Steve Arebalo wrote: It is not unusual for a few of them to ask for a modest kit fee $25-$35 and images. However most of their ports are high quality.
Dude, I feel bad for you. You got scammed.
The kit fee is television/motion picture specific because of the long hours they put in & the need to replenish application for those (moving) cameras.
Well damn this has been an eye opener! Thanks all much for being so honest and weighing in.
I definitely do not want to insult anyone, period the end. So my new approach will be:
1) Research photographer via Mayhem and all usual web outlets.
2) Contact 1 or 2 listed collaborations via email
3) Then if all looks good head to the shoot with no worries
4) I will request this at the shoot:
I would like for you to share with me all of the photos you will be giving the model at the same time.
5) if said photographer flakes in getting me the images, I will just chalk it up to a day of "testing" and email said photographer every 30 days after the first 60 have passed to be a torn in his or her side
I and many othes look to build a relationship with my creative team, I may have a couple of MUA, Stylists, Hair, etc. just in case someone is booked but that is about it. I won't fill out lengthy emails and forms.
I expect to be able to call people and talk about our ideas If its a creative or a test it should not matter and your first suggestd post would just make me click next. It does not sound like someone who wants to collaborate, it sounds like a work for hire gig
I understand where you’re coming from, and I know that you’re just trying to protect yourself from being scammed again..
Actually your expectation of 2-3 finished photos is eminently reasonable, as is the 45-60 day time frame.
There are models who expect dozens of finished photos from a shoot. There are others who expect the photographer to give them a CD with all the unedited and unretouched images at the end of the shoot. I won’t work with them.
Apparently they don’t realize that, while it’s all over for the model (and the other team members) at the end of a shoot, the photographer’s work is just beginning.
I literally spend more hours reviewing each image from a shoot and deciding which ones to retouch than I do shooting. I just started using Photoshop around the end of September, and I’m not the fastest by far. Also, I’m very picky about retouching. For those reasons, I spend a lot more time retouching than shooting - and a lot more time per hour of shooting than most photographers on MM.
I will not give out unedited photos. It’s been in my profile since Day 1. There have been too many stories about poorly retouched photos (that should have been outtakes) turning up on Facebook and other places and credited to the photographer. When a photographer loses control of his images, he also loses control of HIS image.
But there is just something about signing something legalistic (especially something that could lead to future liability) for a TF shoot that rubs people the wrong way.
There have been photographers and models who have tried requiring each other to put up a deposit before a TF shoot to prevent flaking and/or nondelivery of photos. Apparently those who have tried it have found that this prevented the scammers (and everybody else) from working with them.
I think the vast majority of photographers have had models flake (some say their flake rate is as high as 50%) or in some cases not pay for booked time for a paid shoot, which in some cases leads to the photographer being stuck with studio rental, MUA and stylists fees). There always seems to be at least one active forum thread about flaky models (or photographers). There are two at the moment.
But when those who don’t flake get distrust from others, that also rubs people the wrong way.
Despite the fact that there are those who like to brag that they’ve been on MM for seven years and never had a model flake (or whatever), the fact is that anybody here can be scammed at any time. It’s unfortunate, but it’s pretty much a cost of doing business.
For what it's worth, I always send the same images that I send to a model to others involved - at the same time. In fact, there's a hair stylist on MM who has a list with nothing but my photos in it because, he says, I'm the only one who consistently sends him photos.
There are things you can do to reduce the risk – but I don’t think it can ever be eliminated.
By the way, some of the photographers in this thread (Stefano Bruneski, James Ogilvie and Julian Wilde come to mind) are among the best-known and most-respected photographers on MM.
number one. Do not go to MM for testing or work...
Look up your local photographers on line, look at their portfolios, you'll know who can help you and who can't. Look for people with real clients and access to great models. The number will be small...make what I call a hit list. A hit list is a narrow group of working professionals with clients you recognize...forget what they say they do, look at their portfolios (not their client list) You can probably narrow your list down to about 10 to 20 people in your area.
Email these photographers and ask nicely if they ever do testing as you love their work and would really like the opportunity to have their work in your book. When you have a great photographer kiss up.... the rest just forget...keep your eye on the real talent and spend your time where it matters.
Lets say you send 20 emails to your "hit list" expect zero replies... Wait 30 days and send another.. These same 20 people need to get a snail mail card with a great shot of your work, EVERY month. Keep this up and at some point they are going to remember your name. These are very busy people and they aren't going to come to you, be persistent and patient... and DON'T give them conditions and ultimatums...real pros don't need to be told how to treat you, they didn't get where they are by being jerks to others in the industry.
If you're persistent your chance will come...some makeup artist will flake on a job and guess whose card will be at the photographers desk? whose email will be in his inbox with the message subject "makeup artist"? who does he know that's eager enough to drop everything to shoot last minute? YOU!
think about the best photographer in your area - the guy you really, really want to work with. if you had an opportunity to work with him, you'd probably get really great images, your portfolio would improve by leaps and bounds, and you'd start getting more, or better-paying work. right?
now, think about how he's probably got a list of a dozen makeup artists who are dying to shoot with him, because they all realize that same fact about him and his work.
now imagine he has to choose between a makeup artist who wants him to sign paperwork, just in case he decides to not send any photos. already that makeup artist isn't trusting him, right? it's a bad start to the relationship.
or, he could choose to work with the mua who is not only trusting, but also super accomodating, who says something more like, "if you ever need someone last-minute, or if you want an extra makeup artist on hand just in case you have an extra model show up, just call me!"
Mary wrote: number one. Do not go to MM for testing or work...
Look up your local photographers on line, look at their portfolios, you'll know who can help you and who can't. Look for people with real clients and access to great models. The number will be small...make what I call a hit list. A hit list is a narrow group of working professionals with clients you recognize...forget what they say they do, look at their portfolios (not their client list) You can probably narrow your list down to about 10 to 20 people in your area.
Email these photographers and ask nicely if they ever do testing as you love their work and would really like the opportunity to have their work in your book. When you have a great photographer kiss up.... the rest just forget...keep your eye on the real talent and spend your time where it matters.
Lets say you send 20 emails to your "hit list" expect zero replies... Wait 30 days and send another.. These same 20 people need to get a snail mail card with a great shot of your work, EVERY month. Keep this up and at some point they are going to remember your name. These are very busy people and they aren't going to come to you, be persistent and patient... and DON'T give them conditions and ultimatums...real pros don't need to be told how to treat you, they didn't get where they are by being jerks to others in the industry.
If you're persistent your chance will come...some makeup artist will flake on a job and guess whose card will be at the photographers desk? whose email will be in his inbox with the message subject "makeup artist"? who does he know that's eager enough to drop everything to shoot last minute? YOU!
I think you'll cost yourself a lot of work- Even if they DO plan to send you photos on time, they aren't going to want to deal with the drama that comes along with you.
Mary wrote: number one. Do not go to MM for testing or work...
Email these photographers and ask nicely if they ever do testing as you love their work and would really like the opportunity to have their work in your book. When you have a great photographer kiss up.... the rest just forget...keep your eye on the real talent and spend your time where it matters.
If you're persistent your chance will come...some makeup artist will flake on a job and guess whose card will be at the photographers desk? whose email will be in his inbox with the message subject "makeup artist"? who does he know that's eager enough to drop everything to shoot last minute? YOU!
Mary, as usual you give great advice. Everything you laid out for me is brilliant and I am going to take your advice and do everything you suggested. I live near Princeton University. It is a very artsy place to be and we are home to some seriously gifted photographers that I would be honored to be considered by. By following your suggestions it will show them how committed I am and give me a much better shot at reaching my ambitions.
Hugs from a random girl in NJ!
9 months I waited for images from a tf shoot. 2 days ago I finally received them.
I've worked with this photographer numerous times,we got on well, he's good at what he does..but I constantly had to be a thorn in his side to get what I rightfully shouldn't need to keep asking for. And I will never work with him again because of it.
How long is too long to wait?
I kept my part of the deal.
RKD Photographic
Posts: 2,995
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
In all probability, if I asked a MUA for a reference for another MUA, the first one will most likely ask "Why aren't you booking me for this - aren't I good enough or something?" - and then go off into a corner and sulk...
I would welcome something along these lines from a makeup artist. It shows me they are taking the shoot seriously and may actually show up. Can you tell I've been burned by more mua's than I care to remember?
Mary wrote: number one. Do not go to MM for testing or work...
Look up your local photographers on line, look at their portfolios, you'll know who can help you and who can't. Look for people with real clients and access to great models. The number will be small...make what I call a hit list. A hit list is a narrow group of working professionals with clients you recognize...forget what they say they do, look at their portfolios (not their client list) You can probably narrow your list down to about 10 to 20 people in your area.
Email these photographers and ask nicely if they ever do testing as you love their work and would really like the opportunity to have their work in your book. When you have a great photographer kiss up.... the rest just forget...keep your eye on the real talent and spend your time where it matters.
Lets say you send 20 emails to your "hit list" expect zero replies... Wait 30 days and send another.. These same 20 people need to get a snail mail card with a great shot of your work, EVERY month. Keep this up and at some point they are going to remember your name. These are very busy people and they aren't going to come to you, be persistent and patient... and DON'T give them conditions and ultimatums...real pros don't need to be told how to treat you, they didn't get where they are by being jerks to others in the industry.
If you're persistent your chance will come...some makeup artist will flake on a job and guess whose card will be at the photographers desk? whose email will be in his inbox with the message subject "makeup artist"? who does he know that's eager enough to drop everything to shoot last minute? YOU!
The kit fee is television/motion picture specific because of the long hours they put in & the need to replenish application for those (moving) cameras.
How has he been scammed? I personally charge a lot more. As do a significant percentage of mua's.
Darling Kyttie wrote: How has he been scammed? I personally charge a lot more. As do a significant percentage of mua's.
If a person can't use the pics, they should be charging for their time & expenses (or negotiate a lower rate to fit a person's budget. If they're going to do a TF* shoot, they should sacrifice like the rest of us.
Maybe others feel different. I just see the dreaded "kit fee" (outside of the motion picture industry) as being an end-run. Its marketing ploy to make people think that person isn't when they actually are.
Dani Jaye MUArtistry wrote: Yes "so & so" photographer, the project sounds great! Here is what you should know about me:
I never flake. If something changes, you will receive plenty of notice. If I will be 5 minutes late, I call. I bring my full kit just in case you have a vision change and want the most Avant Garde look you can dream up!
Look at more port, if you still have questions I would be happy to provide references and/or more pictures.
**Now for the ugly part of doing business:
I need one reference from a MUA or if no previous MUA, then a model you have worked within the past 6 months.
I require all TFP Photographers to provide me with a signed & dated letter of intent on the date of shooting that basically states that I have worked for you as a makeup artist and that I (said MUA) will accept 2-3 finished pictures from our shoot in lieu of monetary payment.
Should said pics not be provided within 45 days, I (said MUA) will send you a reminder of our agreement and expect them within 60 days of our shoot. If photos are still not provided by day 60, you will be expected to pay my 1/2 day rate of $250.00. No kit fee or travel expenses will be added.
Simply said, I do this to reduce the chances that a photographer will forget to send me the pictures. I work really hard to create a flawless look for the shoot and I simply do not work for free.
Thank you for the chance to work with you!
Dani Jaye
OK, LAY IT ON ME FORUM
Do you love this, hate this? What would you change? 60 days too short? I feel like this may ruffle a few feathers but that's not what I want. I'm just trying to find a way to cover myself. I'd love your feelings on this.
While I do provide happy references, and what you request is something I more or less already guarantee in writing on my TF contracts (usually 2 weeks, not 2 months), I would never commit myself to a financial agreement on a TF project.
Yes, please just do your own homework. Your profile is your first impression. If I see a bunch of hoops to jump through, I am not going to spend the time to decide if I want to jump through them.
I credit those I work with, and expect to be credited, so it is easy enough to follow the bread crumbs and see if that is someone you want to work with.
As for kit fees, sorry, don't do them. If it is my shoot, and I want to pay a MUH, and I can, then we call it what it is. So far, no one has offered me a cleaning and kit fee for the dresses that need to be cleaned and ironed before and after the shoot, nor the various accessories that are used up, lost or destroyed during the shoot.
Melanie Mills MUA wrote: 9 months I waited for images from a tf shoot. 2 days ago I finally received them.
I've worked with this photographer numerous times,we got on well, he's good at what he does..but I constantly had to be a thorn in his side to get what I rightfully shouldn't need to keep asking for. And I will never work with him again because of it.
How long is too long to wait?
I kept my part of the deal.
Mary, as usual you give great advice. Everything you laid out for me is brilliant and I am going to take your advice and do everything you suggested. I live near Princeton University. It is a very artsy place to be and we are home to some seriously gifted photographers that I would be honored to be considered by. By following your suggestions it will show them how committed I am and give me a much better shot at reaching my ambitions.
Hugs from a random girl in NJ!
Random girl in NJ,
Before you put any money into a photo card to send, run the photo by me...it's important the shot be the right one. You don't want anyone remembering your name for the wrong shot. Feel free to email.
Mary wrote: These same 20 people need to get a snail mail card with a great shot of your work, EVERY month.
This is one of the best things to take away from all this. And it's applicable to getting recognized by anyone in this electronic era, because *nobody* does it anymore. There's something tangible and real about getting a card in the normal US mail (particularly if it includes a memorable image) that you remember.
Random girl in NJ,
Before you put any money into a photo card to send, run the photo by me...it's important the shot be the right one. You don't want anyone remembering your name for the wrong shot. Feel free to email.
Mary,
Thank you for offering to advise me on my photo card, that is really nice and I will take you up on your kind offer. I have 3 looks coming from a Modern Bride shoot any day so I have high hopes. I will show you them when they arrive. Until then I'll keep shooting as much as possible.
Thanks
Jenni Defalco
Posts: 454
Stevenage, England, United Kingdom
This is why i very rarely test with new photographers and models from MM, I've been burned many times...over 10 this year and its so frustrating so i totally gree where the OP is coming from. I think the whole industry has changed with the internet and sites like this. Although its great for newbies developing a portfolio it also brings alot of flakes and is not good for the professionals out there. If you need a contract like that you shouldn't be working with these people, just send them your rates.
I have a small network of passionate photographers and art students who i have met over the years, Some from MM, Some i've researched and contacted directly. These people are my friends and i can trust them, I have no written agreement with them and always get what i'm worth when testing.
I have recently tried bookings tests with new models and photographers from this site and have been let down on every test i have tried arranging and its cost me alot taking days off work. I now cannot be bothered to find new people to test with,its too much stress so everyone here gets my rates!
I usually get chatting with photographers on paid jobs and if i like their work i will offer to test when they are avalible, tends to lead to more paid work too which is always good and i know they are real professionals! x
Dani Jaye MUArtistry wrote: Yes "so & so" photographer, the project sounds great! Here is what you should know about me:
I never flake. If something changes, you will receive plenty of notice. If I will be 5 minutes late, I call. I bring my full kit just in case you have a vision change and want the most Avant Garde look you can dream up!
Look at more port, if you still have questions I would be happy to provide references and/or more pictures.
**Now for the ugly part of doing business:
I need one reference from a MUA or if no previous MUA, then a model you have worked within the past 6 months.
I require all TFP Photographers to provide me with a signed & dated letter of intent on the date of shooting that basically states that I have worked for you as a makeup artist and that I (said MUA) will accept 2-3 finished pictures from our shoot in lieu of monetary payment.
Should said pics not be provided within 45 days, I (said MUA) will send you a reminder of our agreement and expect them within 60 days of our shoot. If photos are still not provided by day 60, you will be expected to pay my 1/2 day rate of $250.00. No kit fee or travel expenses will be added.
Simply said, I do this to reduce the chances that a photographer will forget to send me the pictures. I work really hard to create a flawless look for the shoot and I simply do not work for free.
Thank you for the chance to work with you!
Dani Jaye
OK, LAY IT ON ME FORUM
Do you love this, hate this? What would you change? 60 days too short? I feel like this may ruffle a few feathers but that's not what I want. I'm just trying to find a way to cover myself. I'd love your feelings on this.
I don't have a particular problem with your requirements, as long as you agree to pay the same $250 if you are more than an hour late. If I'm bringing in a top flight MUA ($250 is a LOT of money in my market) then the shoot depends on that person's presence. And, if someone feels they can't trust me, why should I trust them.
As an additional note, a photographer can send you images any time they choose. Waiting might be the difference between crap and something amazing. That said, 45 days is not at all unreasonable.
ArtistryImage
Posts: 2,377
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Jenni Defalco wrote: ...I usually get chatting with photographers on paid jobs and if i like their work i will offer to test when they are available, tends to lead to more paid work too which is always good...
tenured wisdom... better known as strategic networking within the industry.... works extremely well for me, albeit creative testing is now a rare event in my itinerary...
to the OP... after reviewing your "List" Photos that have me smitten probably won't be inclined to test with you... less than 10% are looks that one needs in a commercial book and/or for an on-line marketing presence... editorial pays little if at all... clean beauty and bridal pays... might be wise to understand your potential client base...
Find a review of a talent's "Lists" typically reflects their perceived visual statement... thus it may be possible to comprehend who is on a commercial trajectory...
tenured wisdom... better known as strategic networking within the industry.... works extremely well for me, albeit creative testing is now a rare event in my itinerary...
to the OP... after reviewing your "List" Photos that have me smitten probably won't be inclined to test with you... less than 10% are looks that one needs in a commercial book and/or for an on-line marketing presence... editorial pays little if at all... clean beauty and bridal pays... might be wise to understand your potential client base...
Find a review of a talent's "Lists" typically reflects their perceived visual statement... thus it may be possible to comprehend who is on a commercial trajectory...
Is this to say just because I have a list of random pictures that catch my eye that said list will detract most photographers from working with me as a MUA?
You say you never flake, and seem to expect photographers to take your word on that and accept the risk that you'll make good on your word, but clearly you are not willing to do the same.
There's no way I'd go through all that for a TF shoot, much easier to pass in favor of someone else. I expect many other photographers would feel the same.
"Look at more port" should be "my" instead of "more".
I think you get the point. I would be happy to sign a gently worded contract that doesn't include charging me for a tf shoot. I would suggest discussing these details before hand, so no one is surprised, and keep your contract simple, kind, and to the point.
Maybe leave a blank spot so the photographer can fill in when they intend to give you the photos by, or alter it to suit each photographers plan. Avoid ultimatums, they make me sad. And discuss what each photographer means by TF. You may be short changing yourself with the 2 images. I would leave it more general and include all your contact info on your contract. Don't forget to make 2 copies so they get to keep one too.
I got a bit of drama from your post too, just so you know. I've hired my MUAs so maybe I don't have the right experience to have an opinion.
One thing you should ask for is to be sure you get head shots appropriate for a MUA portfolio. That can be forgotten in the heat of battle on a photographer's concept. So ask the photographer to please take a few shots just for you. It will only take a minute or so per look but if you don't do that you'll be hoping to accidentally get a shot you can use. -- John ==
--- And since you are in Princeton, let's talk :-) ---
DanaBarrett Photography wrote: I think you get the point. I would be happy to sign a gently worded contract that doesn't include charging me for a tf shoot. I would suggest discussing these details before hand, so no one is surprised, and keep your contract simple, kind, and to the point.
Maybe leave a blank spot so the photographer can fill in when they intend to give you the photos by, or alter it to suit each photographers plan. Avoid ultimatums, they make me sad. And discuss what each photographer means by TF. You may be short changing yourself with the 2 images. I would leave it more general and include all your contact info on your contract. Don't forget to make 2 copies so they get to keep one too.
Or just go with word of mouth. good luck
I appreciate your feedback and suggestions. Thank you
RiverGrizzly wrote: I got a bit of drama from your post too, just so you know. I've hired my MUAs so maybe I don't have the right experience to have an opinion.
One thing you should ask for is to be sure you get head shots appropriate for a MUA portfolio. That can be forgotten in the heat of battle on a photographer's concept. So ask the photographer to please take a few shots just for you. It will only take a minute or so per look but if you don't do that you'll be hoping to accidentally get a shot you can use. -- John ==
--- And since you are in Princeton, let's talk :-) ---
LisaJohnson
Posts: 10,515
Nashville, Tennessee, US
this is the best advice and offer you will get ALL year.
Mary wrote:
Random girl in NJ,
Before you put any money into a photo card to send, run the photo by me...it's important the shot be the right one. You don't want anyone remembering your name for the wrong shot. Feel free to email.
Dani Jaye MUArtistry wrote: Well damn this has been an eye opener! Thanks all much for being so honest and weighing in.
I definitely do not want to insult anyone, period the end. So my new approach will be:
)
Did I miss anything?
Nope, now you have a firm hand, instead of a sharp fang.
PS. your original had venom, not enough bite to take the deadbeat to task. But a mentor of mine always said: "if you can't trust their handshake, you can't trust their contract." --
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