This thread was locked on 2012-08-22 18:49:37. Reason: Trainwrecked. Briggings to follow. To the OP: I am sorry for the rudeness of some of our current members.
Looknsee Photography wrote: I could go on, but many of these issues could have been avoided. Some thoughts:
... It's okay to say "no" at some point.
... It is quite possible to say "no" while still being polite & respectful.
... Avoid overextending yourself.
... As a clothing designer, it's okay to select models and to decline some models.
... If things like "model getting the images before you got them" bother you, it is
best to discuss this with the photographer before agreeing to work together.
... If this is your business, take care of your business.
... It's not a good idea to impose upon your H & MU people at the last minute;
they may be even less prepared to improvise than you are.
... Stay focused on the objective of the shoot.
OP, listen to this poster because he's on point. TF shoots are just that TF as in free. Sure you provided outfits but if you want things exactly as you want then PAY . You received the use of models.... free. The use of a studio... free. The use of hair/make-up... free. Were the results like you wanted, no. However the classy and pro thing to do is to remember your first shoot which went well. Thank everyone for their efforts and move on. Instead you appear to be in my mind a bit of a brat and for sure ungrateful. So yeah, go find some other shooters and maybe they will do exactly as you want. Sadly that may meaning paying.
I do appreciate that I am getting a service for free, that is why I have tried my best to accommodate his needs as well- I didn't mention this in the original post but I have loaned him things several times for shoots he had planned with models which I have asked nothing in return for the use of my wardrobe. I have tried to "scratch his back" too as it were.
I am interested to see the varying opinions on this. Thanks to everyone who has responded and helped me out.
Michael Pandolfo wrote: It's already been said and I agree with the comments.
But I have to note that I am flabbergasted you went to the effort to actually CREATE another outfit to accommodate a model you never approved and who was clearly there for only the benefit of the photographer's own agenda.
In the future, think of yourself as a paying client. If you were paying this photographer would you have acted differently? I'd like to think so. Don't adjust your expectations of a shoot simply because it's a TF*.
I see that a lot. People feel because it's a TF* it gives some license for allowing unprofessional behavior.
I think I do feel like on a TF shoot I owe the photographer something extra. It's nice to hear someone who feels this way.
After reading so many different opinions the theme that is standing out to me is "Communicate!" So I will try harder at that next time. And try to grow up a little and not get so bent out of shape- ok?
Its somewhat sad to read from fellow shooters how easy we are to replace. A easy solution might have been to simply say you were not prepared for extra people. Do that in private with the photographer. By going with the flow you've given tacit agreement to what follows. Sometimes life and things hands us lemons. So make lemonade. Was it professional of this man to do, no. Is the designer still receiving something of value, yes. Was it a inconvenience, certainly. It may all work out for the best because she hasn't seen all of the images. Here we have someone who allowed the use of studio space, shot the models and I would guess is doing some retouching.
All for free and who knows if he can use the images. There is a old saying. No good deed goes unpunished. Keep that in mind the next time when you dash to say how easy we can be replaced. Disgusting.
The original agreement was for ONLY 2 models that everyone would trade service's on.
The Designer, Hair and Make Up team should have been compensated, meaning paid for the aggravation of adding the 4th person to the mix.
Since the Designer agreed to trade with her, the addition of the 3rd model the H&MU team should have been paid by the Photographer or 3rd model.
.... but for the Photographer to add in one more model WHO WAS UNANNOUNCED to the rest of the team... then the Designer, H&MU team should have been paid by the Photographer or the 4th model.
Think about it....
You plan a party, invite X-amount of guests, buy just enough food and drink for those invited and then everyone invites 2 more people that you don't know.
Who's paying to feed and drink all the uninvited people you don't know?
I do appreciate that I am getting a service for free, that is why I have tried my best to accommodate his needs as well- I didn't mention this in the original post but I have loaned him things several times for shoots he had planned with models which I have asked nothing in return for the use of my wardrobe. I have tried to "scratch his back" too as it were.
I am interested to see the varying opinions on this. Thanks to everyone who has responded and helped me out.
These are problems you really should try and talk with people about. Just imagine the photographer you've written this about has no ideal how you feel. See's this thread. Even if he isn't a member. You're young and starting out. Try to accept things with a sense of humour and try to let others know your feelings. You indicated you liked the first session. Don't let people from sites like this ruin relationships you can build on with some communication and understanding.
Deconstructika wrote: I don't post much in the forums, but I have a question, and would benefit greatly from the advice of people more experienced than me.
I have shot twice with a local photographer. The first shoot was great, everything went as planned. It was a TF studio shoot of my size small and XSmall garments.
Then we did a second shoot which was supposed to be all medium, large, and XL garments, and the photographer recommended several models. I booked two of the models he suggested and started compiling outfits for them. About a week before the shoot the photographer says he has another model who is similar in size and build to one of the others and would I like to use her as well, to do some shots of the two together. Since it was a TF shoot I felt like I should be accommodating with his wishes, and he is pretty experienced and I felt I could learn from his input. So I agreed the third model could come, and got her size information from her- and it turned out she was really a size small, not medium like I thought. So I really didn't have much for her to wear. So the day before the shoot I ended up in a frenzy making a last-minute outfit for model #3.... plus, here's the worst part, I had to tell the H& MU people there would be one more girl. And they were doing TF too, so I felt bad asking for more from them.
So then the day of the shoot came, and I should mention I always get butterflies from hell on the day of a shoot so I was feeling wretched all day. So I get to the studio that evening and there is model #3, and guess what, she has a friend. The photographer has already been shooting #3 and her friend all day so he is exhausted. He apparently was trying to get this other newbie model a start in the profession so was building her port. And she also was a size small so like I mentioned I had only a couple small items. So now I feel like such a doormat admitting this, but the photographer pushed me into using this newbie model as who I didn't even like, and I had to beg the H&MUA's to do her as well (we had her modeling scarves mostly). I felt terrible about it b/c the H&MUA's came into the project thinking they were just doing 2 experienced models and they ended up having to do 2 newbies as well. So the whole styling process took way longer with so many models, and it was stressful and confusing for me to keep track of dressing everyone. The photographer had told me previously he only shoots two models at a time b/c it's exhausting, and yet he invited these extra 2 models so he was literally about to fall over by the end of the night.
Then I eagerly awaited the photos, and he ended up only posting 2 shots of the newbie model at first, and right away I didn't like them and felt disappointed. I still haven't seen the rest of the photos from the shoot so I hope I like the others better. But I also wanted to mention, he sent copies to this newbie model before he sent them to me- I actually saw them first on her facebook page (and she didn't credit me).
I always feel awkward about taking charge at a shoot, partly because I am new in my area so at every shoot I am meeting everyone for the first time. And I am small in stature and young (I am 28 but look about 20)... and I avoid drama at all cost. I also feel like when its a TF shoot that I should accommodate some of the photographer's requests as well as my own ideas, and I guess that's the root of the issue here.... what is a reasonable level of compromise on a TF shoot?
How should I have handled this? I try to be professional and I just did not know how to handle this situation.
too many changes...this fiasco should have been cancelled. But, in the future, pull the photographer aside and tell him you can only do what you promised and nothing more
Tony Lawrence wrote: Its somewhat sad to read from fellow shooters how easy we are to replace. A easy solution might have been to simply say you were not prepared for extra people. Do that in private with the photographer. By going with the flow you've given tacit agreement to what follows. Sometimes life and things hands us lemons. So make lemonade. Was it professional of this man to do, no. Is the designer still receiving something of value, yes. Was it a inconvenience, certainly. It may all work out for the best because she hasn't seen all of the images. Here we have someone who allowed the use of studio space, shot the models and I would guess is doing some retouching.
All for free and who knows if he can use the images. There is a old saying. No good deed goes unpunished. Keep that in mind the next time when you dash to say how easy we can be replaced. Disgusting.
didn't read what you wrote, but said the same thing
Art of the nude wrote: I'm usually a fan of yours, but this is off base. From the sound of it, she put a lot of work in, "for free" in the sense that the additional models aren't likely to give her any benefit at all.
In a sense I'm just playing devils's advocate here as we have only heard one side of the story - the designer's. For all we know, she could be a nightmare to work with and the photographer might even now be tearing his hair and wishing he never heard of her!
Of course, communication should have been better - on both sides - but the overall impression I got from the OP was that she was expecting to be able to control the shoot and was annoyed that she couldn't. If she wants that level of control then she should be paying. Period.
David Parsons wrote: The whole point of TF is that the participants get something of value out of the shoot, or it's a waste of time and energy. The photographer isn't the only one taking time out of their schedule for 'free'. It's the OP's clothing in the shoot, that the photographer got to use for 'free' as well. The door swings both ways.
Designers - even famous ones - lend clothes for shoots all the time. They do it because they want free pictures or exposure in an editorial (or both).
Even if she put in 20 extra hours making items for the shoot, how many hours is the photographer going to be spending retouching images for her, possibly images he would not use in his own portfolio? For her to start a thread here complaining about the 'shabby' way she feels she has been treated - eg. because the photographer committed the 'sin' of giving an image to the model before he gave it to her - when she doesn't even know yet how many images the photographer is going to retouch for her, seems somewhat brattish and entitled to me.
Maybe in a couple of months if she's only got back a few crappy images she might have good reason to feel hard done by, but as it stands she's just bitching about everything because she feels the shoot wasn't conducted entirely for her benefit. Oh, woe is she!
Designers - even famous ones - lend clothes for shoots all the time. They do it because they want free pictures or exposure in an editorial (or both).
Even if she put in 20 extra hours making items for the shoot, how many hours is the photographer going to be spending retouching images for her, possibly images he would not use in his own portfolio? For her to start a thread here complaining about the 'shabby' way she feels she has been treated - eg. because the photographer committed the 'sin' of giving an image to the model before he gave it to her - when she doesn't even know yet how many images the photographer is going to retouch for her, seems somewhat brattish and entitled to me.
Maybe in a couple of months if she's only got back a few crappy images she might have good reason to feel hard done by, but as it stands she's just bitching about everything because she feels the shoot wasn't conducted entirely for her benefit. Oh, woe is she!
This isn't the case here from what I can see. This wasn't a photographer pulling clothes from a designer, it's a photographer and designer (supposedly) working together on a shoot.
Deconstructika wrote: I don't post much in the forums, but I have a question, and would benefit greatly from the advice of people more experienced than me.
...
.... what is a reasonable level of compromise on a TF shoot?
How should I have handled this? I try to be professional and I just did not know how to handle this situation.
Hello,
I am sorry this happened. It sure sounds like the photographer upped the ante of pushing his wants each time you accomadated one! Perhaps the only way to avoid it with 'this' one is to not allow any additions or changes. A simple, "sorry, I don't allow changes" or "sorry, no, I won't." I think face to face only in this is best. If he, or anyone, tries to sway you beyond those replies they aren't being respectful to your limits or preferences.
I wonder if the hair and mua got credited either! !
Maybe recall this situation the next time anyone tries to take without clearly respecting your needs and without reciprocating.
-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote: Unless you're paying it's the photographer's shoot, not yours.
If he wants to shoot other models then that's his prerogative - you don't get to choose the models.
If he wants to send images to models first then again, that's his prerogative - you have no more claim on the images than they do.
If you want to be sure how many images you're going to get then you need to agree that with the photographer in advance.
Overall it sounds to me as if you need to chill out a bit, adopt a more professional and less butthurt attitude, and be grateful for what you're getting... effectively for free.
I normally agree with you (and here comes the) but maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation or need to raise my reading comprehension.
I was under the impression that this was a shoot the OP organized for the purposes of promoting her clothing line? She contacted the photographer and he agreed to the terms of the shoot. In that case, the photographer is a hired gun and the OP is the client. She is the one who determines what products are shot, how many, models, etc.
Now, if the photographer had set this up and contacted the OP for a TF* shoot then I would completely agree. His models, his terms, etc.
Darren Brade
Posts: 1,568
London, England, United Kingdom
OP,
Shoots can change last minute and you'll be remembered for how you cope (good or bad), you did well to have coped the way you did. The only way to guarantee the shoot goes the way you want is to pay otherwise you do need to be prepared to compromise.
Did he do wrong? Yes, this is still TF and not just HIS TF. You should have just stuck with 3 models and not felt obligated to provide for the 4th model. If he brings someone along not part of the shoot, he should not force this option. You need to be more assertive.
Even though this a TF shoot, it is just wrong to send them to the models before anyone else, they should be going to the organizer of the shoot who then distributes them.
I suggest the next time you discuss working with him, calmly tell him why not.
Darren Brade
Posts: 1,568
London, England, United Kingdom
Deconstructika wrote: Thank you for that.
I already felt like I probably did not want to work with him again.... I have plenty of others interested. I actually think I want to start mailing things to photographers who live in other states b/c that way they coordinate everything and I don't have to get stressed about it. Of course I am sure that will have its pitfalls as well- I wouldn't be there to style things and make sure the dresses don't get wrinkled...
I strongly suggest against this, you should be sending them to stylists not photographers, unless you know they work with one.
I do appreciate that I am getting a service for free, that is why I have tried my best to accommodate his needs as well- I didn't mention this in the original post but I have loaned him things several times for shoots he had planned with models which I have asked nothing in return for the use of my wardrobe. I have tried to "scratch his back" too as it were.
I am interested to see the varying opinions on this. Thanks to everyone who has responded and helped me out.
STOP IT!!! You are NOT GETTING ANYTHING FOR FREE! Your time and skills are valuable. This is supposed to have been a fair trade. It's your clothes you wanted modeled, not his. You agreed to let him use the images as compensation for his efforts. You own the shoot.
Do not EVER WORK WITH HIM AGAIN. He took advantage of you which in turn means he has no respect for you. He hit you with model #3 at the last minute, made you make outfits which were not in your original plan and then threw in a 4th model out of thin air. He turned your shoot into his shoot.
Photographers are a dime a dozen, clothing designers are not.
Grow a pair and dump him.
Geez, I would NEVER do that to anyone. It's unethical, insulting and a total lack of respect.
Michael Pandolfo wrote: I was under the impression that this was a shoot the OP organized for the purposes of promoting her clothing line? She contacted the photographer and he agreed to the terms of the shoot. In that case, the photographer is a hired gun and the OP is the client. She is the one who determines what products are shot, how many, models, etc.
I certainly agree it sounds as if that's how she wanted it.
What I don't see is any mention of payment, as would be expected where there is a client and a 'hired gun'. That's because there was no payment as it was a TF shoot, yet the OP seemed to want to run it as if she was paying.
We haven't heard the photographer's side of any of this and yet I see many photographers jumping to the defence of this poor abused designer as if they actually knew what went on. Very strange.
Art of the nude wrote: I'm usually a fan of yours, but this is off base. From the sound of it, she put a lot of work in, "for free" in the sense that the additional models aren't likely to give her any benefit at all.
In a sense I'm just playing devils's advocate here as we have only heard one side of the story - the designer's. For all we know, she could be a nightmare to work with and the photographer might even now be tearing his hair and wishing he never heard of her!
Of course, communication should have been better - on both sides - but the overall impression I got from the OP was that she was expecting to be able to control the shoot and was annoyed that she couldn't. If she wants that level of control then she should be paying. Period.
Designers - even famous ones - lend clothes for shoots all the time. They do it because they want free pictures or exposure in an editorial (or both).
Even if she put in 20 extra hours making items for the shoot, how many hours is the photographer going to be spending retouching images for her, possibly images he would not use in his own portfolio? For her to start a thread here complaining about the 'shabby' way she feels she has been treated - eg. because the photographer committed the 'sin' of giving an image to the model before he gave it to her - when she doesn't even know yet how many images the photographer is going to retouch for her, seems somewhat brattish and entitled to me.
Maybe in a couple of months if she's only got back a few crappy images she might have good reason to feel hard done by, but as it stands she's just bitching about everything because she feels the shoot wasn't conducted entirely for her benefit. Oh, woe is she!
I started this thread to ask other's opinions, not to complain, but I apologize if I cam off as whiney. I honestly appreciate your feedback though.
I might also add, the only reason I was disappointed with the first two photos was purely the model. The photos were beautiful, retouched well, and lovely in every way- but the model just did not cut it for me and I regretted afterward that I didn't stand up for myself a little better.
STOP IT!!! You are NOT GETTING ANYTHING FOR FREE! Your time and skills are valuable. This is supposed to have been a fair trade. It's your clothes you wanted modeled, not his. You agreed to let him use the images as compensation for his efforts. You own the shoot.
Do not EVER WORK WITH HIM AGAIN. He took advantage of you which in turn means he has no respect for you. He hit you with model #3 at the last minute, made you make outfits which were not in your original plan and then threw in a 4th model out of thin air. He turned your shoot into his shoot.
Photographers are a dime a dozen, clothing designers are not.
Grow a pair and dump him.
Geez, I would NEVER do that to anyone. It's unethical, insulting and a total lack of respect.
C'mon, Koa do you feel you are a dime a dozen? I don't and I would hope that as a community we respect each other. Based on the OP this was a TF shoot and she was happy with the results from their first session. Rather then someone trying to take advantage he sounds like someone trying to help models and a designer. The ideal is to build bridges not destroy them. These issues can be easily fixed and as far as a dime a dozen. A lot of photographers with studios don't do TF. They can't afford too. Designers can struggle to find people with decent work who do TF.
The OP had a good first experience with this person. The second not so much. Rather then try and repair what could be a positive working relationship going forward most think its okay to throw it away. Some of you might want to read about some of our most well known fashion shooters and the iron fisted magazine editors and art directors they worked with. If they adopted the walk away approach we might not heard of several.
C'mon, Koa do you feel you are a dime a dozen? I don't and I would hope that as a community we respect each other. Based on the OP this was a TF shoot and she was happy with the results from their first session. Rather then someone trying to take advantage he sounds like someone trying to help models and a designer. The ideal is to build bridges not destroy them. These issues can be easily fixed and as far as a dime a dozen. A lot of photographers with studios don't do TF. They can't afford too. Designers can struggle to find people with decent work who do TF.
The OP had a good first experience with this person. The second not so much. Rather then try and repair what could be a positive working relationship going forward most think its okay to throw it away. Some of you might want to read about some of our most well known fashion shooters and the iron fisted magazine editors and art directors they worked with. If they adopted the walk away approach we might not heard of several.
good point. I may shoot with him again in the future.
the only thing i can say and it's probably dumb and only a tiny part of the issue, but you could always email the models and politely request that they give you credit on the photo. at least that way you may get more publicity, which could be a sliver of sunlight in this whole mess (unless you really are ashamed of the photos and don't want to be identified with them at all.)
Just wondering why do you sign off as Stefano when you are about as Italian as Yorkshire pudding .. unless am very much mistaken .. Your earlier profile was I believe Steve Bruce .... somewhat confusing - What prompted the name change, just out of interest ?
Clear communication being definately the key to effective co-ordination and management
Tony Lawrence wrote: C'mon, Koa do you feel you are a dime a dozen? I don't and I would hope that as a community we respect each other. Based on the OP this was a TF shoot and she was happy with the results from their first session. Rather then someone trying to take advantage he sounds like someone trying to help models and a designer. The ideal is to build bridges not destroy them. These issues can be easily fixed and as far as a dime a dozen. A lot of photographers with studios don't do TF. They can't afford too. Designers can struggle to find people with decent work who do TF.
The OP had a good first experience with this person. The second not so much. Rather then try and repair what could be a positive working relationship going forward most think its okay to throw it away. Some of you might want to read about some of our most well known fashion shooters and the iron fisted magazine editors and art directors they worked with. If they adopted the walk away approach we might not heard of several.
Tony,
Unfortunately, we photographers are a dime-a-dozen.
I had an older couple hire me to do their 50th wedding anniversary. It was supposed to be a very small exchange of vows and then a party afterwards. The day prior, I was contacted and told it was at the church. Yes, a full blown wedding.
That's not all.
At the church, just minutes before the event was supposed to start, I was approached by a family member and told, "We will be celebrating a quinceañera at the same time". Yep, I now had a wedding and a quinceañera on my hands at the exact same time.
And that was not the first time something like that happened.
Basically, a person gets tired of being taken advantage of. And from what I see, this is exactly what this photographer did to the OP.
Sorry, sore point. I burn up when I see this stuff happen. Old feelings come whooshing back.
Again, she can find someone else to do the work for her. I don't see why she needs to take this just because he may have the equipment and studio to do the work in.
When you get down to it, I would not have done that to anybody especially knowing what it feels like from the receiving end.
Lizzy Borden wrote: the only thing i can say and it's probably dumb and only a tiny part of the issue, but you could always email the models and politely request that they give you credit on the photo. at least that way you may get more publicity, which could be a sliver of sunlight in this whole mess (unless you really are ashamed of the photos and don't want to be identified with them at all.)
I actually did do this- I wrote the newbie model and told her thank you for working with me, and she may not know everyone's names so I told her how to credit everyone and was super nice and polite about it. She never responded but hopefully she'll credit the photos.
Tony,
Unfortunately, we photographers are a dime-a-dozen.
I had an older couple hire me to do their 50th wedding anniversary. It was supposed to be a very small exchange of vows and then a party afterwards. The day prior, I was contacted and told it was at the church. Yes, a full blown wedding.
That's not all.
At the church, just minutes before the event was supposed to start, I was approached by a family member and told, "We will be celebrating a quinceañera at the same time". Yep, I now had a wedding and a quinceañera on my hands at the exact same time.
And that was not the first time something like that happened.
Basically, a person gets tired of being taken advantage of. And from what I see, this is exactly what this photographer did to the OP.
Sorry, sore point. I burn up when I see this stuff happen. Old feeling come whooshing back.
Again, she can find someone else to do the work for her. I don't see why she needs to take this just because he may have the equipment and studio to do the work in.
When you get down to it, I would not have done that to anybody especially knowing what it feels like from the receiving end.
Ouch, that's pretty horrific. Weddings are already tough without throwing a quinceanara on top of it.
I will say that at least on MM, there is probably a ratio of at least 20 photographers: 1 clothing designer. I don't know if that ratio applies to the so called real world, but I certainly have felt sought-after in my interactions on MM, like most photographers would love to work with me.
Side note- I love MM, I love that we have a place where these issues can be hashed out.
Tony,
Unfortunately, we photographers are a dime-a-dozen.
I had an older couple hire me to do their 50th wedding anniversary. It was supposed to be a very small exchange of vows and then a party afterwards. The day prior, I was contacted and told it was at the church. Yes, a full blown wedding.
That's not all.
At the church, just minutes before the event was supposed to start, I was approached by a family member and told, "We will be celebrating a quinceañera at the same time". Yep, I now had a wedding and a quinceañera on my hands at the exact same time.
And that was not the first time something like that happened.
Basically, a person gets tired of being taken advantage of. And from what I see, this is exactly what this photographer did to the OP.
Sorry, sore point. I burn up when I see this stuff happen. Old feeling come whooshing back.
Again, she can find someone else to do the work for her. I don't see why she needs to take this just because he may have the equipment and studio to do the work in.
When you get down to it, I would not have done that to anybody especially knowing what it feels like from the receiving end.
Ouch, that's pretty horrific. Weddings are already tough without throwing a quinceanara on top of it.
I will say that at least on MM, there is probably a ratio of at least 20 photographers: 1 clothing designer. I don't know if that ratio applies to the so called real world, but I certainly have felt sought-after in my interactions on MM, like most photographers would love to work with me.
Side note- I love MM, I love that we have a place where these issues can be hashed out.
Laura UnBound
Posts: 24,724
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I find it strange that everyone is on about "it was free so you don't get a say"
No, it wasn't free. It was TF. If anyone involved at the get-go believed what another party was contributing wouldn't be equally beneficial they ought to have charged them or not worked with them.
The photographer, two models, the stylists and the hair/makeup agreed to a plan. When one person goes and fucks that plan up for everyone else, it's no longer mutually beneficial for everyone involved and whoever did the screwing up should be either stopped, or they need to pay someone something for their extra effort.
It doesn't matter that the photographer also had to work harder because he had more models, HE was the only one who WANTED the other models, so that's HIS fault. What the photographer did on his own whims without consulting everyone else first was out of line and disrespectful. Neither the first two models, the stylist, nor the makeup team should be told to just suck it up because they didn't pay for the photographers services, they all entered into a deal with the understanding that everyone was of equal benefit/value. One party decided they're suddenly more valuable so they get to screw everybody else is bull. If the stylist/makeup team haven't gotten photos yet, presumably neither have the first models, yknow, the ones that were actually booked and supposed to be there. The photographers going off on his own spiral and being totally neglective to what should have been his top priorities.
Everyone should have spoken up, yes, but they didn't deserve it because it was "free", it wasn't free, tf isn't free. If the photographer felt undervalued he should have given rates right off the bat, not ran with his own plan last minute
Laura UnBound wrote: I find it strange that everyone is on about "it was free so you don't get a say"
No, it wasn't free. It was TF. If anyone involved at the get-go believed what another party was contributing wouldn't be equally beneficial they ought to have charged them or not worked with them.
The photographer, two models, the stylists and the hair/makeup agreed to a plan. When one person goes and fucks that plan up for everyone else, it's no longer mutually beneficial for everyone involved and whoever did the screwing up should be either stopped, or they need to pay someone something for their extra effort.
It doesn't matter that the photographer also had to work harder because he had more models, HE was the only one who WANTED the other models, so that's HIS fault. What the photographer did on his own whims without consulting everyone else first was out of line and disrespectful. Neither the first two models, the stylist, nor the makeup team should be told to just suck it up because they didn't pay for the photographers services, they all entered into a deal with the understanding that everyone was of equal benefit/value. One party decided they're suddenly more valuable so they get to screw everybody else is bull. If the stylist/makeup team haven't gotten photos yet, presumably neither have the first models, yknow, the ones that were actually booked and supposed to be there. The photographers going off on his own spiral and being totally neglective to what should have been his top priorities.
Everyone should have spoken up, yes, but they didn't deserve it because it was "free", it wasn't free, tf isn't free. If the photographer felt undervalued he should have given rates right off the bat, not ran with his own plan last minute
I think that the photographer probably didn't realize he was stressing me out- the only indication I gave is that I DID tell him I didn't like making the H&MUAs do extra work, and he didn't really respond or offer to help. I wish I had communicated better. That is the main lesson I am taking from this.
I think that the photographer probably didn't realize he was stressing me out- the only indication I gave is that I DID tell him I didn't like making the H&MUAs do extra work, and he didn't really respond or offer to help. I wish I had communicated better. That is the main lesson I am taking from this.
Ok, I am starting to see why the photographer took advantage of the situation, you seem to be the non-confrontational and indecisive type.
Her personality is not why he decided to be a jerk. Don't make it her fault someone acted shitty towards her and two models and the hair/makeup people. Everyone should have put their feet down, but more importantly he shouldn't have been disrespecting the whole team.
Someone is a jerk because they want to be, not because you fail to tell them to stop being that way.
Gee whiz! Now this shooter is a disrespectful jerk. I seem to recall he's been called a GWC and I have learned photographers are a dime a dozen. Despite the colourful labels he's been given could it just be a person who bit off more then they should. We know the OP was happy with their first session. It seems to me rather then being a as^hole or a jerk you have a person who's trying to help new models and a new designer get started.
The original agreement was for ONLY 2 models that everyone would trade service's on.
The Designer, Hair and Make Up team should have been compensated, meaning paid for the aggravation of adding the 4th person to the mix.
Since the Designer agreed to trade with her, the addition of the 3rd model the H&MU team should have been paid by the Photographer or 3rd model.
.... but for the Photographer to add in one more model WHO WAS UNANNOUNCED to the rest of the team... then the Designer, H&MU team should have been paid by the Photographer or the 4th model.
Think about it....
You plan a party, invite X-amount of guests, buy just enough food and drink for those invited and then everyone invites 2 more people that you don't know.
Who's paying to feed and drink all the uninvited people you don't know?
Sure as hell isn't going to be me.
This is the second of two excellent analyses of the situation. There was an agreement from which one party deviated and that party should take responsibility for the deviations and make good to those adversely affected.
Looknsee Photography wrote: A very long post. A solution is not all that complex:
Deconstructika wrote: How should I have handled this?
I suggest the following:
Deconstructika wrote: ... About a week before the shoot the photographer says he has another model who is similar in size and build to one of the others and would I like to use her as well, to do some shots of the two together?
You could say, "No, thank you -- photographing two models is about all the bandwidth I can handle at this time. Maybe next time..."
Deconstructika wrote: ... it turned out she was really a size small, not medium like I thought.
You could say, "I'm sorry, but I have a set of clothes that we need photographed, and you are not the right size. Maybe next time..."
Deconstructika wrote: guess what, she has a friend.
You could say, "I'm sorry, but I'm not prepared to work with an additional model; I have a limited number of setups prepared. Maybe next time...".
You could take him aside & say, "I'm more than a little concerned -- you look tired already, and we haven't yet started. Can we simplify this session and work with these additional models on another day, when we are better prepared? Maybe next time..."
I could go on, but many of these issues could have been avoided. Some thoughts:
... It's okay to say "no" at some point.
... It is quite possible to say "no" while still being polite & respectful.
... Avoid overextending yourself.
... As a clothing designer, it's okay to select models and to decline some models.
... If things like "model getting the images before you got them" bother you, it is
best to discuss this with the photographer before agreeing to work together.
... If this is your business, take care of your business.
... It's not a good idea to impose upon your H & MU people at the last minute;
they may be even less prepared to improvise than you are.
... Stay focused on the objective of the shoot.
Good learning experience. Good luck.
So far, this thread has yielded two excellent analyse, with corresponding advice. The above is the first such analysis.
To the OP, I think the bottom line is that there are several points where you could have, and probably should have, expressed some disquiet at a change that was being made to the original agreement.
I appreciate that you prefer to avoid conflict but I think you will find that, in the long run, that approach generates its own conflict.
The suggestions above as to what to say to the photographer are very well phrased. They express your concern without creating a demand.
Another approach is to preface what you need to say with "I would prefer" as In "I would prefer that we stick with two models/have the models fit the outfits I have already made/do not expand the shoot with a fourth model/do not overtax the MUAs with unexpected models, etc."
You come across as non-defensive and open to learning, so I think that your experience with this thread will help kit you out to deal more effectively with similar situations in the future.
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