Gemma Cullen
Posts: 57
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom
Hi guys,
I'm pretty new to modelling but I've always taken an escort with me. I had a shoot booked, one where I was doing modelling I wasn't completely comfortable with. I said I was bringing an escort and the photographer cancelled the shoot. Said it affected the creativity between photographer and model. He wanted me to do beauty nude photos, not something I've ever considered doing but I thought it would be good for experience and my portfolio as it was TFP shoot. Then I found out he wanted full frontal nudes !! He has good references on his page. Any advice is it not ok to bring escorts and about nudity
I'm pretty new to modelling but I've always taken an escort with me. I had a shoot booked, one where I was doing modelling I wasn't completely comfortable with. I said I was bringing an escort and the photographer cancelled the shoot. Said it affected the creativity between photographer and model. He wanted me to do beauty nude photos, not something I've ever considered doing but I thought it would be good for experience and my portfolio as it was TFP shoot. Then I found out he wanted full frontal nudes for free!! He has good references on his page. Any advice is it not ok to bring escorts and about nudity for free
Sounds like a pretty weak photographer if he can't be creative with more than one person in the room. However if he pulled the ole bait and switch on you for nudity I'm guessing he had other reasons he didn't want a third person in the room.
Escort, no escort... nudity, no nudity.... set your policies the way you want them and then stick to working with people who have similar policies and ignore the rest.
the whole escort thing is a bit of a "hot topic" here, and has been for years...
you will hear many opinions, some pro-escort and some will be adamantly against... and this thread will quickly balloon a few pages, before ending up like all of them - in a trainwreck
overall, if you feel that you NEED to bring an escort - do... just realize that there are many photographers who refuse to have an escort present, so requiring one as a rule will ultimately cost you gigs...
I've had an escort on only one of my shoots. He kept to himself and in the background. But I can understand why some photographers don't like them. As I'm sure not all escorts are good.
As far as that shoot, that photography seems kinda shady if you ask me
Gemma Cullen
Posts: 57
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom
Thank you all for your comments. It really appreciate them all. I think if there's going to be nudity then an escort, no nudity no escort unless I'm travelling pretty far. I'm going to stick to this
Sita Mae
Posts: 19,566
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
Gemma Cullen wrote: Thank you all for your comments. It really appreciate them all. I think if there's going to be nudity then an escort, no nudity no escort unless I'm travelling pretty far. I'm going to stick to this
That's cool. Just be sure to follow the suggestion above, to be up front about it either on your profile page or in initial communications (preferably both), so that photographers who do not permit escorts can move on without wasting any of your or their time.
To some photographers haveing an "Escort" on the shoot is some times degrading to some. It shows a lack of trust to photographers but then again I see the models point of view as in a safty matters.
This photographer is just out of luck due to him haveing such a gorgeous model to photograph and for tfp and yet pass out on such a wonderful expierance. I think you did the right thing in staying ground and requesting that you keep your escort with you. Belive it is better to be safe than sorry. If your ever in the Los Angeles area and need some creative art works keep me in mind. Escort included.
This is a subject that has had many threads dedicated to it so you can probably find more info by using the forum search. Anyways my opinion is first of all everyone has a right to their own preferences and frankly there are enough models and photographers out there that it shouldn't be a problem finding someone to work with. If you believed in Organic/free range foods only you wouldn't want to shop in a regular supermarket, it would just make you frustrated right? Same thing with picking a photographer/model to work with.
To answer your question though, no, there is nothing wrong with shooting nudes with out an escort and no there is nothing wrong with doing full nudes, or any photos for that matter for free.....if you need them. If you can quote a price and he will pay it, all the better for you. Many models here charge for nude work simply due to supply and demand. There are less models willing to pose nude and thus the models who will find there time to be more valuable. However they don't charge for the sake of being naked. That's generally called stripping
As far as an escort goes....meh. Its almost not worth arguing over. Just stick to your own guns with this one. For many photographers the thought that they are considered dangerous just because you may be naked during the shoot is kind of insulting. Would you have an escort around if you hired a house cleaner, or if the cable guy came to hook up your tv? Generally not. Also many photographers work out of a small studio or home studio and escorts have been known to steal things. Its just not worth the risk sometimes.
I bring an escort with me to al my shoots, especially the nude ones. I can understand a photographer not wanting one there, as they can be distracting. I made sure to put that in my profile though, and it hasn't cost me any gigs or (as far as I know), gotten photographers to steer clear of me. Just go with what you think is best.
Gemma Cullen wrote: Thank you all for your comments. It really appreciate them all. I think if there's going to be nudity then an escort, no nudity no escort unless I'm travelling pretty far. I'm going to stick to this
Here is my question, why would your escort polocy be based on your nudity level? I believe you should personally do what you wish however what this 'rule' would look like to a photographer is that you don't trust photographers who shoot nude and would therefor need 'protection'. Are nude photographers more dangerous than non nude shooters just because of the genre of work they shoot? Would a photographer even want to hire a model who is potentially nervous about shooting nude (it will show in the photos), etc..
Imho you will most likely start to attract only the shady GWC's who want to hire you for clothing shoots so you will show up without an escort and try to convince you to get naked.
Whatever you do, make sure to check references! This is the best way to see weather a photographer is professional and trustworthy.
I think just the word "escort" is so highly charged, you should specify what you desire. If someone is going to drive you to a shoot, say "hello" and then go out to get himself a cup of coffee during the actual shoot, most photographers would not mind at all.
If you wish for the person to be sitting there watching the entire process, many would find that bothersome and they should know this upfront.
I'm pretty new to llamaling but I've always taken an escort with me. I had a shoot booked, one where I was doing llamaling I wasn't completely comfortable with. I said I was bringing an escort and the photographer cancelled the shoot. Said it affected the creativity between photographer and llama. He wanted me to do beauty nude photos, not something I've ever considered doing but I thought it would be good for experience and my portfolio as it was TFP shoot. Then I found out he wanted full frontal nudes for free!! He has good references on his page. Any advice is it not ok to bring escorts and about nudity for free
I've had plenty of experienced art llamas work TFP with me -- including GASP the dreaded and decidedly dangerous fullfrontalnudity!!!11!
--
All kidding aside…
…there's an attitude that "you're giving it away for free" if you pose nude in exchange for non-monetary consideration. It's constantly perpetuated in these forums and it's wrong, IMHO.
Sure, there are plenty of male (and female) photographers (aka GWCs), whose sole interest is to see some skin. Those are the sort of people who are going to provide you with uniformly awful photos and you should probably ask for pay, as you're not going to any other benefit.
You won't get quality, paid gigs with a crappy book…
There are also fantastically talented photographers who are interested in making art. Unfortunately, art photography and particularly art nude photography doesn't earn much income in this digital day and age… (but there's no need for a sob story about how expensive photography is… especially since I do pay llamas…)
If you're in it for the art, money is secondary… if you're in it for the money, then art is not the first place I'd suggest looking. --
On top of that, I don't think it's reasonable to expect "market rates" for your first-ever art nude shoot. If you have no idea what you're doing, or are less than comfortable with the idea (which always, always shows on-camera), why should an experienced (an assumption based on the fact that he has good references) art photographer pay you while you learn how to pose nude?
--
As for chaperones -- I allow them (but not "bodyguards," "security," or "protection"), but I've also had shoots that were basically hamstrung because the llama was self-conscious, or the "escort" kept providing "creative input."
If you don't feel safe going to a shoot, don't go to the shoot. --
Personally, I don't like it when the terms of the photoshoot significantly change at the last minute, especially when it's issues that could have been discussed at the outset (wardrobe, compensation, styling, escorts, location, transportation, etc.).
When that's happened, on what I've felt were unreasonable terms, I've usually canceled the shoot.
Gemma Cullen
Posts: 57
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom
Magic Image Photography wrote: To some photographers haveing an "Escort" on the shoot is some times degrading to some. It shows a lack of trust to photographers but then again I see the models point of view as in a safty matters.
This photographer is just out of luck due to him haveing such a gorgeous model to photograph and for tfp and yet pass out on such a wonderful expierance. I think you did the right thing in staying ground and requesting that you keep your escort with you. Belive it is better to be safe than sorry. If your ever in the Los Angeles area and need some creative art works keep me in mind. Escort included.
Thank you for such a nice comment if I'm ever in the Los Angeles area I would love to work with you
It's up to you to do whatever makes you feel comfortable. If it means bringing an escort to a shoot then by all means do so. However, just as you have the right to bring an escort a photographer has the right to not allow escorts at a shoot. In that scenario you both need to find someone else to shoot with.
Gemma Cullen
Posts: 57
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom
Ken Marcus Studios wrote: Why should nudity be for money only ?
Are you a hooker or something ?
Either you enjoy modeling nude or don't do it at all.
Doing something only for the money is distasteful and calls your motives into question.
No nothing like that, I just wasn't aware I would be doing full frontal nudity. I've never done a nude shoot before so it would have been my first time. I've never been completely sure about doing nude work before so I wasn't sure on the ground rules etc. the shoot was for TFP I was more bothered about not being able to take an escort. I wasn't bothered about not being paid. I was just asking for people's opinions.
Some places of business are open to the public and some are for those involved only. Photography is no exception. Some will allow escorts, some will not.
If you receive images in exchange for your time, then it's not modeling for free.
I personally do not follow the correlation you make about escorts, pay and the amount of clothing worn. If it's TF, you either value the images you feel the photographer will provide or you don't. A model can value a nude image just as much as a clothed one.
Greg Kolack
Posts: 17,243
Downers Grove, Illinois, US
Peggy P H wrote: I bring an escort with me to al my shoots, especially the nude ones. I can understand a photographer not wanting one there, as they can be distracting. I made sure to put that in my profile though, and it hasn't cost me any gigs or (as far as I know), gotten photographers to steer clear of me. Just go with what you think is best.
I worded this wrong, I was not aware he wanted be to do full frontal nudity at all.
I think the point that "Supermodel Photographer" was making is that TFP ≠ free.
Free implies that you receive nothing in consideration of your time and talent.
TF* means that the photographer's time and talent, as they are applied to photographing you and processing the resulting images, which will then be provided to you, are what you will receive in compensation.
Gemma Cullen
Posts: 57
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom
DVSmith wrote:
I've had plenty of experienced art models work TFP with me -- including GASP the dreaded and decidedly dangerous fullfrontalnudity!!!11!
--
All kidding aside…
…there's an attitude that "you're giving it away for free" if you pose nude in exchange for non-monetary consideration. It's constantly perpetuated in these forums and it's wrong, IMHO.
Sure, there are plenty of male (and female) photographers (aka GWCs), whose sole interest is to see some skin. Those are the sort of people who are going to provide you with uniformly awful photos and you should probably ask for pay, as you're not going to any other benefit.
You won't get quality, paid gigs with a crappy book…
There are also fantastically talented photographers who are interested in making art. Unfortunately, art photography and particularly art nude photography doesn't earn much income in this digital day and age… (but there's no need for a sob story about how expensive photography is… especially since I do pay models…)
If you're in it for the art, money is secondary… if you're in it for the money, then art is not the first place I'd suggest looking. --
On top of that, I don't think it's reasonable to expect "market rates" for your first-ever art nude shoot. If you have no idea what you're doing, or are less than comfortable with the idea (which always, always shows on-camera), why should an experienced (an assumption based on the fact that he has good references) art photographer pay you while you learn how to pose nude?
--
As for chaperones -- I allow them (but not "bodyguards," "security," or "protection"), but I've also had shoots that were basically hamstrung because the model was self-conscious, or the "escort" kept providing "creative input."
If you don't feel safe going to a shoot, don't go to the shoot. --
Personally, I don't like it when the terms of the photoshoot significantly change at the last minute, especially when it's issues that could have been discussed at the outset (wardrobe, compensation, styling, escorts, location, transportation, etc.).
When that's happened, on what I've felt were unreasonable terms, I've usually canceled the shoot.
This was TFP shoot, I had said at the beginning about bringing an escort but it wasn't mentioned by him, so I confirmed the shoot and asked what was to be expected from me nudity wise and again said I was bringing an escort. He then said no to the shoot. I did not want any cash payment I was happy with TFP but was not aware of the full frontal nudity. I didn't change anything last minute, I just wanted to confirm details
Greg Kolack
Posts: 17,243
Downers Grove, Illinois, US
Gemma Cullen wrote: Then I found out he wanted full frontal nudes for free!! He has good references on his page. Any advice is it not ok to bring escorts and about nudity for free
Every single nude shot on my portfolio was a TFP shoot.
Most models I know who model regularly don't charge different rates depending on if they are wearing clothes or not. They charge to model, or they do TF depending on what the reason it would benefit them is.
It comes of as "you got to see me nude, so you should pay me."
Gemma Cullen
Posts: 57
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom
Abbitt Photography wrote: Some places of business are open to the public and some are for those involved only. Photography is no exception. Some will allow escorts, some will not.
If you receive images in exchange for your time, then it's not modeling for free.
I personally do not follow the correlation you make about escorts, pay and the amount of clothing worn. If it's TF, you either value the images you feel the photographer will provide or you don't. A model can value a nude image just as much as a clothed one.
I don't either,I worded it wrong. The photographer did not explain to me he wanted full frontal nudity. I would have said no straight away to the shoot if I knew that. I was happy with TFP.
Gemma Cullen
Posts: 57
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom
Greg Kolack wrote:
Every single nude shot on my portfolio was a TFP shoot.
Most models I know who model regularly don't charge different rates depending on if they are wearing clothes or not. They charge to model, or they do TF depending on what the reason it would benefit them is.
It comes of as "you got to see me nude, so you should pay me."
I didn't mean for it to come off that way. I just wasn't sure of what other models did with reference to nudity or no nudity. I have never done a nude shoot before. I was just not made aware that full frontal nudity was part of the shoot otherwise I would not have agreed to the shoot in the first placev
The shoot was for TFP, not money, but I wasn't aware it was full frontal nudity. Never done a nude shoot before. I wasn't asking for payment
Paid or not, escort or not, communication before shooting is KEY. I would never wait until the shoot to tell someone I wanted nudes. Not knowing the photographer, it just seems like there was a communication breakdown. You are better off that he cancelled, IMO.
Greg Kolack
Posts: 17,243
Downers Grove, Illinois, US
Gemma Cullen wrote: I didn't mean for it to come off that way. I just wasn't sure of what other models did with reference to nudity or no nudity. I have never done a nude shoot before. I was just not made aware that full frontal nudity was part of the shoot otherwise I would not have agreed to the shoot in the first placev
I understand. Just pointing out that many models don't think differently about whether it is nude or not, and you should be careful to not present yourself that way.
I do give you credit for taking advice here under consideration and for taking it to heart. It shows you are interested in learning and progressing. Good for you.
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