot should be usable for a number of purposes. I myself am yet to have a shoot with one but I am expecting to soon.
In conclusion, I really hope that this small article helps photographers with what to expect, and how to handle models. I was inspired to write this article because of the situations I have found myself in lately with regards to hordes of inexperienced models contacting me, wanting to shoot TF, or for pay. These individuals who lack the skill needed to even call themselves models, and who have portfolios that consist of four, and five low quality pictures. Guys, I would love to hear back from other photographers with regards to how they handle working with models so feel free to comment below. Thank you.
Loki Studio wrote: Why would anybody read all of that?
I read 500 page books, that doesn't phase me based on length. But, it appears to all be one paragraph. And it seems to be a simple question with way too much rambling.
higgsboson wrote: We've all had the pleasure or displeasure of working with models. In my case this consists in mostly amateur aspiring models. The question then to ask is who should pay?
Where I am from models seem to be use to getting shoots for free, and when i say free I mean 100% free. Whether they have experience, been published, have adequate wardrobe, and makeup... Unfortunately, for myself I also live in an area where there are a lot of creepy old men photographers who would do anything to get a young 19 year old female half (or completely) naked in front of their lens. These GWC photographers aren't trying to get published, make money, or become better photographers. In most cases their images are over edited (super smooth skin) or under edited... The sole purpose of their voyage is procure in "procuring" (pun intended) young, and defenseless female aspiring models.
To my understanding, the way fashion photography for models should go is as follows. People who want to become models but have no experience contact a photographer with regards to having a shoot. The photographer, then draws upon the powers of the universe to obtain inspiration as to what kind of shoot to perform on the aspiring model. These powers then come back, and tell the photographer that since this person obviously doesn't have a portfolio built, he should do a standard all angle headshot session at a modest, but stern price. The photographer, lets call him "Mr. Photographer" then goes back to his customers, and tells them the type of shoot, price and time the shoot will take. This should be standard operating procedure, the same way a beginning photographer doesn't just march into Canon, and demand sponsorship. In this industry an investment must be made in order to obtain success! Models can not expect to have no experience, no clothing, no makeup, and not pay a dime for photographic work. Just as the beginning photographer must build up his work, buy equipment, learn by shadowing a better known photographer, and practice on friends and family. This of course, until he builds up the funds to pay a model, or finds a model willing to risk shooting with him TF.
Unfortunately, young unexperienced models who shoot with old horney men get the wrong perspective on how the industry works from day one. Thus, bringing everything to a halt, and creating super diva models who expect the photographer... who let me remind you has most likely already spent thousands of dollars in equipment, to also invest 100% in the shoot (which most likely is just a model portfolio shoot). These models usually have no wardrobe, makeup, or poses in their bag.
When it comes to working TF (time for...), the model should be established, semi well known, she should know some basic poses "correctly". The model should know how to combine clothing and makeup. If the model, or photographer cannot find a MUA that will work TF they should divide the costs equally. The models should be expected to arrive on time, and ready for action, she shouldn't be super tense or stressed, and most definitely shouldn't reflect those emotions in the end photographic work. The model should understand that the reason you are working TF with her is because she has invested enough time, energy, and money to deserve a professional photographer's attention, and vice versa. The TF work doesn't necessarily have to consist in portfolio work, it can be a themed shoot, or even an assignments for publication (even though you might want to get a paid crew for that).
Last, paying models... models should expect pay when a they are well known, established, schooled, professional models. Many girls think that being considered a model consists in sitting around, and looking pretty. Let me assure you, that isn't the case! You can be as pretty as the swan muse and have the grace of a goose at best. Modeling consists of more than just being beautiful. In fact, you don't being beautiful isn't necessarily a requirement at all. What you need to be is, professional, graceful, confident, and elegant. Models that pull off the mentioned are the successful models. Those girls who try to obtain everything on the down low rarely become well established models. Their lack of gracefulness, and elegance is noticeable from miles away, and that will only take them to the depths of indirect photographic prostitution, and pornographic work at best (harsh honest words).
The paid model is expected to know her stuff, look natural, and handle business professionally. Working with a professionally model should be a pleasant experience, and the work obtained from the shoot should be usable for a number of purposes. I myself am yet to have a shoot with one but I am expecting to soon.
In conclusion, I really hope that this small article helps photographers with what to expect, and how to handle models. I was inspired to write this article because of the situations I have found myself in lately with regards to hordes of inexperienced models contacting me, wanting to shoot TF, or for pay. These individuals who lack the skill needed to even call themselves models, and who have portfolios that consist of four, and five low quality pictures. Guys, I would love to hear back from other photographers with regards to how they handle working with models so feel free to comment below. Thank you.
I'm 51 and highly published, i've shot hundreds of girls of every age...lots of them nude...
with exception of one or two, most are of the impression that the creepiest photographers, are the younger ones....most specifically, the younger ones that bring up the creepy old photographers....then try try to save them (white knight syndrom)
so this was a bad strategic move for ya buddy...
and i only read the first few lines, im guessing you dig you self deeper as you go along...
You need to take a step back and summarize this. Most MMers will only read something like this if they're paid or if there is some type of raffle with a nice prize.
I only read about half of that but...
I've only paid two photographers in my life. The first photographer, I regret paying, because the shoot turned out to be as you described; a basic crappy studio-style headshot shoot with lame props that did nothing for me that I couldn't have done myself with a friend and a point-and-shoot. The second paid shoot was ok.
The best work I've done was with a photographer for TF, and I will only do TF if I think the resulting images will benefit me.
So... your opinion is flawed, I think. If a model has the right look and the desire to practice posing and emoting, she can easily never pay a photographer while building her port... Same with photographers...
It seems to me that you are just sad because no one wants to pay you...
higgsboson wrote: We've all had the pleasure or displeasure of working with models. In my case this consists in mostly amateur aspiring models. The question then to ask is who should pay?
Where I am from models seem to be use to getting shoots for free, and when i say free I mean 100% free. Whether they have experience, been published, have adequate wardrobe, and makeup... Unfortunately, for myself I also live in an area where there are a lot of creepy old men photographers who would do anything to get a young 19 year old female half (or completely) naked in front of their lens. These GWC photographers aren't trying to get published, make money, or become better photographers. In most cases their images are over edited (super smooth skin) or under edited... The sole purpose of their voyage is procure in "procuring" (pun intended) young, and defenseless female aspiring models.
To my understanding, the way fashion photography for models should go is as follows. People who want to become models but have no experience contact a photographer with regards to having a shoot. The photographer, then draws upon the powers of the universe to obtain inspiration as to what kind of shoot to perform on the aspiring model. These powers then come back, and tell the photographer that since this person obviously doesn't have a portfolio built, he should do a standard all angle headshot session at a modest, but stern price. The photographer, lets call him "Mr. Photographer" then goes back to his customers, and tells them the type of shoot, price and time the shoot will take. This should be standard operating procedure, the same way a beginning photographer doesn't just march into Canon, and demand sponsorship. In this industry an investment must be made in order to obtain success! Models can not expect to have no experience, no clothing, no makeup, and not pay a dime for photographic work. Just as the beginning photographer must build up his work, buy equipment, learn by shadowing a better known photographer, and practice on friends and family. This of course, until he builds up the funds to pay a model, or finds a model willing to risk shooting with him TF.
Unfortunately, young unexperienced models who shoot with old horney men get the wrong perspective on how the industry works from day one. Thus, bringing everything to a halt, and creating super diva models who expect the photographer... who let me remind you has most likely already spent thousands of dollars in equipment, to also invest 100% in the shoot (which most likely is just a model portfolio shoot). These models usually have no wardrobe, makeup, or poses in their bag.
When it comes to working TF (time for...), the model should be established, semi well known, she should know some basic poses "correctly". The model should know how to combine clothing and makeup. If the model, or photographer cannot find a MUA that will work TF they should divide the costs equally. The models should be expected to arrive on time, and ready for action, she shouldn't be super tense or stressed, and most definitely shouldn't reflect those emotions in the end photographic work. The model should understand that the reason you are working TF with her is because she has invested enough time, energy, and money to deserve a professional photographer's attention, and vice versa. The TF work doesn't necessarily have to consist in portfolio work, it can be a themed shoot, or even an assignments for publication (even though you might want to get a paid crew for that).
Last, paying models... models should expect pay when a they are well known, established, schooled, professional models. Many girls think that being considered a model consists in sitting around, and looking pretty. Let me assure you, that isn't the case! You can be as pretty as the swan muse and have the grace of a goose at best. Modeling consists of more than just being beautiful. In fact, you don't being beautiful isn't necessarily a requirement at all. What you need to be is, professional, graceful, confident, and elegant. Models that pull off the mentioned are the successful models. Those girls who try to obtain everything on the down low rarely become well established models. Their lack of gracefulness, and elegance is noticeable from miles away, and that will only take them to the depths of indirect photographic prostitution, and pornographic work at best (harsh honest words).
The paid model is expected to know her stuff, look natural, and handle business professionally. Working with a professionally model should be a pleasant experience, and the work obtained from the shoot should be usable for a number of purposes. I myself am yet to have a shoot with one but I am expecting to soon.
In conclusion, I really hope that this small article helps photographers with what to expect, and how to handle models. I was inspired to write this article because of the situations I have found myself in lately with regards to hordes of inexperienced models contacting me, wanting to shoot TF, or for pay. These individuals who lack the skill needed to even call themselves models, and who have portfolios that consist of four, and five low quality pictures. Guys, I would love to hear back from other photographers with regards to how they handle working with models so feel free to comment below. Thank you.
and now we turn to our "culture correspondent" Stefon...
Seth, the hottest thread in town is this one... this thread has it all...
completely unreadable...
rants about models...
rants about GWC's...
a whole lot of white knighting...
a wall of expired lunchables...
bartending monkeys...
and even a human suitcase...
Karl Johnston
Posts: 7,242
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
higgsboson wrote: We've all had the pleasure or displeasure of working with models. In my case this consists in mostly amateur aspiring models. The question then to ask is who should pay?
photographer... who let me remind you has most likely already spent thousands of dollars in equipment, Modeling consists of more than just being beautiful.
I was inspired to write this article because of the situations I have found myself in lately with regards to hordes of inexperienced models contacting me, wanting to shoot TF, or for pay. These individuals who lack the skill needed to even call themselves models, and who have portfolios that consist of four, and five low quality pictures. Guys, I would love to hear back from other photographers with regards to how they handle working with models so feel free to comment below. Thank you.
Generally how it works is:
You contact them - you pay/negotiate with them. They contact you - they pay/negotiate with you.
Learn to communicate more efficiently - reading this was hard, you often trail off your main point, there is next to no cohesion in the topic, get your point across fast or you'll be tuned out. This is hard to read so I'm addressing the major points.
Yeah, models are more than beauty - they got skills. Photographers got skills too...But elegance? Grace? Those are ironic words to substitute: arguably they are equally as subjective as "beauty"..so it doesn't make much sense...this goes back to what I said in the previous paragraph.
however, consider this....there are many models .. that SERVE different niches..just as there are many photographers, who service the niches independently. Note the common theme: service. The photographer is more than equipment - the photographer is a SERVICE. In order to get clients you need to SERVE THEIR NEEDS. Arguably, we industry professionals on here are all in the SERVICE BUSINESS. Really think about why this industry exists: TO SERVE THE NEEDS OF THE CLIENT.
If you're not doing that, IMO, you are not in the industry.
So let's go back and look at your situation again from a new light: inexperienced models are coming to you in abundance. Turn them into clients by offering YOUR SERVICES. You're in a positive situation, not a negative one! Turn them into clients.
Now go out and apply that knowledge I took the time to write to you, and read through that. It's probably the most useful post you'll get out of this thread.
Welcome to the industry. Or one facet of it, anyway.
Too long of an article. It should be limited to one paragraph. From what I read. I had all kind of experiences with models. I agree that some don't have lack the skills. I had some that shot with me because I shot a friend of theirs and they confirmed that I wasn't a creepy guy. I had some that keep contacting me for trade and goes nowhere. Unfortunately, there is a mix of good and bad on both sides. I wish I had a crystal ball or a rating system I can look at but thats the nature of the beast. I don't make money here and I don't expect to which most are college kids that don't have a dime. This is an outlet for creativity for me. The money is in weddings, seniors, couples etc.
Happy Guy Photos wrote: You need to take a step back and summarize this. Most MMers will only read something like this if they're paid or if there is some type of raffle with a nice prize.
and now we turn to our "culture correspondent" Stefon...
Seth, the hottest thread in town is this one... this thread has it all...
completely unreadable...
rants about models...
rants about GWC's...
a whole lot of white knighting...
a wall of expired lunchables...
bartending monkeys...
and even a human suitcase...
OP had another Thread, that was Locked because of a Rogue Model...he outed the model. I guess OP is still in a massive Tizzy about this. There be other fish in da sea of modeling..move on please.
OP... this little "article" (as you call it) is so full of fail. Your lack of understanding, wild assumptions and misguided opinions dictate that this hot mess be moved to Soapbox (just my opinion, of course.) There is absolutely nothing relevant or contemporary to industry standards. I find it somewhat ironic that your business handle is as hypothetical as this post.
Take a step back, put some experience under your belt and try again.
You write like Newt Gingrich talks--too much verbiage, and waaaaay too much self-regard.
If you know how to use a camera, you must certainly know how to use your keypad to create paragraphs. Organizing sentences into coherent paragraphs is one of the basic tools a writer uses in order to be understood. Otherwise, trying to read your post is like trying to listen to the windbag at the corner bar.
and now we turn to our "culture correspondent" Stefon...
Seth, the hottest thread in town is this one... this thread has it all...
completely unreadable...
rants about models...
rants about GWC's...
a whole lot of white knighting...
a wall of expired lunchables...
bartending monkeys...
and even a human suitcase...
the password is - whaaaaaaaat ?
I feel that I have been around long enough to say that you have officially made the greatest post on MM ever.
and now we turn to our "culture correspondent" Stefon...
Seth, the hottest thread in town is this one... this thread has it all...
completely unreadable...
rants about models...
rants about GWC's...
a whole lot of white knighting...
a wall of expired lunchables...
bartending monkeys...
and even a human suitcase...
the password is - whaaaaaaaat ?
You've gotten frighteningnly good with these things.
Laura UnBound
Posts: 24,702
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I only got through the first couple sentences but luckily you posed your question early on.
Who should pay?
the party who can't deliver up to par with what the other party can.
If your book sucks worse than the model you want to work with, you pay her. If her port sucks worse than yours does and she needs your work, she pays you. If nobody wants to pay anybody, then nobody pays. If someone just wants to throw some money at you regardless, then they pay.
Michael Scot
Posts: 860
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, US
The few parts I skimmed lead me to offer that many models, and photographers around here don't seem to be able to distinguish commercial from retail photography, and how those differences change the respective roles of each party. That's all that really needs to be said about your situation.
Harry Young
Posts: 742
Los Angeles, California, US
like most of you, I had trouble getting past the first few sentences! Tried to read on; failed. Not sure -what- his intention was/is ... but he is definitely NOT starting out well ... "who pays? who is new; who has experience? etc?"
note: anyone take a good look at his MM name? higgsboson ... in high-end particle physics that is the name for a "theoretical particle" ... which may not even actually exist!
ok: I know this last is maybe off-topic .... but really, I cannot figure out just what his trying to say!! so ... my little note should be ok??
-I doubt most models (or most of us) will know or care how much you've spent on gear. You're always judged by what you make with it (we all are).
-Yeah, it's harder working with an inexperienced model some days. But, especially if you expect to get paid by newbies, you have to learn to deal with that. I recently had someone talk to me about working with inexperienced/"stiff" models/ones that don't take direction well as a learning experience that might be good for me. It teaches me to do better and be clearer.
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 531
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
You are so incorrect.... I haven't paid for one photoshoot. Why should I have to if i'm not semi-well known and inexperienced. Doesn't mean I won't produce a nice image the photographer can use to show clients.
wiseleo
Posts: 1,681
Castro Valley, California, US
One point you made is about model poses and model's grace.
As far as I am concerned, I am there to direct the model into a pose that I see in my mind and to optionally listen to her suggestions. She is a voice-activated mannequin. That includes facial expressions. Emotions trigger expressions. Emotions can be evoked.
If she has the look, can follow clear directives, and shows up, I really couldn't care less about anything else.
Grace would matter in videos, but in stills you can eventually achieve the exact pose. Does it help when the model can move fluidly between poses? Yes. That's a time-saving skill. However, it's not a critical skill if I see very specific shots in my mind. Should a model know basic wardrobe styling and how to create a clean beauty look for herself? It's a useful skill, but that's what the rest of the team is for.
With regards to paying for the team - the owner of the concept is paying the bill. If it's a hobby shoot and I just want to create a great image, then perhaps it's worth it for me to spend on HMUA who can help me create that look. I can also convince a MUA on trade that this shoot would help her. MUAs desperately need marketing images because they often are paid even on trade shoots.
Is shooting stunningly hot naked female models for payment a viable business model for the vast majority of MM photographers? Not really. Too many photographers are happy to do it at no cost with "good enough" results, which is what you are experiencing.
When "good enough" is not enough, such as for models with look that is not as strong as the top 1% who want to sell their time to the rest of the market and need a "wow" portfolio, they may pay the top 1% photographers. Philip'e, Julian Wilde would be some examples.
Models can not expect to have no experience, no clothing, no makeup, and not pay a dime for photographic work.
Why not? If she has the look I want in my portfolio and doesn't want to trade with me and I still want to work with her; then I will have to pay her, provide the clothing and makeup, and let her gain some experience at my expense.
i think if girls above 18 want to pose nude in front of an amateur photographer,for better or worse, it's their business
this days it's seen as a Job for many girls who are into that,and there's nothing wrong..its just different than the style i or others might consider cool
i get the ''creeppy old straight guy'' who wants to see chicks..but that happens in all industries..
CLosing - most Pro Fashion Photographers aren't the tipical Hyspter young guy but mature guys and girls.
Laura UnBound wrote: I only got through the first couple sentences but luckily you posed your question early on.
Who should pay?
the party who can't deliver up to par with what the other party can.
If your book sucks worse than the model you want to work with, you pay her. If her port sucks worse than yours does and she needs your work, she pays you. If nobody wants to pay anybody, then nobody pays. If someone just wants to throw some money at you regardless, then they pay.
Yeah it's really a pretty pure form of negotiation when there's not a client involved. Whoever needs the other one more is the one who's likely to pay, if anyone does.
If newbie models can get paid why wouldn't they? If it's GWCs paying the bills then the model probably won't get anything for their book, but they can always book trade work for that.
I do see some models who think they should only do paid work when they're starting out and it usually shows in their book. I've been a little shocked once or twice when models who had pretty poor photography in their portfolios expected me to pay them, when I felt my work would have really helped them. But that's their decision. It's not hard to deal with, I just passed and found other people to work with.
higgsboson wrote: We've all had the pleasure or displeasure of working with models. In my case this consists in mostly amateur aspiring models. The question then to ask is who should pay?
Where I am from blah blah blah blah blah blah...
Wow! Thanks for the free advise, Richard Avedon! I'm sure we can all feast on this cornucopia of knowledge and improve our respective portfolios by our next shoot! You TOTALLY ROCK!!
No seriously...what the fuck were you saying??? I tried...I mean REALLY tried to get through the entire diatribe, but had to just skim it over in the end. If I understand you right, you're basically claiming to be holier than thou. Does that sound about right?
The person who pays is the person who wants to pay. If you want to work with me, and I want you to pay me, and that's acceptable to you, you pay me. If I want to work with you, and you want me to pay you, and that's acceptable to me, I pay you.
If I want to work with you, you want me to pay, and I only want you to work with me for free, then we don't shoot. No one gives a fuck how you feel it *should* work, what you think the girls *deserve*, how you think "horney" old men have ruined them, whatever your ego is telling you, if a girl doesn't want to pay you, you're not getting paid for photos.
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