Anna Adrielle wrote:
ah, the hot stove argument...

my grandmother used to have a burning hot stove in the living room. as long as she had grandchildren that were little (for a very, very long time... 21 grandchildren!), she put a fence around it when we were there.

tadaaa, no spanking! I never touched a hot stove because I could never get near one!

Its an example. I live near the sea. I see every day a toddler fall down at the edge of the promenade. A moment's parental distraction is all it needs. Luckily; there is a slope and generally the tide is not high. YES; parents should keep their toddlers on a leash or strapped in a buggy. But they don't. Now there have been very sad consequences. Consequences that could be avoided with just one smack; because just like the cows; they won't do it again. Unlike the cows; you can reason with the child and explain why it has had a smack.

So. In the real world not every stove has a child guard around it. People bring their kids here and the yummy mummys are the worst because they don't control their kids and I am frantic when I see the kids careering toward the hot stove or toward my stuffed peacock for that matter. I do NOT have kids; my home is NOT child friendly; neaither is the rest of the world, and as I said in my opening statement in this thread if your child annoys my dog in my garden because you think the right to roam in the countryside means doing whatever the hell you want - well YOU are having it not the kid.

Well discilplined children; who maybe get a smack twice a year very lightly; don't do this kind of behaviour. The ones that come round my house and are told to sit down with my book about polar bears with lots of nice pictures or they will get a smack do just fine. I doubt very much if those parents smack their kids more than once a year. But they know what stay put don't wander off means.

I have the most well behaved dog imaginable. It only ONCE ever needed to have a light smack. And that was when its over enthusiasm got the better of it in play when we were young. We got a smack too. So we all sulked together and all had a talking to; and ten minutes later we were all playing again but knew the limits. Never again was there a problem.

Erlinda wrote:

Ahahahahaha no I am saying that not all children develop as quickly as others. Take my brother and I for example. He was a lot slower in learning how to potty train then I was. I learned at the age of 2 he learned at the age of 3-4. Another example. My brother said his first words a lot younger then I was. I had a lot more trouble learning how to read and write them my brother did. I also had to use my fingers to count or add and subtract numbers. Kids are different. My parents didn't do anything different when they were raising my brother and I.

So for you to call a parent stupid because they couldn't reason with a two year old is mind blowing. Fucking ridiculous if you ask me.

So if yours isn't as develed, you adjust your parenting. You don't punish the late bloomer for being behind the curve...

Erlinda wrote:

I guess she just felt like throwing a chair at me

You never did answer what you were doing when she threw the chairs at you...  Let me guess, on your phone?  Not paying attention to her?

Eliza C wrote:

Its an example. I live near the sea. I see every day a toddler fall down at the edge of the promenade. A moment's parental distraction is all it needs. Luckily; there is a slope and generally the tide is not high. YES; parents should keep their toddlers on a leash or strapped in a buggy. But they don't. Now there have been very sad consequences. Consequences that could be avoided with just one smack; because just like the cows; they won't do it again. Unlike the cows; you can reason with the child and explain why it has had a smack.

So. In the real world not every stove has a child giard around it. People bring their kids here and the yummy mummys are the worst because they don't control their kids and I am frantic when I see the kids careering toward the hot stove or toward my stuffed peacock for that matter. I do NOT have kids; my hiome is NOT child freindly; and as I said in my opening statemnet in this thread if your child annoys my dog in my garden YOU are having it not the kid.

Well discilplined children; who maybe get a smack twice a year very lightly; don't do this kind of behaviour. The ones that come round my house and are told to sit down with my book about polar bears with lots of nice pictures or they will get a smack do just fine. I doubt very much if those parents smack their kids more than once a year. But they know what stay put don't wander off means.

let me ask you this:

in the imaginary world of perfectparenting, should parents use those preventive measures when near dangerous situations, like a leash or a buggy?

if they do, would there still be the need to spank the kids?

so wouldn't that mean that, in that situation, most of the spanking afterwards could have been avoided by taking preventive measures beforehand?

Gianantonio wrote:

You never did answer what you were doing when she threw the chairs at you...  Let me guess, on your phone?  Not paying attention to her?

I really wish you wouldn't do that you know, it's the one thing I don't like about you

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
I have, over the years, found that children thrive on routine and discipline so I combine these two principles by giving each of my children a damn good thrashing every day, first thing in the morning before breakfast.

This is on the basis that during the day they will do something naughty that they otherwise would have gotten away with or only come to light at a less convenient time.

Before breakfast? That's barbaric.

Anna Adrielle wrote:
I guess so

seriously, ask a lot of children that just misbehaved, they'll often reply with "I don't know...". they know it's bad, they just do it anyway. sometimes they just can't control their impulses (I'm sure that you, as an adult, sometimes feel like doing something... but then don't do it cause you know it's not good or right :p)

could be that she just felt like it, yes.

Yes and no. I have my moments of doing something that I know I shouldn't be doing. Teehee

Damon Banner wrote:
You need to learn to reason with them.  Appeal to them, on an adult level.

No. You do not "reason with them on an adult level" when they are 5 years old.

I spanked my daughters when growing up, depnding upon the situation and severity as well.

Anna Adrielle wrote:

okay, but you'd never spank a child for not learning how to pottytrain right? or for not speaking properly? because it's not their fault that they're not there yet, in terms of development.

so if you're saying that the girl you were babysitting was also a bit late in development (which is possible, if there is an average it also means there are kids who are later, and kids who are quicker, that's nothing to be ashamed of), then why punish her for not understanding?

I would never spank a child for not learning "fast" enough, it's not something they can control. She understood what she was doing yet she still felt the need to try and throw it at my head. ugh

Anna Adrielle wrote:
let me ask you this:

in the imaginary world of perfectparenting, should parents use those preventive measures when near dangerous situations, like a leash or a buggy?

if they do, would there still be the need to spank the kids?

so wouldn't that mean that, in that situation, most of the spanking afterwards could have been avoided by taking preventive measures beforehand?

I totally agree. A smack is the last resort; and only should be used when failure to comply will lead to danger. I have always agreed with the thrust of the evidence; and stated so throughout. But that evidence suggests that corrective discipline is entirely different from corproral punishment and only used with young children and when other measures are not immediately effective. So "no you will burn yourself, no, NO... smack" if the kid is careering toward a hot stove. This is the case with most parenting. And for those who it is not and they thrash their kids; there are already laws in place.

What we are talking about here is the potential for a parent that gives their child a reasonable smack in such a situation to be criminalised and the child taken away. Which would truly be an obscene abuse of children by the state.

Gianantonio wrote:
You never did answer what you were doing when she threw the chairs at you...  Let me guess, on your phone?  Not paying attention to her?

LOL

So the lesson your methods would teach here is:

'People must pay attention to me whenever I demand it otherwise I have the right to cause them physical pain!'

Contradiction much?

Erlinda wrote:

Yes and no. I have my moments of doing something that I know I shouldn't be doing. Teehee

lol :p. seriously, if I did the things I wanted to do sometimes (but don't, because I have the ability to control my impulses :p), and people would ask me "why did you do that???" I'd probably have to say "ehm, I don't know... I just felt like it..." half the time :p

like I know it's stupid...but when I'm at a party or something and holding a glass of water or champagne, I always have to resist the urge not to splash it into some stranger's face :p. I have always wanted to try that, and I think it would be superfunny. Ofcourse I'll never do it, but if I did something like that to a sibling if I was a kid, I'd probably get punished for it right?

Anna Adrielle wrote:

out of curiosity: did you think about taking the chair away the first time?
and why not take it away the second time then?

I took it away all three times she did that. She just thought it was funny, even though she knew it could hurt me. Not many places y of hand hide a damn chair.

Just thinking about this situation I had is making me tired. That was a very painful day for me.

Erlinda wrote:
I'm sorry what? How is me saying all children are different because of their up bringing and back ground is generalising? I think you need to learn what the word means.

Also I was asking questions about these studies you guys have read I wasn't making a statement that the studies you've guys research dont study different kids etc.

I don't need to prove anything when it comes to my comment. I am asking a question you guys are the ones stating that spanking is wrong period and I want to know all the studies that show reacher done one different kids, from different upbringes, culture, race, countries etc.

Show me. I am pretty sure you won't. Because a lot of studies generalze. They study 10,000 kids and tell people that the rest of I do know a billion kids are the same as those kids and will react the same way to spanking wich is truly ridiculous.

Where a child lives, is raised and the people around them have a huge impact in how they behave. So I am not the one generalising you and your studies are.

Funny how you remove your previous comments on here when you post this.

Erlinda wrote:
OMFG....... Really? This shit again? Fucking hell, ask yourselves this. How many of those educated professionals who do these studies actually have kids?

Not to mention. These are studies that are done in what country? America only? And if so, what kind of kids did they do studies on? Kids that come from a foren background? Kids that have a family that has generations of Americans? Kids with no learning disabilities? Kids from different races? Kids from different neighbourhoods? Kids that are in a well of family? Kids who are middle class? Kids who are poor?

How do people not realise you can't give these studies so much face value. Generalising kids is wrong. They are all different.

To go around telling people how they parent their children is wrong and not your fucking place to throw pointless studies that mean shit and can be contradicted by other studies.

Not everything is black and white.

I think you are generalizing. How many of these books have you read and where can you validate a single one of your arguments? All studies have parameters, so they are not one sided. It's called the "gold standard".

Erlinda wrote:
What? Studying cancer is completely different then studying a child. I am even shocked you are comparing them two together.

Cancer is not a fucking person. Wtf you smoking?

Edit: You are just like Gianantonio. I asked some valid questions about these studies you guys keep referring to but no one seems to be able to answer them. Shocking

Studies follow a standard. Whether cancer or spanking there are logistics to providing an outcome that isn't skewed.

I feel like you react and make claims without having any insight yourself.

You like to curse and swear at people as if that makes your point valid.

You need to act more mature when you debate. You are being insulting for NO good reason
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx
READ THE ARTICLE... Stop making claims about others not having an insight. You do not now what these articles are even saying. You just accuse others of not having insight so you can justify the fact that you are not a coward for hitting a little kid.

Eliza C wrote:

I totally agree. A smack is the last resort; and only should be used when failure to comply will lead to danger. I have alwasy agreed with the thrust of the evidence; and stated so throughout. But that evidence suggests that corrective discipline is entirely different from corproral punishment and only used with young children and when other measures are not immediately effective. So "no you will burn yourself, no, NO... smack" if the kid is careering toward a hot stove. This is the case with most parenting. And for those who it is not and they thrash their kids; there are already laws in place.

nono, not my point. My point was:

i how many cases would a smack even be necessary if the parent took the necessary preventive measures?

meaning that a lot of times, the smack shouldn't have happened if the parent had been better prepared.

Eliza C wrote:
Because in the tiny minority of cases where smack is effective (and not I say 'A' smack not spanking which implies a thrashing without control)

I believe you made an error here.  It is not a smack, it is a spanking.  A thrashing would be a thrashing or a beating.

A spanking is a measured amount of corporal punishment delivered coolly and deliberately.  It can consist of one or more "swats".  My dad started with one, for a first offense, and then one more for each successive offense.  I don't think I ever got above two swats and not more than three spankings.

And then there was the element of waiting for the punishment to be delivered.

There were of course the occasional quick smacks on location, to curtail bad behavior, but even those were administered with control.

Gianantonio wrote:

You never did answer what you were doing when she threw the chairs at you...  Let me guess, on your phone?  Not paying attention to her?

What no, the first time I was getting snacks ready for her and her brother because they were well behaved and I thought it would be nice to give them snacks while they watched their fav cartoon.

I'm never on the phone unless it's an emergency or their parents are calling me etc. who am I going to call? My friends who also work and don't sit around talking to people on the phone all day. Your view of people that think spanking is okay is so low.

Erlinda wrote:
I took it away all three times she did that. She just thought it was funny, even though she knew it could hurt me. Not many places y of hand hide a damn chair.

Just thinking about this situation I had is making me tired. That was a very painful day for me.

aw, I'm sorry

if you're ever in the same situation: perhaps put the chair (I'm assuming it's a little plastic one, otherwise that's one hell of a 3yr old bodybuilder :p) in a closet, lock it, and keep the key with you?

see, the fact that she thought it was funny... also means she knew exactly that she was doing, and that she knew exactly that she could hurt you . she knew, the little devil!

all of this brought me back 8 summers ago, when I had to deal with a 3yr old who had been bottlefeeding his babysister toiletwater all afternoon... not one of my finest moments as a babysitter, I can tell you that

-Nicole- wrote:

LOL, whatever dude.

Call CPS if I'm abusing children. If not, fuck off.

I never said I didn't teach them. They already know how to pick up their toys. They are 8 and 7. Therefore, they know and understand what I am asking and they do it.

Clean up your language.

These aren't your kids right? If I was their dad I found out you were hitting my kids I would call the cops. And you know what. I will contact CPS on you. Thank you for giving me a good reason.

Gianantonio wrote:

So if yours isn't as develed, you adjust your parenting. You don't punish the late bloomer for being behind the curve...

Of course. I wouldn't go around spanking my kid if he/she was a late bloomer.

Eliza C wrote:
...
What we are talking about here is the potential for a parent that gives their child a reasonable smack in such a situation to be criminalised and the child taken away. Which would truly be an obscene abuse of children by the state.

There are multiple points going on here that are being argued.

One distinct point is whether or not there needs to be additional legislation (in what jurisdication I'm not sure) to deal with parents spanking.

Assuming the jurisdiction is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, I vote no. We have far bigger fish to fry that will affect our childrens' long term welfare much more greatly than whether they were occasionally spanked. So Eliza, I hear you loud and clear on that point.

I think there is a whole other argument about the merits or lack there of spanking.

Eliza C wrote:
So "no you will burn yourself, no, NO... smack" if the kid is careering toward a hot stove.

Actually I let them burn themselves. Of course in a controlled manner.  I show them the stove with a pot of hot, not scalding water on it, and say "No touch.  Hot !" 

Then I let them touch it.  I don't make them touch it.  When they do, I reinforce what I said, "No touch.  Hot !"  Then I go through the house and point at the TV, VCR, Stereo, etc. and say, "No touch.  Hot !"  Never had to pull a peanut butter sandwich out of the VCR. 

-Nicole- wrote:
LOL, whatever dude.

Call CPS if I'm abusing children. If not, fuck off.

I never said I didn't teach them. They already know how to pick up their toys. They are 8 and 7. Therefore, they know and understand what I am asking and they do it.

Nothing wrong in that Nic.

Mac is Live wrote:
Clean up your language.

These aren't your kids right? If I was their dad I found out you were hitting my kids I would call the cops. And you know what. I will contact CPS on you. Thank you for giving me a good reason.

Whoa who the hell are you to tell Nicole to clean up her language? Are YOU the fucking hall monitor here?

And what now...you're going to CALL CPS on her for what? Her posting something on a fucking website about spanking for god sake?

Dude...go grab a coke and a smile and chill.

Anna Adrielle wrote:

lol :p. seriously, if I did the things I wanted to do sometimes (but don't, because I have the ability to control my impulses :p), and people would ask me "why did you do that???" I'd probably have to say "ehm, I don't know... I just felt like it..." half the time :p

like I know it's stupid...but when I'm at a party or something and holding a glass of water or champagne, I always have to resist the urge not to splash it into some stranger's face :p. I have always wanted to try that, and I think it would be superfunny. Ofcourse I'll never do it, but if I did something like that to a sibling if I was a kid, I'd probably get punished for it right?

Ummmmmm I've done it and it is very thrilling. Wish I had punched the asshole instead.

Anywho. If my child throw water at their brother/sister i wouldn't spank them. I'd make them clean up, appologize then send them to their room for a few hours so they can cool down. Once that is done. I'd have a little chat with them about it.

Erlinda wrote:

I would never spank a child for not learning "fast" enough, it's not something they can control. She understood what she was doing yet she still felt the need to try and throw it at my head. ugh

the only reason why I asked is because you said earlier that a 2 or 3 year old doesn't have the capacity to realize right from wrong. and when I replied "they do" you said "you're joking right? she understood me so well that she chose not to listen to me and kept throwing her chair at me?"

that's a ibt contradictory. probably a flaw in our communication somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that now, you probably agree with me that
*she knew that what she was doing was wrong
*she knew she could hurt you
*she did it anyway

Mac is Live wrote:

Erlinda wrote:
I'm sorry what? How is me saying all children are different because of their up bringing and back ground is generalising? I think you need to learn what the word means.

Also I was asking questions about these studies you guys have read I wasn't making a statement that the studies you've guys research dont study different kids etc.

I don't need to prove anything when it comes to my comment. I am asking a question you guys are the ones stating that spanking is wrong period and I want to know all the studies that show reacher done one different kids, from different upbringes, culture, race, countries etc.

Show me. I am pretty sure you won't. Because a lot of studies generalze. They study 10,000 kids and tell people that the rest of I do know a billion kids are the same as those kids and will react the same way to spanking wich is truly ridiculous.

Where a child lives, is raised and the people around them have a huge impact in how they behave. So I am not the one generalising you and your studies are.

Funny how you remove your previous comments on here when you post this.

Erlinda wrote:
OMFG....... Really? This shit again? Fucking hell, ask yourselves this. How many of those educated professionals who do these studies actually have kids?

Not to mention. These are studies that are done in what country? America only? And if so, what kind of kids did they do studies on? Kids that come from a foren background? Kids that have a family that has generations of Americans? Kids with no learning disabilities? Kids from different races? Kids from different neighbourhoods? Kids that are in a well of family? Kids who are middle class? Kids who are poor?

How do people not realise you can't give these studies so much face value. Generalising kids is wrong. They are all different.

To go around telling people how they parent their children is wrong and not your fucking place to throw pointless studies that mean shit and can be contradicted by other studies.

Not everything is black and white.

I think you are generalizing. How many of these books have you read and where can you validate a single one of your arguments? All studies have parameters, so they are not one sided. It's called the "gold standard".

Erlinda wrote:
What? Studying cancer is completely different then studying a child. I am even shocked you are comparing them two together.

Cancer is not a fucking person. Wtf you smoking?

Edit: You are just like Gianantonio. I asked some valid questions about these studies you guys keep referring to but no one seems to be able to answer them. Shocking

Studies follow a standard. Whether cancer or spanking there are logistics to providing an outcome that isn't skewed.

I feel like you react and make claims without having any insight yourself.

You like to curse and swear at people as if that makes your point valid.

You need to act more mature when you debate. You are being insulting for NO good reason
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx
READ THE ARTICLE... Stop making claims about others not having an insight. You do not now what these articles are even saying. You just accuse others of not having insight so you can justify the fact that you are not a coward for hitting a little kid.

I don't even know why I'm even bothering with this. But I am not claiming I am asking questions. Do you see the question marks there? They are used when someone is asking about something they wish to know. I'm done.

Erlinda wrote:
Ummmmmm I've done it and it is very thrilling. Wish I had punched the asshole instead.

Anywho. If my child throw water at their brother/sister i wouldn't spank them. I'd make them clean up, appologize then send them to their room for a few hours so they can cool down. Once that is done. I'd have a little chat with them about it.

notice how I said punished, not spanked . making them clean up, apoligize and send them to their room IS a form of punishment.

I'd probably do something similar, except while they were in their room, I'd set up a water estafette parcours in the garden for us to play with water together in a way that it's allowed. keep my inner child satisfied as well :p

Mac is Live wrote:

Clean up your language.

These aren't your kids right? If I was their dad I found out you were hitting my kids I would call the cops. And you know what. I will contact CPS on you. Thank you for giving me a good reason.

Way to fail at reading. I've never spanked my nieces and nephews.

I'd only spank my own kids, which I don't even have.

But, go ahead and message me. I'll give you my address. When CPS shows up I'll apologize for having some tool call and waste their time.

And this is how I fucking talk. It's no surprise. I don't take kindly to someone saying I abuse children.

Erlinda wrote:

Of course. I wouldn't go around spanking my kid if he/she was a late bloomer.

I had the opportunity of seeing on multiple occasions a classroom for autistic toddlers. The entrance requirements were that the kids were potty trained - so that gives you an idea of the age level. This program was a full day immersion program.

Managing behavior in that classroom was certainly a challenge for these trained professionals (mostly masters degrees, mostly young, all female). To my knowledge, there was nothing like spanking or smacking going on, even though there was some bad behavior going on at times (though no more in my observation than in other classroom environments, and certainly less than I've observed on playgrounds).

The overall results that this team was able to achieve with the kids was pretty amazing - I'm not sure what accounted for that success.

-Nicole- wrote:
I'm sure they do.

I've never had to spank any of my nieces or nephews. They are all very well behaved. I know their mother has tanned their hides a couple times.

Spanking for me would be a last resort. I'd try other techniques of course but I certainly wouldn't rule out spanking all together.

I forwarded this to Wisconsin's CPS... by law you cannot leave a mark.

Let your sister or sister in law know that she may be contacted by CPS.

-Nicole- wrote:

Way to fail at reading. I've never spanked my nieces and nephews.

I'd only spank my own kids, which I don't even have.

But, go ahead and message me. I'll give you my address. When CPS shows up I'll apologize for having some tool call and waste their time.

And this is how I fucking talk. It's no surprise. I don't take kindly to someone saying I abuse children.

Well I did read. You make the case for someone else to decide. Cursing and being angry with someone doesn't help you. I'm sure you'll be contacted by CPS this week.

Anna Adrielle wrote:

aw, I'm sorry

if you're ever in the same situation: perhaps put the chair (I'm assuming it's a little plastic one, otherwise that's one hell of a 3yr old bodybuilder :p) in a closet, lock it, and keep the key with you?

see, the fact that she thought it was funny... also means she knew exactly that she was doing, and that she knew exactly that she could hurt you . she knew, the little devil!

all of this brought me back 8 summers ago, when I had to deal with a 3yr old who had been bottlefeeding his babysister toiletwater all afternoon... not one of my finest moments as a babysitter, I can tell you that

Ohhh I'm sure she new, she just acted like she was clueless. Either way I wasn't a happy camper and everything I tried didn't seem to work. But the tapping of the hand did.

Anna Adrielle wrote:

the only reason why I asked is because you said earlier that a 2 or 3 year old doesn't have the capacity to realize right from wrong. and when I replied "they do" you said "you're joking right? she understood me so well that she chose not to listen to me and kept throwing her chair at me?"

that's a ibt contradictory. probably a flaw in our communication somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that now, you probably agree with me that
*she knew that what she was doing was wrong
*she knew she could hurt you
*she did it anyway

Some kids don't understand others do and don't wish to stop. Either way I would do my best to figure out other ways to go about dealing with things then spanking but if nothing works a tap on the hand will always be something that I would fall back on.

Erlinda wrote:
Ohhh I'm sure she new, she just acted like she was clueless. Either way I wasn't a happy camper and everything I tried didn't seem to work. But the tapping of the hand did.

okay, but you realize the hand tap itself didn't do anything right? it doesn't even hurt or anything, it's just another way of saying "I'm serious, stop!". It's not a pain impuls she learns to associate with certain behavior, so in the future she'll avoid that behavior in order to avoid the pain impulse (which is the point of spanking)

Personally, I still think the whole thing could have gone differently, but that's a totally worthless opinion since I wasn't there (obviously :p), and the whole thing is over and done with anyway.

I'll ask it this way:

assuming you could go back in time, would you do anything differently after she threw the chair at you the first time?

Mac is Live wrote:

I forwarded this to Wisconsin's CPS... by law you cannot leave a mark.

Let your sister or sister in law know that she may be contacted by CPS.

WOW. This amazes me. Someone ON THE INTERNET that doesn't even know the children OR the parents in question is wasting the CPS time with bullshit reports based on a discussion on an internet forum.

PLEASE be sure to report back as to what they say!

Anna Adrielle wrote:

notice how I said punished, not spanked . making them clean up, apoligize and send them to their room IS a form of punishment.

I'd probably do something similar, except while they were in their room, I'd set up a water estafette parcours in the garden for us to play with water together in a way that it's allowed. keep my inner child satisfied as well :p

Lol makes sense of its summer time.

Erlinda wrote:
Lol makes sense of its summer time.

otherwise it's snow estafette for sure! :p
or grass estafette
or leaf estafette
or cat estafette

there's just never an excuse NOT to have a homemade estafette parcours in the garden, really... (but I might be a bit biased here)

Erlinda wrote:
Show me. I am pretty sure you won't.

So I am not the one generalising you and your studies are.

You don't validate your accusations and you make statements that you are, "pretty sure I won't." That's not a fair claim to make. You're trying to argue not debate.

Plus all this cursing about that you've been doing isn't making it easier to have a discussion with you. I'm trying to give you good sources that shows my opinion, but you want to make claims that I am not going to or not capable of backing up my point. ie. "Show me. I am pretty sure you won't." That's not asking a question. That's trying to cause and angry response from somebody. Have some accountability.