I am at an event tonight and had the "official" photographer approach me and tell me I better not be selling anything I shoot here... if I do he is gonna "sue my ass"... I was like WTF...
Spirit Wind Designs wrote: I am at an event tonight and had the "official" photographer approach me and tell me I better not be selling anything I shoot here... if I do he is gonna "sue my ass"... I was like WTF...
Spirit Wind Designs wrote: I am at an event tonight and had the "official" photographer approach me and tell me I better not be selling anything I shoot here... if I do he is gonna "sue my ass"... I was like WTF...
Are you asking if we've had that specific experience or if we've ran into douchebags before? No on the first, definitely on the second.
Depending on his contract, he may have been commissioned to be an exclusive shooter at the event. The contract may have also stipulated that no other professional photographers would be allowed to shoot the event.
Point is, you don't know.
The other point is, he may have just been an ass and swinging his big... eh... lens around.
One day is picture day. If you show up there shooting each kid over the hired guy's shoulder, I imagine there would be words. Even though he's doing it in a public park. He might have no actual rights, but he'll sure make you think he does.
I think what matters more is what you signed with the event to gain access. His agreement with the promoter/event is with them not you and unless there is something in the credentials agreement I doubt he would have grounds as you are not a party to his "Contract"
When I shot for a local newspaper, I occasionally had event photographers get territorial with me, but most of them calmed down when they found out I wasn't direct competition. A few were still annoyed that event photos were for sale through the newspaper's website. No one threatened legal action, even before they learned of my media status.
And when I freelanced shooting high school sports, I didn't catch much -- if any -- flak from studios that had contracts with the schools, even though families tended to buy more of my action images than those from the studios. But the studios concentrated more on team and individual portraits than action shots, though they did get action shots for the yearbooks.
I even took alternative team photos on the same field and same day that the studio took official team shots for the yearbook and for sale to parents. As long as I wasn't shooting over the guy's shoulder, they didn't care.
As for that rodeo, I'd check with the event's organizers to find out how restrictive they are of the exclusive contract they've got with that other photographer.
pacman829 wrote: He could try to sue all he wants,... but he has no grounds to do so
And you base this on what legal experience?
First of all, people can sue for whatever they want. We live in an extremely litigious society and finding a scumbag ambulance chaser to take the case is pretty easy.
But if the guy has a legal contract to be the official event photographer and there is a notice posted somewhere that all photographic rights belong to the event on a professional level, there is certainly some merit to filing a lawsuit.
Now, this gets back to damages. Is someone REALLY going to sue you because you sold an 8X10 off Smugmug? Pretty unlikely. Personally, I just think you ran into someone still tasting the urine from his bowl of Cheerios someone pissed in that morning. I run into clowns like this in nightclubs all the time. I even know most of these asshats by name now.
I'm occasionally hired by private event companies to shoot their parties in clubs and they get me written permission by the management to shoot all I like, in spite of the fact that they have an in-house photographer who never takes his settings off the green box. One of my favorite times I had such a run in was at a major club here in Vegas. The in-house guy never gave me any grief but a fauxtographer at the adjacent party was throwing tantrums. Evidently next to us was a private party for Vivid and he was thinking I was shooting all the porn stars without his permission. This guy looked like a low-rent Terry Richardson and approached me all guns a'blazin. I exchanged a few words and told him he needed to chill so he walked away. The next day I was shooting a pool party for the same client and low and behold the Vivid group was there too in the next cabana (we had three). Our dialog was something like this:
HIM: You need to stop taking pictures RIGHT FUCKING NOW or I'm going to have you thrown out of the party immediately and I'm gonna sue your ass
ME: Go ahead. I have written permission by [club manager] to shoot all I want out here. (As soon as I said that I picked up my camera and took a shot right in front of him. It's important to note that the same company who owns the club, runs the huge casino pool area, so it's the same management)
HIM: I don't care what you have. I run photography in this place, not you.
ME: Dude, you're a hired photographer just like me. The only thing you run here is your mouth.
HIM: STOP TAKING PHOTOS OR WE'RE GOING TO FUCKING SUE YOUR ASS!
ME: OK, at this point, I'm going to tell you that anything you say to me will be answered ONLY by the following three words, Go - Fuck - YOURSELF. (snapped another shot)
HIM: Dude, I'm so going to have you bounced from here!
ME: Go - Fuck - Yourself
At this point he then tried blocking my shots. Just to clarify, this particular client of mine was TheDirty.com. If you aren't familiar with that website, all those guys do is publicly humiliate people. It's what they do best. They're kind of a low-rent Don Rickles who target frat and sorority members and club goers. So when he tried to block my shots, I took a big step back and started shooting him directly. I got about 20 or 30 shots of him being a douche. As soon as I did, he picked up his phone and called the hotel and asked for security. They came over and asked our group what was going on. I explained what was happening, showed them the letter I had from Management, and they went over to the douchebag and told him that he needed to mellow out.
I then told the guys from TheDirty what he was doing and they thought it was so funny they asked me to go get more of him so I did. All day, every time I saw this weasel I started shooting him. And when I did, he called security who promptly told him to stop calling them. We were actually wondering if Vivid was getting pissed at him or not because he never picked up his camera...he was more concerned with me possibly shooting one of his people than he was with covering his own event. Classic. Here is the guy in question. The douchebag is on the phone and the guy on the right is Tristan from TheDirty.com. He thought it was so funny, he wanted to get in on a shot with the guy.
The best part of all of this was the next day. I sent over all my photos from the weekend that night and in their post-weekend write-up, they featured the above photo first and just started trashing this guy all over the place. Classic payback!
I had a douchebag tell me if I media credentials one time. I told him I had credentials up the ass. He turned back to what he was doing. It was a good bluff!
pacman829 wrote: He could try to sue all he wants,... but he has no grounds to do so
Maybe not so. If the promoter sold him the rights to sell photos from the show and gave him exclusive rights then he could sue and win. If the tickets or signs or notices said no commercial photos should be taken or the like then he has a better case.
You take photos at an NFL game and try to sell them, they'll hand you your ass.
You may have a right to take the photo, but you have very little rights to sell any of them. Especially if you paid to get in to where you are photographing what's going on. Your ticket gives you the right to look, not to shoot.
ME: OK, at this point, I'm going to tell you that anything you say to me will be answered ONLY by the following three words, Go - Fuck - YOURSELF. (snapped another shot)
HIM: Dude, I'm so going to have you bounced from here!
ME: Go - Fuck - Yourself....
I'm sure someone will chime in with some diatribe about how you should have walked away and you could get sued, bla, bla
…but I love it:)
I have ran into guys like this… my response has been similar….and I’ve handed them our attorney’s card and tell them “you go call your guy and tell him to call mine – now fuck off before I have you arrested for assault (if they've been getting in my face)”
Spirit Wind Designs wrote: I should add this is a public sporting event...
Tell him to go pound sand, pavement, grass or anything else he can wall on. Unless he can provide some agreement between him and the place holding the event not much he can do, other than cry a lot.
White Lace Studios wrote: I'm sure someone will chime in with some diatribe about how you should have walked away and you could get sued, bla, bla
…but I love it:)
I have ran into guys like this… my response has been similar….and I’ve handed them our attorney’s card and tell them “you go call your guy and tell him to call mine – now fuck off before I have you arrested for assault (if they've been getting in my face)”
My all time favorite of these was when I was in college. I don't even remember the circumstance of what spurred this on, but I was with a friend of mine from when I was in high school. We were out and about doing something and got into some argument with some idiot who said to my friend, "If you do X, I'm gonna sue your ass!"
My friend replied with, "Go ahead and sue to your hearts delight. Seriously, I want you to sue me. Before you think about that though, let me give you the name of my attorney so it's easier for you to file your suit. It just so happens to be my father, Oscar Goodman. Feel free to call his office and tell him you're suing me and see how far that goes." The angry guy just turned and walked away. The person I was hanging out with was Oscar Goodman Jr. For those of you who don't know who his father is, he was the attorney who defended all the Vegas mafia bosses during the 70s and 80s. He even had a cameo in the movie Casino because of this, and he later became the most popular mayor in the history of Las Vegas a few years later. Classic.
First I know nothing about rodeos (although one of my college roomates was dating a girl from Pampa).
I do know that...
For many years, Major League Baseball teams had a notice printed on the back of every ticket to the effect that MLB and the home team owned the copyrights to all photos taken at games, unless otherwise agreed (i.e., the photographer was accredited by MLB or the home team).
At many rock concerts I've attended, there was a "rule" against taking cameras or recorders into the event venue. I don't know whether the rule was from the venue, the promoter or the performer/group. I do know that it was enforced by security. (However, there was no such prohibition at the afterparties at the promoter's home.)
A radio station I worked for could not report anything during baseball games but the score and a summary of how the scoring occurred - *after* the inning in which runs were scored - because of a contractual agreement between the team and another radio station that did the play-by-play.
If you frequently photograph rodeos, you probably know the situation better than anybody (or at least most) on MM. Otherwise, I wouldn't assume anything. It shouldn't be difficult to check (with someone other than the official photographer.)
If there is no prohibition, and the official photographer is threatening the patrons, there might be an opening for an official photographer.
Dunno what to make of it, without a lot more info. But I guess my response would have been something along the lines of "wow, you really know how to elicit good PR and enthusiastic cooperation, man."
Spirit Wind Designs wrote: I am at an event tonight and had the "official" photographer approach me and tell me I better not be selling anything I shoot here... if I do he is gonna "sue my ass"... I was like WTF...
I would have said
"Don't talk to me in that tone of voice or in that manner or I'll kick your ass"
For kicks and some networking I shot some local Roller Derby (yes it still exists) plus a friend is on the team so I mostly shot her. I did it a few times, threw a few on FB and made some new friends, my work was also substantially better that their own photographers.
The last time I shot it, the girl in charge of their promo stuff made me sign this homemade waiver of theirs stating I'd turn over all high res shots to them on CD within 2 weeks of the event... (Hahahah, yea right!)
So during that bout their own photographers began standing in front of me. It couldn't have been more obviously intentional and another photographer who I was hanging out with most of the night and I got a kick out of it...
So, the last time I went to watch, I just watched, shot nothing... That night neither of their photographers could make the bout and one of the girls came up to me and asked how come I wasn't shooting... When I responded about their home made agreement and their photographers turned me off to giving them free photos she didn't have much to say...
So, their promo girl and their photographers didn't want me to shoot and they got their wish...
It depends, a lot on what is describe as a public event. Are they selling tickets to get in or is it free to the public? Is it on on public or private property? If they are selling tickets or on private property, it is not a public event. If you got a photo pass generally it is explained on your pass what you can do or not do with the images. This is common with pro sports and college. PBR has very clear guide lines.
If you are person walking in with a camera but did not get a pass in general you can shoot editorially but not commercially, the people in charge of the event can stop you from photographing if it is not a public event.
Can you be sued, of if your in the USA. If the the photographer has exclusive rights through the event organizers then yes it possible that you can be sued if you just walk in with a camera and start shooting without permission and selling images.
If your goal is to shoot the event commercially or editorially you need the event organizer permission.
"Public sporting event"? I don't think so. How about a rodeo privately produced with tickets sold to the public to attend the produced event. The original poster can look at it two different ways. If he were hired and contracted to be the event photographer for this rodeo and some other photographer could cut into his sales I suspect he would feel differently about it than he does now.
Sal W Hanna
Posts: 6,445
Huntington Beach, California, US
No, but I had an "In-house" photographer at a private event tell me I couldn't stand next to her in the Celebrity posing catwalk because she needed elbow room. I was polite and said, "Oh, that's fine I'll just shoot over your head." She was about 5'3" and I knew it would annoy the $h1t out of her. LOL
Bottom line, I had been approved by the company she works for to be there as a Media Photographer. It's bad to piss off Media, you never know what we will end up publishing about your organization
I learned from a friend of mine that she has had run ins with this particular jack ass too, essentially she was hired to shoot a rodeo that he had shot for years... from what I gather the promoters were very unhappy with his work and he wasn't delivering prints after people paid for them... in other words he cut his own throat and then blamed her for "cutting into his business".
Also, from a comment that was made in his little tirade I sought out another guy that is semi local that he started bad mouthing... after hearing this I figured I would try to get in contact with this other guy... needless to say he was pretty easy to find and contact, I have made a new contact and a new friend... from what he told me, this jackass likes to threaten anyone with a long lens.
Tim Little Photography wrote: "Public sporting event"? I don't think so. How about a rodeo privately produced with tickets sold to the public to attend the produced event. The original poster can look at it two different ways. If he were hired and contracted to be the event photographer for this rodeo and some other photographer could cut into his sales I suspect he would feel differently about it than he does now.
Reality is all about perspective.
I agree with this. It was NOT a "public" event - a rodeo is privately produced and held on private property (99 times out of 100). They have every right to control images produced on THEIR property at THEIR event.
If you were throwing a party at your house, would anyone there be free to take photos and sell them (if you didn't want them to)? I don't think so.
In the case of motocross for example the event photographers can get down in the dirt and shoot from the track. Not the same with rodeo no doubt but ---- Anyway having bike sore right over your head no more than 4 or 5 feet away gives you the advantage that the guy in the stands just doesn't have.
Anyway, at most motocross events anyone with a camera can and does snap shots.
If they try and sale prints they will most likely not do so well as the people that want the prints know who to go to for the shots they want.
More importantly the event photographers have a model release from all the contestants for publication purposes.
Basically of you are unknown the riders aren't coming to you for photos and with out the release publications will not license your photos so what's the point.
Not an issue. Well it shouldn't be an issue.
Anyway this year was my own first time ever getting to shoot right out on the track. I hope to be invited out again and get a chance to pursue this amazing thrilling sport close up more often.
photoimager
Posts: 4,111
Stoke-on-Trent, England, United Kingdom
At some point people might actually start to realise that they do not have a right to do as they please. If you are on private property then you have to follow their rules.If you do not like those rules you either stop or go home.
One event that I was at I'd been to a similar one at a much larger venue and photography was encouraged. At this one, as soon as a fashion show started security moved in and only photographers who had a stand at the show were allowed to take photographs ( excepting people with compacts / 'phones ). I accepted this and just enjoyed the show, noticing elements that I would not have noticed with my eye behind the lens. The way in which a hajab was floating like a wave on the sea being one such instance. Some others went off around the stalls, being a nuisance and were ejected. As a contrast the organiser apologised to me but he had to keep to the agreement he had with the people who had stands. The fact that the few photos that I got before being told to stop compared very favourably with those that appeared later on the event's web page ............
Spirit Wind Designs wrote: I am at an event tonight and had the "official" photographer approach me and tell me I better not be selling anything I shoot here... if I do he is gonna "sue my ass"... I was like WTF...
He might just be telling that to everyone attending that event as well, because everyone has a camera these days... but you don't know if he's calling the bluff or telling you the truth...
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