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Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


I get contacted by them from time to time. Sometimes, I get asked to do fashion nudes, and I see examples of what they have in mind, and sure, I can do that. I've loved getting back the images from those shoots.

But once in a while, I get an ambiguous "I want to work with you." from a person who doesn't have any nude work in their work either on here or on their websites, and I don't know what to do with it.

I'm never going to be a fashion model. I'm 26, and while the lower end of my weight spectrum makes me fashion-shaped, I spend about half my time being slender, but definitely not supermodel waify. There is no sense for me to build a portfolio that will not realistically translate into getting me paid work.

I guess I'm confused because, after years of hanging round the forums and getting the "Read newmodels.com" sorts of advice tidbits to models with unrealistic expectations of changing the industry, I don't understand why I get encouraged to step out of the realistic expectations I've set for myself as a model.
Jul 12 12 09:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
K E E L I N G
Posts: 39,773
Peoria, Illinois, US


immateria wrote:
I get contacted by them from time to time. Sometimes, I get asked to do fashion nudes, and I see examples of what they have in mind, and sure, I can do that. I've loved getting back the images from those shoots.

But once in a while, I get an ambiguous "I want to work with you." from a person who doesn't have any nude work in their work either on here or on their websites, and I don't know what to do with it.

I'm never going to be a fashion model. I'm 26, and while the lower end of my weight spectrum makes me fashion-shaped, I spend about half my time being slender, but definitely not supermodel waify. There is no sense for me to build a portfolio that will not realistically translate into getting me paid work.

I guess I'm confused because, after years of hanging round the forums and getting the "Read newmodels.com" sorts of advice tidbits to models with unrealistic expectations of changing the industry, I don't understand why I get encouraged to step out of the realistic expectations I've set for myself as a model.

You are 5'9" and relatively close to Industry Standard, so they are asking you to work with them because you will be of value to THEIR book.  Whether or not it helps your book only you can decide, but in reality it's not their concern.  They simply want to work with you because they see in you something that can help them.

You also have to understand that someone who is Industry Standard AND does nudes is rare here on MM, so most likely you are one of the very few choices they have in their area, so they'd be fools not to ask.

You can always give them a respectful no.  After all, they are asking because they value you... if nothing else it's a compliment.  smile

Jul 12 12 09:08 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


K E E L I N G wrote:

You are 5'9" and relatively close to Industry Standard, so they are asking you to work with them because you will be of value to THEIR book.  Whether or not it helps your book only you can decide, but in reality it's not their concern.  They simply want to work with you because they see in you something that can help them.

You also have to understand that someone who is Industry Standard AND does nudes is rare here on MM, so most likely you are one of the very few choices they have in their area, so they'd be fools not to ask.

You can always give them a respectful no.  After all, they are asking because they value you... if nothing else it's a compliment.  smile

If it was clear that they wanted to shoot nudes, I'd have no issue. It is flattering, and I love fashion photography so getting to meld my genre with fashion work is fun for me. The confusion stems from people who don't seem to shoot outside of the fashion genre whose work would be benefited by actual agency-standard fashion models. Why ask a 26-year-old nude model to do work that is better done by a 17-year-old fashion model?

Jul 12 12 09:36 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Kaley King
Posts: 1,027
Jefferson City, Missouri, US


immateria wrote:

If it was clear that they wanted to shoot nudes, I'd have no issue. It is flattering, and I love fashion photography so getting to meld my genre with fashion work is fun for me. The confusion stems from people who don't seem to shoot outside of the fashion genre whose work would be benefited by actual agency-standard fashion models. Why ask a 26-year-old nude model to do work that is better done by a 17-year-old fashion model?

Maybe they are trying to target an older crowd for a particular project.  I personally feel more prompt to buy something if I see someone my own age wearing it.  Why would I want to buy something 17 year olds wear?  Ya know?

Jul 12 12 09:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,254
Atlanta, Georgia, US


immateria wrote:

If it was clear that they wanted to shoot nudes, I'd have no issue. It is flattering, and I love fashion photography so getting to meld my genre with fashion work is fun for me. The confusion stems from people who don't seem to shoot outside of the fashion genre whose work would be benefited by actual agency-standard fashion models. Why ask a 26-year-old nude model to do work that is better done by a 17-year-old fashion model?

Well a fashion nude at that age may be an issue wink but really around here there are a lot of models who claim they do fashion but won't do any nudity.  Odd considering that nudity and fashion is very common, at least outside of the US.  But as was mentioned you can pose, have an interesting look, and are very close to standard; sounds like a good model choice.

Jul 12 12 09:49 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


1namil wrote:

Maybe they are trying to target an older crowd for a particular project.  I personally feel more prompt to buy something if I see someone my own age wearing it.  Why would I want to buy something 17 year olds wear?  Ya know?

That's what commercial models are for.

Jul 12 12 09:50 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


AJScalzitti wrote:

Well a fashion nude at that age may be an issue wink but really around here there are a lot of models who claim they do fashion but won't do any nudity.  Odd considering that nudity and fashion is very common, at least outside of the US.  But as was mentioned you can pose, have an interesting look, and are very close to standard; sounds like a good model choice.

Again, that would make sense, if there was an indication that I would be posing nude. I asked for clarification from one photographer, and granted he might respond asking me to shoot nude, but after the initial contact, I can't assume that I am wanted for the nudity. He has no nudes in his portfolio. His message didn't indicate that he wants to shoot them.

Jul 12 12 09:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,442
Paris, Île-de-France, France


fashion is about the portrait of you, or at least the best is. You are not the norm for fashion, yet thin enough and enough form that you certainly can do some great pix. As long as the stylist knows your size, I can't see any reason you can't.

Just to add confusion...
Jul 12 12 09:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,254
Atlanta, Georgia, US


immateria wrote:
Again, that would make sense, if there was an indication that I would be posing nude. I asked for clarification from one photographer, and granted he might respond asking me to shoot nude, but after the initial contact, I can't assume that I am wanted for the nudity. He has no nudes in his portfolio. His message didn't indicate that he wants to shoot them.

Well then maybe its just about your posing and look?

However I could see you doing something like that recent editorial “Stripped” for Drehmoment Magazine #1, but hey that is just me (and its nude).  Even better the Gravure Magazine, Summer 2012 editorial featuring Anastasia Khodkina...

back on topic

edit and PS

http://fashionography.net/2012/06/27/an … mmer-2012/

Jul 12 12 10:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,257
San Diego, California, US


Because fashion is a visual poetry and alchemy and as such, has many formulas and doesn't always make sense.
Jul 12 12 10:08 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
sdgillis
Posts: 2,422
Portland, Oregon, US


possible reasons... wardrobe on hand fits you.  You aren't constantly texting and being daffy. They need to bounce light off someone who is 5'9". 

With life drawing, there are open studios around here that offer diversity and a constant change of models.  The reason is that we need to constantly practice and we get different poses from each person we draw.
Jul 12 12 10:09 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


Neil Snape wrote:
fashion is about the portrait of you, or at least the best is. You are not the norm for fashion, yet thin enough and enough form that you certainly can do some great pix. As long as the stylist knows your size, I can't see any reason you can't.

Just to add confusion...

I was kind of under the impression that fashion was more about, well, the fashion, and not necessarily the body wearing it. No? tongue I don't pretend to understand a whole lot about it.

I can certainly pose for the picture, sure. But that won't lead me to gracing the pages of Vogue Italia or modeling for Dior. All I will really get is that picture, and possibly more photographers asking me to lug around a suitcase of clothing I don't own to hackneyed 'fashion' shoots.

Jul 12 12 10:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tyler C Johnson
Posts: 163
San Diego, California, US


They may just want the option to shoot nude, as in finding a model who can "pass" for a fashion model but would be willing to work with fashion nudes as well. Everyone has to do their first nude shoot at some point (if they plan on doing them) and it may be more comfortable for them working with a model whose shape they are familiar with. I personally would be terrified trying to pose an art nude model smile but I guess that's a challenge for another day.

Ill tell you one thing, I often take on the oddest projects out of my comfort zone because it helps me expand my range and brings ideas to the table. Doing a non nude fashion shoot may not help your book, but its an opportunity to challenge your skills outside of what you normally do and that can be worth a lot!
Jul 12 12 10:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
dave phoenix
Posts: 1,272
Phoenix, Arizona, US


immateria wrote:
The confusion stems from people who don't seem to shoot outside of the fashion genre whose work would be benefited by actual agency-standard fashion models. Why ask a 26-year-old nude model to do work that is better done by a 17-year-old fashion model?

Because they can't get the agency model to agree to a trade shoot, maybe.

Jul 12 12 10:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
dave phoenix
Posts: 1,272
Phoenix, Arizona, US


immateria wrote:
I was kind of under the impression that fashion was more about, well, the fashion, and not necessarily the body wearing it. No? tongue I don't pretend to understand a whole lot about it.

Well, no, not really.

If I was shooting fashion I'd rather shoot Lara Stone in thrift store garbage than a girl who doesn't look like a fashion model at all.

Jul 12 12 10:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,427
Los Angeles, California, US


Maybe they just like your look and want to photograph you . . . .




Just because they do mostly fashion doesn't mean that they might want to shoot something outside of their normal routine.

Even someone that likes steak and potatoes all the time, will occasionally want some Chinese food for variety.

Why question it ? ?

KM
Jul 12 12 10:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


[url=http://florida.arrests.org/Arrests/Tyler_Waitt_2207044 wrote:
Tyler[/url] C Johnson] They may just want the option to shoot nude, as in finding a model who can "pass" for a fashion model but would be willing to work with fashion nudes as well. Everyone has to do their first nude shoot at some point (if they plan on doing them) and it may be more comfortable for them working with a model whose shape they are familiar with. I personally would be terrified trying to pose an art nude model smile but I guess that's a challenge for another day.

Ill tell you one thing, I often take on the oddest projects out of my comfort zone because it helps me expand my range and brings ideas to the table. Doing a non nude fashion shoot may not help your book, but its an opportunity to challenge your skills outside of what you normally do and that can be worth a lot!

I actually thought about starting this thread on the topic of more direct communication, because the bottom line is that every time I get a message of "I'm a fashion photographer, and I want to work with you" and nothing else, I end of pulling my hair going: "What do you want from me?!" until I get clarification. Life would be easier of people were just more upfront about what they are looking to do.

Going outside my comfort zone would be a lot more helpful if I wasn't a very, very part-time art model who gets flaked on so often I don't why I even bother trying anymore.

Jul 12 12 10:21 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


dave phoenix wrote:

Well, no, not really.

If I was shooting fashion I'd rather shoot Lara Stone in thrift store garbage than a girl who doesn't look like a fashion model at all.

I get that, but isn't the point of opening a fashion magazine to look at pretty clothes, instead of pretty girls? The girl accentuates the clothing, not the other way around. 'Cause no one is buying girls.

Jul 12 12 10:23 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Maybe they just like your look and want to photograph you . . . .




Just because they do mostly fashion doesn't mean that they might want to shoot something outside of their normal routine.

Even someone that likes steak and potatoes all the time, will occasionally want some Chinese food for variety.

Why question it ? ?

KM

Then it really comes down to a communication issue:

If you're sending a message to a model who clearly shoots a different genre than you, it helps to state that you want to shoot hers instead of yours. Or just your intent.

Jul 12 12 10:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,427
Los Angeles, California, US


immateria wrote:
Then it really comes down to a communication issue:

If you're sending a message to a model who clearly shoots a different genre than you, it helps to state that you want to shoot hers instead of yours. Or just your intent.

OR . . . . YOU could just simply reply:  "What is it that you have in mind to shoot?"

Jul 12 12 10:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,257
San Diego, California, US


dave phoenix wrote:
Well, no, not really.

If I was shooting fashion I'd rather shoot Lara Stone in thrift store garbage than a girl who doesn't look like a fashion llama at all.
immateria wrote:
I get that, but isn't the point of opening a fashion magazine to look at pretty clothes, instead of pretty girls? The girl accentuates the clothing, not the other way around. 'Cause no one is buying girls.

Not necessarily. Depending on audience and intent, they are buying the fantasy of being that girl. To this end faces can be powerful communication tools and maybe the photographers that are contacting you see something in your face that expresses what they want to say.

Jul 12 12 10:28 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 20,930
New York, New York, US


immateria wrote:
If it was clear that they wanted to shoot nudes, I'd have no issue. It is flattering, and I love fashion photography so getting to meld my genre with fashion work is fun for me. The confusion stems from people who don't seem to shoot outside of the fashion genre whose work would be benefited by actual agency-standard fashion models. Why ask a 26-year-old nude model to do work that is better done by a 17-year-old fashion model?

Almost all fashion shooters shoot nudes.  I would contact you for the same reason, for the same kind of photos - just because I don't put them here means nothing.  I did put one here that reflects a new project I'm working on.

Sometimes you just want to experiment with an idea.  It's not "for" anything, you just want to shoot and play and see where it leads you.  I would shoot you all day long in that context.

Jul 12 12 10:30 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


A part of me is frustrated because when I was 19 and weighed 114 pounds, and was first thinking about modeling, I lacked the confidence and wherewithal to pursue mainstream genres. Now I'm 26, and happy with my body, with a well-developed sense of awareness, and a part of me wishes that I could take that confidence back in time and transfer it to my 19-year-old self.

But I can't. And I have so many activities and goals outside of modeling, that I cannot allow myself to take on shoots that won't benefit me outside of just providing me pretty pictures.
Jul 12 12 10:33 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

OR . . . . YOU could just simply reply:  "What is it that you have in mind to shoot?"

I do. But I'm sure you can relate when I say that I've spent countless hours this week responding to photographers/artists  trying to squeeze information out of them just to learn on email #12 that for whatever reason it's not going to work out and I've spend all that time jamming my fingers at my keyboard for nothing.

Jul 12 12 10:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,257
San Diego, California, US


These are a couple of the better threads on the subject that have come up here.
Interesting reading. Check 'em:

"Explain Fashion of Die"
http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=70666

"Fashion Photography and what I don\'t get about it."
http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?threa … 528&page=1
Jul 12 12 10:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,412
Belmont, California, US


immateria wrote:
I actually thought about starting this thread on the topic of more direct communication,

I actually thought that was your topic to begin with and that nobody was addressing it?!

I'll take a shot: PROBLEM--some people are not thorough in their communications. That wastes the recipients' time and usually engenders unhelpful responses wasting the senders' time too. SOLUTION--I hope posts, like yours, encourage these people to reread PMs before sending and not to hit send until their desires are clearly stated. Write as if the recipient has no idea what you're talking about.

Jul 12 12 10:38 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


Also, I want to point out that I'm not trying to come off as argumentative or ornery.

I've had to turn down shoots with photographers who have quality work because it just wouldn't have benefited my portfolio. I don't enjoy it. If I had unlimited time, energy and resources, I would do it all the time, but I don't have these things.

Anyway, I'm truly just trying to see other people's perspectives, and I very much appreciate all the replies smile
Jul 12 12 10:44 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


Toto Photo wrote:

I actually thought that was your topic to begin with and that nobody was addressing it?!

I'll take a shot: PROBLEM--some people are not thorough in their communications. That wastes the recipients' time and usually engenders unhelpful responses wasting the senders' time too. SOLUTION--I hope posts, like yours, encourage these people to reread PMs before sending and not to hit send until their desires are clearly stated. Write as if the recipient has no idea what you're talking about.

I hope so smile

All this confusion makes my brain hurt!

Jul 12 12 10:49 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 20,930
New York, New York, US


immateria wrote:
Also, I want to point out that I'm not trying to come off as argumentative or ornery.

I don't think you're coming of as argumentative or ornery at all, but I'm confused on one point.  When you say:

immateria wrote:
I've had to turn down shoots with photographers who have quality work because it just wouldn't have benefited my portfolio. I don't enjoy it. If I had unlimited time, energy and resources, I would do it all the time, but I don't have these things.

I don't understand.  If you feel their work is quality, why wouldn't it benefit your portfolio?  Because they are fashion nudes?  If so, how would that detract from your portfolio?

Jul 12 12 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


Paramour Productions wrote:

immateria wrote:
Also, I want to point out that I'm not trying to come off as argumentative or ornery.

I don't think you're coming of as argumentative or ornery at all, but I'm confused on one point.  When you say:


I don't understand.  If you feel their work is quality, why wouldn't it benefit your portfolio?  Because they are fashion nudes?  If so, how would that detract from your portfolio?

Because they weren't nudes. Or, actually, a few times when the photographer's work was of good quality but too much like things I already had in my portfolio.

Jul 12 12 11:30 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Abby Hawkins
Posts: 2,002
Boston, Massachusetts, US


If I were in your shoes, I would politely say, "While this project would not upgrade my book in regards to my personal career, the project sounds interesting; my rates are ..."
Jul 12 12 11:46 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 20,930
New York, New York, US


immateria wrote:

Because they weren't nudes. Or, actually, a few times when the photographer's work was of good quality but too much like things I already had in my portfolio.

But how do you know that's what he would shoot with you?

Jul 12 12 12:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


Paramour Productions wrote:

But how do you know that's what he would shoot with you?

When a photographer asks me to bring clothes (ones I don't own, in fact), I assume they want to shoot me clothed.

Jul 12 12 12:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J I M
Posts: 524
New York, New York, US


immateria wrote:
I get contacted by them from time to time. Sometimes, I get asked to do fashion nudes, and I see examples of what they have in mind, and sure, I can do that. I've loved getting back the images from those shoots.

But once in a while, I get an ambiguous "I want to work with you." from a person who doesn't have any nude work in their work either on here or on their websites, and I don't know what to do with it.

I'm never going to be a fashion model. I'm 26, and while the lower end of my weight spectrum makes me fashion-shaped, I spend about half my time being slender, but definitely not supermodel waify. There is no sense for me to build a portfolio that will not realistically translate into getting me paid work.

I guess I'm confused because, after years of hanging round the forums and getting the "Read newmodels.com" sorts of advice tidbits to models with unrealistic expectations of changing the industry, I don't understand why I get encouraged to step out of the realistic expectations I've set for myself as a model.

Maybe you are looking at it wrong. A photographer asks you to do traditional fashion. Instead of thinking that maybe you don't fit the norm, maybe think that it could be a photographer who wants to change the norm smile

Jul 12 12 12:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
dave phoenix
Posts: 1,272
Phoenix, Arizona, US


immateria wrote:
I get that, but isn't the point of opening a fashion magazine to look at pretty clothes, instead of pretty girls? The girl accentuates the clothing, not the other way around. 'Cause no one is buying girls.

If someone wanted to see pretty clothes, they'd look at clothing catalogs. Don't think of a fashion magazine as a magazine with pictures of pretty clothes, with some fashion models thrown in to accentuate the clothing.

Think of it as a guide to a high-end, luxury lifestyle. Imagine you're an alien and you're coming to earth and you want to be seen as a rich, cool, stylish human. A fashion magazine would help you, even if there was no clothing in there whatsoever - it would show you what your apartment should look like, the kinds of places you should eat and drink, the kind of people you should hang out with, the kind of person you should date, the type of posture and facial expression you should use, everything. It would give you a general feel, a general sense of what kind of style is fashionable now.

Jul 12 12 12:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


jsl wrote:
Maybe you are looking at it wrong. A photographer asks you to do traditional fashion. Instead of thinking that maybe you don't fit the norm, maybe think that it could be a photographer who wants to change the norm smile

Tell that to the average 5'2 130lb aspiring supermodel.

Jul 12 12 12:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J I M
Posts: 524
New York, New York, US


immateria wrote:

I get that, but isn't the point of opening a fashion magazine to look at pretty clothes, instead of pretty girls? The girl accentuates the clothing, not the other way around. 'Cause no one is buying girls.

"Sell the sizzle; not the steak." - David Ogilvy (advertising wiz)

Which means... If Kate Upton wore a burlap sack, one would be wise to buy stock in 'Burlap, Inc.'

Jul 12 12 12:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
immateria
Posts: 15,446
Brooklyn, New York, US


dave phoenix wrote:

If someone wanted to see pretty clothes, they'd look at clothing catalogs. Don't think of a fashion magazine as a magazine with pictures of pretty clothes, with some fashion models thrown in to accentuate the clothing.

Think of it as a guide to a high-end, luxury lifestyle. Imagine you're an alien and you're coming to earth and you want to be seen as a rich, cool, stylish human. A fashion magazine would help you, even if there was no clothing in there whatsoever - it would show you what your apartment should look like, the kinds of places you should eat and drink, the kind of people you should hang out with, the kind of person you should date, the type of posture and facial expression you should use, everything. It would give you a general feel, a general sense of what kind of style is fashionable now.

Well, alright! I'll accept that tongue

Jul 12 12 12:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


immateria wrote:
I was kind of under the impression that fashion was more about, well, the fashion, and not necessarily the body wearing it. No?

Nah.

Fashion is about aspiration. How you create that aspiration in the viewer can vary from wild avant-garde pieces where you can't even see the model's face, to fully nude. In the latter case then yes, it certainly is about the body.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jul 12 12 12:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J I M
Posts: 524
New York, New York, US


immateria wrote:
Tell that to the average 5'2 130lb aspiring supermodel.

You took my meaning incorrectly. I am saying that there could be photographers out there trying to bust stereotypes and you (which is odd as you are the one being asked to pose) are being the naysayer.

What the hell's the sense of modeling if you are going to pigeonhole yourself? Okay, I know your time is limited, so do them as paid sessions if someone asks. Or not, I guess.

EDIT: Wait, I just read your bio. You aren't even doing trade shoots at this time. So am I supposed to believe you turn down paid work because the pics won't benefit your portfolio? Aren't you getting paid to pose? I was assuming you were talking about trade sessions. If you are getting paid offers that require you to pose in a genre you are used to working in and the only difference is you have to keep your clothes on, and are turning them down, you'll get no sympathy from me, sorry.

Jul 12 12 12:53 pm  Link  Quote 
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