Jessa The Austin Model wrote:

Why don't they want to be happy with who they are?? Because the advertising industry has brain washed society into believing that you have to look a certain way to be considered beautiful.

I'm talking about selling a product; clothes. If a customer can relate to the person in the photo selling the product, they are more likely to buy it. If they see an  image of an above average person who has a look that is unattainable for the average person viewing the ad, they can be discouraged from buying the clothes the model is wearing.

If people were happy with who they are they wouldn't venture onto MM.
It's all about dreams as is advertising.
Peoples hopes and aspirations are the same on MM as in advertising 'being happy'.

Jessa The Austin llama wrote:
It isn't that I am unaware of why the taller llamas get fashion gigs, it is that I think it's not fair and that there is a lot of room for change. I don't need the current closed minded " rules" explained to me, I question  why they should stay in place.

And I think it is not fair that some movie star earns way more money than a scientist but that is the world we live in. You wanna change that? Invent something better than capitalism.

A R M wrote:

And I think it is not fair that some movie star earns way more money than a scientist but that is the world we live in. You wanna change that? Invent something better than capitalism.

+1

It sucks, but unfortunately, that's the way things work.

I'm happy with the modeling I do. I knew from the start I'd never do fashion. Not a big deal.

Jessa The Austin Model wrote:

Again, your own insulting opinion.

Actually, this is not a matter of opinion. We have the measurables to analyze. These are yours:

Height:     5' 2"
Weight:     92 lbs
Bust:     30"
Waist:     22"
Hips:             31"
Cup:             A
Dress:     0
Shoe:     5.5
Hair color:     Black
Hair length:    Long
Eye color:     Green
Ethnicity:     Other
Skin color:     Olive


The average woman in the world is heavier, has larger breasts and butt, dark eyes and a different skin tone.

So yeah, you are perpetuating the industry standard. If you think you are not just because you are shorter then you are deluded.

Jessa The Austin Model wrote:
What advantage exactly? If the taller woman doesn't have the modeling skills that the shorter model has than her photos are not going to sell the clothes as well. Isn't that the entire point of putting fashion on models and photographing it for magazines, ect?

The fact is that the fashion industry has closed their doors to shorter models because of these inaccurate ideas that taller women are somehow better models.

Darwin has nothing to do with this. This isn't about evolution, it's about close minded individuals who could use some eye opening to the vast possibilities out there. Talent shouldn't be automatically determined with height as a first elimination. It feels like discrimination. I take just as good if not better fashion photos as those taller models and it's a bit unfair that I will never be agency represented because of these close minded standards.

This belies the reality of it.  The reality is no one cares about any of those things, really.  Girls 14 years old get signed and land six figure campaings with virtually no prior experience.  It's only here where people say to "work hard".  In the real world no one cares if she's experienced, if she's an addict, if she's a whore or a biochemistry major with a minor in astrophysics.  It's all about the look, the model is often times little more than a warm prop.  You either hit the genetic lottery or you don't.

Now, I do get what Eliza is saying, I dated a fit model for years, who went in every day to a variety of designers to have clothes made to her body.  She had the right body stats but, unfortunately, did didn't have "it" as far as the look goes.  She did a fair bit of lesser runway work and some small ads but, like most models, she wasn't going to break through.  It's not just the stats (which is all that seems to be talked about here), there is a look as well.  Go to all the major agency websites and look at the faces, really look at them.  There is a look, a vibe that goes along with the gazelle like body.  If you have it all, in the right combination, and you're the right age, you'll get signed.  If you don't, you won't.  It's not about fairness.  Nor is it about beauty (at least stereotypical notions of it).  You are, in my opinion, incredibly beautiful.  But, as you see, that doesn't really matter in this particular regard.

The fact that there are far less women like that simply makes them more valuable, which reinforces the trend.  Fashion marketing has almost nothing to do with the garments themselves, it's about an aspirational dream.

Paramour Productions wrote:

This belies the reality of it.  The reality is no one cares about any of those things, really.  Girls 14 years old get signed and land six figure campaings with virtually no prior experience.  It's only here where people say to "work hard".  In the real world no one cares if she's experienced, if she's an addict, if she's a whore or a biochemistry major with a minor in astrophysics.  It's all about the look, the model is often times little more than a warm prop.  You either hit the genetic lottery or you don't.

Now, I do get what Eliza is saying, I dated a fit model for years, who went in every day to a variety of designers to have clothes made to her body.  She had the right body stats but, unfortunately, did didn't have "it" as far as the look goes.  She did a fair bit of lesser runway work and some small ads but, like most models, she wasn't going to break through.  It's not just the stats (which is all that seems to be talked about here), there is a look as well.  Go to all the major agency websites and look at the faces, really look at them.  There is a look, a vibe that goes along with the gazelle like body.  If you have it all, in the right combination, and you're the right age, you'll get signed.  If you don't, you won't.  It's not about fairness.  Nor is it about beauty (at least stereotypical notions of it).  You are, in my opinion, incredibly beautiful.  But, as you see, that doesn't really matter in this particular regard.

The fact that there are far less women like that simply makes them more valuable, which reinforces the trend.  Fashion marketing has almost nothing to do with the garments themselves, it's about an aspirational dream.

+1

Jessa The Austin Model wrote:
Why is it so impossible to consider that there are great models that could be the exception to the rule?

Of course a 5'2 and 5'8 model would look different next to each other, but that's because they are! So are the average people in the world. Walk down the streets of NYC and you will see thousands of different body types.  If a client  wants to produce a specific photo advertising clothes and wants 2 models that are similar in body type, then all they have to do is hire 2 models that are similar body type. That doesn't mean they have to be 5'8. Why not hire two 5'2 models?? Anyone should be able to model if they are good at it and they can sell  the clothes with their modeling skills. Why do designers only make samples in specific sizes? Because the models they are hiring come from agencies that only have models in specific sizes because of these close minded standards. It's not because they can't make garments in different sizes. That isn't set in stone, it just takes less fabric to make a garment in my size. So alter the clothes, what's the big deal? Designers do it ALL of the time before runway shows so the clothes look perfect on their models, even if their models are already agency standard height.


Things can change, and maybe they should. It's ultimately all a matter of what the public wants in the end because that's who is buying the clothes and keeping the whole cycle a float. How did plus modeling get it's start? Because the average woman in America is not a model body type. The average human female in the entire world is not young, white, skinny and 5'8 or over. Get it?

Jessa, fashion is about fantasy.   Have you ever been to NY Fashion Week?   A short model on a runway would be hard to see from yards away.   Designers only make a few sample sizes and only have minutes to show those styles to buyers.   Lets go further.   Playboy magazine didn't make millions by showcasing average middle aged housewives.   You are correct in that most of the worlds women are not White, thin and 5'8" or taller but its what the fashion world wants.

You are correct things could change but frankly they probably won't but hey you can lead the charge.   Start the revolution!   However until you do and win, the fashion and commercial industry will stay the same.  Web based models doing smaller jobs, nudes and glamor and agency signed models working with Target and Kohl's or JC Penny or fashion magazines and or lifestyle catalog and commercial.   Look, you don't have to convince me you are a great model.   That article wasn't bashing Jessa personally.   Key is this.   If you are making a living from modeling who cares what Tony or some goofy on-line magazine says.   

If you are paying your rent, filling your cars gas tank and eating with modeling then that article doesn't represent your reality.   Web models who are making real money shouldn't be offended by something that isn't about them and its notable that NONE of the better known traveling nude models have posted that I have seen.   If that article isn't your reality then it shouldn't offend you.

Jessa The Austin Model wrote:
What advantage exactly? If the taller woman doesn't have the modeling skills that the shorter model has than her photos are not going to sell the clothes as well. Isn't that the entire point of putting fashion on models and photographing it for magazines, ect?

The fact is that the fashion industry has closed their doors to shorter models because of these inaccurate ideas that taller women are somehow better models.

Darwin has nothing to do with this. This isn't about evolution, it's about close minded individuals who could use some eye opening to the vast possibilities out there. Talent shouldn't be automatically determined with height as a first elimination. It feels like discrimination. I take just as good if not better fashion photos as those taller models and it's a bit unfair that I will never be agency represented because of these close minded standards.

Hi Jessa;

We are dealing with this for a very long time now.

The situation is this... are there a few really exceptional short models with the looks etc., creating great photos? Absolutely, and you are one of them!!!

However, the thing is that what many, many models forget that the fashion industry is not about catering to the aspirations (or feelings) of shorter gals, it's not about the model at all... it's about the clothes and nothing else.

I have written several articles many years ago... they are not updated and the threads are burried for a long time (yet on my profile)... but... here are the links and keep some humor when you are reading them and they answer only a few questions and I don't claim that the explanations are complete.

ADVENTURE: NY Fashion Week

Modeling Success: RESEARCH

Why runway shows need tall models:

Short "High Fashion Runway" Models = "Haubbits"


Hope that those links help a little.

Paramour Productions wrote:
This belies the reality of it.  The reality is no one cares about any of those things, really.  Girls 14 years old get signed and land six figure campaings with virtually no prior experience.  It's only here where people say to "work hard".  In the real world no one cares if she's experienced, if she's an addict, if she's a whore or a biochemistry major with a minor in astrophysics.  It's all about the look, the model is often times little more than a warm prop.  You either hit the genetic lottery or you don't.

Now, I do get what Eliza is saying, I dated a fit model for years, who went in every day to a variety of designers to have clothes made to her body.  She had the right body stats but, unfortunately, did didn't have "it" as far as the look goes.  She did a fair bit of lesser runway work and some small ads but, like most models, she wasn't going to break through.  It's not just the stats (which is all that seems to be talked about here), there is a look as well.  Go to all the major agency websites and look at the faces, really look at them.  There is a look, a vibe that goes along with the gazelle like body.  If you have it all, in the right combination, and you're the right age, you'll get signed.  If you don't, you won't.  It's not about fairness.  Nor is it about beauty (at least stereotypical notions of it).  You are, in my opinion, incredibly beautiful.  But, as you see, that doesn't really matter in this particular regard.

The fact that there are far less women like that simply makes them more valuable, which reinforces the trend.  Fashion marketing has almost nothing to do with the garments themselves, it's about an aspirational dream.

Eliza is in Greenland. She hasn't got time to address some of the bullshit going down on here so has asked me to do it.
I haven't got time either; so I shall address this having read through it as quickly as I can.

First of all; I do a bit of fashion design.
Yep; I actually design make stuff and sell it; to what some may see as high society ladies. The stuff is expensive; I pay £40 for a metre of tweed and some of my designs have 5 metres. I am one of tens of thousands of small designers just in the UK.
I am also Eliza's partner.
She modelled for me for 18 months then we started going out. So I lived in London with her for a while. So I have met a lot of her colleagues in modelling.
I have also used 7 models from Model Mayhem without problems prior to and since meeting her; and one photographer. Most of the time I couldn't afford a photographer; so mine had to do. I have used one Agency model before I knew about MM and got charged a fortune; she did sweet f.a; and the clothes I designed looked shit on her.
Fashion needs all shapes and sizes. My designs need women with shape. I can't make clothes for androgynous boy shaped 14 year old women in order to sell perfume because I haven't got perfume. I have to sell them actual clothing to real women; and thefore as any designer who is actually marketing clothing has to design on real bodies.

Through Eliza I have seen a bit of the world some of you people live in. Fashion marketing is a dream yes. But the fashion industry itself isn't. Most of Eliza's colleagues are as she describes. They don't want to 'be' big shots. They are happy doing stuff like fitting and modelling for designers like me at small fashion events, trade and retail fairs and events; and fashion students too.  But they also work in the design houses many of them. And I have met some of the big designers personally through her too. Can't say I have met to my knowledge a big shot photographer or any of those people involved in the campaign and marketing side because that is a different world; though one a lot of you guys are involved with or have aspirations to.
But the models don't. I probably have met maybe 50 models through Eliza and a dozen through my own work. Some are what you'd call alt models though I detest the word; some are fit models and some even do the odd bit of campaign stuff. And they do the small magazine and bridal catalogue stuff and that kind of thing. Nearly all of them  make a living from modelling; though may also do promotional and even life modelling. They are all shapes and sizes. I have also been to fashion shows with Eliza where she has modelled for other small designers. And again you may get the odd Agency model but usually it is the kind of model you find here; alongside maybe a couple of their best clients daughters and stuff.

But Eliza and the other girls have told you all this as far as I can see so I don't know why she wants me to add to it; except I suppose you get a small designer's perspective who is also an artist; so uses models a lot in one guise or another.

I am pretty sure the fit models at places like Agent Provocateur where Eliza worked for a couple for a couple of years are not Agency models. They certainly aren't 14 years old and plucked from obscurity to be supermodels. That is dream stuff; and that is probably how it works at that level. But that is about campaign and editorial fashion photography. For the most part that isn't what most professional models do or expect to do. They do a bit of it on times. One model I used who is on Model Mayhem did a massive campaign but I think that is only one of about 4 she has done in her career. She makes her main living picking up promo modelling jobs here; even saw her promoting mobile phones. She is also Agency signed but they don't get her much but she works every day.

I think you will find most designers aren't dreamers either. We just like making stuff and eek a living from it. Eliza has been involved modelling on the fringes of London fashion week as have her colleagues. But this is two events of the year; where yes it will mostly be agency girls. It also only has the elite tip of a very huge rag trade designer wise. But for the other 50 weeks of the year when we are showing at little hotel fashion shows and society events and making the stuff with the seamstress on a daily basis or regional magazines want to profile our stuff or you do a little advert do you think we are going to use Agency models? Dream on.

I feel sorry for the girl you dated that you thought her hard work on a daily basis meant she wasn't successful because she didn't have 'it'. 'It' isn't what most modelling is about.

I have at Eliza's request looked at the ports of models in this thread and I'd be pleased to use almost any of them; and be honoured if they lowered themselves to actually doing a bit for the likes of me. I couldn't believe it when I got Eliza or other models here. The contempt in which they have been treated by the article in question and some of you high and mighty photographers sucks to be frank. But what do I know I am just a small fashion designer and artist who uses models day in day out and only ever been able to afford one agency one who was a waste of space.

Now I know that some of you are involved in that whole NYC fashion scene good on yer; although it hasn't gone unoticed that none of you have id'd the designer she is with in the pic she posted; which makes me wonder.

But this isn't the NYC state of mind. This is the real world. Newport state of mind. LMAO at yer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx8CZyFM4b4

PonyGurlCouture wrote:

Eliza is in Greenland. She hasn't got time to address some of the bullshit going down on here so has asked me to do it.
I haven't got time either; so I shall address this having read through it as quickly as I can.

First of all; I do a bit of fashion design.
Yep; I actually design make stuff and sell it; to what some may see as high society ladies. The stuff is expensive; I pay £40 for a metre of tweed and some of my designs have 5 metres. I am one of tens of thousands of small designers just in the UK.
I am also Eliza's partner.
She modelled for me for 18 months then we started going out. So I lived in London with her for a while. So I have met a lot of her colleagues in modelling.
I have also used 7 models from Model Mayhem without problems prior to and since meeting her; and one photographer. Most of the time I couldn't afford a photographer; so mine had to do. I have used one Agency model before I knew about MM and got charged a fortune; she did sweet f.a; and the clothes I designed looked shit on her.
Fashion needs all shapes and sizes. My designs need women with shape. I can't make clothes for androgenous boy shaped 14 year old women in order to sell perfume because I haven't got perfume. I have to sell them actual clothing to real women; and thefore as any designer who is actually marketing clothing has to design on real bodies.

Through Eliza I have seen a bit of the world some of you people live in. Fashion marketing is a dream yes. But the fashion industry itself isn't. Most of Eliza's colleagues are as she describes. They don't want to 'be' big shots. They are happy doing stuff like fitting and modelling for designers like me at small fashion events, trade and retail fairs and events; and fashion students too.  But they also work in the design houses many of them. And I have met some of the big designers personally through her too. Can't say I have met to my knowledge a big shot photographer or any of those people involved in the campaign and marketing side because that is a different world; though one a lot of you guys are involved with or have aspirations to.
But the models don't. I probably have met maybe 50 models through Eliza and a dozen through my own work. Some are what you'd call alt models though I detest the word; some are fit models and some even do the odd bit of campaign stuff. And they do the small magazine and bridal catalogue stuff and that kind of thing. Nearly all of them  make a living from modelling; though may also do promotional and even life modelling. They are all shapes and sizes. I have also been to fashion shows with Eliza where she has modelled for other small designers. And again you may get the odd Agency model but usually it is the kind of model you find here; alongside maybe a couple of their best clients daughters and stuff.

But Eliza and the other girls have told you all this as far as I can see so I don't know why she wants me to add to it; except I suppose you get a small designer's perspective who is also an artist; so uses models a lot in one guise or another.

I am pretty sure the fit models at places like Agent Provocateur where Eliza worked for a couple for a couple of years are not Agency models. They certainly aren't 14 years old and plucked from obscurity to be supermodels. That is dream stuff; and that is probably how it works at that level. But that is about campaign and editorial fashion photography. For the most part that isn't what most professional models do or expect to do. They do a bit of it on times. One model I used who is on Model Mayhem did a massive campaign but I think that is only one of about 4 she has done in her career. She makes her main living picking up promo modelling jobs here; even saw her promoting mobile phones. She is also Agency signed but they don't get her much but she works every day.

I think you will find most designers aren't dreamers either. We just like making stuff and eek a living from it. Eliza has been involved modelling on the fringes of London fashion week as have her colleagues. But this is two events of the year; where yes it will mostly be agency girls. It also only has the elite tip of a very huge rag trade designer wise. But for the other 50 weeks of the year when we are showing at little hotel fashion shows and society events and making the stuff with the seamstress on a daily basis or regional magazines want to profile our stuff or you do a little advert do you think we are going to use Agency models? Dream on.

I feel sorry for the girl you dated that you thought her hard work on a daily basis meant she wasn't successful because she didn't have 'it'. 'It' isn't what most modelling is about.

I have at Eliza's request looked at the ports of models in this thread and I'd be pleased to use almost any of them; and be honoured if they lowered themselves to actually doing a bit for the likes of me. The contempt in which they have been treated by the article in question and some of you high and mighty photographers sucks to be frank. But what do I know I am just a small fashion designer and artist who uses models day in day out and only ever been able to afford one agency one who was a waste of space.

I agree with what you and Eliza are saying.  You are talking about everyday working models not top fashion models.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I agree with what you and Eliza are saying.  You are talking about everyday working models not top fashion models.

That's right mate. But that doesn't mean that the hundreds of pro models who do the day to day work in fashion (and are here) to every supermodel are like the article makes out. Spot on.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Jessa, fashion is about fantasy.   Have you ever been to NY Fashion Week?   A short model on a runway would be hard to see from yards away.   Designers only make a few sample sizes and only have minutes to show those styles to buyers.   Lets go further.   Playboy magazine didn't make millions by showcasing average middle aged housewives.   You are correct in that most of the worlds women are not White, thin and 5'8" or taller but its what the fashion world wants.

You are correct things could change but frankly they probably won't but hey you can lead the charge.   Start the revolution!   However until you do and win, the fashion and commercial industry will stay the same.  Web based models doing smaller jobs, nudes and glamor and agency signed models working with Target and Kohl's or JC Penny or fashion magazines and or lifestyle catalog and commercial.   Look, you don't have to convince me you are a great model.   That article wasn't bashing Jessa personally.   Key is this.   If you are making a living from modeling who cares what Tony or some goofy on-line magazine says.   

If you are paying your rent, filling your cars gas tank and eating with modeling then that article doesn't represent your reality.   Web models who are making real money shouldn't be offended by something that isn't about them and its notable that NONE of the better known traveling nude models have posted that I have seen.   If that article isn't your reality then it shouldn't offend you.

They are busy traveling, working and making money not wasting their time in this forum.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Jessa, fashion is about fantasy.   Have you ever been to NY Fashion Week?   A short model on a runway would be hard to see from yards away.   Designers only make a few sample sizes and only have minutes to show those styles to buyers.   Lets go further.   Playboy magazine didn't make millions by showcasing average middle aged housewives.   You are correct in that most of the worlds women are not White, thin and 5'8" or taller but its what the fashion world wants.

You are correct things could change but frankly they probably won't but hey you can lead the charge.   Start the revolution!   However until you do and win, the fashion and commercial industry will stay the same.  Web based models doing smaller jobs, nudes and glamor and agency signed models working with Target and Kohl's or JC Penny or fashion magazines and or lifestyle catalog and commercial.   Look, you don't have to convince me you are a great model.   That article wasn't bashing Jessa personally.   Key is this.   If you are making a living from modeling who cares what Tony or some goofy on-line magazine says.   

If you are paying your rent, filling your cars gas tank and eating with modeling then that article doesn't represent your reality.   Web models who are making real money shouldn't be offended by something that isn't about them and its notable that NONE of the better known traveling nude models have posted that I have seen.   If that article isn't your reality then it shouldn't offend you.

I'd like to see what you'd think if your profile was on that article.
I know Eliza was like 'that could have been my port'; instead of Jessa's; so felt very strongly about this.
There are some shit photographers here too mate but if the article used your port  to represent that you'd be pissed off right?
Fashion and commercial photographers looking down their nose at the models here should just piss off to the agencies then and stop trying to poach girls here to work for free by running them down. God there are some fucking egos here.

Fashion is about fantasy when it's selling perfume. Some of us actually make and sell quality clothes to real women; for which we need real models all the way; from fit to show to little ad in a magazine.

And don't patronise Jessa. I just can't believe you can look at that article and say it wasn't about models like Jessa when it had her picture at the top.

I HAVE been to London fashion week with Eliza. And interestingly enough Eliza did runway for Agent Provocateur (not that I went to that show) - I guess they thought she'd look as good in the clothes being their fit model as the Agency girls. So what you say about samples has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I am not disputing that the industry uses top models for their showcase events and editorials etc - course they do. But that is a tiny part of the rag trade mate.

Better know nude models? I don't know about the USA but who here is a better known nude model than Eliza? Know what the Royal Academy is do you mate?

BTW the fashion houses all make a pretty hefty loss without the smellies. The vast majority of us in fashion don't have that luxury.

That article was written by someone who knows sod all about modelling and even less about fashion and think it is all Vogue magazine. As do some of you.

udor wrote:
Hi Jessa;

We are dealing with this for a very long time now.

The situation is this... are there a few really exceptional short llamas with the looks etc., creating great photos? Absolutely, and you are one of them!!!

However, the thing is that what many, many llamas forget that the fashion industry is not about catering to the aspirations (or feelings) of shorter gals, it's not about the llama at all... it's about the clothes and nothing else.

I have written several articles many years ago... they are not updated and the threads are burried for a long time (yet on my profile)... but... here are the links and keep some humor when you are reading them and they answer only a few questions and I don't claim that the explanations are complete.

ADVENTURE: NY Fashion Week

Modeling Success: RESEARCH

Why runway shows need tall llamas:

Short "High Fashion Runway" llamas = "Haubbits"


Hope that those links help a little.

LMAO.
The four capitals of the world fashion wise still use llamas here too for day to day stuff fyi.
But in Newport we are a little fucking short on agency runway llamas who will work for £100 and a pair of shoes at a little fashion show at the Celtic Manor. So how dare you call some of the girls we may use hobbits. Just get out of here mate if you are so up yourself that you think you can get supermodels to shoot with you and leave the llama mayhem girls for people like the rest of us who without them we'd be fucked. For every Gucci there are a thousand of us who need llamas. You can hang around here fishing for Gucci and you'd be right they won't come. So what you doing here then? You are as out of touch with reality as the dreamer so called llamas who think they are going to do Vogue. I skip those ports; and anyone who can't tell them apart is an idiot.

Someone like Jessa at 5ft 2 ins would have no shortage of fashion work in Newport let alone London. OK 'Newport Life' isn't Vogue but they still do fashion features every month; and have maybe twenty or thirty advertisers shooting ads for their designs and boutiques and photographers who don't turn their nose up at a shorter llama if they can llama as well as Jessa.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
If people were happy with who they are they wouldn't venture onto MM.
It's all about dreams as is advertising.
Peoples hopes and aspirations are the same on MM as in advertising 'being happy'.

That is a crock mate.
Most models I use and pay here over the last few years are not into dreaming and are very comfortable with who they are. They just happen to make a living from modelling and know most of us can't afford agency models and when we can they don't do sod all. But then I know what models are for; it is some of you guys who are apparently struggling with it. They are for making great shapes; sticking pins in and don't whine and tell us how it feels and moves eloquently; chatting for an hour to a posh bird in the outfit to show here how the drape/movement works; modelling your design at an event on tv; doing a bit of burlesque; doing runway shows at the local hotel charity ball; holding an excrutiatingly painful pose for art students who want a clip round the ear; posing for a sculpture that is going to be cast for public space; getting in the Daily Sport not Playboy; posing for the local bridal shop for their ad; and so on. Anyone who thinks modelling is about something else is not living in the real world. Whether that is some of the photographers or models. And neither know what normal working professional models of the type on model mayhem actually do it appears to me. So they look down their noses at them.

I see you are in 'Nam so would you like an invite for a big event we are holding there soon so you can see what professional models do - they will all be from model mayhem? You can tell them they are dreamers face to face.

Right I have said my bit at Eliza's request so I am off back to work.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
....its notable that NONE of the better known traveling nude models have posted that I have seen.

... probably because nude models aren't fixated on the fashion industry or "making it," which is apparently what this thread decomposed into - bickering over fashion models.

Traveling nude models have already learned how to market themselves, and "make it" every time they have a successful shoot with an artist they admire, or with someone who fairly compensates them for a job.

We don't exactly have to worry about that silly Military Industrial Complex known on MM as the ... Fashion Industry. It's largely irrelevant to our lives and work.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
They are busy traveling, working and making money not wasting their time in this forum.

and there's this ^


...and the fact that posting in this thread is now a complete waste of time and energy.

PonyGurlCouture wrote:
That is a crock mate.
Most models I use and pay here over the last few years are not into dreaming and are very comfortable with who they are. They just happen to make a living from modelling and know most of us can't afford agency models and when we can they don't do sod all. But then I know what models are for; it is some of you guys who are apparently struggling with it. They are for making great shapes; sticking pins in and don't whine and tell us how it feels and moves eloquently; chatting for an hour to a posh bird in the outfit to show here how the drape/movement works; modelling your design at an event on tv; doing a bit of burlesque; doing runway shows at the local hotel charity ball; holding an excrutiatingly painful pose for art students who want a clip round the ear; posing for a sculpture that is going to be cast for public space; getting in the Daily Sport not Playboy; posing for the local bridal shop for their ad; and so on. Anyone who thinks modelling is about something else is not living in the real world. Whether that is some of the photographers or models. And neither know what normal working professional models of the type on model mayhem actually do it appears to me. So they look down their noses at them.

I see you are in 'Nam so would you like an invite for a big event we are holding there soon so you can see what professional models do - they will all be from model mayhem? You can tell them they are dreamers face to face.

Right I have said my bit at Eliza's request so I am off back to work.

I love you.

DinoUnchained wrote:
I love you.

Thanks Dino love you too.

What all this about is - and I have seen Eliza take on the usual suspects in other threads too - is this.

"YOU are not real models. WE know 'real' models and we shoot them. IF you are very good girls we may lower ourselves to working with you if you work for free and are 6ft and size 0 and can make you famous. Otherwise you should pay us to shoot you because WE have the commerical experience; and the rest of you are just low lifes."

I guess they feel important trying to lord it over you all.
Otherwise; if they believe their own bullshit what are they doing here?
Luckily they are the minority and the majority of us here who are not models actually have ports to find models to pay them for their look, skills, input, and experience and massive effort  they put into our projects. Because they aren't here to be famous; just to work.

PonyGurlCouture wrote:
I'd like to see what you'd think if your profile was on that article.
I know Eliza was like 'that could have been my port'; instead of Jessa's; so felt very strongly about this.
There are some shit photographers here too mate but if the article used your port  to represent that you'd be pissed off right?
Fashion and commercial photographers looking down their nose at the models here should just piss off to the agencies then and stop trying to poach girls here to work for free by running them down. God there are some fucking egos here.

Fashion is about fantasy when it's selling perfume. Some of us actually make and sell quality clothes to real women; for which we need real models all the way; from fit to show to little ad in a magazine.

And don't patronise Jessa. I just can't believe you can look at that article and say it wasn't about models like Jessa when it had her picture at the top.

I HAVE been to London fashion week with Eliza. And interestingly enough Eliza did runway for Agent Provocateur (not that I went to that show) - I guess they thought she'd look as good in the clothes being their fit model as the Agency girls. So what you say about samples has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I am not disputing that the industry uses top models for their showcase events and editorials etc - course they do. But that is a tiny part of the rag trade mate.

Better know nude models? I don't know about the USA but who here is a better known nude model than Eliza? Know what the Royal Academy is do you mate?

BTW the fashion houses all make a pretty hefty loss without the smellies. The vast majority of us in fashion don't have that luxury.

That article was written by someone who knows sod all about modelling and even less about fashion and think it is all Vogue magazine. As do some of you.

I can see why your friends with Eliza.   Anyway....no one is saying that shorter non agency signed models can't find fashion work but its usually very, very limited.   Most of the work found on sites like MM tends to be glamor or nude.   There just aren't a lot of designers that I know paying models here.   Some, sure but its mostly some sort of unpaid test deal.   Short models on sites like MM who don't do nudes don't book much paid work and I believe Jessa does nudes.   Udor and others are talking about the real world of runway modeling and despite your dissertation on tiny models the fact is the majority of work in print, runway and commercial work in the US is done by standard industry height models.   Many of whom are under 21 and 5'8" and taller, White, thin and pretty women.

I can't speak for the UK.   Again there is paid work at all levels.   I know a Chicago Asian model who works all the time and doesn't do nudes.   Another MM member who's short just did a DOVE billboard.   However most of the work from sites like MM tends to pay very little if at all expect for nudes.   As for the model the article seemed to bash.   The models profile number was visible but I don't think it was meant as a attack on her.   It was a general overview of most of the web based models and was largely on point.   Most have no real desire to model beyond doing those corny self taken shots in their bathrooms.   Most have photos that are over processed and if they did go to a real casting would confuse everyone there as to who they were based on the liberal use of the liquefy tool and skin smoothing. 


The key is this.   If you are making money and are successful then what I say or Udor says or some goofy article on a web site says, isn't germane to you.   If you are a short working model then wonderful and you've proven us wrong and that's wonderful.   By the way, I don't give a fuc% about Agent Provocateur or any of the other stuff Eliza has done or will do now or in the future.   That's because that article wasn't about her or Jessa or any another working model.   It was about however the majority of web based models and any honest person who took a unbiased look around this site could see that.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I can see why your friends with Eliza.   Anyway....no one is saying that shorter non agency signed models can't find fashion work but its usually very, very limited.   Most of the work found on sites like MM tends to be glamor or nude.   There just aren't a lot of designers that I know paying models here.   Some, sure but its mostly some sort of unpaid test deal.   Short models on sites like MM who don't do nudes don't book much paid work and I believe Jessa does nudes.   Udor and others are talking about the real world of runway modeling and despite your dissertation on tiny models the fact is the majority of work in print, runway and commercial work in the US is done by standard industry height models.   Many of whom are under 21 and 5'8" and taller, White, thin and pretty women.

I can't speak for the UK.   Again there is paid work at all levels.   I know a Chicago Asian model who works all the time and doesn't do nudes.   Another MM member who's short just did a DOVE billboard.   However most of the work from sites like MM tends to pay very little if at all expect for nudes.   As for the model the article seemed to bash.   The models profile number was visible but I don't think it was meant as a attack on her.   It was a general overview of most of the web based models and was largely on point.   Most have no real desire to model beyond doing those corny self taken shots in their bathrooms.   Most have photos that are over processed and if they did go to a real casting would confuse everyone there as to who they were based on the liberal use of the liquefy tool and skin smoothing. 


The key is this.   If you are making money and are successful then what I say or Udor says or some goofy article on a web site says, isn't germane to you.   If you are a short working model then wonderful and you've proven us wrong and that's wonderful.   By the way, I don't give a fuc% about Agent Provocateur or any of the other stuff Eliza has done or will do now or in the future.   That's because that article wasn't about her or Jessa or any another working model.   It was about however the majority of web based models and any honest person who took a unbiased look around this site could see that.

Look mate obvioulsy you have no respect for internet models so don't look at their ports here or you would say that article wasn't representative.

I'd say it is clear you don't give a fuck about Eliza's work for AP or any other models' experence here - because like all prejudiced views it suits you to believe a stereotype rather than hear what a model who actually worked in fashion has to say.

But I did and do use models here. And yes I have seen a couple of council estate girls whose mum has told them they can be a model so they have a mobile pic. You don't see many like that; and they won't work. So how are they models?  But the majority of ports I have seen I'd say Eliza and Jessa and Dino and Sarah etc pretty much typical. And I have been through thousands. I may not have much money; but I know what I want. And I use nude, pin-up, fashion, and even a glamour model doing my fashion stuff because she looked great in my stuff. All have been experienced, published or working in one form or another; and I was absolutely spoiled for choice and barely came across any ot the type of which you and the article speak.

Now if you think you know all about fashion you toddle off and work in it at that top level  because you don't need us. But remember on your way up that ladder you may meet some of us on your way back down.

Now I hope other designers in Nepwort area mind me saying this but there will be about 50 of us. Most of us don't sell to people in Newport; a bit to people in the county; some in London and a lot of it abroad.
I make half my living which is meagre but turnover is respectable from fashion. Now let's say the average designer round here does similar to me and takes £30k of foreign money every year. That is over the 20 years I have been doing it around £300k of turnover. Times by 50 = £15 million. Just in Newport. Foreign money going in the local economy paying for van drivers, seamstresses, models, small habaerdashery stores, local (or at least UK) textile makers, exhibition companies (that do marquees, carpetting, lighting etc) and staff at events. Meanwhile we don't see any evidence of the existence of your fashion world above the perfume sold in the town and the billboards. What masquerades as fashion is the high street chains; much of it designed and made outside the UK and draining the country dry. This is reflected not just in fashion but in almost any product. Paris - where I learned the trade - is another matter. The hundreds of seamstresses and models etc working there the fashion houses feel an obligation to support. They use top models for top shows and editorials too but they too use the bog standard models day in day out.

If you think this site is just about nude models - and as an artist I use them too; and have even shot some glamour for the glamour model I mentioned - then what are you doing here?

I think I have made my point. The £15 million generated by fashion designers in Newport over these years doesn't mean fuck all to you but it keeps people in jobs; and this is repeated in every town and cottage industry in the UK; billions generated by small companies that get no assistance from government, banks etc and are just doing it struggling along quietly. We all advertise and we all sell and we all keep people in decent rewarding jobs; and we all need models from time to time and we don't use agencies. So you go and toodle off and work for Dove who will pay for your agency models like I said and let the small fry among us appreciate the hard working professional models who are here. They aren't the dreamers; you are.

PonyGurlCouture wrote:

Eliza is in Greenland. She hasn't got time to address some of the bullshit going down on here so has asked me to do it.
I haven't got time either; so I shall address this having read through it as quickly as I can.

First of all; I do a bit of fashion design.
Yep; I actually design make stuff and sell it; to what some may see as high society ladies. The stuff is expensive; I pay £40 for a metre of tweed and some of my designs have 5 metres. I am one of tens of thousands of small designers just in the UK.
I am also Eliza's partner.
She modelled for me for 18 months then we started going out. So I lived in London with her for a while. So I have met a lot of her colleagues in modelling.
I have also used 7 models from Model Mayhem without problems prior to and since meeting her; and one photographer. Most of the time I couldn't afford a photographer; so mine had to do. I have used one Agency model before I knew about MM and got charged a fortune; she did sweet f.a; and the clothes I designed looked shit on her.
Fashion needs all shapes and sizes. My designs need women with shape. I can't make clothes for androgynous boy shaped 14 year old women in order to sell perfume because I haven't got perfume. I have to sell them actual clothing to real women; and thefore as any designer who is actually marketing clothing has to design on real bodies.

Through Eliza I have seen a bit of the world some of you people live in. Fashion marketing is a dream yes. But the fashion industry itself isn't. Most of Eliza's colleagues are as she describes. They don't want to 'be' big shots. They are happy doing stuff like fitting and modelling for designers like me at small fashion events, trade and retail fairs and events; and fashion students too.  But they also work in the design houses many of them. And I have met some of the big designers personally through her too. Can't say I have met to my knowledge a big shot photographer or any of those people involved in the campaign and marketing side because that is a different world; though one a lot of you guys are involved with or have aspirations to.
But the models don't. I probably have met maybe 50 models through Eliza and a dozen through my own work. Some are what you'd call alt models though I detest the word; some are fit models and some even do the odd bit of campaign stuff. And they do the small magazine and bridal catalogue stuff and that kind of thing. Nearly all of them  make a living from modelling; though may also do promotional and even life modelling. They are all shapes and sizes. I have also been to fashion shows with Eliza where she has modelled for other small designers. And again you may get the odd Agency model but usually it is the kind of model you find here; alongside maybe a couple of their best clients daughters and stuff.

But Eliza and the other girls have told you all this as far as I can see so I don't know why she wants me to add to it; except I suppose you get a small designer's perspective who is also an artist; so uses models a lot in one guise or another.

I am pretty sure the fit models at places like Agent Provocateur where Eliza worked for a couple for a couple of years are not Agency models. They certainly aren't 14 years old and plucked from obscurity to be supermodels. That is dream stuff; and that is probably how it works at that level. But that is about campaign and editorial fashion photography. For the most part that isn't what most professional models do or expect to do. They do a bit of it on times. One model I used who is on Model Mayhem did a massive campaign but I think that is only one of about 4 she has done in her career. She makes her main living picking up promo modelling jobs here; even saw her promoting mobile phones. She is also Agency signed but they don't get her much but she works every day.

I think you will find most designers aren't dreamers either. We just like making stuff and eek a living from it. Eliza has been involved modelling on the fringes of London fashion week as have her colleagues. But this is two events of the year; where yes it will mostly be agency girls. It also only has the elite tip of a very huge rag trade designer wise. But for the other 50 weeks of the year when we are showing at little hotel fashion shows and society events and making the stuff with the seamstress on a daily basis or regional magazines want to profile our stuff or you do a little advert do you think we are going to use Agency models? Dream on.

I feel sorry for the girl you dated that you thought her hard work on a daily basis meant she wasn't successful because she didn't have 'it'. 'It' isn't what most modelling is about.

I have at Eliza's request looked at the ports of models in this thread and I'd be pleased to use almost any of them; and be honoured if they lowered themselves to actually doing a bit for the likes of me. I couldn't believe it when I got Eliza or other models here. The contempt in which they have been treated by the article in question and some of you high and mighty photographers sucks to be frank. But what do I know I am just a small fashion designer and artist who uses models day in day out and only ever been able to afford one agency one who was a waste of space.

Now I know that some of you are involved in that whole NYC fashion scene good on yer; although it hasn't gone unoticed that none of you have id'd the designer she is with in the pic she posted; which makes me wonder.

But this isn't the NYC state of mind. This is the real world. Newport state of mind. LMAO at yer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx8CZyFM4b4

+10,000 !!

PonyGurlCouture wrote:

I'd like to see what you'd think if your profile was on that article.
I know Eliza was like 'that could have been my port'; instead of Jessa's; so felt very strongly about this.
There are some shit photographers here too mate but if the article used your port  to represent that you'd be pissed off right?
Fashion and commercial photographers looking down their nose at the models here should just piss off to the agencies then and stop trying to poach girls here to work for free by running them down. God there are some fucking egos here.

Fashion is about fantasy when it's selling perfume. Some of us actually make and sell quality clothes to real women; for which we need real models all the way; from fit to show to little ad in a magazine.

And don't patronise Jessa. I just can't believe you can look at that article and say it wasn't about models like Jessa when it had her picture at the top.

I HAVE been to London fashion week with Eliza. And interestingly enough Eliza did runway for Agent Provocateur (not that I went to that show) - I guess they thought she'd look as good in the clothes being their fit model as the Agency girls. So what you say about samples has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I am not disputing that the industry uses top models for their showcase events and editorials etc - course they do. But that is a tiny part of the rag trade mate.

Better know nude models? I don't know about the USA but who here is a better known nude model than Eliza? Know what the Royal Academy is do you mate?

BTW the fashion houses all make a pretty hefty loss without the smellies. The vast majority of us in fashion don't have that luxury.

That article was written by someone who knows sod all about modelling and even less about fashion and think it is all Vogue magazine. As do some of you.

YES! Thank you. Some of you on here need to open your tiny minds and really see the bigger picture and the possibilities from a real world perspective.

PonyGurlCouture wrote:

Eliza is in Greenland. She hasn't got time to address some of the bullshit going down on here so has asked me to do it.
I haven't got time either; so I shall address this having read through it as quickly as I can.

First of all; I do a bit of fashion design.
Yep; I actually design make stuff and sell it; to what some may see as high society ladies. The stuff is expensive; I pay £40 for a metre of tweed and some of my designs have 5 metres. I am one of tens of thousands of small designers just in the UK.
I am also Eliza's partner.
She modelled for me for 18 months then we started going out. So I lived in London with her for a while. So I have met a lot of her colleagues in modelling.
I have also used 7 models from Model Mayhem without problems prior to and since meeting her; and one photographer. Most of the time I couldn't afford a photographer; so mine had to do. I have used one Agency model before I knew about MM and got charged a fortune; she did sweet f.a; and the clothes I designed looked shit on her.
Fashion needs all shapes and sizes. My designs need women with shape. I can't make clothes for androgynous boy shaped 14 year old women in order to sell perfume because I haven't got perfume. I have to sell them actual clothing to real women; and thefore as any designer who is actually marketing clothing has to design on real bodies.

Through Eliza I have seen a bit of the world some of you people live in. Fashion marketing is a dream yes. But the fashion industry itself isn't. Most of Eliza's colleagues are as she describes. They don't want to 'be' big shots. They are happy doing stuff like fitting and modelling for designers like me at small fashion events, trade and retail fairs and events; and fashion students too.  But they also work in the design houses many of them. And I have met some of the big designers personally through her too. Can't say I have met to my knowledge a big shot photographer or any of those people involved in the campaign and marketing side because that is a different world; though one a lot of you guys are involved with or have aspirations to.
But the models don't. I probably have met maybe 50 models through Eliza and a dozen through my own work. Some are what you'd call alt models though I detest the word; some are fit models and some even do the odd bit of campaign stuff. And they do the small magazine and bridal catalogue stuff and that kind of thing. Nearly all of them  make a living from modelling; though may also do promotional and even life modelling. They are all shapes and sizes. I have also been to fashion shows with Eliza where she has modelled for other small designers. And again you may get the odd Agency model but usually it is the kind of model you find here; alongside maybe a couple of their best clients daughters and stuff.

But Eliza and the other girls have told you all this as far as I can see so I don't know why she wants me to add to it; except I suppose you get a small designer's perspective who is also an artist; so uses models a lot in one guise or another.

I am pretty sure the fit models at places like Agent Provocateur where Eliza worked for a couple for a couple of years are not Agency models. They certainly aren't 14 years old and plucked from obscurity to be supermodels. That is dream stuff; and that is probably how it works at that level. But that is about campaign and editorial fashion photography. For the most part that isn't what most professional models do or expect to do. They do a bit of it on times. One model I used who is on Model Mayhem did a massive campaign but I think that is only one of about 4 she has done in her career. She makes her main living picking up promo modelling jobs here; even saw her promoting mobile phones. She is also Agency signed but they don't get her much but she works every day.

I think you will find most designers aren't dreamers either. We just like making stuff and eek a living from it. Eliza has been involved modelling on the fringes of London fashion week as have her colleagues. But this is two events of the year; where yes it will mostly be agency girls. It also only has the elite tip of a very huge rag trade designer wise. But for the other 50 weeks of the year when we are showing at little hotel fashion shows and society events and making the stuff with the seamstress on a daily basis or regional magazines want to profile our stuff or you do a little advert do you think we are going to use Agency models? Dream on.

I feel sorry for the girl you dated that you thought her hard work on a daily basis meant she wasn't successful because she didn't have 'it'. 'It' isn't what most modelling is about.

I have at Eliza's request looked at the ports of models in this thread and I'd be pleased to use almost any of them; and be honoured if they lowered themselves to actually doing a bit for the likes of me. I couldn't believe it when I got Eliza or other models here. The contempt in which they have been treated by the article in question and some of you high and mighty photographers sucks to be frank. But what do I know I am just a small fashion designer and artist who uses models day in day out and only ever been able to afford one agency one who was a waste of space.

Now I know that some of you are involved in that whole NYC fashion scene good on yer; although it hasn't gone unoticed that none of you have id'd the designer she is with in the pic she posted; which makes me wonder.

But this isn't the NYC state of mind. This is the real world. Newport state of mind. LMAO at yer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx8CZyFM4b4

I'm on a phone so I can't really address all your points right now, as they are many...

You seem to think that I am disparaging non fashion models (or perhaps better stated, non agency models), I'm not. I have great respect for the work they do - especially fine art models who I find to be exceptionally hard working. But these threads always devolve into a discussion of real world fashion modeling and, at least in my neck of the woods, what I stated is the reality of it.

As far as your comments about my attitude toward my ex goes you can sod off. ;-). She would be the first to tell you what I did and more. She had a great run doing what she did and is now very successful in another career. I have tremendouse respect for what she has, and what she continues to, accomplish. What I related was her reality (and she was signed with a major agency).

Jessa The Austin Model wrote:
+10,000 !!

take no notice of the arrogant dickeads here Jessa. They aren't the ones designing fashion and I'd be priviliged to use someone like you. Utterly amazing that there are a few photographers here who have tasted or want to taste the high life telling us what models do and fashion is all about. I don't know wtf I am supposed to be doing then but it looks like clothes to me and it'll knock the crap out of what masquerades as fashion in high street stores; most of which knicked my designs and made them in vastly inferior fabrics last season. I guess they don't realise we can tell where our hits come from with google analytics.

Paramour Productions wrote:
I'm on a phone so I can't really address all your points right now, as they are many...

You seem to think that I am disparaging non fashion models (or perhaps better stated, non agency models), I'm not. I have great respect for the work they do - especially fine art models who I find to be exceptionally hard working. But these threads always devolve into a discussion of real world fashion modeling and, at least in my neck of the woods, what I stated is the reality of it.

As far as your comments about my attitude toward my ex goes you can sod off. ;-). She would be the first to tell you what I did and more. She had a great run doing what she did and is now very successful in another career. I have tremendouse respect for what she has, and what she continues to, accomplish. What I related was her reality (and she was signed with a major agency).

I design fashion. You don't.
The girls here are models; you are not.
End of story really.

Sod off yourself and come back when you can actually make something that someone can wear and realise what you need models for.

Well at least you aren't the worst you can see that fine art models are valuable to your work rather than looking down on them, as second class citizens. And you appeared to be saying that your ex was that because she was only a fitting model so couldn't make it to the top. I don't know any fitting models that aspire to; and a lot of Eliza's friends are fit models - agency and non but they mostly have ports here and other modelling sites.

But as Eliza and others have said here there is more to the real fashion world than the little slice at top corporate advertising level  you think is the reality. It's the rag trade mate it isn't about that. I can't design anything without a fit model and from what I have seen they are the ones who are the backbone of fashion day in day out.

Jessa The Austin Model wrote:

YES! Thank you. Some of you on here need to open your tiny minds and really see the bigger picture and the possibilities from a real world perspective.

Oh, here we go...

Image K wrote:

Oh, here we go...

I think Jessa is referring to things like when I sent two designs to Japan for a show marketing tweed I had to cut them for 5ft 2" models.

PonyGurlCouture wrote:

LMAO.
The four capitals of the world fashion wise still use models here too for day to day stuff fyi.

So how dare you call some of the girls we may use hobbits. Just get out of here mate if you are so up yourself that you think you can get supermodels to shoot with you and leave the model mayhem girls for people like the rest of us who without them we'd be fucked.

Have you even read the disclaimer and definition of a "Haubbit" (note the spelling!)?

You are confusing things and you have not read my other posts..., which is funny, because Eliza didn't read them either until, in the end, she realized that we were in agreements in many regards.

You don't know me, you don't have a clue how much I am involved in the industry, beyond photography which I have mentioned in this thread!

So, why don't you just chill a little or try decaf...

udor wrote:
Have you even read the disclaimer and definition of a "Haubbit" (note the spelling!)?

You are confusing things and you have not read my other posts..., which is funny, because Eliza didn't read them either until, in the end, she realized that we were in agreements in many regards.

You don't know me, you don't have a clue how much I am involved in the industry, beyond photography which I have mentioned in this thread!

So, why don't you just chill a little or try decaf...

Mate I am sticking pins in a model right now. So if I seem a bit harsh that is why. You may be involved in the industry but I am the industry. Or rather; just one tiny part of it. I have read your posts you seem to say one thing then another. And she called you out on it - it was you who changed your tumne now these 'articles' you post go back to your former stance. My current model is 5ft 4 and a half inches. She just came to me lunchtime after a fashion shoot for the local rag. If any event comes up while Eliza is away she will be modelling for me and she is not on Model Mayhem but will be soon. She is Agency; though I got her via a Newport fashion student. Seems to me she makes a living from them. This afternoon I shall be shooting her because I can't afford a photographer because that can buy enough tweed to make 5 garments. I am not in mass production so don't need to advertise and when I do I just get ripped off. So if you have been party to this world then you know that it is a big part of it. There will be loads of this going on just in my town alone (and it's a shitty town) so go to places like Northampton and Luton or places like Brick Lane in London and times it by ten. A lot of the models are taller anyway. But I want one that is 5ft 6 ins size 10 because that is the average height of the women I sell to so can sell them off the peg. I have a beautiful size 6 jacket made on a 5ft 11 ins girl I have had for an aeon; never again.
My brother who is my business partner goes bonkers if I make anything for small sizes because they hang around (btw sizes quotes are UK not USA).
I don't drink coffee and have banned Eliza from drinking it

Anyway I don't see your world but I did glimpse it via Eliza's work in London. I even saw Sophie Dahl in the local cafe a few trimes so can confirm that is all as she said; the same for the London fashion week parties at BBB and the Gore. So when and if you are ever in London at Brick Lane or something and see the clothes being loaded into the vans on rails to do some show somehwere the likelihood is those Asian boys won't be using Agency models for their stuff either. They use Eliza's mates.

EDIT. Right just had an email from Eliza. Who is currently photographing reindeer near some glacier. She can't seem to log in on her phone. She says to post an article she wrote in RESOURCES (whatever that is) which is what regular models; often freelance;  in the fashion industry - rather than campaign models - do:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=789480

Right I am back to work. I am not paying a model to stand here drinking tea! Good luck to you Udor but I really don't know what you are doing here telling us there are no fashion models here yet you are here telling the ones that actually work in fashion houses and even do a bit of campaign work  all about it.

Lizzy Borden wrote:
Despite the article being on an internet mag, isn't Elite a "real" physical magazine as well?

Because if so that would explain why they are so pissy about internet models...they probably get their models straight from modeling agencies...

I think Eliza told me they were a lifestyle internet mag with low hits not the model agency. But the writer is anonymous.

PonyGurlCouture wrote:
Look mate obvioulsy you have no respect for internet models so don't look at their ports here or you would say that article wasn't representative.

I'd say it is clear you don't give a fuck about Eliza's work for AP or any other models' experence here - because like all prejudiced views it suits you to believe a stereotype rather than hear what a model who actually worked in fashion has to say.

But I did and do use models here. And yes I have seen a couple of council estate girls whose mum has told them they can be a model so they have a mobile pic. You don't see many like that; and they won't work. So how are they models?  But the majority of ports I have seen I'd say Eliza and Jessa and Dino and Sarah etc pretty much typical. And I have been through thousands. I may not have much money; but I know what I want. And I use nude, pin-up, fashion, and even a glamour model doing my fashion stuff because she looked great in my stuff. All have been experienced, published or working in one form or another; and I was absolutely spoiled for choice and barely came across any ot the type of which you and the article speak.

Now if you think you know all about fashion you toddle off and work in it at that top level  because you don't need us. But remember on your way up that ladder you may meet some of us on your way back down.

Now I hope other designers in Nepwort area mind me saying this but there will be about 50 of us. Most of us don't sell to people in Newport; a bit to people in the county; some in London and a lot of it abroad.
I make half my living which is meagre but turnover is respectable from fashion. Now let's say the average designer round here does similar to me and takes £30k of foreign money every year. That is over the 20 years I have been doing it around £300k of turnover. Times by 50 = £15 million. Just in Newport. Foreign money going in the local economy paying for van drivers, seamstresses, models, small habaerdashery stores, local (or at least UK) textile makers, exhibition companies (that do marquees, carpetting, lighting etc) and staff at events. Meanwhile we don't see any evidence of the existence of your fashion world above the perfume sold in the town and the billboards. What masquerades as fashion is the high street chains; much of it designed and made outside the UK and draining the country dry. This is reflected not just in fashion but in almost any product. Paris - where I learned the trade - is another matter. The hundreds of seamstresses and models etc working there the fashion houses feel an obligation to support. They use top models for top shows and editorials too but they too use the bog standard models day in day out.

If you think this site is just about nude models - and as an artist I use them too; and have even shot some glamour for the glamour model I mentioned - then what are you doing here?

I think I have made my point. The £15 million generated by fashion designers in Newport over these years doesn't mean fuck all to you but it keeps people in jobs; and this is repeated in every town and cottage industry in the UK; billions generated by small companies that get no assistance from government, banks etc and are just doing it struggling along quietly. We all advertise and we all sell and we all keep people in decent rewarding jobs; and we all need models from time to time and we don't use agencies. So you go and toodle off and work for Dove who will pay for your agency models like I said and let the small fry among us appreciate the hard working professional models who are here. They aren't the dreamers; you are.

I never said  I didn't have respect for anyone.   My point was that article wasn't written for models like Eliza and Jessa.    It was and is a general overview of most web based models.   I told everyone about the salon who hired two Craigslist models and just didn't show.   No call either and for paid work.   Just imagine a client who is paying for a studio and MUA and a photographer.   If I book a agency model they can replace models quickly.   Who do, I call when Suzy the MM model flakes?   I will repeat this but odds are you'll write another novel length reply and not see it.

Clients with decent budgets should use agency models.   Those without the money and are forced to book a web based model should be prepared for flakes, late models, escorts and last minute bullshi^.   Not in all cases but busy people aren't interested in checking your references and asking about you.   Second; models under 5'7" aren't going to do fashion work for real world clients for money for the most part.   Last; Paid work from sites like this one, omp and others is with photographers who are shooting primarily  nude.   Telling models they will make real money the kind they can live on strictly as a fashion only model under 5'7" and without nudes is silly.    Heck even with nudes its difficult.

However, again if I don't know what I'm talking about then ignore me.   If you are making thousands of dollars from being on sites like MM then who cares what I say or think and why debate someone who obliviously is crazy and wrong.

PonyGurlCouture wrote:
I have read your posts you seem to say one thing then another. And she called you out on it - it was you who changed your tumne now these 'articles' you post go back to your former stance.


Good luck to you Udor but I really don't know what you are doing here telling us there are no fashion models here yet you are here telling the ones that actually work in fashion houses and even do a bit of campaign work  all about it.

Here we go again...   

Please point out where I am saying that there are no fashion models on here... P l e a s e!!!

I have posted a nice reply to her, correcting things I supposedly have said and if you would be so nice and showing me where I have said any of those things.

Thank you very much!

A R M wrote:

And I think it is not fair that some movie star earns way more money than a scientist but that is the world we live in. You wanna change that? Invent something better than capitalism.

I so agree with this (although all finiancial methods that have move away from Capitalism have ended up being worse).  I've been an engineer for 6 years now.  I have my first ever paid modeling shoot in a couple of weeks and the hourly rate I am getting is 3 times my hourly rate as an engineer!

Now I know that it's not really comparible (37 hour week vs a few hours here and there) but I do find it very odd.

Sadly the amount you get paid reflects how much profit your industry makes not how worthwhile your job is.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Those without the money and are forced to book a web based llama should be prepared for flakes, late llamas, escorts and last minute bullshi^.

Thanks. :-P

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I never said  I didn't have respect for anyone.   My point was that article wasn't written for models like Eliza and Jessa.    It was and is a general overview of most web based models.   I told everyone about the salon who hired two Craigslist models and just didn't show.   No call either and for paid work.   Just imagine a client who is paying for a studio and MUA and a photographer.   If I book a agency model they can replace models quickly.   Who do, I call when Suzy the MM model flakes?   I will repeat this but odds are you'll write another novel length reply and not see it.

Clients with decent budgets should use agency models.   Those without the money and are forced to book a web based model should be prepared for flakes, late models, escorts and last minute bullshi^.   Not in all cases but busy people aren't interested in checking your references and asking about you.   Second; models under 5'7" aren't going to do fashion work for real world clients for money for the most part.   Last; Paid work from sites like this one, omp and others is with photographers who are shooting primarily  nude.   Telling models they will make real money the kind they can live on strictly as a fashion only model under 5'7" and without nudes is silly.    Heck even with nudes its difficult.

However, again if I don't know what I'm talking about then ignore me.   If you are making thousands of dollars from being on sites like MM then who cares what I say or think and why debate someone who obliviously is crazy and wrong.

I see what Eliza means by word twisters. I turn over thousands of pounds not dollars annulally. Profit is small. But all my models are on model mayhem; and I pay them because they are professionals. My one expense at an agency model she looked like a prepubescent sack of shit in my clothes.

Models don't get work from photographers everyone knows that. They don't even pay when the gig is through an ad agency. If they are given control of the model budget they keep it themselves and try it on with naive young models who they persuade to do it for free; or more likely the models are booked sperately by the agency or chosen by the designers. BUT most of the work doesn't involve photography at the kind of level you are talking about.

There are TWO industries here and you can't seem to differentiate between them.
One is the fashion industry; and the other is the advertising industry.

I am part of the fashion industry like many other small designers can't get involved in the latter but that doesn't stop us en masse contributing millions to help sorting the balance of payments deficit. So what we do is for 12 weeks we are on a collection and for the whole time just about we use a fitting model. They mostly work with other girls who match them so they can swap about; because they are like rocking horse shit because we often use the same ones that the big houses do. They are well paid; but reasonable for what they do. So then comes the initial photos when they are done. You get in the photographer next door or diy. Then you give the clothes an outing. To an event. Your model does that to because she is the one it has been made on. Then it gets in the papers. Best one for me was Eliza being photographed at London fashion week because there are hundreds of us can't get in the new designer bit so we'll bushwhack it. I also use models at the races to model the stuff which is how Eliza got involved with all the other designers doing the same thing; and the pictures get everywhere from mainstream tv to local newpapers to Horse and Hound to the Racing Post to Marie Claire. Then we get other photographers interested in doing some stuff for editorial features; whether it be local magazines or photographers here having a go. So again it is free advertising. Then at this stage you go back to fit and iron out any problems the fit model due to her expereince has identified. Then you go to trade fairs at home abroad. Again you take your models. Then you do fashion shows and a boutique buys three pieces; another two. Then you take them to big retail events and more fashion shows with other small designers. The only photographers are local press.
By this time over six months you may have recouperated costs and then start again. By the time you are ready for the next collection you may have made £3-5k for yourself out of the turnover; but employed a lot of people in that process including models who have worked their arse off for you.

Now there are thousands of us sharing these models sometimes with big fashion houses and the boutiques and the wholesale fashion concerns it is thanks to their dedication and not dropping us like hot shit when they get a bigger designer wanting them that we can do this at all.

There that is the real fashion world. Agency models and Dove adverts has nothing to do with it apart from the odd bit of work that the models get. They still make a living though thanks to the thousands of little outfits like me. And when photographers want them for nothing you don't get why they say no do you? They know they aren't going to get into Vogue this is their living not pie in the sky.

I have never be let down by a Model Mayhem model and they have all been 100% professional; on time; no issues with escorts. That goes for the art nude girls and burlesque girls too. Perhaps you are just picking the chancers because you don't want to pay I don't know. Or perhaps they just don't let designers down. But I am pretty sure if the ones I have used are anything to go by they've never flaked on anyone.

Now I read somehwre that Eliza offered you I think it was to see her paychecks. She isn't going top do that publicly but she'll do it privately. So that will tell you what you are saying about models under 5ft 7ins not being able to earn a living out of fashion is rubbish. Her flatmate's partner was only 5ft 3 ins and did similar for the day to day income though she is also an actress. And loads more of her friends too. Maybe the shoot work for editorial is at a low level and even parts stand in stuff. But they aren't in the advertising business they are in the rag trade. And when I started going out with her and the recsssion made things tight for me it was her income that kept us being able to live in London and most of it was fashion generated.

udor wrote:
Edit: I am on my cellphone and my response was swollowed by the net...

Here we go again...   

Please point out where I am saying that there are no fashion models on here... P l e a s e!!!

I have posted a nice reply to her, correcting things I supposedly have said and if you would be so nice and showing me where I have said any of those things.

Thank you very much!

I don't recognise what you are saying here compared with your articles in which you say short girls bigger girls etc can't work in fashion. And I don't wish to waste time if you accept that there are lots of fashion models here and they don't necessarily fit the bill. I don't think they expect you to hire them, they know it is going to be people like me all the way up to couture houses; whether they are freelance or agency. And the 'industry norm' that the advertising and editorial world goes by is not what we are after.

PonyGurlCouture wrote:
I see what Eliza means by word twisters. I turn over thousands of pounds not dollars annulally. Profit is small. But all my models are on model mayhem; and I pay them because they are professionals. My one expense at an agency model she looked like a prepubescent sack of shit in my clothes.

Models don't get work from photographers everyone knows that. They don't even pay when the gig is through an ad agency. If they are given control of the model budget they keep it themselves and try it on with naive young models who they persuade to do it for free; or more likely the models are booked sperately by the agency or chosen by the designers. BUT most of the work doesn't involve photography at the kind of level you are talking about.

There are TWO industries here and you can't seem to differentiate between them.
One is the fashion industry; and the other is the advertising industry.

I am part of the fashion industry like many other small designers can't get involved in the latter but that doesn't stop us en masse contributing millions to help sorting the balance of payments deficit. So what we do is for 12 weeks we are on a collection and for the whole time just about we use a fitting model. They mostly work with other girls who match them so they can swap about; because they are like rocking horse shit because we often use the same ones that the big houses do. They are well paid; but reasonable for what they do. So then comes the initial photos when they are done. You get in the photographer next door or diy. Then you give the clothes an outing. To an event. Your model does that to because she is the one it has been made on. Then it gets in the papers. Best one for me was Eliza being photographed at London fashion week because there are hundreds of us can't get in the new designer bit so we'll bushwhack it. I also use models at the races to model the stuff which is how Eliza got involved with all the other designers doing the same thing; and the pictures get everywhere from mainstream tv to local newpapers to Horse and Hound to the Racing Post to Marie Claire. Then we get other photographers interested in doing some stuff for editorial features; whether it be local magazines or photographers here having a go. So again it is free advertising. Then at this stage you go back to fit and iron out any problems the fit model due to her expereince has identified. Then you go to trade fairs at home abroad. Again you take your models. Then you do fashion shows and a boutique buys three pieces; another two. Then you take them to big retail events and more fashion shows with other small designers. The only photographers are local press.
By this time over six months you may have recouperated costs and then start again. By the time you are ready for the next collection you may have made £3-5k for yourself out of the turnover; but employed a lot of people in that process including models who have worked their arse off for you.

Now there are thousands of us sharing these models sometimes with big fashion houses and the boutiques and the wholesale fashion concerns it is thanks to their dedication and not dropping us like hot shit when they get a bigger designer wanting them that we can do this at all.

There that is the real fashion world. Agency models and Dove adverts has nothing to do with it apart from the odd bit of work that the models get. They still make a living though thanks to the thousands of little outfits like me. And when photographers want them for nothing you don't get why they say no do you? They know they aren't going to get into Vogue this is their living not pie in the sky.

I have never be let down by a Model Mayhem model and they have all been 100% professional; on time; no issues with escorts. That goes for the art nude girls and burlesque girls too. Perhaps you are just picking the chancers because you don't want to pay I don't know. Or perhaps they just don't let designers down. But I am pretty sure if the ones I have used are anything to go by they've never flaked on anyone.

Brevity is a cool thing.   Okay last post because this is really foolish and this is about web based models not that gobbledegook you just wrote.   On MM most of the work is nude.   Most of those that pay are photographers.  I am speaking for the US and not the UK.   The rest tends to be swim wear or lingerie.   MM does not represent the mainstream industry of fashion or advertising and most of the models here would never be signed by any real world agency.   It is a fun place to network.   It is a resource to use for those with limited budgets as there are some here like Jessa who are beautiful.

It is not a place to book models from when results matter and you need them to be reliable.   It is not a place to book models from when you have the budget to hire models from a agency.
It is not a place to use models from when you have serious money on the line and are paying thousands to a photographer and MUA and stylist.   Are there great models here, yes and I mean no insult to any but companies, designers and real world clients don't have time to vet on-line models which is in part why they use agencies.   You can argue with me all day but the facts won't change.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Brevity is a cool thing.   Okay last post because this is really foolish and this is about web based models not that gobbledegook you just wrote.   On MM most of the work is nude.   Most of those that pay are photographers.  I am speaking for the US and not the UK.   The rest tends to be swim wear or lingerie.   MM does not represent the mainstream industry of fashion or advertising and most of the models here would never be signed by any real world agency.   It is a fun place to network.   It is a resource to use for those with limited budgets as there are some here like Jessa who are beautiful.

It is not a place to book models from when results matter and you need them to be reliable.   It is not a place to book models from when you have the budget to hire models from a agency.
It is not a place to use models from when you have serious money on the line and are paying thousands to a photographer and MUA and stylist.   Are there great models here, yes and I mean no insult to any but companies, designers and real world clients don't have time to vet on-line models which is in part why they use agencies.   You can argue with me all day but the facts won't change.

You are talking about a different world.
My money and models money at this level may not be serious to you but it is to us. And what we do is serious we aren't playing here.
We just aren't big corporations. Now you may get your work from those corporations but don't look down your nose at what thousands like us contrubute to the economy while a lot of the kind of 'clients' in your world are giving all the money to Chinese sweatshops masquerading as fashion. Those that don't have a tradition and a reputation for quality and do a lot in house from design to manufacture for which they need models throughout.

But even the small designers money money is good to the models and they graft for us. Know why? because we may give them three days work a week for six months. So don't talk to me about photographers employing models because how many photographers here have models down as a regular wage on their expenses. Do you even know what a technical is? I'll give you a clue she doesn't go down under the advertising budget.
And as for the art nude that is the same; the artists groups and art education institutions pay them paye wages; as do the bigger design houses. The work is that regular.

Once again all I can say is there is the rag trade and there is advertising business and big fashion mags etc. You big shots may get that advertising and editorial work; the models here will  get a taste of it now and again; but it doesn't even keep the Agency girls in full time employment. So most do a bit of everything. Bloody good jacks of all trades many of them; or specialise in particular niches.

But since when are 'Dove' fashion designers anyway? They are soap mate. Not in the rag trade. And I am the one talking gobblygook. Right. Not.

You don't know the rag trade that is for sure.

Looks to me good a shooter as you are;
I pay models
Agent provocateur pays models; from tehcnicals right up to campaign.
Pretty sure everyone else I know in the rag trade does too; and they don't turn their nose up at models who have their portfolios on the internet.

You don't.

Ok. Models it is up to you who you take note of but ask yourself why Tony is here if all internet models are like the article.

Photographers employ models sometimes. But not if they can persuade you they don't need to. And fair enough; some of you will do well by shooting with Tony for free and it may make those who actually employ models take notice of you. But then he isn't going to pay you as far as I can see so whose advice is best if you are actually at the stage where you can begin to make a living? The models who do; or Tony? He'd like to convince you that you can't.

Why he is also trying to convine me you are not reliable and I should be booking Agency models I have no idea. It isn't going to happen but I need relaible models just as much as the big cleints. More; They don't starve if their models don't show.

Right now I really am off. Some people can't see further than their own lens.