I have no way of knowing, but I am at a total loss to come with any other explanation as to his actions with regard to Omar Khadr amd Abousfian Abdelrazik.
Omar Khadr’s American lawyers frustrated Canada won’t let the Gitmo detainee return
The United States is growing frustrated at Canada’s reluctance to follow through on a plea bargain deal and ask for convicted war criminal Omar Khadr to be brought back to Canada, a U.S. military defence lawyer says.
Lt.-Col. Jon Jackson, Khadr’s lead U.S. military lawyer, described the frustration of American officials that he’s spoken with over why Canada has not formally requested that Khadr be transferred to Canada from his U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Comment:
Now Khadr is a Canadian citizen, born in Toronto! I think a government that prevents its citizens from returning home, no matter what they have done, should be charged with a serious crime. Let Canada deal with them, however it is appropriate.
It was only after being ordered by Canada's Supreme Court did Harper allow Abdelrazik to return to Canada. Canada's security agency had long cleared him of any wrong doing.
Stephen Harper and his government is a disgrace to Canada!
Much of the Khadr family is and always has been openly and profoundly disloyal to the nation that shelters and protects them. They've only ever been Canadians of convenience, aiding and abetting terrorism overseas while relying on Canada to give them free health care for their war wounds. Omar Khadr can rot in Guantanamo for the rest of his life as far as I'm concerned.
The disgrace to Canada was in previous governments turning a blind eye to terror organizations like the Tamil Tigers, and PM Chretien's efforts to free Papa Khadr when he was in Pakistani custody, where he should have stayed.
Michael Bots
Posts: 4,090
Kingston, Ontario, Canada
Guilty of war crimes --- Consequences
"Khadr signed a pre-trial agreement, pleading guilty to the charges, and the details of the charges and accepting an 8 year sentence, not including time served, with the possibility of a transfer to Canada after at least one year to serve the remainder of the sentence there,"
"In addition to pleading guilty to throwing a grenade that fatally wounded U.S. Delta Force soldier Christopher Speer during a July 2002 firefight in Afghanistan, Khadr was convicted of attempted murder, conspiracy, spying and providing material support to terrorism."
"In January 2010, the Supreme Court ruled that Khadr's constitutional rights had clearly been violated, but it stopped short of ordering the government to seek his return to Canada."
Average cost to house a male inmate was $109,699 in 2009 (higher in segregation, higher now)
So - we are looking at maybe $1,000,000 to lock this guy up for the remainder of a sentence for a crime he pleaded guilty to. Someone with minimal legitimate employment potential and a family that vocally supported terrorism.
Maybe the government decided this guy would be a bad influence on the other prisoners. Maybe they are being frugal with taxpayers money in the midst of the second worst recession in a century. Maybe they had another reason.
Are you willing to donate to the cost? Or would you rather buy a new subway car?
DevilMayCare Photo wrote: Much of the Khadr family is and always has been openly and profoundly disloyal to the nation that shelters and protects them. They've only ever been Canadians of convenience, aiding and abetting terrorism overseas while relying on Canada to give them free health care for their war wounds. Omar Khadr can rot in Guantanamo for the rest of his life as far as I'm concerned.
The disgrace to Canada was in previous governments turning a blind eye to terror organizations like the Tamil Tigers, and PM Chretien's efforts to free Papa Khadr when he was in Pakistani custody, where he should have stayed.
I suggest you grossly misrepresent the life of Ahmed Said Khadr.
It is a very long article. It even mentions that the Jewish Civil Rights Educational Foundation of Canada came to his defence.
He was an aid worker. Yes he had meetings with powerful Muslims in Pakistan and Afghanistan, including bin Laden. Also he handled money. That seems enough for haters of Fundie Muslims to label him a terrorist.
But Khadr's efforts go back to the time of healing from the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
No evidence has ever been presented that he or Omar had any idea that Sept 11 would happen.
It is a very long article. It even mentions that the Jewish Civil Rights Educational Foundation of Canada came to his defence.
He was an aid worker. Yes he had meetings with powerful Muslims in Pakistan and Afghanistan, including bin Laden. Also he handled money. That seems enough for haters of Fundie Muslims to label him a terrorist.
But Khadr's efforts go back to the time of healing from the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
No evidence has ever been presented that he or Omar had any idea that Sept 11 would happen.
Funny how you rush to the defense here, and yet ridicule any Christian regardless of how strongly they are or are not within their religion. Why? You have many examples of this in your postings. The only difference here is this person supports your view of your government.
Funny how you rush to the defense here, and yet ridicule any Christian regardless of how strongly they are or are not within their religion. Why? You have many examples of this in your postings. The only difference here is this person supports your view of your government.
Ends justify the means?
Tisk tisk.
I did not bring up Ahmed Khadr. I just responded to an inaccurate post.
DevilMayCare Photo wrote: Much of the Khadr family is and always has been openly and profoundly disloyal to the nation that shelters and protects them. They've only ever been Canadians of convenience, aiding and abetting terrorism overseas while relying on Canada to give them free health care for their war wounds. Omar Khadr can rot in Guantanamo for the rest of his life as far as I'm concerned.
The disgrace to Canada was in previous governments turning a blind eye to terror organizations like the Tamil Tigers, and PM Chretien's efforts to free Papa Khadr when he was in Pakistani custody, where he should have stayed.
Canadians and Americans were huge funders of the IRA. I don't remember our governments expressing concern about this from the 70s through 90s. Come to think of it, neither did you.
Michael Bots
Posts: 4,090
Kingston, Ontario, Canada
I would agree that both the wiki articles are accurate.
You did notice that
"In January 2001, Khadr's name was added to a United Nations list of individuals who supported terrorism associated with Bin Laden" that's pre- Sept. eleven
You do realize that bogus charities are a favorite fundraising technique that the Saudi's and others have been fighting for close to 2 decades.
You did notice that the
Jewish Civil Rights Educational Foundation of Canada
wanted him brought to a speedy trial - (not the same as coming to his defense)
It is a very long article. It even mentions that the Jewish Civil Rights Educational Foundation of Canada came to his defence.
He was an aid worker. Yes he had meetings with powerful Muslims in Pakistan and Afghanistan, including bin Laden. Also he handled money. That seems enough for haters of Fundie Muslims to label him a terrorist.
But Khadr's efforts go back to the time of healing from the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
No evidence has ever been presented that he or Omar had any idea that Sept 11 would happen.
He sent his male children to military training camps in Afghanistan, so there's that. Organized against the US and the Northern Alliance during the invasion of Afghanistan. If he was legitimately a humanitarian and a charity worker, he'd have surrendered himself to the US and cooperated in the fight against al Qaeda. But he wasn't, he was a jihadi and always had been.
Canadians and Americans were huge funders of the IRA. I don't remember our governments expressing concern about this from the 70s through 90s. Come to think of it, neither did you.
Wow, have you been keeping tabs on me that long? Huh. Anyway, I have as much contempt for the IRA as I do for any other terror organization.
A person who uses violence or threats to intimidate or coerce for the purpose of advancing a political goal is the simple Websters definition of terrorist. Unfortunately, by that definition, anyone who's ever taken up arms for any cause beyond pure self-defense is a terrorist. I think the definition should include: actors who do not belong to any state-sanctioned military organization, and the deliberate targeting of neutrals or non-combatants.
If a person is determined to win an argument (or keep from losing it, or refrain from conceding a point or acknowledging complexity) there are enough loopholes in that definition that they can fall back on the old "oh but what does any term or definition really actually mean" dodge, but for me it works.
The guards at Gitmo who've seen him for a decade call him "a good kid".
Harper, however, is doing what he wants, even if the rules get in the way.
In a related note, you may have heard that Canadian scientists are now forbidden to speak to the press without a government "minder" to check and approve whatever they say. Wouldn't want anything said that might embarrass the Harper Government, as the Government of Canada now wants to be called.
Stephen Dawson wrote: That was a US military court.
The United Nations does not consider 15 years as being responsible.
What you expect a 15 year old to do when his base is attacked by a foreign army is something I would like to know.
This really is the point. Omar Khadr isn no more guilty of war crimes than the people who were attacking the base he was staying at. The Americans need to get it through their heads that they don't have carte blanche rights to send their goons wherever they want to, and sometimes their goons will get killed.
What needs to happen is for the Americans to drop their charges entirely, since there is no legal basis for them, and release Omar Khadr as a free citizen.
Edit: Harper is just about the worst Prime Minister Canada has ever had. He is a hypocrite and a douchebag.
DevilMayCare Photo wrote: A person who uses violence or threats to intimidate or coerce for the purpose of advancing a political goal is the simple Websters definition of terrorist.
So the Americans who attacked the base where Omar Khadr was staying were terrorists, by your definition, Khadr was defending himself against a terrorist threat, and he is being imprisoned why?
So the Americans who attacked the base where Omar Khadr was staying were terrorists, by your definition, Khadr was defending himself against a terrorist threat, and he is being imprisoned why?
Hey, way to zing me by paraphrasing my own follow up to the sentence you quoted! Crushing.
Khadr is imprisoned because he threw a grenade that killed a medic. What would you suggest, just release him? He still has to be held responsible for his actions.
If US soldiers were the 'terrorists' or 'goons' some call them, they'd have put another round in Khadr right there and been done with it. Instead, the treated his wounds and put him on trial.
Top Level Studio
Posts: 3,208
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
DevilMayCare Photo wrote: Khadr is imprisoned because he threw a grenade that killed a medic. What would you suggest, just release him? He still has to be held responsible for his actions.
If US soldiers were the 'terrorists' or 'goons' some call them, they'd have put another round in Khadr right there and been done with it. Instead, the treated his wounds and put him on trial.
Omar Khadr was a 15-year-old in a battle in which he was very nearly killed.
He has served 10 years so far, and appears to have been a model prisoner. Don't you think that's enough?
Besides, releasing him is not even being discussed. He's been scheduled to be transferred to a Canadian prison, but Harper is stalling the transfer for reasons unknown to the Canadian public.
No, I think he deserves life imprisonment. Let him be a model prisoner until he dies. He was old enough to know what he was doing, and it was high treason.
Top Level Studio
Posts: 3,208
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
DevilMayCare Photo wrote: No, I think he deserves life imprisonment. Let him be a model prisoner until he dies. He was old enough to know what he was doing, and it was high treason.
Treason? You may want to look up the meaning of treason.
"The crime of betraying one's country, esp. by trying to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government."
Taking up arms against a military coalition of which Canada was a part qualifies in my mind.
According to the article 38 of the UN :
"2....persons who have not attained the age of fifteen years do not take a direct part in hostilities.
3. States Parties shall refrain from recruiting any person who has not attained the age of fifteen years into their armed forces. In recruiting among those persons who have attained the age of fifteen years but who have not attained the age of eighteen years, States Parties shall endeavour to give priority to those who are oldest."
He was fifteen, so it's kind of a grey area. But for the sake of argument, I'll concede that he was a child soldier - being a child soldier doesn't absolve him from consequences for his actions. He may be entitled to some special consideration not due your average Taliban or al Qaeda member, but I still believe he should serve life imprisonment, although perhaps with possibility of parole someday.
Top Level Studio
Posts: 3,208
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
DevilMayCare Photo wrote: "The crime of betraying one's country, esp. by trying to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government."
Taking up arms against a military coalition of which Canada was a part qualifies in my mind.
We can be pretty sure that Omar's father (a pretty bad guy in anybody's books) had him convinced that he was fighting to defend his country against invading Americans.
I'm no Taliban supporter, but this kid was caught in a situation that he couldn't leave. It's not like he signed up for duty. He was in that family in that situation since he was born. Did you read the Wiki page on Omar Khadr?
Yes. I've followed the issue closely since it first hit the headlines. I still maintain Khadr is responsible for his actions. He could have chosen to surrender and to not throw that grenade, but he didn't. He made his choice, and he can live with the consequences.
Top Level Studio
Posts: 3,208
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
DevilMayCare Photo wrote: Yes. I've followed the issue closely since it first hit the headlines. I still maintain Khadr is responsible for his actions. He could have chosen to surrender and to not throw that grenade, but he didn't. He made his choice, and he can live with the consequences.
Surrender? The building was blasted flat, with him in it.
I doubt you would have been brave enough to raise your hands and walk out in front of a hundred angry American soldiers who had just seen some of their buddies blown away.
DevilMayCare Photo wrote: So you'd throw a grenade? He was too scared to yell "Don't shoot, I give up!" but not too scared to keep fighting? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Do you think that Omar was told by adults that if he yelled, "Don't shoot, the invaders would do as he asked"?
Or is it not more likely that he was told that the invaders would kill everybody?
Clearly you are not capable of understanding the situation that the 15 year old boy was in.
I understand all of that. But it doesn't excuse what he did. There are a lot of people rotting in jails all over the world who grew up in bad families, made the best of the bad choices available, committed crimes while underage and faced harsh justice. If he was born into a mafia family and killed a DEA agent who was raiding his house, we would let him free because gee whiz, he's just a kid and his dad was a bad influence? There's a point where even children are expected to accept responsibility for their actions, and Khadr is no different.
DevilMayCare Photo wrote: I understand all of that. But it doesn't excuse what he did. There are a lot of people rotting in jails all over the world who grew up in bad families, made the best of the bad choices available, committed crimes while underage and faced harsh justice. If he was born into a mafia family and killed a DEA agent who was raiding his house, we would let him free because gee whiz, he's just a kid and his dad was a bad influence? There's a point where even children are expected to accept responsibility for their actions, and Khadr is no different.
I don't think anyone is trying to excuse him of his crimes. I think most are just trying to put them in context. It was a war environment, he was under the impression, as many were, that an illegal war was underway, and he may or may not have engaged in the confessed acts defensively (the confession being questionable because it was negotiated in exchange for a release from indefinite detention and with the strong possibility of returning to his homeland).
DevilMayCare Photo wrote: I understand all of that. But it doesn't excuse what he did.
He was a soldier in an army defending his position against an invading force. During the course of this defense, he killed/wounded enemy soldiers who were invading the country he was defending, and the base he was stationed at.
What he did is what any soldier should have done, and what any soldier would have done, given the same set of circumstances, no matter whose country's rag he displayed on his sleeve.
AdelaideJohn1967
Posts: 10,756
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Stephen Dawson wrote:
I have never been able to figure out the rules for deciding who are terrorists and who are freedom fighters.
WELL CONSIDER THIS.
In the 1980s the Mujahadeen were fighting off the Russians and the West viewed them as the good guys for the most part. Turn that around some 20+ years later and the same group is now the "bad guys.."
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