This thread was locked on 2012-08-22 18:49:37. Reason: Trainwrecked. Briggings to follow. To the OP: I am sorry for the rudeness of some of our current members.
"They" didn't cast the shoot. The photographer did. But now we're blaming him for... choosing models.
Yes, it meant more work for everyone, including the photographer. And everyone said yes. And if everyone likes the photos, then everyone got more out of it. Not necessarily a bad thing here.
They didn't tell him no. Let me repeat that for the third time: everyone said yes, nobody said no.
Yes, everyone was working for free. Including the photographer, who seems to be the scapegoat for everything.... even though everything seems to have gone well. That bastard!
Seriously, if you can't get why it would suck to make a bunch of work for other people at the last minute so you could get your newbie model friend into the shoot, then I can't explain it to you. Some people are considerate of other people they work with, some people are not.
And you don't have to repeat anything. I read the thread, I know she didn't say no. I think most people agree she should have pushed back. It's not always easy for people to stand up for themselves. But the fact that she said yes doesn't mean that it wasn't kind of lame for him to ask it of her anyway. That's why she was posting here, to find out if she could have handled the situation better.
I don't think he's a bastard but I do think it's kind of rude to pull that on people you're collaborating with.
Thanks for taking so much time to analyze this situation.
I really admire your work, and it makes me sad that a talented woman like yourself feels the need to leave thinly veiled insults to a working mother who is just starting out in the industry. You can GLORY in the fact that you succeeded in hurting my feelings. OK? You win. You win. I am a terrible person, clearly, and I should just give up on everything. (sarcasm)
I was asking about TF shoots, and you don't do TF, so I am not sure if you are really the best authority on the subject.
Or you could stop complaining and be grateful for the fact you got something for nothing.
Herman Surkis
Posts: 6,220
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Deconstructika wrote:
The photographer didn't cast the shoot- he recommended models he had worked with previously and I contacted them myself, set up the conditions of the TF trade, set up the date, found the H&MUAs, spent a month organizing the shoot and sewing clothing for it.
I never said he was a bastard, geez! People keep trying to put words in my mouth- "disaster", "fiasco", etc....... It was no disaster, just didn't go as well as every other shoot I have done, which have all been TF and always went fine. He's a nice guy, I just wondered if anyone else thought he asked a bit much of me and I think most people agree that he did go a little too far.
This is MM, a simple question will always get a convoluted, unreasonable, and decidedly not simple answer.
Herman Surkis
Posts: 6,220
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Tony Lawrence wrote:
Thinly veiled? You're funny and a good designer. I know lots of talented shooters with studios who have done fashion and commercial work and yet have been willing to do as this man and play it forward. Lots of people have limited cash when they start out and that you are a working mother may be in that position. What you are seeing is less about you then how others may see themselves. Frankly you've been polite and respectful in your replies. Don't take it personally. MM forums are often a trial by fire.
Damn it Tony, please stop.
I am having to completely agree with you ... again.
Herman Surkis
Posts: 6,220
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
stylecreative wrote:
As a clothing designer, you do have the right as the photographer is shooting your garments, you need to negotiate what happens, photographers must not have full control, as there ego's get in the way and they think they own the shoot! If they do think that, there are 100's of photographers everywhere! Look around you & see how many people want to get into the fashion photographic halls!
Your attitude is fine, ignore the above comment! I say this as the skill you need to design garments takes time & creativity, where as anyone with fingers can use a camera, professionally after a some time....
Ouch, she does make a point to some extant but she might of ever done it a little with the whole "photographers must not have full control, as there ego's get in the way and they think they own the shoot!" maybe she hasn't worked with the right photographers?
Not all photographers are the same and not many people realize that. Meh
Erlinda
Posts: 5,740
London, England, United Kingdom
J Henry wrote:
Oh you have got to be kidding me. Just like anyone can use scissors and a needle, right?
She does make a very good point. A lot of people take up photography as a hobby because it's a fun thing to do and it's "easy" I'm shocked you are offended by this when 99% of the photographers on MM are amateurs. It's true. Clicking a button isn't hard. Now having a vision and being good enough to capture is a whole other level
Star wrote: i guess it isn't neener-neener, it is well fucking duh!
I adore that. I wouldn't argue with anything you said about what should have been done.
So, maybe we can agree on a different phrase. Instead of "you got what you paid for" we can say, "what you got was predictable."
And you couldn't be more correct that viewers and clients can tell the difference in a professionally shot lookbook than one Cousin Zed shot 2 days after getting his Instraprint business cards.
I can't blame Dekon for setting up this arrangement though. I also think she's learned a valuable lesson. Yes, she got a TF* shoot but at what cost (and I do mean real cost). So much time, effort and work wasted. Only Dekon can answer if it was worth it.
But I'd like to believe that paying scale to a pro would have garnered far better results, smoother communication and less time in the forums searching for answers. I would much rather pay $1-2k and get the deliverables and quality results on my terms.
You and Star as you appear in this thread (along with a couple of others) are fine examples of this. She shouldn't generalize this to all photographers but the shoe fits many.
Is a TF getting something for nothing?
I get her time. She gets my time.
I get his expertise. He gets my expertise. Or lack there of.
Does the side of the camera we are on determine who gets treated with dignity and respect?
The OP was blindsided by the photographer (if I superimpose how I would feel) and next time she will have the ability to use this previous experience to either push back or fold. It will be her decision.
I wonder how would the photographer would have felt if the OP had injected two extra models? Or any of the others who say he controlled the shoot.
Treat other people as you would have them treat you. Has this basic kindergarten lesson been lost? Or should it be: treat other people as they have treated you. Which side of the camera deserves dignity and respect? All sides. Gee whiz guys.
Erlinda
Posts: 5,740
London, England, United Kingdom
Hunter Wald wrote: Is a TF getting something for nothing?
I get her time. She gets my time.
I get his expertise. He gets my expertise. Or lack there of.
Does the side of the camera we are on determine who gets treated with dignity and respect?
The OP was blindsided by the photographer (if I superimpose how I would feel) and next time she will have the ability to use this previous experience to either push back or fold. It will be her decision.
I wonder how would the photographer would have felt if the OP had injected two extra modes? Or any of the others who say he controlled the shoot.
Treat other people as you would have them treat you. Has this basic kindergarten lesson been lost? Or should it be: treat other people as they have treated you. Which side of the camera deserves dignity and respect? All sides. Gee whiz guys.
I never went to kindergarten but I know that lesson. How can that be?
-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote: Unless you're paying it's the photographer's shoot, not yours.
If he wants to shoot other models then that's his prerogative - you don't get to choose the models.
If he wants to send images to models first then again, that's his prerogative - you have no more claim on the images than they do.
If you want to be sure how many images you're going to get then you need to agree that with the photographer in advance.
Overall it sounds to me as if you need to chill out a bit, adopt a more professional and less butthurt attitude, and be grateful for what you're getting... effectively for free.
This is completely off base. A good photographer, in the sense that he or she both knows what they're doing and is a decent human being understands the collaborative nature of TF* shoots. I've shot with some amazing photographers who were perfectly comfortable taking a concept I had and collaborating on it. Did they want to be informed of the team? Of course. In some instances did they want to help select the models? Certainly. Where there cases where there were disagreements? Yes. But the difference is that at the end of the day what occurred when I arrived on set was completely different then what the OP had to suffer through because there was no arrogance in the sense that no one I've worked with has ever assumed that just because they were the photographer they got to make every decision. Clearly there are photographers who want to micromanage but I've learned that they also tend to be egomaniacal and insufferable to work with.
OP take the following lessons away from this:
1) It's okay to say "no". You were the one doing all of the legwork pre-shoot and being overly stressed because of unrealistic expectations is no good.
2) Get everything in writing. Even for a TF* shoot make sure you know when you'll be getting images and if you'll have any say in terms of selection. Some photographers may send you proofs and allow you to make selects but I've also worked with people who ask you what you need and send you shots based off of that.
3) Realize that the act of wielding a camera doesn't make someone above reproach and if a photographer does something you don't like say something about it.
4) Don't be afraid to cancel. It sucks when you've been prepping for weeks but sometimes it's better to step back and regroup.
Dan K Photography wrote: You and Star as you appear in this thread (along with a couple of others) are fine examples of this.
Thanks for the compliment Dan. I'm flattered that you feel I have anything in common with Star.
Personally, I'm shocked and dismayed at how many photographers seem willing (in this thread anyway) to compromise their trade/TF shoots and give away control to somebody else just because they need some items of clothing!
Some of you people need to learn to stand up for yourselves and say "no" to the shrill demands of these needle-wielding harpies before it's too late and they have you pegged as easy targets for free lookbooks and all manner of other commercial shoots they should really be paying for.
Tiffany_B wrote: I've shot with some amazing photographers who were perfectly comfortable taking a concept I had and collaborating on it. Did they want to be informed of the team? Of course. In some instances did they want to help select the models? Certainly. Where there cases where there were disagreements? Yes. But the difference is that at the end of the day what occurred when I arrived on set was completely different then what the OP had to suffer through because there was no arrogance in the sense that no one I've worked with has ever assumed that just because they were the photographer they got to make every decision.
Pay me and you can tell me which models to shoot, where to shoot them, what colour background to use and anything else you like. If you want to fuck up the shoot by using a second-rate MUA and your sister's daughters as models instead of hiring somebody decent, that's fine too. You can choose all the worst images from my selects for retouching and I will retouch them without question. My contract will specify that I'm responsible for the photography (and optionally the retouching) and nothing else. Your dollar, your shoot.
But if you want to trade with me then you had better understand from the outset that it's MY shoot and you are being brought in like everybody else to provide a service in return for images. I'll choose the models (perhaps giving you a few options), I'll choose the location, the MUA and the hairstylist and will inform you of all these choices as far in advance as I can. If you don't like my choices then nobody's forcing you to go through with the shoot. After the shoot is wrapped I will choose the images for retouching and will send you my finished results after spending probably a few DAYS retouching them. Throughout this process I will do everything in my power to get the best images possible for me and for everybody, but it's still MY dollar and therefore MY shoot.
This is completely off base. A good photographer, in the sense that he or she both knows what they're doing and is a decent human being understands the collaborative nature of TF* shoots. I've shot with some amazing photographers who were perfectly comfortable taking a concept I had and collaborating on it. Did they want to be informed of the team? Of course. In some instances did they want to help select the models? Certainly. Where there cases where there were disagreements? Yes. But the difference is that at the end of the day what occurred when I arrived on set was completely different then what the OP had to suffer through because there was no arrogance in the sense that no one I've worked with has ever assumed that just because they were the photographer they got to make every decision. Clearly there are photographers who want to micromanage but I've learned that they also tend to be egomaniacal and insufferable to work with.
OP take the following lessons away from this:
1) It's okay to say "no". You were the one doing all of the legwork pre-shoot and being overly stressed because of unrealistic expectations is no good.
2) Get everything in writing. Even for a TF* shoot make sure you know when you'll be getting images and if you'll have any say in terms of selection. Some photographers may send you proofs and allow you to make selects but I've also worked with people who ask you what you need and send you shots based off of that.
3) Realize that the act of wielding a camera doesn't make someone above reproach and if a photographer does something you don't like say something about it.
4) Don't be afraid to cancel. It sucks when you've been prepping for weeks but sometimes it's better to step back and regroup.
Good luck moving forward!
I don't recall the OP saying this guy was arrogant or unwilling to do images she wanted. In fact she made clear she enjoyed their first session. Goodness, here you have a photographer who according to the OP turned down her money for TF. That doesn't sound like someone who's above reproach. I think the ideal is approach people and problems with understanding and kindness. This man based on what she said was trying to help a new model out. Again all for free. So no the ideal isn't to cancel. The ideal in my mind is to make adjustments as best you can. If the last model couldn't be worked with then pulled him aside and quietly say so.
In life people tend to do better by being diplomatic and not seeing artistic partners as trying to take advantage of them. Getting things in writing sounds great but very often even in the real world industry it doesn't happen for tests.
-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote: Thanks for the compliment Dan. I'm flattered that you feel I have anything in common with Star.
Personally, I'm shocked and dismayed at how many photographers seem willing (in this thread anyway) to compromise their trade/TF shoots and give away control to somebody else just because they need some items of clothing!
Some of you people need to learn to stand up for yourselves and say "no" to the shrill demands of these needle-wielding harpies before it's too late and they have you pegged as easy targets for free lookbooks and all manner of other commercial shoots they should really be paying for.
Give me a break. A photographer is in charge of his set and that is all. In paid shoots do real photographers not have art directors, designers, ad people, stylist, editors etc.. telling them what to do? Casting directors choosing the models? Having the vision of the shoot told to you to do?
This MM myth that photographers are the real orchestrator of shoots is just that a myth in a large part. Once the shoot starts then you are the boss maybe. Unless the client doesn't like the way the light is hitting the merchandise of course.
The photographer agreed to the payment. Everyone agreed to the payment for the original amount of work. The photographer shoved down his model on them at the last minute. He took advantage of them to get something that was not part of the deal into the shoot.
I would do a TF lookbook without hesitation especially if the designer did all the grunt work as she did. But I am a newb who needs that type of thing in my portfolio to get such work. I would not feel guilty of it at all.
You would not because I assume you already have that in your port or don't feel you need it.
I would not charge for something I have never done before.
In this scenario the only one not being taken advantage of is the photographer. The rest of the team should have stood up for themselves and said no.
As for the PAY ME crap. it has been brought to your attention many times that the photographer agreed to the payment terms (tf).
Why shouldn't the tog have to pay the rest of the team who are all equally important if he wants to control the shoot? give people extra work etc??
That's awesome Stefano. It really is great that you are taking so much of your time to tell us all how YOU operate.
Only this wasn't your shoot. So how YOU handle things really doesn't matter. It's clear that the OP isn't in the financial position to hire someone such as yourself... so as great as it is to know how YOU do things, it's really not helping anyone at this point.
Go make some money or something
Dan K Photography wrote:
Talking about yourself coming to the aid of the poor peasant photographers?
Yeah, Beause only you can prevent a clusterfuck. Models, designers, MUAH are all idiots.
Is your ego really that huge?
I mean if this shoot which was all set up by the designer didn't have the photographer add the model at the last minute it would have all been a giant clusterfuck.
Is that what you are saying Stefano?
Edit- Why would you take the blame? I can go to critique and people can tell if the styling was bad or the model was crap but the photography was very good.
I can go to any editorial photo site and see people commenting on everything but the photography.
You are not the only one that can see these things.
Dan K Photography wrote: Is your ego really that huge?
No. I just don't trust other people to organise my shoots for me.
At the end of the day in a trade scenario if the images are shit (for ANY reason) then the photographer is the person who ultimately shoulders the blame.
If I'm going to take the blame then I at least want it to be for my mistakes, not somebody else's. That's why I prefer to organise my own trade shoots rather than let it all go to a committee as some of you seem to.
-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote: No. I just don't trust other people to organise my shoots for me.
At the end of the day in a trade scenario if the images are shit (for ANY reason) then the photographer is the person who ultimately shoulders the blame.
If I'm going to take the blame then I at least want it to be for my mistakes, not somebody else's. That's why I prefer to organise my own trade shoots rather than let it all go to a committee as some of you seem to.
If you don't trust then don't do it and make it clear when you set up the shoot.
In this case the designer was doing all the leg work and the photographer seemed to agree to that until he put in another model.
He caused a clusterfuck and it had nothing to do with controlling the set or anything else. Stop white knighting for him and call him for doing the wrong thing here.
What one tog does does not necessarily reflect on you. Why don't photographers understand that and stop defending everything others do?
Why would you take the blame? I can go to critique and people can tell if the styling was bad or the model was crap but the photography was very good.
I can go to any editorial photo site and see people commenting on everything but the photography.
You are not the only one that can see these things.
Dan K Photography wrote: He caused a clusterfuck and it had nothing to do with controlling the set or anything else. Stop white knighting for him and call him for doing the wrong thing here.
I've already stated a couple of times that it sounds like his actions weren't helpful. However, we STILL only have the designer's side of that story.
My recent posts in this thread have been more general in nature and in response to other nonsense spewed by various so-called 'wardrobe stylists' who seem to think that THEY should be in charge of every shoot and that photographers - even in a trade scenario - are nothing more than talentless button-pushers, there to do their bidding.
Dan K Photography wrote: Why would you take the blame? I can go to critique and people can tell if the styling was bad or the model was crap but the photography was very good.
Try telling that to a magazine editor or an AD at an advertising agency. They don't care whose fault it was - they just see bad photos and assume you, the photographer, screwed up somewhere along the line, either in the planning or the execution.
The MM critique forum may be a bit of a bear pit, but the real world is a thousand times worse.
Try telling that to a magazine editor or an AD at an advertising agency. They don't care whose fault it was - they just see bad photos and assume you, the photographer, screwed up somewhere along the line, either in the planning or the execution.
The MM critique forum may be a bit of a bear pit, but the real world is a thousand times worse.
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