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Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


P I X I E wrote:

Shelby Carter Model wrote:
I said that already lol...I defined hobbyists twice as exactly what you put.

Let me repeat this:


I can go and get the direct quote from you if you want. Sometimes, it's not what you say, but HOW you say it.

But my post wasn't directed towards hobbyists. It was directed to professional models who want to make modeling their career.

Jun 22 12 07:06 am  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Shelby Carter Model wrote:
Now I remember why I stopped posting on the forums...so many rude people nitpicking and getting offended by words.

There is a difference between "real world" fashion and commercial modeling and hobby modeling. Understand that guys. This industry is brutal. I honestly don't care if what I am saying offends anyone because I am speaking the truth. I have worked for numerous agencies but I have also worked in the beginning of my career with hobby photographers. I am speaking through my experiences with both.

If you aren't getting paid or getting publications and have no goals to become a professional model then you are just a hobbyist. I'm glad that you enjoy what you do. Keep doing it if it is your passion.

But in the real world modeling industry...(and yes I am using the world real because it's the proper term to use in this instance) there is no time for hobbyists. If you're only doing it because you enjoy it then you will get left behind. This industry keeps moving, and won't wait for you. You can't just do it for fun. You do it because you want the fame and fortune.

I'm through explaining myself. Like it or don't. If you're offended maybe you should grow a thicker skin and understand that this is just how it is.

Jun 22 12 07:06 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


P I X I E wrote:

I don't think people like Laura UnBound have thin skin. And it's pretty funny that you say that we get offended and stuff, because well, look at how defensive you get. wink

Just saying.

And I also don't think she got offended by what I said. Again...the post wasn't for hobbyists...

Jun 22 12 07:07 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Shelby Carter Model wrote:
Now I remember why I stopped posting on the forums...so many rude people nitpicking and getting offended by words.

There is a difference between "real world" fashion and commercial modeling and hobby modeling. Understand that guys. This industry is brutal. I honestly don't care if what I am saying offends anyone because I am speaking the truth. I have worked for numerous agencies but I have also worked in the beginning of my career with hobby photographers. I am speaking through my experiences with both.

If you aren't getting paid or getting publications and have no goals to become a professional model then you are just a hobbyist. I'm glad that you enjoy what you do. Keep doing it if it is your passion.

But in the real world modeling industry...(and yes I am using the world real because it's the proper term to use in this instance) there is no time for hobbyists. If you're only doing it because you enjoy it then you will get left behind. This industry keeps moving, and won't wait for you. You can't just do it for fun. You do it because you want the fame and fortune.

I'm through explaining myself. Like it or don't. If you're offended maybe you should grow a thicker skin and understand that this is just how it is.

Jun 22 12 07:09 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


Damianne wrote:

I get paid pretty damn well doing this and only do it because I enjoy it. I don't really want the fame, or the real fortune if it means too much travel or fame.

I'm not offended, you're just not completely accurate with these sweeping generalizations. This is called debate. Methinks the thick skin comment ought to be turned around.

I compiled my generalizations from numerous agency websites...and interviewing photographers and models.

Jun 22 12 07:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J I M
Posts: 524
New York, New York, US


Shelby Carter Model wrote:
Let's talk about getting paid. This is more for models but photographers can chime in too. And mainly I am posting this because I get messages from "models" all the time asking how to get paid.

Ladies and gentlemen, you can't just wake up one day and decide that you want to get paid. If you are not with an agency and you are working as a freelance model then you need to build a portfolio and market the hell out of yourself. Because honestly as models we are a product. But it doesn't just take beautiful images to get to the professional level, and if it was just images then anyone could photoshop themselves and brand themselves a pro. It takes experience, knowledge of posing, being able to express and emote, and being able to inspire who you work with. But not everyone can be a model, you either have "IT" or you don't. And if you have been modeling for years and haven't gotten to the level of pro then maybe you should find another job...that is if a professional model is what your goal career is.
A model will get paid by (a) a photographer who want to improve their skills (b) a photographer that really loves your look and can't live without it in their book (c) GWC's who just want to spend some time with a pretty girl (d) a photographer who wants to hire you for his or her revenue producing project - book, calendar, website, etc (e) a client who hires a model and photographer, and both parties get paid.
There are standards in this industry for a reason. Don't question them or complain that they are there. They won't change for you. Deal with them, understand them, and move on. Because I am 100% sure that there are millions of girls out there who either fall into that standard or don't complain about them. And they WILL get the job before you.
After working with numerous agencies I have compiled a list of general standards
Bikini/Lingerie Glamour Model: 5ft6-5ft8 34"-24"-34" Cup: B to D (Petite, or slender, well proportioned)
Runway Model: 5ft8-6ft Bust 32"-34" waist 22"-26" hips 32"-34" Cup A to C
Catalogue Model: 5ft7-5ft9 Bust 32"-36" Waist 24"-26" Hips 33"-35" Cup A to D
Art Nude Model: 5ft-6ft any size or shape

Let me also add this. Not everyone can be a model or photographer.
A good photographer working with a bad/ugly model just produces good pictures of a bad/ugly model. A good model working with a bad photographer just produces bad images of a good model....

THIS IS NOT GEARED TOWARD HOBBY MODELS OR PHOTOGRAPHERS. THIS IS FOR PROFESSIONAL MODELS WHO WANT TO MAKE MODELING THEIR CAREER.

I did not read through the thread to see how you further 'explain things.' The attitude of your OP is enough to turn me off and not want to read any more from you (I did notice however that you have A LOT of replies for everyone and yes, I am inferring a lot of your 'need for defending' in the need for that...)

Your OP comes off as 'the authoritative statement about the modeling industry.' So since you have a relatively few pics here on MM, I guess I can go to 'a facebook fan page' to see more. Sorry, not a member of that non-professional social networking site.

And it is great that all a potential model has to do is scan your 'stat requirements' to see if they qualify or if they should go to McDs and apply for a fry-dispensing license instead.

And while I am sure there are plenty of kids out there that think a twenty year old knows it all, I think maybe you should cool your tongue and keep your ears (and your mind) open.

And I would love to know how you define a bad/ugly model (or any person for that matter).

And as for your thought process that 'you either have IT, or you don't,' again, thanks for saving so many people so much time with your expertise. I do hope you can continue modeling after you break your leg falling off that high horse you are posing on.

Jun 22 12 07:13 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


jsl wrote:
I did not read through the thread to see how you further 'explain things.' The attitude of your OP is enough to turn me off and not want to read any more from you (I did notice however that you have A LOT of replies for everyone and yes, I am inferring a lot of defending in the need for that...)

Your OP comes off as 'the authoritative statement about the modeling industry.' So since you have a relatively few pics here on MM, I guess I can go to 'a facebook fan page' to see more. Sorry, not a member of that non-professional social networking site.

And it is great that all a potential model has to do is scan your 'stat requirements' to see if they qualify or if they should go to McDs and apply for a fry-dispensing license instead.

And while I am sure there are plenty of kids out there that think a twenty year old knows it all, I think maybe you should cool your tongue and keep your ears (and your mind) open.

And I would love to know how you define a bad/ugly model (or any person for that matter).

And as for your thought process that 'you either have IT, or you don't,' again, thanks for saving so many people so much time with your expertise. I do hope you can continue modeling after you break your leg falling off that high horse you are posing on.

I stand by my statement. I like to see you nitpick though.

No need to bash the fact that I have only 15 pictures and a facebook fanpage. I also have a website and a blog, and a modelwire account. Wanna bash those too? This is my sole job. I am a photographer, model, mua, and a wardrobe stylist. This industry is not just my job but my lifestlye.

Jun 22 12 07:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J I M
Posts: 524
New York, New York, US


Shelby Carter Model wrote:
I stand by my statement. I like to see you nitpick though.

But of course you do...

And I do need to thank you for a reminder why I would never survive as a member of the fashion community. Pretty sure the attitude would drive me crazy by lunch on my very first day.

Jun 22 12 07:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J I M
Posts: 524
New York, New York, US


Shelby Carter llama wrote:
I stand by my statement. I like to see you nitpick though.

No need to bash the fact that I have only 15 pictures and a facebook fanpage. I also have a website and a blog, and a llamawire account. Wanna bash those too? This is my sole job. I am a photographer, llama, mua, and a wardrobe stylist. This industry is not just my job but my lifestlye.

Honey, bashing your fan page was the least of my nitpicking.

Jun 22 12 07:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


jsl wrote:

But of course you do...

Well of course. I stand by the fact that everything I put is just my opinion. I am one person. I stated my opinions based on 16 years of experience in this industry.

I don't think I am always right and some points I made can be debated, because there are always exceptions to the rules of this industry.

Jun 22 12 07:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


jsl wrote:

But of course you do...

And I do need to thank you for a reminder why I would never survive as a member of the fashion community. Pretty sure the attitude would drive me crazy by lunch on my very first day.

I used to cry my eyes out. You would be surprised how uncensored everyone is. But I have learned to live with it. Maybe it has made me a little mean.

Jun 22 12 07:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Shelby Carter Model wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, you can't just wake up one day and decide that you want to get paid.

/thread




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jun 22 12 07:26 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


B R U N E S C I wrote:

/thread




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Yeah I was thinking the same thing..

Jun 22 12 07:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


Shelby Carter Model wrote:
A model will get paid by (a) a photographer who want to improve their skills (b) a photographer that really loves your look and can't live without it in their book (c) GWC's who just want to spend some time with a pretty girl (d) Hobby Photographers who pay models just to shoot OR (e) a client who hires a model and photographer, and both parties get paid.
There are standards in this industry for a reason.

of the (a-b-c-d-e mentioned), only (e) falls into the actual industry.  the vast majority of paid work for models from that (e) segment does not come from the 'net level (a-b-c-d).  the fact is, very few working that level are involved in seeking opportunity through random 'net activity, they are working the hundreds of paid client projects offered on a daily basis through the agency system.

as for a-b-c-d, it is not an industry, it is an activity where some coin can be made for  a small percentage of participants.

here's the analogy in terms of baseball.  the major leagues are the industry, income is derived from outside sources.  beer league softball is the activity, any income is derived from internal sources.  in the major league players are paid day-in, day-out for their work.  in beer league, only the best of the best can position themselves to make some tournament coin that typically comes from other participants in the form of entry fees.

Shelby Carter Model wrote:
But my post wasn't directed towards hobbyists. It was directed to professional models who want to make modeling their career.

point of the above being, while there are opportunities for payment, the 'net (specifically mm) is not a portal for professionals based on industry standards.  it shouldn't even be thought of in the same or equal terms not just for reasons of and for payment, but also the professional standard-of-entry aspect the industry requires.

posting topics such as these work too hard to put square pegs into round holes and often do more harm than the intended good by presenting information that is confusing and easily misunderstood.

Jun 22 12 07:28 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


291 wrote:

Shelby Carter Model wrote:
A model will get paid by (a) a photographer who want to improve their skills (b) a photographer that really loves your look and can't live without it in their book (c) GWC's who just want to spend some time with a pretty girl (d) Hobby Photographers who pay models just to shoot OR (e) a client who hires a model and photographer, and both parties get paid.
There are standards in this industry for a reason.

of the (a-b-c-d-e mentioned), only (e) falls into the actual industry.  the vast majority of paid work for models from that (e) segment does not come from the 'net level (a-b-c-d).  the fact is, very few working that level are involved in seeking opportunity through random 'net activity, they are working the hundreds of paid client projects offered on a daily basis through the agency system.

as for a-b-c-d, it is not an industry, it is an activity where some coin can be made for  a small percentage of participants.

here's the analogy in terms of baseball.  the major leagues are the industry, income is derived from outside sources.  beer league softball is the activity, any income is derived from internal sources.  in the major league players are paid day-in, day-out for their work.  in beer league, only the best of the best can position themselves to make some tournament coin that typically comes from other participants in the form of entry fees.


point of the above being, while there are opportunities for payment, the 'net (specifically mm) is not a portal for professionals based on industry standards.  it shouldn't even be thought of in the same or equal terms not just for reasons of and for payment, but also the professional standard-of-entry aspect the industry requires.

posting topics such as these work too hard to put square pegs into round holes and often do more harm than the intended good by presenting information that is confusing and easily misunderstood.

You said everything I meant to say but got misread and misunderstood.

Jun 22 12 07:32 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Shelby Carter Model wrote:

I compiled my generalizations from numerous agency websites...and interviewing photographers and models.

It shows, it's pretty accurate if you wanted to discuss the limitations and reasoning behind becoming an agency, high profile, fashion model star.
However since you're just talking about becoming PAID, you're pretty off-base and probably need to reconsider either your direction for this whole thread of thought or your assumptions.

Jun 22 12 07:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan K Photography
Posts: 5,409
STATEN ISLAND, New York, US


jsl wrote:
But of course you do...

And I do need to thank you for a reminder why I would never survive as a member of the fashion community. Pretty sure the attitude would drive me crazy by lunch on my very first day.

You got to be kidding me. If the attitude expressed in your original post is the way you are then it is fair to say that you would fit right in. You exhibit the traits you saw in the op 10 fold.

MM is more of a professional site then Facebook. Lol.

There is no large company from model agencies to widget makers that does not have a site on facebook. It is an important part of many professionals marketing and presence on the web.

MM has mostly hobbiests.

Jun 22 12 07:33 am  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Damianne wrote:

It shows, it's pretty accurate if you wanted to discuss the limitations and reasoning behind becoming an agency, high profile, fashion model star.
However since you're just talking about becoming PAID, you're pretty off-base and probably need to reconsider either your direction for this whole thread of thought or your assumptions.

Bam!

Jun 22 12 07:33 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


P I X I E wrote:
Bam!

Jun 22 12 07:36 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Shelby Carter Model wrote:
but the post was geared towards models who want to be an agency, high profile model....

Actually you specifically talk about how you're directing this toward freelance models.
A lot.

All over the place.

Jun 22 12 07:39 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


Damianne wrote:
Actually you specifically talk about how you're directing this toward freelance models.
A lot.

All over the place.

I said models who WANT to be agency, high profile models. This means freelance models who are working to get to the level to be with an agency or to be a high profile model.

Jun 22 12 07:45 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


I guess also what I'm looking for... Okay, so in order to get paid, you must provide something (look/experience/boobies/company/professionalism/....) worth paying for. That's not that hard to figure out.

so perhaps "more helpful" (not saying this wasn't helpful) would be the more practical side of it:

how do you figure out which look you're not onnly suitable for, but works best in your market? can you yourself influence that?

how do you start with getting paid? do you just start charging one day, or do you start by just charging for gasmoney and build up gradually?

how do you determine your starting rate? do you ask the photographer, or compare yourself to other, similar models? or just wait til a photographer makes a suggestion?

how about tf? percentage wise, how much tf do you do compared to paid assignments? when it's someone you'd work with tf, do you still try and quote your rates first?

what to expect when you're paid? do you still get pictures, for instance?

personally, those are the questions I see being asked around here on the fora all the time... I think "you can be paid when someone thinks you have something worth paying for", although not unhelpful, is pretty general advice, but not really dealing with the practical stuff they're trying to figure out.
Jun 22 12 07:45 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Shelby Carter Model wrote:

I said models who WANT to be agency, high profile models. This means freelance models who are working to get to the level to be with an agency

agencies don't work like that. Generally speaking, you either have a look they're interested in or you don't. there are models on here all the time who spent a year and a half trying to "develop their book til it's good enough to show an agency", but that's a waste of time.

Jun 22 12 07:46 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:

agencies don't work like that. Generally speaking, you either have a look they're interested in or you don't. there are models on here all the time who spent a year and a half trying to "develop their book til it's good enough to show an agency", but that's a waste of time.

Oh I know. I walked into my first agency without a book at all and got signed. But you can be a high profile freelance model! Look at Jessica Vaugn. She's worked hard to get to the level she is at.

Jun 22 12 07:50 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:
I guess also what I'm looking for... Okay, so in order to get paid, you must provide something (look/experience/boobies/company/professionalism/....) worth paying for. That's not that hard to figure out.

so perhaps "more helpful" (not saying this wasn't helpful) would be the more practical side of it:

how do you figure out which look you're not onnly suitable for, but works best in your market? can you yourself influence that?

how do you start with getting paid? do you just start charging one day, or do you start by just charging for gasmoney and build up gradually?

how do you determine your starting rate? do you ask the photographer, or compare yourself to other, similar models? or just wait til a photographer makes a suggestion?

how about tf? percentage wise, how much tf do you do compared to paid assignments? when it's someone you'd work with tf, do you still try and quote your rates first?

what to expect when you're paid? do you still get pictures, for instance?

personally, those are the questions I see being asked around here on the fora all the time... I think "you can be paid when someone thinks you have something worth paying for", although not unhelpful, is pretty general advice, but not really dealing with the practical stuff they're trying to figure out.

I actually host a lot of workshops and model bootcamps/classes with the business I own. I go over everything you need to know to be successful. But "how do I get paid?" is the question I get asked the most on facebook.

Jun 22 12 07:52 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Shelby Carter Model wrote:

Oh I know. I walked into my first agency without a book at all and got signed. But you can be a high profile freelance model! Look at Jessica Vaugn. She's worked hard to get to the level she is at.

true... but that has nothing to do with agency. if you don't mean agencies, then don't mention them in your post wink
(this sounds a lot bitchier than I mean it)

Jun 22 12 07:53 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Shelby Carter Model wrote:

I actually host a lot of workshops and model bootcamps/classes with the business I own. I go over everything you need to know to be successful. But "how do I get paid?" is the question I get asked the most on facebook.

aren't all of those questions part of "how do I get paid"?

Jun 22 12 07:53 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:

true... but that has nothing to do with agency. if you don't mean agencies, then don't mention them in your post wink
(this sounds a lot bitchier than I mean it)

lol well I do mean agencies too. and honestly everything has gotten so skewed away from my original post and meaning.

and it's ok smile I understand. that happens a lot around here.

Jun 22 12 07:56 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:

aren't all of those questions part of "how do I get paid"?

They are. I was just putting basics smile

Jun 22 12 07:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FlirtynFun Photography
Posts: 12,871
Houston, Texas, US


Shelby Carter Model wrote:

They are. I was just putting basics smile

Shelby,
in my opinion, for some people, you could walk them into an opportunity, stand them in front of a camera and throw massive amounts of cash at them and they'd still be clueless as to how to get paid.
For others, they not only have looks and talent, but also an ability to market themselves so that they get paid regularly. This doesn't just apply to modeling.

There are a lot of people in between the above scenarios. No matter how you describe it on MM...someone will find a way to bitch about it, find themselves the exception to the rule or get offended that you even brought the subject up.

Jun 22 12 08:03 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


FlirtynFun Photography wrote:

Shelby,
in my opinion, for some people, you could walk them into an opportunity, stand them in front of a camera and throw massive amounts of cash at them and they'd still be clueless as to how to get paid.
For others, they not only have looks and talent, but also an ability to market themselves so that they get paid regularly. This doesn't just apply to modeling.

There are a lot of people in between the above scenarios. No matter how you describe it on MM...someone will find a way to bitch about it, find themselves the exception to the rule or get offended that you even brought the subject up.

it's sad mike hmm

Jun 22 12 08:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FlirtynFun Photography
Posts: 12,871
Houston, Texas, US


Shelby Carter Model wrote:

it's sad mike hmm

Actually it's not...it just weeds out the wanna-be's

Jun 22 12 08:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
howard r
Posts: 467
Los Angeles, California, US


jsl wrote:
I like to see you nitpick though.

lol - sometimes that seems all people on these forums want to do is nitpick and twist things around so they can get all bent out of shape over what an outrageous thing you never actually said.

your op was fine.

Jun 22 12 08:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
howard r
Posts: 467
Los Angeles, California, US


howard r wrote:

lol - sometimes that seems all people on these forums want to do is nitpick and twist things around so they can get all bent out of shape over what an outrageous thing you never actually said.

your op was fine.

ps: you know if a male photographer had said the exact same thing, there would have been 10x more outrage.

the lack of critical reasoning skills here is pretty depressing . . .

Jun 22 12 08:21 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shelby Carter Model
Posts: 124
Houston, Texas, US


howard r wrote:

lol - sometimes that seems all people on these forums want to do is nitpick and twist things around so they can get all bent out of shape over what an outrageous thing you never actually said.

your op was fine.

thank you. I posted this all over my blog and facebook and it would only be model mayhem where people got offended. hmmmm wonder why? lol

Jun 22 12 08:43 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 4,859
Detroit, Michigan, US


Shelby Carter Model wrote:
thank you. I posted this all over my blog and facebook and it would only be model mayhem where people got offended. hmmmm wonder why? lol

Probably because those returning to your FB and blog are people who either generally agree with you anyway, or they are fans who have no idea of the difference.

I have this happen too. I write blog articles too. I happen to have one on the topic you posted here: When & Why Might a Model Be Paid

I share those all over groups on FB and my profile and my page. Everybody generally likes them there because those tend to be people who are in about the same spot I am in terms of the part of the industry and so on, or they are less experienced or new and looking for advice. If I posted them on MM, I can almost guarantee they would be torn apart. There is a much larger range of people here with a bigger variety of experiences. And sometimes you also have people who are bored, looking to prove a point, looking to argue, etc.

Jun 22 12 09:00 am  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Dekilah wrote:
Probably because those returning to your FB and blog are people who either generally agree with you anyway, or they are fans who have no idea of the difference.

I have this happen too. I write blog articles too. I have have one on the topic you posted here: [url=http://www.dekilah.com/2012/05/07/when-why-might-a-model-be-paid/]When
Jun 22 12 09:05 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Tiffiney C
Posts: 568
Los Angeles, California, US


Jeff Fiore wrote:
Hobby llamas aren't looking to make a living with llamaing although if some wants to pay them they won't object. they are in it more for artistic expression - at least the ones I work with.

"Real" llamas as she means are llamas looking to make a living with llamaing

1

Jun 22 12 09:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J I M
Posts: 524
New York, New York, US


I hate to, uh, nitpick, but if people are gonna hit the quote button and say anything about my replies, please make sure you are actually quoting me and not someone else....

js.
Jun 22 12 09:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
G Images
Posts: 253
Lexington, Kentucky, US


Engel Schrei wrote:

A hobbyist is most commonly associated with a GWC in the fact that it's someone who is doing this for enjoyment, rather then trying to make a living with it.

While GWC largely tends to have a negative connotation, it really just means the guys who go buy a camera and just take photos of pretty girls for the sake of hanging out with pretty girls. As a model, a good portion of my income came from GWC type photographers, many of whom just wanted a pretty girl to chat with while they snapped some photos.

A good portion of very talented photographers are "hobbyists", in that photography is not their primary source of income. There are also just as many "hobbyists" who have no real "it" factor as a photographer who just shoot for the fun and sake of hanging with pretty girls.

Getting bent out of shape because she included a term in one area of the sentence rather then another is ridiculous and childish. There is no derogatory intent or negative implication for either "hobbyist" or "GWC" aside from what you personally read into it. If you want to get technical, denotatively any person who takes a photograph is a photographer, and any male who owns a camera is a "GWC", including all the "hobbyists" and "professionals".

Her post was thought out, accurate, valid, and good advice. Stop nitpicking, it's rude and all it does is make you come off as unpleasant to communicate with.

It was not my intention to nitpick. I believed that a distinction between hobbyists and "GWC"s was not addressed and that what was written actually presented a negative connotation of hobbyist photographers. I really don't think it is necessary to call me "childish" for having expressed my opinion. 

I am perfectly willing to accept that you read the OP and interpreted it differently.

Jun 22 12 09:33 am  Link  Quote 
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