Canada seems to have avoided both slavery and wholesale slaughter of the native people.
I wonder why there is a difference between Canadians and Americans on these issues?
Your holy-er than thou is showing again but you lack of education is showing more.
For starters slavery was in what is now called Canada until the 1830's. So yes you did have slavery. Unless you want to claim Canada did not yet exist as a nation or commonwealth. But then you also claimed in another thread you started last week that Canadians repelled American invaders in the war of 1812 so you recognized Canada at that time in your posting as being "Canada".
So you're trying to have it both ways here it seems which is typical of you. Only TSI spins it better.
Now would you also like to discuss the slaughter of indigenous peoples in "Canada" or retract your entire bogus set of bullshit?
Shon D.- Homme
Posts: 3,074
Virginia Beach, Virginia, US
Stephen Dawson wrote: How did the US go wrong on religion, and how does it return to the ideals of the Founding Fathers?
I mean, they had no problem with discrimination and subjugation, so I'm not really sure if we should hold their ideals in all that high of esteem. I'd say it fits perfectly into the Christian narrative.
Art of CIP
Posts: 21,234
Long Beach, California, US
sublime LightWorks wrote:
Your holy-er than thou is showing again but you lack of education is showing more.
For starters slavery was in what is now called Canada until the 1830's. So yes you did have slavery. Unless you want to claim Canada did not yet exist as a nation or commonwealth. But then you also claimed in another thread you started last week that Canadians repelled American invaders in the war of 1812 so you recognized Canada at that time in your posting as being "Canada".
So you're trying to have it both ways here it seems which is typical of you. Only TSI spins it better.
Now would you also like to discuss the slaughter of indigenous peoples in "Canada" or retract your entire bogus set of bullshit?
Does not authorize *Congress* to concern itself with religion. However, it also does not prohibit other levels of government - state and municipal - from religious expression.
'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion *nor prohibiting the free exercize thereof*'
...
I don't know how things are in your country, but here, subsequent amendments have been interpreted as extending the federal protections to cover state interference as well. Further, I think most states have duplicated the federal religious protections in their own constitutions.
Robert Helm wrote: Sound more like a "might makes right" government rather than a small v large government issue.
You are applying 21 century standards of race and gender relations to people in the 17th and 18th century and that is like using present day standards of medical care to their time period. I doubt that if you were an 18th century wealthy white male your views would be different than they are now. As would mine if I were a slave.
We must evaluate people by the standards of their times not ours and by their standards they were a lot more progressive than they are given credit for.
The 2nd Amendment was written when? In a very different world from today's.
Top Level Studio
Posts: 3,208
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Stephen Dawson wrote:
Canada seems to have avoided both slavery and wholesale slaughter of the native people.
I wonder why there is a difference between Canadians and Americans on these issues?
The first Europeans in what is now Canada did a lot of trade with the natives, primarily for beaver, which is why the beaver is Canada's national animal. They couldn't get enough beaver in Europe anymore.
As well, many of the early arrivals in what is now Quebec Province married native women, since there were very few French women living there at that time. Many Quebecers have some Native ancestry today.
Also, there was no sense of "Manifest Destiny", that the savage natives stood in the way of progress.
Things weren't, and still aren't, perfect, but there was a greater amount of cooperation between Natives and Europeans, especially in Quebec.
One example of how Natives have been successful in Quebec is the airline Air Creebec, possibly the only Native-owned airline in the world. It's wholly owned by the Cree.
studio36uk
Posts: 20,227
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna
Top Level Studio wrote: The first Europeans in what is now Canada did a lot of trade with the natives, primarily for beaver, which is why the beaver is Canada's national animal. They couldn't get enough beaver in Europe anymore....
The European beaver has been extinct for 500 years. There are efforts to introduce Canadian beavers to Europe to re-establish the species, but some people are concerned about beaver dams causing disasters.
One of the scientists in favour of the re-introduction said, "It's a big rodent. It's not Godzilla!".
Slavery in what now comprises Canada existed into the 1830s, when slavery was officially abolished. Some slaves were of African descent, while others were aboriginal (typically called panis, likely a corruption of Pawnee). Slavery which was practiced within Canada's current geography, was practiced primarily by Aboriginal groups. While there was never any significant Canadian trade in African slaves, native nations frequently enslaved their rivals and a very modest number (sometimes none in a number of years) were purchased by colonial administrators (rarely by settlers) until 1833, when the slave trade was abolished across the British Empire.
A few dozen African slaves were forcibly brought as chattel by Europeans to New France, Acadia and the later British North America (see chattel slavery) during the 17th century, but large-scale plantation slavery of the sort that existed in most European colonies in the Americas, from New York to Brazil, never existed in colonial Canada or Newfoundland because the economies were not based on plantation agriculture. The largest industries were based upon the exploitation of natural resources, such as the fur trade. So, while some Canadian slaves performed agricultural labour, most were domestic house servants.
Through the Canadian residential school system, the Christian churches along with state authorities, the judiciary, doctors and the police implemented a policy of genocide against the native population.
OK, dude. Can we agree that Canada 99.9% avoided slavery?
I submit that you are more making my point with your link than proving it wrong.
I take some pride in the fact that slavery in the British Empire was first abolished in Upper Canada by Lieutenant Governor John Graves Simcoe. The Act Against Slavery was passed in 1793, and slavery was totally abolished in Upper Canada by 1810. It would not be until 1833 that slavery was abolished through out the British Empire.
More than 30,00 American slaves reached freedom in Canada through the Underground Railroad.
Simcoe also had the foresight to anticipate American aggression, and he moved the capita; of Upper Canada from Newark, on the Niagara River, to York witch would later be renamed Toronto.
In Ontario we celebrate Simcoe with a holiday in his name every August.
Your holy-er than thou is showing again but you lack of education is showing more.
For starters slavery was in what is now called Canada until the 1830's. So yes you did have slavery. Unless you want to claim Canada did not yet exist as a nation or commonwealth. But then you also claimed in another thread you started last week that Canadians repelled American invaders in the war of 1812 so you recognized Canada at that time in your posting as being "Canada".
So you're trying to have it both ways here it seems which is typical of you. Only TSI spins it better.
Now would you also like to discuss the slaughter of indigenous peoples in "Canada" or retract your entire bogus set of bullshit?
I have conceded that Canada was only 99.9% slavery free. The first act to abolish slavery was passed in Upper Canada in 1793. The Canadian provinces of Upper and Lower Canada were created in 1791.
It is true slavery was not abolished through our the British Empire until 1993, but is was eliminated in Upper Canada no later than 1810.
And more than 30,000 Americans slaves reached Canada and freedom via the Underground Railroad.
It is certainly true that Canada has a terrible history of treatment of our native people. The Religious folk arranged ed to take the children from their "heathen" families to save their souls.
But there were no wholesale slaughters like committed in the US.
The first Europeans in what is now Canada did a lot of trade with the natives, primarily for beaver, which is why the beaver is Canada's national animal. They couldn't get enough beaver in Europe anymore.
As well, many of the early arrivals in what is now Quebec Province married native women, since there were very few French women living there at that time. Many Quebecers have some Native ancestry today.
Also, there was no sense of "Manifest Destiny", that the savage natives stood in the way of progress.
Things weren't, and still aren't, perfect, but there was a greater amount of cooperation between Natives and Europeans, especially in Quebec.
One example of how Natives have been successful in Quebec is the airline Air Creebec, possibly the only Native-owned airline in the world. It's wholly owned by the Cree.
To add to this part of our heritage, the Couruur des bois, French fur traders, integrated with the Native peoples well into the prairies, and the mixed race offspring are known as the Metis.
Fact is what he stated was dead wrong and he knows it. If you want to support these kind of falsehoods, be my guest. I for one will point out an untruth whenever I see, and your opinion of that doesn't mean shit to me.
Art of CIP wrote: Your act is getting really tired... Seriously...
sublime LightWorks wrote: As if I care about what you think.....seriously.
Fact is what he stated was dead wrong and he knows it. If you want to support these kind of falsehoods, be my guest. I for one will point out an untruth whenever I see, and your opinion of that doesn't mean shit to me.
LOL
Dude, you have been slapped. You earned it. You deserve it.
Art of CIP
Posts: 21,234
Long Beach, California, US
sublime LightWorks wrote:
As if I care about what you think.....seriously.
Fact is what he stated was dead wrong and he knows it. If you want to support these kind of falsehoods, be my guest. I for one will point out an untruth whenever I see, and your opinion of that doesn't mean shit to me.
And yet after all of that... Your act is still tired...
Because I don't remember your objections to any of those.....oh wait.....
Those guys are your buddies....that's why. Double standard, seems its "ok" if they are your buds, you have no problem there, even a personal attack that resulted in brig time is fine by you. But if someone posts a barbed objection to an untrue posting, including documentation to it's invalid statements or content, then well we have a problem because that's one of your guys there and we can't allow that now can we? Must silence that at once!!!
Frankly your opinion, objections, and comments mean nothing to me. You don't like that I do a pointed job exposing frauds, tough.
If you're so worried about people stepping over a line, why not send a CAM that Dawson has eight threads on page one? Would give you something constructive to do for a change.
Stephen Dawson wrote: I submit that you are more making my point with your link than proving it wrong.
That would be valid only if you live a perpetually comparative existence, which does indeed seem to be the case. If you weren't constantly comparing Canada to the US, you'd not find your credibility compromised like this.
And yet, it stands that, contrary to your original statement ("wholesale" being an entirely meaningless term in context anyway, and is therefore discarded as such), there *was* slavery in Canada and there *was* slaughter of the native population in Canada.
Because I don't remember your objections to any of those.....oh wait.....
Those guys are your buddies....that's why. Double standard, seems its "ok" if they are your buds, you have no problem there, even a personal attack that resulted in brig time is fine by you. But if someone posts a barbed objection to an untrue posting, including documentation to it's invalid statements or content, then well we have a problem because that's one of your guys there and we can't allow that now can we? Must silence that at once!!!
Frankly your opinion, objections, and comments mean nothing to me. You don't like that I do a pointed job exposing frauds, tough.
If you're so worried about people stepping over a line, why not send a CAM that Dawson has eight threads on page one? Would give you something constructive to do for a change.
Top Level Studio
Posts: 3,208
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
kickfight wrote:
That would be valid only if you live a perpetually comparative existence, which does indeed seem to be the case. If you weren't constantly comparing Canada to the US, you'd not find your credibility compromised like this.
And yet, it stands that, contrary to your original statement ("wholesale" being an entirely meaningless term in context anyway, and is therefore discarded as such), there *was* slavery in Canada and there *was* slaughter of the native population in Canada.
Slavery in Canada had to be at an end, or American slaves would not have been escaping to freedom in Canada via the Underground Railway.
Canada did have slavery, like most countries, but ended it early. However, the Natives had a long history of slavery.
In the Washington Monument not only are numerous Bible verses and religious acknowledgements carved on memorial blocks in the walls, including the phrases: “Holiness to the Lord” (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20), “Search the Scriptures” (John 5:39), “The memory of the just is blessed” (Proverbs 10:7), “May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence,” and “In God We Trust”, but the Latin inscription Laus Deo – “Praise be to God” – is engraved on the monument’s capstone.
Of the five areas inside the Jefferson Memorial into which Jefferson’s words have been carved, four are God-centered, including Jefferson’s declaration that “God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
The Lincoln Memorial contains numerous acknowledgments of God and citations of Bible verses, including the declarations that “we here highly resolve that . . . this nation under God . . . shall not perish from the earth”; “The Almighty has His own purposes. ‘Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh’ (Matthew 18:7)”; “as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said ‘the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether’ (Psalms 19:9)”; “one day every valley shall be exalted and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh see it together” (Dr. Martin Luther King’s speech, based on Isaiah 40:4-5).
In the Library of Congress, The Giant Bible of Mainz and The Gutenberg Bible are on prominent permanent display and etched on the walls are Bible verses, including “The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not” (John 1:5); “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore, get wisdom and with all thy getting, get understanding” (Proverbs 4:7); “What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God” (Micah 6:8); and “The heavens declare the Glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handiwork” (Psalm 19:1).1
The spiritual heritage of the United States of America is obvious. Numerous other of the most important American government leaders, institutions, monuments, buildings, and landmarks both openly acknowledge and incorporate religious words, symbols, and imagery into official venues. Such acknowledgments are even more frequent at the state and local level than at the Federal level, where thousands of such acknowledgments exist.
This will answer your question even more to-the point:
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
Anzhelika Yakimenko wrote: This will answer your question even more to-the point:
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
-Thomas Jefferson
This was lifted from one of his appeals to end slavery. Politicians well know the minds of the masses and how they can manipulate the masses by invoking the name of God. Jefferson was not beyond using the god tool for his ends. If you want to know the mind of Jefferson, though, there are many, many anti-religious quotes from his intimate communications that really should appear on his monument.
Before he got into politics, Lincoln was more free to speak of his skepticism. He was probably a free-thinking deist, but trapped by societal convention. It is the ongoing sad state of affairs in this country that politicians cannot be free and open about their beliefs if they want to get ahead.
Before he got into politics, Lincoln was more free to speak of his skepticism. He was probably a free-thinking deist, but trapped by societal convention. It is the ongoing sad state of affairs in this country that politicians cannot be free and open about their beliefs if they want to get ahead.
COME ON with the speculation, now. We can "guess" at what a man "might" have thought, but we know MANY cases and examples of what he ACTUALLY said and wrote, by his own hand. No guesswork or psyco-analyzing here.
Daniels Light
Posts: 4,911
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
Since Christianity is based on the the teachings of Jewish Rabbi? And as the first Senate was a product of Rome? And the first representative democracy with a strong component of slavery grew in the city states of Ancient Greece? And as the ideals of personal liberty and separation of church and state was a popular topic of the French philosophers of the early 1700s?
Was the US government built on Christian ideals? Depends on how simplistic you want to get.
kickfight wrote: Precisely. Canada *did* have slavery. It did not "avoid slavery" as was claimed.
Stephen Dawson wrote: To be precise, I wrote, "seems to have avoided slavery".
I submit that the nit picking examples of a few exceptions do not invalidate my argument.
Tell you what. We'll just agree that the hordes of colonialist Europeans that invaded your neck of the woods were clearly nicer and more moral than the hordes of colonialist Europeans that invaded the East and South of the United States. And they were all collectively nicer and more moral than the colonialist Europeans that slaughtered and enslaved my Aztec ancestors. Everyone wins!
Top Level Studio
Posts: 3,208
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
kickfight wrote:
Tell you what. We'll just agree that the hordes of colonialist Europeans that invaded your neck of the woods were clearly nicer and more moral than the hordes of colonialist Europeans that invaded the East and South of the United States. And they were all collectively nicer and more moral than the colonialist Europeans that slaughtered and enslaved my Aztec ancestors. Everyone wins!
Hey, that works!
Interestingly, 500 years later, the murder rates in those three areas still seem to reflect those differences.
kickfight wrote: Tell you what. We'll just agree that the hordes of colonialist Europeans that invaded your neck of the woods were clearly nicer and more moral than the hordes of colonialist Europeans that invaded the East and South of the United States. And they were all collectively nicer and more moral than the colonialist Europeans that slaughtered and enslaved my Aztec ancestors. Everyone wins!
Top Level Studio wrote: Hey, that works!
Interestingly, 500 years later, the murder rates in those three areas still seem to reflect those differences.
Neat! Observation of superstitions, both domestic and imported, probably fall in line as well.
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