Forums > General Industry > My flake detection method

Photographer

Christopher Ward

Posts: 150

Honolulu, Hawaii, US

Clear Light Studio wrote:
My flake detection method has a 90 percent success rate.

I ask the model to book her shoot by makingt a phone call to do so.
The models who fail to do it within the time I ask them to have a 90 percent chance of being a flake. It appears that making a phone call is too much of a challenge for some people. I have learned not to expect anything from a model who can't follow my simple instructions. Flakes are models who cancel at the last minute with some lame excuse like their grandmother is sick. Then there is the classic "no-show."

In contrast to this, women who are from the general public and not "models" always follow my instructions and so far have never flaked out on me. I get 100 percent success.

If you have a flake detection method, I'd like to hear about it.

I TOTALLY agree with you. A simple phone call to discuss things not expressed well in email or print doesn't seem, from my photographer's perspective, to be a monumental effort. ...jus sayin...

Jul 30 12 08:37 pm Link

Photographer

Bureau Form Guild

Posts: 1244

Scranton, Pennsylvania, US

This is freaking hilarious.

Jul 30 12 08:38 pm Link

Model

Nat has a username

Posts: 3590

Oakland, California, US

The phone is the worst form of communication for me. There's no papertrail (versus email/MM messages where you can check back on details). Also, hearing/understanding people over the phone is just not worth the effort unless I already know the person, and have figured out their mannerisms. Written text is much preferred.

If that prevents me from getting a job? Fine. We all have our preferences, I can understand. Also note that a good amount of people who insisted on dealing on the phone ended up talking my ear off, assumed I was going to flake and would talk my ear off about that as well, and usually didn't end up booking with me. (There are of course exceptions to this)

I don't see what's so hard about a few emails back and forth saying when/where to meet, what to bring, and a phone number in case of emergencies.

Jul 30 12 08:52 pm Link

Model

piper tea

Posts: 30

Port Townsend, Washington, US

I'm new to modelling, and young. However, I'm very reliable would never flake out. It may be true that many models are flakes, but assuming that since a model is young & with little experience is lame.
Also, I have had several photographers flake on me already. Would that be because they don't take me seriously since I am young & new to modelling? Or are they just pricks?

Jul 30 12 09:01 pm Link

Photographer

-Koa-

Posts: 5250

Castaner, Puerto Rico, US

Here's one of my revelations.

Models who only text, text, text will be no shows.

What I surmise from this behaviour is that llamas use texting like people use sunglasses. It's a method of hiding. Basically, they are hiding behind their sunglasses, only it's texts. Pretty much applies to e-mails only, just not as much.

-Koa-
www.borikenwarrior.com
www.twitter.com/borikenwarrior

Jul 30 12 09:02 pm Link

Model

Lexxy

Posts: 66

Saint Louis, Missouri, US

Please tell me I'm not the only model that avoids giving out her number until a shoot is serious and definite. I have had so many photographers, who I've allowed to have my number after beginning to set up a shoot, constantly call me daily about shoots and what we are shooting and where and what photos and about me. I understand this process but I also have a life, and I can't be answering calls at 10:30 at night, or 7am when I'm working.

And it's gotten bad, and a lot of these photographers have tried to get onto a personal level with me also, which makes me extremely uncomfortable.

I can see why it would be considered unprofessional but my phone number is only provided if the shoot is definite.

Jul 30 12 09:20 pm Link

Photographer

Wysiwyg Photography

Posts: 6326

Salt Lake City, Utah, US

Lexxy Nichelle wrote:
Please tell me I'm not the only model that avoids giving out her number until a shoot is serious and definite. I have had so many photographers, who I've allowed to have my number after beginning to set up a shoot, constantly call me daily about shoots and what we are shooting and where and what photos and about me. I understand this process but I also have a life, and I can't be answering calls at 10:30 at night, or 7am when I'm working.

And it's gotten bad, and a lot of these photographers have tried to get onto a personal level with me also, which makes me extremely uncomfortable.

I can see why it would be considered unprofessional but my phone number is only provided if the shoot is definite.

Model phone numbers are used for professional inquiries only.

I actually hate talking on the phone.. and will avoid it at all costs..

I will say though, it's sort of a 'trade'... I don't schedule the shoot or confirm it as 100% booked without the phone number... BUT, I don't ask a million models for phone numbers.

I only ask for the number of the intended model for the shoot. if she gives it to me, then I feel more safe about giving her the gig and "confirming" it.

Jul 30 12 09:33 pm Link

Photographer

Borgia

Posts: 766

Cardiff, Wales, United Kingdom

Orca Bay Images wrote:

Well, there's a well thought-out reply.

I'm guessing that you're a sucker for the "dead grandmother" explanation.

No I just don't need to insult people  as you seem to need to because they decide not to work with you.

Jul 30 12 09:47 pm Link

Photographer

Borgia

Posts: 766

Cardiff, Wales, United Kingdom

Jeff Fiore wrote:
The issue with phone calls is that most pro models I know will not discuss a shoot on the phone unless they are already booked. The reason is that they want everything in writing, not left to chance.

Bingo

Jul 30 12 09:48 pm Link

Photographer

Chris Wolf Photography

Posts: 906

Toledo, Ohio, US

Clear Light Studio wrote:

I have no explanations. This happens to me too. It's some sort of undiscovered disease.

LOL... borat

Jul 30 12 10:00 pm Link

Photographer

Charles H Photography

Posts: 39

Augusta, Georgia, US

There is only one thing I do to try and weed out flakes.  They must call me to inform me that they're on their way, otherwise I will not leave my house.  It's so we both know that the other person is going to be at the meeting point.  If they don't call me, I will try calling them, if they have given me their number.  I know some people are worried about just giving their number out and I don't blame them.

Jul 30 12 10:00 pm Link

Photographer

Bureau Form Guild

Posts: 1244

Scranton, Pennsylvania, US

Lexxy Nichelle wrote:
Please tell me I'm not the only llama that avoids giving out her number until a shoot is serious and definite. I have had so many photographers, who I've allowed to have my number after beginning to set up a shoot, constantly call me daily about shoots and what we are shooting and where and what photos and about me. I understand this process but I also have a life, and I can't be answering calls at 10:30 at night, or 7am when I'm working.

And it's gotten bad, and a lot of these photographers have tried to get onto a personal level with me also, which makes me extremely uncomfortable.

I can see why it would be considered unprofessional but my phone number is only provided if the shoot is definite.

I text. Texting works.

Jul 30 12 10:03 pm Link

Photographer

Chris Wolf Photography

Posts: 906

Toledo, Ohio, US

Patrick Walberg wrote:
There could be many reasons for that.  I have had that happen and I move on because it's not worth trying to mind read or guess what it is that caused them to stop responding. 

I will give you some advise that should help.  Don't spend too much time responding though messages and email.  Do try to exchange phone numbers and start communicating by talking on the phone.  Before the Internet, emailing and texting were not an option.  Back in the old days, we had to talk on the phone.  That's just how it was done.  So use technology, but confirm the shoot the old fashioned way.

That's what I try and do. If they don't give me a number I assume they are going to flake. The flake detector works!

Jul 30 12 10:05 pm Link

Photographer

Chris Wolf Photography

Posts: 906

Toledo, Ohio, US

Orca Bay Images wrote:
Could be any one of a number of reasons.

1) Could be a noob in love with the idea of being a model, but who can't deal with the reality of being a model when a real shoot is offered.

2) Could be a noob just testing her attractiveness by seeing how many offers she can get.

3) Could be a spineless girl with an overbearing BF who doesn't want her to shoot with another guy.

4) Could be a model who got a better offer and doesn't have the brains to juggle the schedule or the character to bow out kindly.

Sadly, these may all be true.

Jul 30 12 10:06 pm Link

Photographer

Chris Wolf Photography

Posts: 906

Toledo, Ohio, US

Jeff Fiore wrote:
The issue with phone calls is that most pro models I know will not discuss a shoot on the phone unless they are already booked. The reason is that they want everything in writing, not left to chance.

Never run into that.

Jul 30 12 10:07 pm Link

Photographer

LightWriting

Posts: 401

Long Beach, California, US

indefinite anomaly wrote:
I don't see what's so hard about a few emails back and forth saying when/where to meet, what to bring, and a phone number in case of emergencies.

Typical difficulty I find with TXT/eMail, english is a second language LOL

20 something model wrote:
Me (Wednesday): I would love to schedule a shoot with you. If you would like to shoot, I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of next week. What's your schedule?

Model (Thursday): That would be kool.
Me (Thursday): What days are you available to shoot. I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of next week. Do you have any concepts or wardrobe thoughts you would like to try?

Model (Friday): I got lots clothes.
Me (Friday): So when can you shoot I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of next week.

(Saturday)

Model (Sunday): kool :-)
Me (Sunday): Which date would be "kool"? I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of this coming week.

(Monday)

Model (Tuesday): I'm not interesting in dating.
Me (Tuesday): That's not what I was saying... what DATE (aka day) would work for you? I'm still available Wed/Thur.

(Wednesday)

Model (Thursday): When can we shoot? Are you going to provide Hair and MUA?
Me (Thursday): Never mind.

Model (Friday) You're a jerk

Jul 30 12 10:08 pm Link

Photographer

Chris Wolf Photography

Posts: 906

Toledo, Ohio, US

bmiSTUDIO wrote:
That same research shows that this age group is very spontaneous, meaning they will change their schedule at the drop of a hat if something else comes along that is more appealing. Flaking is a very good illustration of this phenomenon.

So generation whatever-the-frak is just a bunch of flaky idiots incapable of self-control and personal responsibility? That's reassuring.

Jul 30 12 10:11 pm Link

Photographer

New Art Photo

Posts: 701

Los Angeles, California, US

I will give you some advise that should help.  Don't spend too much time responding though messages and email.  Do try to exchange phone numbers and start communicating by talking on the phone.  Before the Internet, emailing and texting were not an option.  Back in the old days, we had to talk on the phone.  That's just how it was done.  So use technology, but confirm the shoot the old fashioned way

______________________________________________

--So true about the phone. I have had girls email me quite extensively, planning the outfit and other details for the shoot; But when I finally ask for a number, they Simply Won't Give It--I've had this happen with both sweet college girls, and  often with Eastern European girls  here in L.A.

I don't like to ask for their numbers immediately, but it seems like  the moment  of decision.
As I get more experienced (and cranky) I'm moving towards asking for their # immediately. It does seem to be the true test of whether the girl is serious about shooting.

Jul 30 12 10:12 pm Link

Photographer

Bureau Form Guild

Posts: 1244

Scranton, Pennsylvania, US

LightWriting wrote:

indefinite anomaly wrote:
I don't see what's so hard about a few emails back and forth saying when/where to meet, what to bring, and a phone number in case of emergencies.

Typical difficulty I find with TXT/eMail, english is a second language LOL


I would have cut bait after the first kool.

Jul 30 12 10:15 pm Link

Photographer

Famous8

Posts: 41

Los Angeles, California, US

LightWriting wrote:

Typical difficulty I find with TXT/eMail, english is a second language LOL

You got trolled! lol! You should had stopped messaging by the second email.

Jul 30 12 10:17 pm Link

Photographer

Mortonovich

Posts: 6209

San Diego, California, US

Oh yeah, as far as texting goes, if there's any

oF tHaT MySpace sPeaK gOINg oN,

not only should you 86 that "model", but any other
"model" she associates with. big_smile

Jul 30 12 10:18 pm Link

Photographer

Chris Wolf Photography

Posts: 906

Toledo, Ohio, US

LightWriting wrote:
Typical difficulty I find with TXT/eMail, english is a second language LOL


Is it sad that conversation looks so familiar?

Jul 30 12 10:24 pm Link

Photographer

Bureau Form Guild

Posts: 1244

Scranton, Pennsylvania, US

I have better success with older models.

Jul 30 12 10:27 pm Link

Model

Nat has a username

Posts: 3590

Oakland, California, US

LightWriting wrote:

Why would you even carry on after the first few exchanges?

Jul 30 12 10:31 pm Link

Photographer

Bureau Form Guild

Posts: 1244

Scranton, Pennsylvania, US

You should have jerked her around and told her you would pay her 80dollars an hour...haha

Jul 30 12 10:36 pm Link

Photographer

Dannielle Levan

Posts: 12865

New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada

Someone who is slow to reply to messages (after the initial one) will probably flake. Unless, they have limited access to internet that's stated, or something like that.

Unwilling to give out phone number = probable flake
No credits/hardly any work but been on MM more than 6month  = FLAAAAKE

Jul 30 12 10:42 pm Link

Photographer

Bureau Form Guild

Posts: 1244

Scranton, Pennsylvania, US

Club kid with fuzzy neon leg Warmers = FLAKE

Jul 30 12 10:59 pm Link

Photographer

NWatts

Posts: 12

Braintree, England, United Kingdom

I always think it such a waste of your time & effort when a model 'flakes' - why bother responding to a casting call if you don't intend to follow it up?  It's one thing to get cold feet, but it's another to just not reply to any follow up communication!

I've given out my phone number in the past & sure enough that seems to be the stumbling block for many, but I have to say in fairness, those that have contacted me via my mobile, I've had 100% success with.

I think I may request a call rather than text in future though, especially if it's a short notice shoot.

Reassuring that models are the same the world over though smile

Jul 30 12 11:19 pm Link

Model

Jen B

Posts: 4474

Phoenix, Arizona, US

Shutterbug5269 wrote:
For me, the warning bells go off when the model in question inexplicably disappears off of the face of the planet.  (especially when there has been a lot of back and forth communication leading up to the shoot date)

Have had that happen to me with a photographer too.

Flakes are such a pain and apparently a total part of the mm world.

What I don't like is, (and this has happened to me twice,) is when I am reeling from a recent flake-out to me and then an amazing photographer decideds to agree to a tf shoot or for me to hire them and then "I" act like a jerk.

Sheeps, makes me wonder if they might be a little oversensative too? Who knows but, flakes are pains and I think dealing with them makes me a pain too.
Jen

Jul 30 12 11:32 pm Link

Photographer

Drew Smith Photography

Posts: 5214

Nottingham, England, United Kingdom

Lexxy Nichelle wrote:
Please tell me I'm not the only model that avoids giving out her number until a shoot is serious and definite. I have had so many photographers, who I've allowed to have my number after beginning to set up a shoot, constantly call me daily about shoots and what we are shooting and where and what photos and about me. I understand this process but I also have a life, and I can't be answering calls at 10:30 at night, or 7am when I'm working.

And it's gotten bad, and a lot of these photographers have tried to get onto a personal level with me also, which makes me extremely uncomfortable.

I can see why it would be considered unprofessional but my phone number is only provided if the shoot is definite.

As a Photographer this is how I work.

Email/MM messages to sort everything out until the week of the shoot then we exchange mobile numbers and contact each other the day prior to the shoot and on the morning of the shoot. Works for me.

Jul 31 12 12:51 am Link

Photographer

Digital Photo PLUS

Posts: 5503

Lorton, Virginia, US

LightWriting wrote:
Me (Wednesday): I would love to schedule a shoot with you. If you would like to shoot, I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of next week. What's your schedule?

Model (Thursday): That would be kool.
Me (Thursday): What days are you available to shoot. I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of next week. Do you have any concepts or wardrobe thoughts you would like to try?

Model (Friday): I got lots clothes.
Me (Friday): So when can you shoot I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of next week.

(Saturday)

Model (Sunday): kool :-)
Me (Sunday): Which date would be "kool"? I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of this coming week.

(Monday)

Model (Tuesday): I'm not interesting in dating.
Me (Tuesday): That's not what I was saying... what DATE (aka day) would work for you? I'm still available Wed/Thur.

(Wednesday)

Model (Thursday): When can we shoot? Are you going to provide Hair and MUA?
Me (Thursday): Never mind.

Model (Friday) You're a jerk

LOL. I had two email exchanges like that within the past month.

Jul 31 12 02:07 am Link

Photographer

WIP

Posts: 15973

Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom

Gennaver wrote:

Flakes are such a pain and apparently a total part of the mm world.

Why ?

Jul 31 12 03:11 am Link

Photographer

Jeff Fiore

Posts: 9225

Brooklyn, New York, US

Antediluvian Design wrote:

I think thou protest too much...haha

I think thou trolls too much

Jul 31 12 03:40 am Link

Photographer

David Stone Imaging

Posts: 1032

Seattle, Washington, US

Clear Light Studio wrote:
If you have a flake detection method, I'd like to hear about it.[/quote

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I've had 2 flakes in ~18 years, and in both cases, these models had posed for me before.  I don't require a pre-meeting, a phone call, or any of that stuff.

My method?  I check references.

Check references?  How...by checking the last city the traveling model worked in?  Any one in these parts knows both Seattle and Portland have exceedingly high flake rates...but it is clear you avoid this kind of model hunt by going for the sure thing...booking a traveling model.

I don't mean to sound unkind...but it is disingenuous to pretend you seem to have this modeling thing figured out when you really aren't in the game to begin with.

Jul 31 12 04:03 am Link

Photographer

Fotographia Fantastique

Posts: 17339

White River Junction, Vermont, US

Lexxy Nichelle wrote:
And it's gotten bad, and a lot of these photographers have tried to get onto a personal level with me also, which makes me extremely uncomfortable.

This is why you should check references first, then if they check out, give your phone number.

Jul 31 12 06:31 am Link

Photographer

Fotographia Fantastique

Posts: 17339

White River Junction, Vermont, US

LightWriting wrote:
Typical difficulty I find with TXT/eMail, english is a second language

20 something model wrote:
Me (Wednesday): I would love to schedule a shoot with you. If you would like to shoot, I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of next week. What's your schedule?

Model (Thursday): That would be kool.
Me (Thursday): What days are you available to shoot. I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of next week. Do you have any concepts or wardrobe thoughts you would like to try?

Model (Friday): I got lots clothes.
Me (Friday): So when can you shoot I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of next week.

(Saturday)

Model (Sunday): kool :-)
Me (Sunday): Which date would be "kool"? I'm available Tue/Wed/Thur of this coming week.

(Monday)

Model (Tuesday): I'm not interesting in dating.
Me (Tuesday): That's not what I was saying... what DATE (aka day) would work for you? I'm still available Wed/Thur.

(Wednesday)

Model (Thursday): When can we shoot? Are you going to provide Hair and MUA?
Me (Thursday): Never mind.

Model (Friday) You're a jerk

LOL, that's not a problem with English being your second language - that's the problem with texting!

Jul 31 12 06:32 am Link

Model

Jen B

Posts: 4474

Phoenix, Arizona, US

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
Why ?

I'm not sure why. Maybe just human nature, see below.

Lexxy Nichelle wrote:
Please tell me I'm not the only llama that avoids giving out her number until a shoot is serious and definite. I have had so many photographers, who I've allowed to have my number after beginning to set up a shoot, constantly call me daily about shoots and what we are shooting and where and what photos and about me. I understand this process but I also have a life, and I can't be answering calls at 10:30 at night, or 7am when I'm working.

And it's gotten bad, and a lot of these photographers have tried to get onto a personal level with me also, which makes me extremely uncomfortable.

I can see why it would be considered unprofessional but my phone number is only provided if the shoot is definite.

Hi,
You are not alone.
I gave my number out a few times and ended up having 1 seemingly manic photographer call and talk, and talk, another one call and I 'thought' we were discussing a shoot but, then he cancelled later and another one called just randomly, without saying he would and just wanted to talk personally.

?? Still, I figure the odds were high but the calls were odd!
Jen

Jul 31 12 07:55 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

I often hate "flake threads" because of several reasons...

1)  There is the assumption that when a model flakes, it's the model's fault.  Sometimes, it is the photographer's fault (e.g. poor communication, inappropriate advances, the photographer might have bad references, and so forth).

2)  Photographers often are smug & snarky in their attitudes towards models.

3)  It amazes me that photographers develop elaborate schemes for "detecting flakes", but these schemes are just an exercise in prejudice. 

4)  It also amazes me that photographers work so hard to avoid checking references.

5)  I know that several people disagree with me, but if you agree to work with a flakey model, it's partially your fault. 

6)  Choose to work only with responsible models, and yes, that sometimes means paying them. 

7)  On the other hand, if you want to work with inexperienced "new faces" who are willing to work for TF*, you are taking your chances and will have to accept what happens.

8)  Seems to me that "flake threads" are the most popular.  It also seems to me that coming onto these forums & bashing models hasn't improved people's flake ratio.

Jul 31 12 09:07 am Link

Model

Lexxy

Posts: 66

Saint Louis, Missouri, US

I wish I could but it seems like everyone has an excuse to not text and only call.

Antediluvian Design wrote:

I text. Texting works.

Jul 31 12 09:30 am Link

Photographer

Cinema Photography

Posts: 4488

Boulder, Colorado, US

I must be lucky, because from MM I have had zero model flakes. A few Hair/make up flakes, but never a model.

My detection method is simple. I look at their ports for recent work and check references as needed. Done.

Jul 31 12 09:34 am Link