As I stand by my statement.
If I get hurt because someone else didn't try to stop it, you better believe I would be beyond pissed. I think you would too.

Considering I've already been in that situation, I can honestly say "No." I don't blame the victim.

I am sorry you were sexually assaulted/harassed. If the victim had reported it it might not have happened to you. Again, I'm not blaming the victim for the crime.
But I do feel it's disgusting and wrong to allow it to happen to someone else by not reporting it. Part of the reason people report things isn't just for the criminal to pay for what they did but also to stop it from happening to others.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

I reported my first incident so that it wouldn't happen to another person, and I was arrested for it. It made me shy away from the second. I don't consider myself a bad person with disgusting intentions. I would never think that way about any woman who goes through that.

Oh yes. We certainly do agree to disagree on this.

My first thought honestly, is just that she didn't get her pictures.

(My second thought, is, hmm wonder if the photographer was creepy to her in some way)

This is a huge flaw with the system and society in general.

The victim has no responsibility to ANYONE but themselves, because what happened to them shouldn't have actually happened. The ENTIRETY of blame falls on the predator, not the victim. Its not someone else's responsibility to keep you safe (with exception to the police, who are largely an after-the-act solution, not a preventative), its everyones responsibility to NOT do something wrong, and everyones responsibility to check the reputations of people they're going to be working with to find out if they're the type of person who does things wrong. Its not their victims responsibility to go on a public crusade to make sure everyone else can fail to do their homework but remain safe.

stop putting YOUR safety into a strangers hands. YOU stop yourself from getting hurt, YOU do YOUR homework on the people you're involved with. YOU figure out how to get out of situations you dont want to be in.

It's shit like this that makes due diligence that much harder to perform and pro escort model/photographers in a frenzy about wanting to bring someone to the shoot for "protection".

Everyone wants models to grow up and put big girl panties on, but in order for them to do that we have to provide away that they can find out if there is a history of "not recommended" photographers.

We only get so many messages a day and to message every single person someone has worked with to find that "needle in a haystack" is ridiculous.

MM already protects many of these predictors by having a "no outing" rule and to make it more difficult by telling models "I won't work with you if you have a 'do not recommend list'" makes it all that much harder to find these creepos.

If we want models to utilize due diligence, we need to give them and support them in the tools given them.

Let the person decide to work with said 'non-recommended" person.

This is true, but on the flip side, BOTH parties need to stop utilizing "do not recommend" lists for bullshit like "he didn't let me bring an escort so without even working with him at all i dont recommend him because he's a creep!" or "I wanted all the pictures on a cd at the end of the shoot plus MY release signed and he wouldn't do it, so I dont recommend" or "we got in a forum disagreement so I dont recommend"

MM doesnt let you say on your profile what specifically you dont recommend a person for, so someone who never actually did anything wrong can go on your do not recommend list and nobody knows why without contacting you directly, and then hoping you're actually telling the truth.

The whole thing requires all of us to act like mature honest adults, and you know thats not happening here. I can put every person in this thread on a do not recommend list and anyone who never saw me say this wouldnt know the difference.

I agree with this however,

If everyone is only allowed to put "Rainbows and Unicorns" on their portfolios about the people they worked with, that creates biased results and could make it hard for the model to do her due diligence in looking up info on this photographer.

You are right, if a model is raped or molested.. it's not the models job to run around and warn people, but how are models supposed to know to contact her if she doesn't put up some sort of "do not recommend" list about her experience.

The photographer certainly is not going to be putting up pics and using her as a credit on HIS portfolio, he is going to try and separate himself from that situation as far as he can and bury and evidence that there was any communication at all between him and said model.

I can sympathise with your situation.  Justice does not work the way they show it on TV and really perverse outcomes like yours are not at all rare - and this is something that I know first hand.

Laura UnBound wrote:
This is true, but on the flip side, BOTH parties need to stop utilizing "do not recommend" lists for bullshit like "he didn't let me bring an escort so without even working with him at all i dont recommend him because he's a creep!" or "I wanted all the pictures on a cd at the end of the shoot plus MY release signed and he wouldn't do it, so I dont recommend" or "we got in a forum disagreement so I dont recommend"

MM doesnt let you say on your profile what specifically you dont recommend a person for, so someone who never actually did anything wrong can go on your do not recommend list and nobody knows why without contacting you directly, and then hoping you're actually telling the truth.

The whole thing requires all of us to act like mature honest adults, and you know thats not happening here. I can put every person in this thread on a do not recommend list and anyone who never saw me say this wouldnt know the difference.

Yes.. not recommended lists for petty things is ridiculous... and that goes for both photographer AND model.
Serious things like rape attempts, groping (or inappropriate touching.), constantly trying to get the model to do things that make her uncomfortable... all would be worthy for a "do not recommend".. but a model that only gets 2 pictures from a TF shoot.. wouldn't let the 'boyfriend' take some shots because he is learning to be a photographer... would be silly. So I see both sides of it.

All I'm saying is, let the person have the 'do not recommend list' and if someone is interested in working with that 'non-recommended' person.. message the person that doesn't recommend them and as for details.. if they are silly petty things.. nothing is stopping you from working with said person.

Also it sort of boils down to credibility as well, unfortunately.

I understand the frustration with not being able to find the bad references on someone (either because they're hard to find or they aren't posted somewhere) but its still not the victims fault someones a shitty person and its not their job to make sure the whole world knows it.

Putting "do not recommend soandso" on your profile and fielding requests to find out more about that is one thing. Being expected to make it your lifes mission to make sure nobody else gets hurt by someone is another. But neither are still your responsibility.

... now imagine hypothetically of course, having a personal conversation in a social environment when a MM member unprovoked, blindsides you with a screaming "in your face" threatening tirade, then bails. Then the next day, mmm I don't know... let's imagine this same member (who you shot with months prior but now is just visiting), without a single word spoken, silences your computer by ripping the wires out of the speakers. You know this is a completely hypothetical situation, because NO ONE is that "bat shit crazy"! 

According to MM, even though the rule says "working experiences" and this imaginary scenario is social, it's valid because of the past perfectly good experiences.

The beautiful part is now this "make believe" member can continue their damage by using the "member disputes" rule maliciously because it's says NOT to post details.

What's this all mean? Two members can have the same great message publically posted about them "DO NOT RECOMMEND".

The two members... An unlucky recipient of an attack, the other grouped with him... the rapist.

Great rule.

Hi Laura, I miss you very much.

Ivr been a victim of sexual abuse. When I was 14, and I was too scared and ashamed to do anythi.g or tell anyone. Ive since promised to myself that if anything like that ever happened again, I would do something abour it, and I would do all I could to prevent it happening from others. Is that good enough for you?

Precisely why I said I would hope that people would ask for details before making a decision on an unexplained comment in a profile.

If I saw that on a model's page, and I was interested in working with the "not recommended" photographer, I would ask both the model and the photographer what happened.

I also have no doubts that there are significantly more "bat shit crazy" models out there than there are rapist photographers. In your hypothetical situation, I think the photographer wouldn't have to worry about losing work from any model that can think for herself and ask a few questions as needed.

Everyone is always telling people to check references about others that they are thinking of working with to avoid no shows and other such problems. 

So if  there are not "do not recommend lists", how are you suppose to know and or find out if there is a chance of a problem with someone.

After shooting for over 7 years now, I only have two models that I do not recommend.  Both of these models pulled a no show / no call the day of the shoot with myself and another Photographer.  Found out later from a couple of Photographers, that saw that I do not recommend them, that they did the same thing to them.

When I have been asked why I do not recommend them, I describe the exact details of the situation and then provide them with the other Photographers name & MM# so that the details can be collaborated with the other people involved. 

If I had seen a list or some kind of statement of not recommend, I might have been able to save the wasted time and money that they both ended up costing me and the other Photographer.

I personally have no problems with such lists!

Keith S Photography wrote:
Hi Laura, I miss you very much.

Not enough to remember my birthday! I no longer recommend you! I'll be by to beat you up in September.

The only problem I have with asking both parties what happened, is that it draws more attention and bad energy to whatever it was between the two. In some cases you may not even be aware you're on a list. I mean, if you made someone's shit list due to a simple misunderstanding, or something you think was actually their fault, and somebody months, years later goes "so I was thinking about working with you, but I heard a bad thing from soandso, and I would like to hear your side of the story before deciding if you're safe/worth my time" a) do you have any inclination to work with this person now? Is this not a huge hassle for you to now have to wonder if the the whole shoot they're thinking "what an asshole soandso was totally right". They've already decided youre probably guilty, why bother even explaining? B)now your animosity towards whoever is giving you a bad rep is rekindled. You're in a constant cycle of drama.

This of course doesn't matter for those who are actually serious assholes who get handsy or assault people, they should be constantly reminded of what they did wrong and know that people are wary of them. But for the bullshit excuses people use, the made up shit, and the shit that was actually their fault rather than the person on their list, it's just more nastiness.

I personally have never, after hearing something that resembled a legit complaint about a photographer, actually felt like I needed their work/money SO bad that I felt compelled to stick myself right in the middle of the two of them and become a part of their issues with each other. I just skip the ones that actually sound like legitimate bad people

Laura UnBound wrote:

Keith S Photography wrote:
Hi Laura, I miss you very much.

Not enough to remember my birthday! I no longer recommend you! I'll be by to beat you up in September.





The only problem I have with asking both parties what happened, is that it draws more attention and bad energy to whatever it was between the two. In some cases you may not even be aware you're on a list. I mean, if you made someone's shit list due to a simple misunderstanding, or something you think was actually their fault, and somebody months, years later goes "so I was thinking about working with you, but I heard a bad thing from soandso, and I would like to hear your side of the story before deciding if you're safe/worth my time" a) do you have any inclination to work with this person now? Is this not a huge hassle for you to now have to wonder if the the whole shoot they're thinking "what an asshole soandso was totally right". They've already decided youre probably guilty, why bother even explaining? B)now your animosity towards whoever is giving you a bad rep is rekindled. You're in a constant cycle of drama.

This of course doesn't matter for those who are actually serious assholes who get handsy or assault people, they should be constantly reminded of what they did wrong and know that people are wary of them. But for the bullshit excuses people use, the made up shit, and the shit that was actually their fault rather than the person on their list, it's just more nastiness.

I personally have never, after hearing something that resembled a legit complaint about a photographer, actually felt like I needed their work/money SO bad that I felt compelled to stick myself right in the middle of the two of them and become a part of their issues with each other. I just skip the ones that actually sound like legitimate bad people

You can learn 2 things by just watching the various forum discussions. You'll find out who can think and make accurate, rational, grown up decisions for themselves without needing to drum up "support" from others before making a decision. You'll also get a good idea of who to avoid because they are a combination of irrational, self centered, fear monger, afraid of their own shadow, can't wait to blame whoever for the first thing they perceive as wrong or inappropriate even when neither actually occurred, tend to have overactive imaginations, drama king/queen etc etc etc.

To sit and watch can be golden.

You handled it like a pro because that's exactly what you are.

indefinite anomaly wrote:
Not everyone works well together.

I know plenty of people that I work well with, and I can instantly see how other models I know wouldn't work well with them, as an example.

This is why it's good to get to know models, to get a feel for their personality and working style. If "chatty model friend A" says a photographer is nervous and awkward and doesn't like talking, then that's the same as a positive review in my book

If I hear from many different people with different personalities and working styles that someone is bad news, then I'll stay away.

This.

I also tend to take "Do Not Recommend" profile notices with a grain of salt, but that's just me.

Someone got hit on
Groped
Bailed on with pics
Acted like a major fucktard

Honestly, if the list is long... there might be a problem with the lister then the person being added to the list.

I only have one model that I do not recommend in the 4 years shooting models...

While YOU might not be blaming the victim, our society - even the police department - often does. Unfortunately, we live in a world where people who work as models (especially nude models, or freelance internet-based), adult entertainers, even legitimate, licensed massage therapists, and anyone who might be somewhat outside the mainstream, people who meet customers on their own time in private locations -  are considered to be "asking for it." The average cop is probably going to raise his eyebrow and think, "What did this crazy bitch think would happen, meeting random men in their homes, and posing for them??!"

I'm not saying that's a valid train of thought, because it isn't, but that's what mainstream America thinks about people like us.

In other words, you can report as many problems with sexual harassment by photographers that you want to report, but that doesn't mean anyone is going to take it seriously. With issues like sexual assault, unless it's actually penetrative rape, there is almost no way to PROVE a person was sexually assaulted. It's likely to stir up more drama, and make life more complicated, and put your own reputation into question.

If someone is, in fact, raped -- there is no question that should be reported, immediately. Otherwise, if someone is sexually harassing you and you report it to the police, you're likely just going to be pissing into the wind, and making your own life and business more difficult to work with.

I agree that it usually looks petty, and the feeling of pettiness grows with longer lists.  However, I do not agree that these things are necessarily the product of misunderstanding. 

Much of the problem lies in not being able to say why the person is not recommended.

If a shoot is arranged and emails about time and place have been exchanged and agreed, then it is hard to see much scope for misunderstanding when one of the parties is a no-show.  I have had plenty of those, as, I expect, has everyone else, so, given that it is "normal" behaviour, maybe it does not warrant a do not recommend.

But how about the model who takes a photographer's images and passes them off as her own to a prominent publisher?  Or the model who is a to party violence serious enough to warrant medical attention?  Both of these have happened to me and I would like to warn others, but the avenues are limited, because, without explanation, a "do not recommend" tends to look petty.

You pick and choose your list-ees carefully. Someone who is violent is obviously much worse than a flake. If youve got a list of 20 flakes and one person who's violent, and you put ALL of them on your profile together, yeah you're going to look ridiculous (and its going to look like maybe YOURE the problem). Flakes..whatever, flakes happen, you get a little miffed but nobody gets HURT, in the grand scheme of things especially when compared to dangerous or hurtful people, flakes dont even make the chart.

Someone with just a single person listed in their profile (especially after they've been around for ages and have obviously worked with a lot of people and have some experience) Im likely to take more seriously than a newbie with everyone she's ever worked with in her life listed on her shitlist, or, someone who's been around for ages with a shitlist taller than I am.

Sweetheart, I learned the hard way that it is against MM rules to mention these negatives experiences on your page and I was treated like a complete pariah by fellow MM's for demanding tougher right for us.  I feel like there is a really nasty double standard here.  About an hour ago I expressed being upset over not being allowing to state on my page "I don't recommend working with this person, please send me a message regarding why" in order to avoid any bad public gossip.  And now people are on here saying that they think charges should be pressed against me if I didn't say something?  How fair is this?  If I hadn't been on my period during a shoot, I would have been raped.  It was when I first started off and didn't have an escort because I was inexperienced and all the police said "you were a model at a photo shoot, what did you expect?"  I have never felt more violated in my life.  But not I'm told charges should be pressed against me even though I'm not allow to mention is publicly?  And then I also am supposedly no able to mention publicly the photographer who never paid me, skipped out on promised promotional events, and even changed his business name.  And even though I know the new name, MM rules prohibit me from protecting other girls.  This honestly brings me to tears when other members tore me to shreds for my opinions not an hour ago and here is another girl saying she wishes people like me would help her.  We should have more rights, especially when things like this are happening to girls more and more.  It's so sad.

It might be a problem with the person making the list, or it might be that they have a lot of interactions.   

If a model has, say, 10 "Do not recommend" statements, that sounds absurd.  But, if she's been on the site for six years, and traveled the country shooting glamour and erotic nudes 5-10 times a week; it's actually a remarkably low proportion of people to have had a problem with.

I've had a large number of flakes / cancellations, but there have been times when I was in planning stages with 15-20 people at one time.  Over a few years, that adds up.

I had a photographer in Ohio list me as not recommended on his profile because he didn't like what I said on the Forums. He had never met me.

I recently had a model start an outing thread about me here because she posted a casting looking for a photographer and then sent me her rates as a bait and switch, and I mentioned it to some other folks. She started a thread with my name and MM number and said she knew I was bad news from the start...

So you are right, you never know what kind if silliness it may be about.

Also, if I see a profile of a model who has a limited number of credits but 3 or more "not recommended" on their list, I have to think that perhaps the problem isn't the photographers.

I'm not saying people don't encounter problem people thru this site or elsewhere, or that if a reference is asked for you shouldn't tell the truth. But the DNR lists turn me off - quite honestly, what are the chances of someone coming across your portfolio and by chance thinking about working with someone you happen to have on that list and then deciding to not shoot with them because you have them on that list? Very, very small.

It actually could end up working against you though. The model I mentioned earlier that started the outing thread about me? That same day I got a PM from a photographer I know who was thinking about hiring her - as in paying her. He basically said he knew me and wanted to know what happened because he knew I treat models very well. He decided to not contact her, so she actually lost a paying gig because she set out to try to discredit me.