Rachael Bueckert wrote:
If you paid me 1 billion dollars, I'd be down

But seriously, I am non-nude, and it's not negotiable. My reason is simple; I don't want nude pictures of me floating around on the internet. People find that shit. Family, friends, co-workers, potential employers, future children, ect. I don't want it to end up haunting me in the future. And I don't see any really strong reason for me to do it in the first place, other than making some money off of pervy GWCs and/or legitimate artists (but mainly GWCs). I don't want to advertise myself as being an object for men to whack off to, either (eg. Playboy).

I understand and appreciate your reply.  However I get the feeling that you are lumping nudity into one category, and that is not fair.  My younger brother and my niece (even when she was 17 year old) have both posed for art nudes.  Nudity does not always mean "shot by GWC's" nor is it necessarily useful as material to "whack off to" for men or women. 

Some of our greatest art work from as far back as 2000 years ago are nudes.  The Us Mint has produced a quarter that had a bare breast, and a $5 bill that had a nude mother on it.  Of course the "moral police" had an up roar about that and pressured the US Mint to remove such art work from our money.  I collect money and art work, and can tell you that some of the most beautiful coins I've seen have come from France, Mexico and other countries that are not so hung up on nudity meaning "sex" all the time.

Men and women who pose nude are not "objects!"   So I think that indirectly, your comment could be taken as a jab at those men and women who do pose nude.  I shoot far more clothed models than I do nude.  I can assure you that a picture does not have to be of nudity to be obscene.  Also I've heard that "pervs" can "whack off" to just about anything.  It's more about what is in their mind.

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
Wow... you don't really have much of an idea about how the average woman thinks, hm? Sure, a lot of people (not just women) would do just about anything to be famous, but that doesn't mean anything you said above is true. And yeah, people (not just women) like to be desired... that's kind of a no-brainer....

So let me get this straight I don't know how the average woman thinks but at the same time you say "Sure, a lot of people (not just women) would do just about anything to be famous."

Actually I do know a lot about how the average attractive woman that are swimwear models, nude models, strippers, cocktail waitresses women that make their money from their looks thinks Because I have asked them. And then look at Facebook and Myspace and all of the women constantly posting their revealing/modeling pics for attention and approval. Look at the women that enter the Bikini contests with no guaranteed payment.

And what about the women that enter contests and model that don't have the body and looks for it yet they do it anyway. Why do they do it? Because it makes them feel good that someone finds them attractive.

My opinion is based on my years of interaction of working with them and talking to them, having female friends and dating very attractive women in other words real life experience as well as observation. And as it just so happens there is a psychological and scientific data to back this up as well.

So don't tell me that what I said was wrong because it's NOT.

My point was money is NOT always a factor or the biggest ones, which is why many women will shoot nudes TF or pay to shoot. They want to be portrayed in a image that makes the desirable, that will get the attention and approval (something all people are hardwired to want). It makes them feel good about themselves. I have women PAY ME to shoot them because they want to remember how they looked their best when they young when they are grandmothers.

I'm NOT saying in anyway that this as a bad thing. It's just the way it is for many of those that choose to do it. And I would prefer to work with a woman that wanted it to do it for those reasons rather than one that was there for the money. I enjoy making a people feel good and seeing their face when when they love there pictures. I like to make people look the best that can. I have also seen this in men I have worked with. When they see an image that makes them look more attractive you can see it effect their self-esteem in a positive way.

How anyone can take what I said negatively I not sure. Ironically the women telling me I'm wrong are the one's that don't pose nude so really their opinion is not valid as they have no experience in the matter as their perspective is not that of a nude model.

Mandarinfish Art wrote:
I haven't read through the thread entirely, but an important thing to keep in mind is that most of these models are very young. A very large percentage of them probably have no idea what their future careers will be and don't want to risk nude photos being found by future employers just in case, and some of them do have career plans (in teaching, law, politics, social work, health, etc) and can't have nude pictures floating around the internet at all.

This means a huge number of young models saying they won't shoot nudes will NOT shoot nudes regardless of how much you're willing to pay them or how talented you are because it could prevent them from succeeding in their fields.

If we are discussing nudity that is NOT pornographic, then age shouldn't be a factor, and neither should ones career.  I know that many people have the wrong idea about nudity, but it simply is to say that someone modeling nude is going to be harmed in the future from their past. 

It does depend on what career one is in.  I personally know doctors, nurses, judges and other professionals who have posed nude in their early years.  It often does not come back to harm them.  Those who are school teachers, and police officers are in less powerful positions, and can find it difficult to keep such past modeling a secret.  Even some A-list actors have posed nude, as well as have done nude scenes in movies without any harm to their careers.  There are too many variables to paint this subject with a broad brush!

Patrick Walberg wrote:

If we are discussing nudity that is NOT pornographic, then age shouldn't be a factor, and neither should ones career.  I know that many people have the wrong idea about nudity, but it simply is to say that someone modeling nude is going to be harmed in the future from their past. 

It does depend on what career one is in.  I personally know doctors, nurses, judges and other professionals who have posed nude in their early years.  It often does not come back to harm them.  Those who are school teachers, and police officers are in less powerful positions, and can find it difficult to keep such past modeling a secret.  Even some A-list actors have posed nude, as well as have done nude scenes in movies without any harm to their careers.  There are too many variables to paint this subject with a broad brush!

Sylvester Stallone did a porno movie back when it was called porno...lol

A few insights on my own that related to both of your points of view.

I used to be the type to watch everything I did so it would not come back to me in the future. And now that I have lived awhile. I have seen that the people that just did what they wanted to do, are open about it and lived in the moment had much more enjoyable lives, are often more successful that those that don't do thing fearing the judgement of others.

And on a spiritual level any time you are seeking approval of others outside of yourself for your decisions you're not in a good place. "Relinquish the need for approval outside of yourself" - Deepak Chopra.

Instead follow your passion and let it lead you and trust that it will work out. If your passion is to do nudes so be it if not that ok also. It should be your decision for your reason.

Now as I say on my profile page. "If you plan on becoming or marrying a politician, or some how feel it's wrong I suggest you do not do nudes...never violate your own principals. "

Sometimes photographers also shy away from showing their nude work because of judgement. I'm proud of my work and openly show it to almost anyone, anywhere I am if they ask me what I do. If they don't like it that's their problem I'm happy with what I'm doing and I tend to attract others that like it also.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
If you are a model who doesn't do nudes, is this non negotiable or ... do you have a price?   The details of this question would be if a photographer of the quality that you admire were to offer you any amount of money (within reason), is there a dollar amount that would get you to change your mind? 

The reason for this question is that another photographer and I were discussing if models were absolutely "non-negotiable" on nudity or if there are some that could be persuaded with the right amount of money?

Some say "Will go nude ONLY for Playboy" for example.  If you are absolutely "non-negotiable" could you please elaborate on why?  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm curious to learn more about just how negotiable some models are. Discuss!

Hello,

I absolutely would NOT go nude for playboy but, would for an artistic or implied shoot, at a later time. Currently my employer is very conservative and absolutely would NOT understand any creative artistic endeavors that involve me being nude. I will have to wait until later to enjoy creating in this medium unless it completely obscures or avoids my identity.

Jen
p.s. to add...and money is not required for the art of an amazing shot!

Nico Simon Princely wrote:

Sylvester Stallone did a porno movie back when it was called porno...lol

A few insights on my own that related to both of your points of view.

I used to be the type to watch everything I did so it would not come back to me in the future. And now that I have lived awhile. I have seen that the people that just did what they wanted to do, are open about it and lived in the moment had much more enjoyable lives, are often more successful that those that don't do thing fearing the judgement of others.

And on a spiritual level any time you are seeking approval of others outside of yourself for your decisions you're not in a good place. "Relinquish the need for approval outside of yourself" - Deepak Chopra.

Instead follow your passion and let it lead you and trust that it will work out. If your passion is to do nudes so be it if not that ok also. It should be your decision for your reason.

Now as I say on my profile page. "If you plan on becoming or marrying a politician, or some how feel it's wrong I suggest you do not do nudes...never violate your own principals. "

Sometimes photographers also shy away from showing their nude work because of judgement. I'm proud of my work and openly show it to almost anyone, anywhere I am if they ask me what I do. If they don't like it that's their problem I'm happy with what I'm doing and I tend to attract others that like it also.

I know as well as you do that people can be extremely judgmental.  I try not to let it bother me, but sometimes it does.  Nudity isn't for everyone.  That goes for models and the viewers too!   I know that any nude work that I shoot is going to reach a more limited market as a result.

Nico Simon Princely wrote:
...
Actually I do know a lot about how the average attractive woman that are swimwear models, nude models, strippers, cocktail waitresses women that make their money from their looks thinks Because I have asked them. ...My point was money is NOT always a factor or the biggest ones, which is why many women will shoot nudes TF or pay to shoot. They want to be portrayed in a image that makes the desirable, that will get the attention and approval (something all people are hardwired to want). It makes them feel good about themselves. I have women PAY ME to shoot them because they want to remember how they looked their best when they young when they are grandmothers.

I'm NOT saying in anyway that this as a bad thing. It's just the way it is for many of those that choose to do it. And I would prefer to work with a woman that wanted it to do it for those reasons rather than one that was there for the money. I enjoy making a people feel good and seeing their face when when they love there pictures. I like to make people look the best that can. I have also seen this in men I have worked with. When they see an image that makes them look more attractive you can see it effect their self-esteem in a positive way.

How anyone can take what I said negatively I not sure. Ironically the women telling me I'm wrong are the one's that don't pose nude so really their opinion is not valid as they have no experience in the matter as their perspective is not that of a nude model.

true

Even though I cannot shoot nudes due to my current employer I completely agree with you here as a clothed model the same holds true. I do feel good about my looks based on modeling pictures. Period! It is unmistakablby the truth. Sure, there are other factors that go into it but, you are correct in my eyes.
Jen

Emily Archer wrote:
As a model who poses nude, I'm not exactly the target audience that the OP was addressing, but I used to be opposed to shooting nudity on moral grounds.  I ended up changing my mind, but money couldn't have persuaded me to think differently at the time.  It had to be a change in my thinking, not the height of the stack of bills.

There are legitimate reasons to not shoot nudity.  One of the more important ones is the fear that family members or friends will find out, or that future job opportunities will be hindered because of it.  If I felt those were higher priorities than my artistic fulfillment, money, once again, could not persuade me. 

I do believe that there are some people who cannot be persuaded by any amount of money, simply because their reputation or lack of embarrassment has more value.

Thank you for posting!  I love getting models perspectives regardless ... but the fact that you changed your mind about posing nude is interesting to me.  I've changed too!  I was raised Catholic where many things were taboo.  Nudity, as in for example "girly magazines" was sinful.  So was masturbation.  The Popes word was that of God and so on!   Now I no longer believe all that crap, and I guess I'm what they might call a fallen away, non practicing, or worse yet  ... former Catholic even though I still say that is my religion when I'm at the hospital. 

As a wedding photographer, and also a singer, I've been in many churches of various religions.  I like the Hindu faith mostly for the food!    I honestly see good things and bad things about religions.  So my belief is in a spiritual God, but not in religion.  I certainly don't believe nudity to be sinful, bad or evil in any way.  Of course there are people who disagree with me on this and I accept that as their opinion.  Fortunately I am older and will probably never work for anyone else but myself from now on.

Jennifer Barker wrote:
I have been offered money .. I choose not to for myself .. Now I admire those who do and do it well.

Thanks Jennifer for your input. 

DavidCoward Photography wrote:
What's more puzzling than the models who say "no nudes" but have nudes in their ports, is the ones who say "paid assignments only" and you look at their port and all it is, is a handful of tacky camera phone pics.

Really? Do you expect someone to pay you when you have no experience?

You've noticed that too?

Gennaver wrote:

Hello,

I absolutely would NOT go nude for playboy but, would for an artistic or implied shoot, at a later time. Currently my employer is very conservative and absolutely would NOT understand any creative artistic endeavors that involve me being nude. I will have to wait until later to enjoy creating in this medium unless it completely obscures or avoids my identity.

Jen
p.s. to add...and money is not required for the art of an amazing shot!

Hi Jen, and thanks for replying.  Like many models who "may" shoot nudes, you are selective, and not necessarily swayed by money.  A reason that I do prefer that money be exchanged one way or the other is to more clearly clarify ownership and user rights.

marzistylist wrote:
I think it's a personal choice and no one should try to change their mind. Cos imagine..if she's forced to do a shoot nude, she would be very uncomfortable and her poses might be very akward!

It is a personal choice, and I'm not trying to change minds.   I don't think anyone should be forced to do anything of the sort if they don't want to!  I'm just wondering how many models are solid on what they will do and how many are negotiable.  Simply clicking "Yes" or "no" to "nudity?" does not cover this.  It can't!  That is why I started this discussion to expand on asking those models who have profiles here stating "No" what they think.

Nico Simon Princely wrote:
much of the self-esteem comes from how desirable they are to men(and other women) and this hardwired into them just like we are hardwired to want to look at them.

The fuck? Self-esteem comes from what?
So, how do lesbians EVER find their self-esteem?

Amazes me the notions some folks come up with.

TheLittleG Photography wrote:

that is what i am talking about, in my post, there are some model profiles that say that
"NO NUDES, DON'T EVEN ASK"   and when you look at there "lists" and they have one titled "Photos I want to recreate"  and there are nude photos in it.
so if you look at the photos in the list it would tell me they will do nudes but there words say they will not...

why don't they say  "i will only do nudes with select photographers"?

In my experience, that sort of conflict in the portfolio is a red flag.  If often indicates a model who is too self-absorbed.

K I C K H A M wrote:
Not everyone has a price.

My reason is not a moral one, so if I were offered enough money (and for something reputable), I would probably do it.  However, no one in their right mind would pay that amount of money, ESPECIALLY for a llama with no nude experience.

There is content I would not shoot for any amount.

Right now, I don't see any legitimate job offering the sort of money it would take to get me to do nudes.

Hey Kelli!  Love you!    You kick ass!

The other photographer whom I was discussing this with also considered other potential "No's" in this industry.  For example "fur" and "tobacco!"   I'm not keen on shooting either of those two ... but I did shoot portraits of a tobacco lobbyist while he smoked in my studio back in the 1990's.   Not only am I anti-smoking, I do not like what I saw of how the powerful tobacco lobby spent 10's of millions to defeat Prop 26, the tobacco tax.  My price to get me to shoot anything tobacco related is so expensive now that they wont hire me.  So I understand where you are coming from.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
If you are a model who doesn't do nudes, is this non negotiable or ... do you have a price?   The details of this question would be if a photographer of the quality that you admire were to offer you any amount of money (within reason), is there a dollar amount that would get you to change your mind? 

The reason for this question is that another photographer and I were discussing if models were absolutely "non-negotiable" on nudity or if there are some that could be persuaded with the right amount of money?

Some say "Will go nude ONLY for Playboy" for example.  If you are absolutely "non-negotiable" could you please elaborate on why?  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm curious to learn more about just how negotiable some models are. Discuss!

Well... I could be offered 1 million pounds to do open- legs/ any porn looking pictures and I wouldn't! No way, never. Also, I wouldnt do any nude shoot with amateur photographer that doesn't know how to take pics and only wanna do it to watch me naked, no matter how much he pays and even if pics wouldnt be published. NO. I am not a stripper.
I do implied but don't really wanna show everything, I dont mind going topless if my nipples are covered. I would like to do fully nudes with a good photographer but it would be a shame for my family, can't do this to them. They not happy about my pictures now, so if I did fully nudes they would be very disappointed.

T-D-L wrote:
Everyone has a price.  It's easy to say "No" to something without the money/fame/opportunites whatever in front of you.  In the case of nudes, most say that they wouldn't do it because of their future career.  Let's say you make ~75k a year in your future career (that you haven't even started yet 9 times out of 10 )....multiplied by lets say 40 years before you retire = $3 million.  I'm willing to bet if you offered one of these girls $3 million dollars, in person, in bundles of $100 bills....they'd seriously consider it, regardless of how adamant they are any other day some gwc offers them $500.  Now lets even consider extremes....say you're like Zuckerberg rich and have nothing to spend your money on....I bet if you offered girls $1billion cash you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that'd say no.  I'm willing to bet most would do it for far far less if the opportunity arose.  People do horrible things for money everyday....shooting nudes is nothing in comparison.

The thing is these girls don't get offered these extremes, so it's really a moot point because who is out there offering girls $1million to see their tits?  Besides, if you had to offer that much would you really want to shoot them?  Seems to be a bit too much trouble if you ask me, especially when there's plenty of models out there open to that kind of stuff in exchange for some pretty pics, and even more if you offer something reasonable in terms of money.

I disagree, you can't buy everything. I used to know a guy, he was my regular customer. The guy is SOOO rich, for him 200 pounds is like 20 pense. I used to talk to him a lot, he was an interesting person but very lonely and had some issues. So once he said- you don't have to work anymore. I'll be paying all your bills, I'll be giving you more money that you earn now and I'll pay for your Uni, I'll be takin you for holidays, shopping etc. You can live your life and do what you want, just please come to see me few evenings every week. I said NO! And he was actually handsome and I did like him but because he offered me that Ive never spoken to him again because Im not a hoe. Guys think they can buy everything because a lot of women sell themselves, I think its very himiliating to do it.

MartaBrixton wrote:
I disagree, you can't buy everything. I used to know a guy, he was my regular customer. The guy is SOOO rich, for him 200 pounds is like 20 pense. I used to talk to him a lot, he was an interesting person but very lonely and had some issues. So once he said- you don't have to work anymore. I'll be paying all your bills, I'll be giving you more money that you earn now and I'll pay for your Uni, I'll be takin you for holidays, shopping etc. You can live your life and do what you want, just please come to see me few evenings every week. I said NO! And he was actually handsome and I did like him but because he offered me that Ive never spoken to him again because Im not a hoe. Guys think they can buy everything because a lot of women sell themselves, I think its very himiliating to do it.

I think it's wrong going around calling women hoes just because they sell themselves. Women that are comfortable with themselves and have no problem selling what men mostly want are smart business people. Sex/love/companion mean different things to people. That doesn't make them less of a person because of it.

I say power to them

Erlinda wrote:

I think it's wrong going around calling women hoes just because they sell themselves.

That statement makes no sense what so ever.

How is it wrong that's exactly what a Whore/Hoe is, a woman that sells herself. If  you don't think it's wrong to be a Whore that's fine but there is nothing wrong with calling something what it is. A Black man is a Black Man. A Model is a Model and a Whore is a Whore. Whore is only a derogatory word if you view it as such.  At times in history whores where often highly regarded and even part of spiritual practices.

Nico Simon Princely wrote:

That statement makes no sense what so ever.

How is it wrong that's exactly what a Whore/Hoe is, a woman that sells herself. If  you don't think it's wrong to be a Whore that's fine but there is nothing wrong with calling something what it is. A Black man is a Black Man. A Model is a Model and a Whore is a Whore. Whore is only a derogatory word if you view it as such.  At times in history whores where often highly regarded and even part of spiritual practices.

Exactly. It is what it is.

Cherrystone wrote:
The fuck? Self-esteem comes from what?
So, how do lesbians EVER find their self-esteem?

Amazes me the notions some folks come up with.

It amazes me the ignorance some people have of the the psychology behind what drives people and the inability to read the entire sentence I wrote.

What part of "(and other women)" did you miss regarding lesbians.

Yes part of self-esteem for most people, male and female is feeling sexually desirable to the opposite sex or the sex you are attracted to. If doubt this you're clueless. This is why sex is used in advertising and has been proven to sell products.

"Oh if I buy that's I'll be more attractive."
"If I wear that women will want me"
"My ass looks better in those heels"
"That car is a pussy magnet"

C'mon does any one think women wear heels that hurt like hell because they fell good and just  to walk around the house in, hell no they wear them because it make their ass look better and the looks sexy on their feet. And I know tons of men that got tattoos because "Girl like guys with tats"
" and not to be more attractive.

And once again I'm not judging the actions only pointing out the obvious motivation behind it and the link to Self-Esteem pleaure of seeing oneself look good.

I'm no exception. I love when I look good in a picture. I don't workout like I do and take care of myself because I don't care how I look.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Thank you for your reply.  There are plenty of models who do nudes, as well as many who don't, with many others in between or on the fence about nude photography.

I gave up my dream of being a social worker for personal reasons.  The moment the first nude pic of me hit the net I knew that it was never going to go away.  I knew that there would be a chance some one I know could find the photo and see it.  I accepted that it may come back to haunt me in various future ways.  Knowing that I can still go forward.

Nico Simon Princely wrote:

It amazes me the ignorance some people have of the the psychology behind what drives people and simple ability to read the entire sentence.

What part of "(and other women)" did you miss regarding lesbians.

Yes part of self-esteem for most people, male and female is feeling sexually desirable to the opposite sex or the sex you are attracted to. If doubt this you're clueless. This is why sex is used in advertising and had been proven to sell products.

"Oh if I buy that's I'll be more attractive."
"If I wear that women will want me"
"My ass looks better in those heels"
"That car is a pussy magnet"

C'mon does any one think women wear heels that hurt like hell because they fell good and just  to walk around the house in. And I know tons of men that got tattoos because "Girl like guys with tats"
" and not to be more attractive.

I actually wear uncomfortable heels around the house just because I think they're awesome.. Just as I dress up even if I'm not going anywhere, just because I like the time and care I put into myself. I know most of my friends dress up and look pretty, just because they appreciate the time and care they put in to themselves. They're not doing it for anyone else but themselves.

Nico Simon Princely wrote:

That statement makes no sense what so ever.

How is it wrong that's exactly what a Whore/Hoe is, a woman that sells herself. If  you don't think it's wrong to be a Whore that's fine but there is nothing wrong with calling something what it is. A Black man is a Black Man. A Model is a Model and a Whore is a Whore. Whore is only a derogatory word if you view it as such.  At times in history whores where often highly regarded and even part of spiritual practices.

Whore is such an old term and it's dirty. Back then people werent that civilized. So they came up with stupid words.

I'd like to think that we have grown as human beings and can at least call them prostitutes..

Most women who call women a hoe/whore use it to slander them.

Sarah_ wrote:
In my case, I have never taken a nude shot nor will I ever no matter how much money I am offered.  As someone who intends to work in the corporate world and has spent years of hard work earning business degrees, I will not jeopardize my career with any sort of photos that could be deemed inappropriate for a business executive.  I prefer to err on the safe side, which means no lingerie and no nudes.  People tried to tell me that refusing "sexy" work would cripple my modeling career, but I much prefer to refuse a few offers now rather than risk destroying a future corporate career.  Besides, I've been published in more than ten countries around the world, so if that's limited, I'm okay with these limitations.

I hear this all the time and yet still fail to understand why shooting (good-quality & tasteful) nudes could in any way be considered as being detrimental to a person's career regardless of what her future plans might be...
If it's brought up you say "I used to be a model"...

If it really is a barrier, I think it says more about the hypocrisy of the people you work with than anything else...

The former First Lady of France was a former nude model - didn't do her any harm at all...

RKD Photographic wrote:

I hear this all the time and yet still fail to understand why shooting (good-quality & tasteful) nudes could in any way be considered as being detrimental to a person's career regardless of what her future plans might be...
If it's brought up you say "I used to be a model"...

If it really is a barrier, I think it says more about the hypocrisy of the people you work with than anything else...

The former First Lady of France was a former nude model - didn't do her any harm at all...

It didn't do her any harm because of the immensly high status she has. When someone has a really high status, most people will automatically look up to her (because of evolution, having high status means getting more food and care, thus chances of survival are greater). In that case, it doesn't really matter what she has done to certain extent.
I'm going to be a therapist. If any of my cliënts will see any nudes of me, my status as a therapist will be gone immediately (for most clients). Nudes to some will be considered an art form, but many will think 'playboy' no matter what. As a therapist, i'm simply not considered to be a human being just like everybody else. Especially when dealing with children. Imagine i'd be dealing with a kid who'se been sexually abused, and all of a sudden they find a nude picture of me on the internet. That would feel as though i'm betraying them big time.
When you are a 'professional' in any career, you're simply no longer considered being a human being, but an expert on your field. People don't want to know that you have another life as well. It doesn't mean I agree with this at all, but it is how it works.