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Photographer
Kennys Koncept Shoots
Posts: 27
Grand Prairie, Texas, US


I know there have been several threads on variations of the topics... "Flakes" and "Outing in public", I have a question still about them

WHY is it an accepted practice to look the other way? If someone flakes on a shoot, its treated as if its no big deal, no harm no foul, just dont book with them again and several variations along the lines (for those who get flaked on continuously) "Whats the common denominator? You are so YOU must be the problem." In the mean time we have all of these people booking shoots, flaking out and there is no way to let others know before they waste their time and they in turn book another flake. We just look the other way. WHY? Is this just another way of saying "yes its ok to flake all you want because no one will say anything if you do"? Are we actually condoning the practice?

A street vendor selling oranges out of his cart along with others selling their fruits know they will be the victim of theft here and there. The difference is, when they know who the thief is, he gets pointed out. Are not flakes like thieves as well? Guilty of theft of time? Yet we tell them its ok to do so.

So would you folks kindly tell me ... WHY?

Not looking to start anything and I'm not trolling and I'm actually not stirring a pot. Just looking for answers as to why its basically allowed and those guilty of it can do so without repercussions of their actions.

Thanks
Aug 29 12 05:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,315
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


cause we usually never get both sides of the story...in the rare case we do, we usually find its a lack of communication on both parts...

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png
Aug 29 12 05:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Koda Lex
Posts: 17
Tampa, Florida, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
cause we usually never get both sides of the story...in the rare case we do, we usually find its a lack of communication on both parts...

+1

Aug 29 12 05:37 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
PashaPhoto
Posts: 9,726
Brooklyn, New York, US


what Swinskey said, plus...

flakes, by their very own nature, happen to be not only unreliable but also completely unpredictable... the same llama that just flaked on one photographer may show up to a shoot right after with another shooter etc, etc, etc...
Aug 29 12 05:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,955
Albany, New York, US


Because...

A. you're "flake" can be my "old reliable."
B. I'm not privy to what was & was not agreed upon between the two of you.
C. publicisizing that kind of info can be construed as creating drama which I have zero desire to be a part of...which is different if someone independently asks your opinion about so & so.
Aug 29 12 05:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
LizzyB
Posts: 2,178
Rochester, New York, US


because unfortunately overall it happens so much that everyone has taught themselves to take it with a grain of salt and move on.

(unfortunately people also seem to be of the mindset, 'well i've had to deal with it, so quit yer bitchin'')
Aug 29 12 05:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
_Rei_
Posts: 124
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


A flake is not really like a thief because, last time I checked, it's not illegal to flake.
It's just a shitty thing to do.

I think the approach that gets adopted on MM is more to save sanity, not to let the flake off the hook. By all means, chase up that person, call attention to their behaviour and demand an explanation if it'll make you feel better. But if they flaked on a shoot, they'll probably flake on a satisfactory reply too.
You also have the option of letting other people in your area know about the flake, or posting a "Will not work with" list on your profile. But you also run the unfortunate risk of making yourself look like a drama queen, as anyone can post/say such things without requiring evidence.

So, in the end, so as to not drive yourself crazy, it makes much more sense to breathe deeply, check your own practices to minimise the occurrence of flakes in future, and move on. Good luck.
Aug 29 12 05:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 17,752
Downers Grove, Illinois, US


Do you honestly think someone in your area is going to just happen to come across your portfolio or a post at the very same time he/she is thinking about shooting with a model that you just happened to attempt to work with and decided  to publicize her in a negative way and that photographer is going to just happen to read your entire profile or your posts and just happen to see what you wrote about the model he is thinking about working with and its going to change his mind?

Do you get what I'm saying? The chances of outing these people having any effect at all is pretty much zero.
Aug 29 12 05:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,376
San Diego, California, US


Kennys Koncept Shoots wrote:
WHY is it an accepted practice to look the other way?

i don't know that it is. I know that, at least in this little po-dunk area, a few of us (MUA, models, photographers) regularly converse one way or another with light banter and certain behavioral patterns will develop. Both positive and not so positive.

Aug 29 12 05:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
Alison D Friedman
Posts: 79
New York, New York, US


I'm not sure how this compares to the fruit vendor example. If a fruit vendor is stolen from, he or she can take it up with the authorities if they wish. However while a flake is guilty for stealing everybody else's time, I can't imagine positive results from calling the police on a model because she didn't show up to a shoot. Ok... That may be a bit far out, but in the end we still only get one side of the story.
Aug 29 12 06:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rfordphotos
Posts: 4,698
Antioch, California, US


Kennys Koncept Shoots wrote:
So would you folks kindly tell me ... WHY?

Not looking to start anything and I'm not trolling and I'm actually not stirring a pot. Just looking for answers as to why its basically allowed and those guilty of it can do so without repercussions of their actions.

Thanks

So, Kenny---why did YOU flake on that last shoot we had scheduled? You didnt even bother to call, no note, no nothing. Shame on you.

What? You mean that isnt the truth? My word against yours. He said, she said.

The point is there are too many things involved to make it as black and white as you would like it to be. There is NO way in the world to have an "honor" based system on anything as subjective as this. It will always be a case of two different points of view (at least).

You say the model flaked, she says the schedule was for the next day. Who are we supposed to believe? Or, you REALLY pissed her off when you quoted her rates, so she and five of her BFF's post on their bio's that YOU flaked, or dont deliver pix or whatever. Or she pissed you off when she wouldnt pose for nudes for TF, so YOU post that she flakes....

Begin to see the issue?

The only thing you CAN do is as much reference checking as you can, and try to develop good radar.

Aug 29 12 06:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JAE
Posts: 2,114
West Chester, Pennsylvania, US


There's no way of letting other people know?  Network with people local to you then you can share feedback - positive and negative.  People talk about it.  MM just isn't really the place.
Aug 29 12 06:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 8,194
Olney, Maryland, US


There are different definitions of "flake."

One fellow called a model a flake because she didn't answer his email asking to set up a shoot.
Aug 29 12 06:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John The Photo Guy
Posts: 28
Decatur, Alabama, US


I've found that if you pay attention to how the communication is going, you can pretty much figure out how things are gonna go. If things aren't fluid, with steady responses, you can almost bet that the shoot will not happen. And if it does happen, the likelihood of making something worthy of both of your efforts is slim. This isn't 100%, but I've found it's close. If the model isn't responding in a timely manner, don't waste your time. He/she likely doesn't want to waste their time on you. And it doesn't matter why. Forget them and move on! There are plenty of good, reliable models out there.
Aug 29 12 06:39 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,067
New York, New York, US


In most cases, we can never really know if it's a flake or a real emergency, or a misunderstanding.  It's a war that can never be won, so why waste our time fighting it?  Much better to spend that time and energy doing something else that's useful.

I believe strongly in preshoot meets as a way to prevent at least some flakes at shoots, but I schedule them in the cafe of my favorite book store, across the street from a city park, near my pharmacist and a specialty food store and a farmers market. and in a particularly vibrant part of NYC.  If I do get a flake, and despite my best efforts I do sometimes,   I can buy a book, pick up a prescription, shop for foods that are not carried in my local supermarkets, even do a little street photography or sit on a park bench and watch the pretty coeds go by.  All far more productive and far more pleasant than getting worked up over a model not showing up.

I never shoot anyone for the first time unless it's either walking around in that community or in my studio, which is in my basement, which also contains my shop and the laundry room for the building.  If I'm stood up I can do my laundry, build something, paint a backdrop, reset some lights, shoot some still lifes, or even read a book or clean the basement.  Again, even though doing these things has not eliminated the fact of the flake, they do turn the event into more of a loss for the person committing the flake than for me, since she will never again have the opportunity to take advantage of my overwhelming skill, talent and charm while I won't have to waste time with a spoiled, self-centered, untalented (but pretty) brat.

Besides, I like lemonade.

All IMHO, as always.
Aug 29 12 06:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kennys Koncept Shoots
Posts: 27
Grand Prairie, Texas, US


Hey Guys! I appreciate the feedback and the he said/she said issue. What if there were a way to verify that shoot was scheduled at a certain date and time and all parties were able to acknowledge this for public viewing and then one of the parties flake. There is no more he said/she said. It becomes a matter of record. THEN would it be acceptable practice to at least state that a party missed on their commitment to a shoot?

Publicly or privately we can all bash someone with no just cause, its done all the time anyways. I chalk up what is said and weigh based upon what I know of those talking.

I know all about "my flake your pet" issue as well as the well respected model who has shot with many I know just ups and decides 12 hours before the shoot to go out drinking, then ignores any contact attempt. Along with all of the normal excuses as well.

Thanks again!
Aug 29 12 06:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
New Art Photo
Posts: 701
Los Angeles, California, US


John The Photo Guy wrote:
I've found that if you pay attention to how the communication is going, you can pretty much figure out how things are gonna go. If things aren't fluid, with steady responses, you can almost bet that the shoot will not happen. And if it does happen, the likelihood of making something worthy of both of your efforts is slim. This isn't 100%, but I've found it's close. If the model isn't responding in a timely manner, don't waste your time. He/she likely doesn't want to waste their time on you. And it doesn't matter why. Forget them and move on! There are plenty of good, reliable models out there.

--++
(PS If you write a girl about a TFP shoot ,and she says she's "Very interested."
  Unless she asks about a time--she's being nice, but she's not interested.)

Aug 29 12 06:57 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,067
New York, New York, US


Kennys Koncept Shoots wrote:
Hey Guys! I appreciate the feedback and the he said/she said issue. What if there were a way to verify that shoot was scheduled at a certain date and time and all parties were able to acknowledge this for public viewing and then one of the parties flake. There is no more he said/she said. It becomes a matter of record. THEN would it be acceptable practice to at least state that a party missed on their commitment to a shoot?

You can certainly maintain the record simply by recording the agreements reached in PMs you exchange, together with confirmations, back and forth, in a single, continuing PM.  I do that all the time, on every meet and every shoot.  Largely as a result of doing that my flake rate, as opposed to cancellations and rebookings, is way, way down.

But as to creating some sort of a database or blacklist, why on earth do that?  The only thing you can prove conclusively is that you have an unusually high flake rate.  And that would reflect at least as badly on you as on the people that flake.  Folks would start asking, "Why do so many people flake on him?  Is he some sort of model molester?  Is he so persistent and unwilling to accept a polite "No, thanks," that models agree to shoot just to shut him up?"  IMHO there is no upside and a lot of downsides to blacklists and the downsides tend to accrue mainly to the people that set up or contribute to the blacklists.

Aug 29 12 07:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4,344
Asheville, North Carolina, US


They don't flake on me, so I'm not interested.
Aug 29 12 07:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
_Rei_
Posts: 124
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


Kennys Koncept Shoots wrote:
Hey Guys! I appreciate the feedback and the he said/she said issue. What if there were a way to verify that shoot was scheduled at a certain date and time and all parties were able to acknowledge this for public viewing and then one of the parties flake. There is no more he said/she said. It becomes a matter of record. THEN would it be acceptable practice to at least state that a party missed on their commitment to a shoot?

I get what you're saying here, but what happens in the case of either party having a genuine reason not to go through with the shoot? This kind of thing doesn't happen often, I know, but it does happen.

A photographer, travelling from out-of-town, messaged me to set up a shoot. We agreed on a day, my rates and arranged to talk about locations closer to the day (most likely outdoors). A week out, the photographer tells me he'll be staying in a nice hotel in the city and we agree to shoot in a forest park just out of the city - with the hotel for back-up if weather was bad. Sorted.
The night before, the photographer texts me, says that he's actually staying in a crappy motel outside my city's borders, that he didn't bring his outdoor kit, and could I just drive there and shoot for a few hours.
I told him that he'd significantly changed the agreed-upon plan, and that I no longer felt comfortable with the arrangement. I asked him to let me know next time he was in town and could do the set-up we'd agreed on. He was pissed.

But, objectively speaking, what has happened is that there was a shoot that was organised, both parties agreed, and one bailed. If this become a matter of public record, I look like a flake. Do you think that's fair?

Aug 29 12 07:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,864
Olivet, Michigan, US


PashaPhoto wrote:
flakes, by their very own nature, happen to be not only unreliable but also completely unpredictable... the same model that just flaked on one photographer may show up to a shoot right after with another shooter etc, etc, etc...

This.  I know of plenty of models who I've been happy, or even delighted, with, who "flaked" on other photographers.  And the other way around.

In one case, a model even flaked on a photographer WHILE with me.  Or, while staying in my guest room.

Aug 29 12 08:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Bengali
Posts: 45
Amsterdam, New York, US


Perhaps MM would take up the idea of setting up shoot dates through an app or tool in the "My Stuff" category. I hope the gatekeeprs are watching this...

It'd be a pretty good idea have a shoot tracker, to guage the model/photographer/mua activity and determine reply/flake/shoot ratios. Not necessarily track what is being done, simply reply frequency rate so the intended parties to know what behavior to expect from this contact. Its a fair and managable thing to do because a person's rating would be placed soley in their own hands based on their activity. If you're not interested reply and say so. That covers your obligation for a "non-flake".

In a way to remedy the problem is offer a scheduler where everyone clicks the box. Like the one on Facebook "going", "Not going", "maybe".

Just some thoughts after reading the posts. There really is no point in ranting and throwing a tantrum on your profile or even in a forum. I had a flake this past sunday. Don't see me cryin' about it. Suck it up and on to the next one! You know you won't be shooting with them, the only gain of them being outed is for YOU to feel better about being flaked on. They obviously don't flake ALL the time if they have enough pics to fill a port!
- Not directed at the OP I'm just sayin!
Aug 29 12 09:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,242
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Kennys Koncept Shoots wrote:
Hey Guys! I appreciate the feedback and the he said/she said issue. What if there were a way to verify that shoot was scheduled at a certain date and time and all parties were able to acknowledge this for public viewing and then one of the parties flake. There is no more he said/she said. It becomes a matter of record. THEN would it be acceptable practice to at least state that a party missed on their commitment to a shoot?

Publicly or privately we can all bash someone with no just cause, its done all the time anyways. I chalk up what is said and weigh based upon what I know of those talking.

I know all about "my flake your pet" issue as well as the well respected model who has shot with many I know just ups and decides 12 hours before the shoot to go out drinking, then ignores any contact attempt. Along with all of the normal excuses as well.

Thanks again!

So we get this fancy doohickey that publicly airs that you and I are scheduled for 3 on Friday, and then Thursday night you go complete asshole on me in private messages and I cancel the shoot. But our doohickey said we were supposed to shoot. And you tell fancy Internet gadget thing on friday afternoon that I didn't show up, because you're mad I cancelled. So even though you did something in private that upset me and I CANCELLED the shoot, you still get to call me a flake publicly, and I can't publicly retaliate with what it was that made me not want to shoot with you. It's still a matter of he said she said because every single pm, email, fb message, text, phone call , or however else you might book a shoot, isn't public. And for good reason.

Aug 29 12 10:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 2,949
Royal Oak, Michigan, US


Flakes are only thieves of your expectations.  There are plenty of things that can be done to minimize, but not eliminate flakes-deposits, pre shoot meetings, 24 confirmation. I charge a deposit for first time clients, and their are still reschedules for a variety of reasons.
Aug 30 12 07:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,153
Portland, Oregon, US


Kennys Koncept Shoots wrote:
WHY is it an accepted practice to look the other way?

No one says that you have to look the other way.  You just can't "out" someone here:
...  These forums are not trials.
...  We have no reason to believe or disbelieve you.
...  We hear only your side of the story.
...  Naming names here can open MM up to legal actions, which we can't afford.
...  We don't know how you treated your model.
...  We don't know what your references said about you.

What you can do:
...  You can choose not to work with this model ever again.
...  You can tell your photographer friends to avoid the model (these friends, who
     know you, presumably know you well enough to trust your word).
...  If asked for a reference for this model, you can tell your sob story.
...  You can create contingency plans, in case a model doesn't show up.

You could also put a "Not Recommended" list on your profile, but I wouldn't advise that:
...  Your profile should be a positive first impression, and devoting your profile to
     revenge for alleged slights makes a very bad impression.
...  Remember, we strangers have no reason to believe or disbelieve you.
...  There is an excellent chance that people considering working with that model
     will not be checking your profile for your "not recommended" list.

Final word:  it always amazes me that photographers cry after the fact when they decide to spend no effort in checking a model's reference beforehand.

John Wooden, legendary UCLA basketball coach, once wrote:
Don't whine; don't complain; don't make excuses.

Aug 30 12 07:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MDWM
Posts: 632
Los Angeles, California, US


OP, don't waste your time on this...move on. In this business, you have to develop a thick skin. Some things come with the territory.
Aug 30 12 08:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,329
Salem, Oregon, US


network with local photographers and swap blacklists. but just because photographer A had trouble with a model doesn't mean photographer B will. and some models are unpredictable. sometimes they show up, sometimes they don't. i guess they have their reasons.

personally i think there should be some kind of demerit point system and if you accumulate enough negative points you get the boot. but there would need to be arbitration to prevent people from doing it just for spite.
Aug 30 12 08:51 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 4,883
Detroit, Michigan, US


It is not that flakes are being protected, but rather that misinformation, lies, personal disputes, and so on are being curbed. You have already been given a couple good examples of how outing or mentioning flakes could be misused (see posts by Laura Unbound and Rei).

And I will throw you another one: I was one of the most appreciated and most popular models back in East TN for about 2 years. I had a great reputation that I had earned by showing up on time, being easy to work with and not a diva, and being friendly and helpful. Then one day my fiance left me for my best friend/a photographer I had tried to help out. They immediately began spreading rumors about me, mainly personal ones. She started saying I was unprofessional to work with despite my being prominently in her portfolio. Practically overnight I lost everything. Friends abandoned me, when I did go to shoots all the photographer would do was talk about what the model and my ex had said about me. I guess my fiance had been keeping a list of everyone I shot with because the photographer decided to start modeling and started posing for every one of them. I finally had to give up shooting other than with my best friend and one or two others who were not involved with the two of them.

Granted this was not a flake rumor (that I am aware of), but it is something that someone said that totally killed my career. Nobody even bothered to hear my side of things, not even people who I had once considered friends. Now imagine if some photographer started spouting off that a model had flaked, without knowing the reason (or perhaps out of spite because she legitimately cancelled). The model gets a bad reputation that she did not deserve and now she is totally screwed. Sure, if she really did flake out, that is one thing, but if she did not that really is not fair is it? I would not want to be responsible for ruining someone's career or hobby just because I thought they might have flaked on me.

Flakes suck. But the punishment has to fit the crime and before you can punish someone you really should be sure they actually committed the crime. And in the case of flakes you rarely know for sure what happened, and people on MM would be even less likely of knowing the truth. Only what you said and maybe what the model said.

All of that being said (bonus points if you read it all) there are things you can do to cut back on the flakes. The red flags I usually look at are:
- lack of communication (or really poor communication skills)
- drama llama/diva/self-absorbed attitudes
- poor references
- lack of interest (they should be asking questions or at least confirming things)

A good model who is interested in a project will respond to you in a timely manner, make sure he/she has all the info they need, ask questions if they unsure, and usually have a well-worded profile and a somewhat up to date portfolio (though some very experienced models will update less often).
Aug 30 12 08:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 17,752
Downers Grove, Illinois, US


Mark Salo wrote:
There are different definitions of "flake."

One fellow called a model a flake because she didn't answer his email asking to set up a shoot.

I was put on a Do Not Recommend list by a clothing designer in Ohio who didn't like what I said on the Forums.

I know of a model who put 2 people on her "Shit List" (that's how she labeled it in her profile) both of whom she never never met or ever scheduled a shoot with because of PM and web board interaction.

Aug 30 12 09:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


And the alternative to the "no-outing" policy is what?

"Hey, how come Andrew gets to get up? If he gets up, we'll all get up, it'll be anarchy!" - Breakfast Club
Aug 30 12 09:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 17,752
Downers Grove, Illinois, US


Kennys Koncept Shoots wrote:
Hey Guys! I appreciate the feedback and the he said/she said issue. What if there were a way to verify that shoot was scheduled at a certain date and time and all parties were able to acknowledge this for public viewing and then one of the parties flake. There is no more he said/she said. It becomes a matter of record. THEN would it be acceptable practice to at least state that a party missed on their commitment to a shoot?

Publicly or privately we can all bash someone with no just cause, its done all the time anyways. I chalk up what is said and weigh based upon what I know of those talking.

I know all about "my flake your pet" issue as well as the well respected llama who has shot with many I know just ups and decides 12 hours before the shoot to go out drinking, then ignores any contact attempt. Along with all of the normal excuses as well.

Thanks again!

That still doesn't verify the reason for it not happening. What stops the llama from saying she called it off because you sexually propositioned her before the actual shoot?

I just don't see what you hope to accomplish with this.

Aug 30 12 09:06 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jordan Bunniie
Posts: 1,643
Los Angeles, California, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
cause we usually never get both sides of the story...in the rare case we do, we usually find its a lack of communication on both parts...

ding ding ding!

Aug 30 12 09:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PTFPhoto
Posts: 117
Tallahassee, Florida, US


Loki Studio wrote:
Flakes are only thieves of your expectations.  There are plenty of things that can be done to minimize, but not eliminate flakes-deposits, pre shoot meetings, 24 confirmation. I charge a deposit for first time clients, and their are still reschedules for a variety of reasons.

+1

Half the fee up front.  That takes care of my time to go to the studio, set up lights, etc.  If the model, no-shows, no problem.  Maybe I call a friend to shoot, or I do some still life, or maybe I just sit down and have a beer. 

The overriding factor here is to NOT let people steal your time.  Charge them for it.

Aug 30 12 09:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Moore Photo Graphix
Posts: 5,288
Washington, District of Columbia, US


twoharts wrote:
personally i think there should be some kind of demerit point system and if you accumulate enough negative points you get the boot. but there would need to be arbitration to prevent people from doing it just for spite.

Here lies the rub! MM has made it clear it won't get involve in personal disputes. To do that means the site and the owners (Censoring Assholes) have to open themselves up to litigation. You have to hire lawyers, more tech support, create numerous waiver forms for "active" members to sign, and more people monitoring the site than ever before. If people can sue for coffee being too hot and pants lost in a dry cleaner, then false accusation posted in an online forum can unleash the legal hounds. The risks outweighs the rewards here!

Aug 30 12 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,329
Salem, Oregon, US


and you are one of the sanest people and clearest voices on here. if it could happen to you it could happen to anyone of us.

Dekilah wrote:
Granted this was not a flake rumor (that I am aware of), but it is something that someone said that totally killed my career. Nobody even bothered to hear my side of things, not even people who I had once considered friends.

Aug 30 12 12:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,329
Salem, Oregon, US


i know. but sometimes i just feel like grrrrrrrrrr. lol

Moore Photo Graphix wrote:
The risks outweighs the rewards here!

Aug 30 12 12:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jordan Bunniie
Posts: 1,643
Los Angeles, California, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
cause we usually never get both sides of the story...in the rare case we do, we usually find its a lack of communication on both parts...

This thread should have ended here.

Aug 30 12 12:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,573
Salinas, California, US


Flaking does not happen often enough to make mandatory announcements on a public forum or require registration of the flakes with the penal society for punishment.  Sure, you're pissed when someone flakes on you, but ultimately, it is the one who flakes that is the loser.  You'll live to shoot another day, they ... well we don't know what happened because they flaked!

Would you like me to cut and paste my long post on "Tips on avoiding flakes and lates?"  The percentage of models flaking on me is so small that I can count the number of flakes the past 10 years on one hand.  That's less than one percent! 

I would much rather talk about the models who DO show up!  I would much rather discuss how to sharpen your red flag skills in vetting models.  Communication is key!
Aug 30 12 12:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,329
Salem, Oregon, US


i love the threads where the OP just slowly unveils the whole story and by the end i'm thinking that those two people deserved each other and this wasn't worth my time at all. sometimes the initial post is just the beginning of a train wreck.

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
cause we usually never get both sides of the story...in the rare case we do, we usually find its a lack of communication on both parts...

Aug 30 12 12:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,329
Salem, Oregon, US


i've had two models recently who contacted me first, we confirmed the day before and then either no model or a last-minute cancellation. one of the shoots was clothed, the other lingerie.

maybe i need to start checking references but both girls had obviously shown up for at least some decent photographers. and we did communicate. i gave them several opportunities to bail out gracefully if they so desired.

some of these chicks are just flaky! maybe they're not fully in control of their own lives. or alcoholics. who knows.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I would much rather discuss how to sharpen your red flag skills in vetting models.  Communication is key!

Aug 30 12 12:15 pm  Link  Quote 
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