login info join!
Forums > Model Colloquy > Photographers who don't know how to choose photos Search   Reply
first123
Model
Calypso Moon
Posts: 848
Banning, California, US


I've had this happen a few times.  Most of the time it's not a big deal, especially if it's a paid shoot -- they paid for the images, so it doesn't really matter what I think about them.

There have been some trade shoots where I wish I had gotten images from a different set than the ones I got, or didn't like the editing, but I just decided to work with someone different instead of beating a dead horse.
Sep 20 12 08:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8,841
Delphos, Ohio, US


Naomi L A wrote:
I've viewed photos on cameras and have seen great photos but have never recieved those particular ones.

The image you see on a camera's small display is often quite different in full resolution.

Sep 20 12 09:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GCobb Photography
Posts: 15,891
Southaven, Mississippi, US


I don't have a problem working with a model on picture selection.  My views aren't the only views.

One image in my port is one the model picked over a year ago.  I didn't like it but recently put it up.  I had compliments on it when I thought I wouldn't.

I'm sure my case isn't the only one.
Sep 20 12 09:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photographer Tim
Posts: 177
Saint Michael, Minnesota, US


Naomi L A wrote:
I definitely feel like some photos photographers send are not the best. I've viewed photos on cameras and have seen great photos but have never recieved those particular ones. I think that the photographers may be looking for lighting while were looking for poses and beauty.

fyi ...what you see in camera is NOTHING like the real pic.... not even close. I can tell if it is way to dark or way blown out but that is it.  Focus is the real issue in looking at camera backs... even if you zoom in they will look good, get them on the computer and they can be soft to just bad.   so making this statement you made makes me know, you really don't know about photography at this level. No offense meant but ..looking at pics on camera...big lol.    In studio I always shoot tethered meaning the pic goes to my HD 17 inch laptop. Next you will hear it slows the process, but not on a really kick ass laptop.   Then and only then can you really know the picture. Untethered... I hope and pray but mostly count on experience.
That said cameras can change where the focal point is and you will not seee it while shooting. We have tools to test them and the camera has adjustments to change the focal point forward or back...even a 1/4 inch matters. I have only had to reshoot once because of this and I shoot 150,000 pics a year.

Next if you are working with photogs that tell you what you see is what you get and that they can not re crop or they do not have the original raw file.... find a new photog.

Last, whom the photo is made for is right about the picture regardless. My ego does not supersede the customers money and opinion.


and yes beauty and pose beauty is in the eye of the beholder....but still the one buying...should always get what they paid for.

Sep 20 12 09:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photographer Tim
Posts: 177
Saint Michael, Minnesota, US


GCobb Photography wrote:
I don't have a problem working with a model on picture selection.  My views aren't the only views.

One image in my port is one the model picked over a year ago.  I didn't like it but recently put it up.  I had compliments on it when I thought I wouldn't.

I'm sure my case isn't the only one.

ditto...     see here is a photographer with his ego in control.

Sep 20 12 09:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bluestill Photography
Posts: 1,797
Seattle, Washington, US


NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
I stick everything into a password-protected smugmug gallery and ask the model which ones she likes.

I couldn't agree with you more or agree with the OP any less, except for the fact that in a layman term the OP indicates that she is an expert in a field that is 100% absolutely subjective. Yet without any evidence or examples, it pretty much becomes nothing but a matter of opinion. OP I understand what you are saying totally about photo selection. I upload all the photos I shoot and allow the model to make their own selection of which photos. I read cases where people say "I don't allow anyone to see my sub par work". I know what I like and what I don't like, so I let the model decide what is spectacular and what is sub par. OP from your indication about knowing lighting, angles, and so on it baffles me why you are not shooting the photo? Shooting with you sound like it would be the equivalent of shooting next to one of those know-it-all-in-one photographers. My question is do you pull out. Light meter when you step on set. I am quite sure the "good photographers" that you speak of, had no idea that by making a small suggestion to you during a shoot, that they were building a Frankenstein. Why don't you just host seminars and teach the entire world the only way it should be done? That might sound like a vicious attack but it really isn't because there are so many ways of doing photography that a few answered questions or opinions does not make you the expert on the science of photography. Otherwise, give up modeling and cash in on it, that is unless you love modeling more than you love cash.

Sep 20 12 10:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
A N D E R S O N
Posts: 2,553
Garden Grove, California, US


Naomi L A wrote:
I definitely feel like some photos photographers send are not the best. I've viewed photos on cameras and have seen great photos but have never recieved those particular ones. I think that the photographers may be looking for lighting while were looking for poses and beauty.

That happens a lot, and it's the reason why I don't like to show photos during the shoot. There are lots of things that can go wrong in a photo that is not noticeable in such a small display, focus being a big one. Many times I've thought a certain shot was going to be my favorite from the camera display only to find out it was never even usable.

You should select a photographer by their work, which is their selections, their choices. If you don't trust their judgement then why did you shoot to begin with?

Sep 20 12 10:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
howard r
Posts: 485
Los Angeles, California, US


i pay my models something (although not their full rate) precisely because i do not want to open my files for their personal selections. a few models may know what they are talking about, but most go straight to mediocre shots and say "ooh - can i get that one?".

if i have to deal with that, i want to be well paid cause it's painful. and then to have to retouch a bad image, even worse.

i will also say i explain all of this upfront, and most models love my selects.
Sep 24 12 08:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17,914
Los Angeles, California, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
I'm not even particularily talking about just amateur photographers either, neither am I talking about anyone in particular. I know that photographers and models have different things in mind when choosing photos to edit, but I've recently been in a few positions where I believe much better pictures could/should have been chosen... I've also recently seen photos that should have been cropped differently (going off of cropping criteria that good photographers go by) to look more appealing, yet the choice of crop the photographer applied simply made a good picture look amateur.

Like I said, I know models and photographers have different points of view, however I consider myself a bit on an exception to this since I have learned from good photographers and have trained my eye to look from a photographers point of view as well as a models.

So, models, have you received photos back from a promising shoot only to realize there were better photos and/or different changes should have been made in editing to improve the finished photos?

Photographers, how would you feel about a model politely contacting you asking to see some more of the unedited photos from the shoot, and choose another one to be edited. And how would you feel/react to a model asking you to make different, specific editing changes to a finished photo?

For simplicity, let's all assume this is all for a TF shoot.

if the model wants to choose from a series of selects she is welcome to PAY ME

Sep 24 12 11:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Saadiq Photography
Posts: 1,314
New York, New York, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

If you like my work and want to trade with me based on my portfolio, then you should be happy to accept my selections.

However, after I've retouched my selections, depending on how much I enjoyed the shoot and how well we got along, I may offer the model a look at my gallery of selects to choose a couple more images to be retouched by me. If she wants more after that though, she can pay a 3rd party retoucher (approved by me) to retouch anything from my selects.


If you like my work and want to trade with me based on my portfolio, then you should be happy to accept my retouching choices.

Honestly, requests for changes to retouching are not likely to go down well with many photographers. When you criticize a finished photo you're arguing with the photographer's vision.

My general stance would be to say "no" - if you want different retouching then get somebody else to do it and make damn sure it's clear wherever you post it that I didn't retouch that image.


It sounds to me as if you should really be paying photographers rather than trying to trade with them if you want this degree of control.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

+1

Sep 24 12 11:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


Bluestill Photography wrote:

I couldn't agree with you more or agree with the OP any less, except for the fact that in a layman term the OP indicates that she is an expert in a field that is 100% absolutely subjective. Yet without any evidence or examples, it pretty much becomes nothing but a matter of opinion. OP I understand what you are saying totally about photo selection. I upload all the photos I shoot and allow the model to make their own selection of which photos. I read cases where people say "I don't allow anyone to see my sub par work". I know what I like and what I don't like, so I let the model decide what is spectacular and what is sub par. OP from your indication about knowing lighting, angles, and so on it baffles me why you are not shooting the photo? Shooting with you sound like it would be the equivalent of shooting next to one of those know-it-all-in-one photographers. My question is do you pull out. Light meter when you step on set. I am quite sure the "good photographers" that you speak of, had no idea that by making a small suggestion to you during a shoot, that they were building a Frankenstein. Why don't you just host seminars and teach the entire world the only way it should be done? That might sound like a vicious attack but it really isn't because there are so many ways of doing photography that a few answered questions or opinions does not make you the expert on the science of photography. Otherwise, give up modeling and cash in on it, that is unless you love modeling more than you love cash.

Really? Really? Oh wow...  Never did I say I was an expert at absolutely anything, nor did I say I even had intermediate knowledge of anything. I simply said that I know a bit more about those things than the average joe, and I know a bit more about those things than the average GWC or 'amateur photographer' (A.K.A, average joe).

Read that last paragraph again, since your ego seemed too involved to read my very first post correctly the first time. It's ok, I'll give you a minute.

.
.
.
.
Done? Good. I did not make this thread to talk about how much I know everything in the world. I made this thread to discuss other people's opinions on the subject of photo selects and edits, and if they have ever received a photo back and thought it should have been cropped differently (ie, their chopped off foot should have not been chopped off). Ironically, the post that you quoted before me (posted by a photographer lacking an iota of the ego you display), I whole-heartedly agree with. On a TF shoot, both parties should be at least a bit involved in the selecting process. Unless of course the photographer is a blow-your-mind-holy-crap-amazing quality photog, and whatever they touch turns to gold.

I hope I've explained myself sufficiently for you, and for all the other big-headed photogs who are trying to call me out on shit I never said.

Sep 24 12 12:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


howard r wrote:
i pay my models something (although not their full rate) precisely because i do not want to open my files for their personal selections. a few models may know what they are talking about, but most go straight to mediocre shots and say "ooh - can i get that one?".

if i have to deal with that, i want to be well paid cause it's painful. and then to have to retouch a bad image, even worse.

i will also say i explain all of this upfront, and most models love my selects.

Exactly. If you know how to select well and do post work well (as your port clearly shows), there should be no reason for models wanting a part to play in any of the post-work process. What I was talking about in the beginning, are /photographers/ who go straight for the mediocre shots, or they select a decent shot, but then crop the foot and half the hand off. And then you get shots back from a TF session that are unusable.

Sep 24 12 12:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
sospix
Posts: 21,210
Orlando, Florida, US


I close my eyes and jest click on one or two  .  .  .  sometimes they're the gooduns, sometimes they stink  .  .  .  wink

SOS
Sep 24 12 12:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


sospix wrote:
I close my eyes and jest click on one or two  .  .  .  sometimes they're the gooduns, sometimes they stink  .  .  .  wink

SOS

Seems legit.

Sep 24 12 12:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


If the model was enjoyable to work with I will accommodate certain requests (ex. If we shot three outfits and she wants one extra pic of a certain outfit, or can remember a certain pose that she liked, I will review the images again to see if there is anything worth editing... This is after my initial selection and after I have delivered the final images to model)... This is for fashion/editorial type stuff.

For my artistic, darker stuff, I edit the image I want as I intended it to be before we shot and that is it. Each image is a predetermined concept and each image is finished in such a manner. I am fairly detailed though when describing the concept while working with the model, and review in camera during the shoot constantly... So there really shouldn't be any surprises, but in the end the model has no say in the images that are chosen and the final retouching.
Sep 24 12 01:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote:
If the model was enjoyable to work with I will accommodate certain requests (ex. If we shot three outfits and she wants one extra pic of a certain outfit, or can remember a certain pose that she liked, I will review the images again to see if there is anything worth editing... This is after my initial selection and after I have delivered the final images to model)... This is for fashion/editorial type stuff.

For my artistic, darker stuff, I edit the image I want as I intended it to be before we shot and that is it. Each image is a predetermined concept and each image is finished in such a manner. I am fairly detailed though when describing the concept while working with the model, and review in camera during the shoot constantly... So there really shouldn't be any surprises, but in the end the model has no say in the images that are chosen and the final retouching.

All of that's perfectly reasonable, and it shows in your port that you are deffinately no 'beginning photographer'. smile

Sep 24 12 01:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
sospix
Posts: 21,210
Orlando, Florida, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:

Seems legit.

Actually, having edited photography for print, video/AV, web content and such for many years, it becomes pretty easy to pick the best images out of the bunch  .  .  .  when I shoot, I shoot in twos or threes, when you put all the images from a particular pose up together, one will almost always present itself as the best  .  .  .  if you've shot 20 poses and want to end up with the three best images from the shoot, you just keep repeating the process, matching the every decreasing pool of images against each other, until you end up with the best of the best  .  .  .  I find it best to strike while the iron is hot, and try to do my culling the same day if possible, then the model, the situation and the aim of the shoot are all still fresh in my mind  .  .  .

SOS

Sep 24 12 01:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


sospix wrote:

Actually, having edited photography for print, video/AV, web content and such for many years, it becomes pretty easy to pick the best images out of the bunch  .  .  .  when I shoot, I shoot in twos or threes, when you put all the images from a particular pose up together, one will almost always present itself as the best  .  .  .  if you've shot 20 poses and want to end up with the three best images from the shoot, you just keep repeating the process, matching the every decreasing pool of images against each other, until you end up with the best of the best  .  .  .  I find it best to strike while the iron is hot, and try to do my culling the same day if possible, then the model, the situation and the aim of the shoot are all still fresh in my mind  .  .  .

SOS

That seems like a very effective process, never thought of it before yet so simple. Next time I'm allowed to choose photos, I'll deffinately try that one out smile

Sep 24 12 01:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tim Foster
Posts: 1,758
New York, New York, US


Editing IS choosing photos. Retouching is something else.
Sep 24 12 01:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura BrokenDoll
Posts: 3,550
Modena, Emilia-Romagna, Italy


It happened often - which made me re-think of my ability in choosing collaborations LOL
Now, I try to limit TF* collaborations to people I trust, with whom I've worked before or who have flawless portfolios. Usually, I negotiate to get the chance of choosing one or two pics I like the most, and then I let the photographer do his own choice.
In the past I gave up my policy but - honestly - I don't think it will happen again. That's why I'm shooting less than I used to, but at my own rules.

From time to time, I try to give suggestion about pictures to pick even when I'm hired, but I understand that when I agree on shooting with someone and I get pay for it, I don't have any rights on their choice. That's why mine are just "suggestions" smile
Sep 24 12 01:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
New Art Photo
Posts: 701
Los Angeles, California, US


Doing TF shoots, ( shooting Jpeg), I will often give the girl all the photos at the end of the shoot,
Again and again, I later see them by pass shots that I think are brilliant and post noticeably less-good shots of mine on their MM sites.

This is one area of my work where  I am mellow. They did the work, whatever they want to use is fine with me. On MY site I only post what I think are the best shots.

Am I a better judge of good photos? Most likely-- but as I said, they made the effort to pose, whatever they choose is their business.
Sep 24 12 01:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,409
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


Most businesses have quality control and photography is no differennt:  Many photographers don't want to give out images that are not up to their quality control standards.

Telling a photographer you want to go look through all the images he though did not cut it is like asking a restaurant to let you back into their kitchen so you can poke through the food they thought wasn't good enough to go in your meal.  A few restaurants may not mind, but most probalby will not be pleased with such a request.

I present the model with those images which are a finished product.  The model does have choice - She can use as many or few of them as she wishes.  She can also decline offers to work with photographers who do not produce work that she feels will benefit her.
Sep 24 12 02:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


Abbitt Photography wrote:
Most businesses have quality control and photography is no differennt:  Many photographers don't want to give out images that are not up to their quality control standards.

Telling a photographer you want to go look through all the images he though did not cut it is like asking a restaurant to let you back into their kitchen so you can poke through the food they thought wasn't good enough to go in your meal.  A few restaurants may not mind, but most probalby will not be pleased with such a request.

I present the model with those images which are a finished product.  The model does have choice - She can use as many or few of them as she wishes.  She can also decline offers to work with photographers who do not produce work that she feels will benefit her.

I like your analogy, gave me a really funny mental image smile
I understand where you are coming from completely, but what if a model politely contacted you and pointed out some valid flaws in one of the pictures you sent to her after a TF shoot? Something that could easily be fixed in 2 minutes in a photo editor, and would make the picture better? I'm not trying to debate the plausability of this situation, simply asking what your response would be if it happened smile

Sep 24 12 02:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
V Laroche
Posts: 2,746
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


Photos that would be great for a photographer's portfolio are often not the best for a model's portfolio. That doesn't mean they are "bad at picking photos," it just means that they haven't shot a lot of model ports. You need to communicate your needs better.
Sep 24 12 03:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JGLabs
Posts: 135
Mission Viejo, California, US


I admit I'm bad at this.

A shot appeals to me if it's well lit, exposed well and well composed. I used to be blind to other factors.

I was getting some feedback from my models that they looked horrible in the shots.

I now review each shoot with my wife so I can have a woman's view on it also. She can tell me, "I know you like that one, but there's some fat under her arm, so you can't ever process or upload that one, she'll hate it".

LOL, thank God I have her to review shoots with me.

A man will never be able to know what a woman will like and not like.

It's always a balance between a well taken photo and a photo in which the subject likes the way she looks. Hopefully you get a few keepers each shoot where those two line up.

Also, if the model is willing to give me 20 extra minutes, (and it's TF*), I'll let her review the shots on the back of my camera and write down up to 20 image #s that she wants. That usually works well as they get the ones they want, and I'll choose a few also for my port that may or may not be part of those.


Josh
Sep 24 12 11:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,452
Paris, Île-de-France, France


A N D E R S O N wrote:
That happens a lot, and it's the reason why I don't like to show photos during the shoot. There are lots of things that can go wrong in a photo that is not noticeable in such a small display, focus being a big one.

I agree somewhat. I used to shoot tethered. Now I unplug after some initial tests. In the days of film it worked that way too albeit a Pola 6x6 you didn't see much even with a loop. So the back of camera LCD is still a poor way of judging. Yet I will say this: you really should show the models a few images while shooting when you take a pause, and often enough that it builds confidence. This is with experienced models too.
It makes all the difference in the world, ask any model.

Sep 24 12 11:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vincent Hobbs
Posts: 68
Orlando, Florida, US


Editing, or selecting the final images from a shoot, is one of the toughest tasks a photographer faces. It is just as important as the composition, lighting and mood of the photograph.

Some photographers are very good photo editors and some are not. It takes training to be able to look at an image and make a judgement call as to whether a photo is acceptable or not, or whether it is outstanding or just mediocre.

Some edits are simple, such as getting rid of unflattering poses, blinking eyes or out-of-focus images. Then it gets down to the nitty-gritty, where an editor has to look at every component in that photograph and decide whether or not there is a balance that works.

I edited photographers' work for years as a photo editor at a stock photo agency. What I found out was that a lot of photographers do not know when they have "the shot". So they keep shooting haphazardly in the hopes that they will get it. If a photographer has the skill to know that they have "the shot", when they are shooting, the edit becomes a simple task.

Another pair of eyes on a photo is always a good thing - sometimes a model can see something that the photographer may have missed. However, unless she is looking at images from a reference of other images she has seen that were top-level photos, she will probably be personally focused on minor flaws in the image.

Basically, the way to successfully edit photos is to look at tons of great photos and train your eye to make an evaluation. You really have to study images and have an idea about composition.
Sep 25 12 12:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
howard r
Posts: 485
Los Angeles, California, US


Tim Foster wrote:
Editing IS choosing photos. Retouching is something else.

+1

Sep 25 12 07:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,435
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


PTFPhoto wrote:
My typical method of working is to show the model all the images in camera.  I flag the ones they like there.  When I pull them into LR, I add their choices as selects.  I then add anything I particularly like as selects.  I then weed out any images with technical issues such as poor focus.

The remaining images are then uploaded for model review by interested parties.  I used to do this with SmugMug galleries, but am now using the Lightbox feature on Photoshelter.  That feature lets anyone the gallery is shared with, both rate with 1-5 stars AND comment.  I generally allow 2-5 shots of the models choosing, and 2-5 of my own, and then retouch those. 

I used this new review process two weeks ago for the first time.  The model selected 2 and I selected 2. I had the first retouch done same day, and sent her a proof for FB and personal use.  The remaining images were ready the next evening for the client (magazine).

I think if your process is sound, everyone can be happy with the process, even in a TF scenario.  Everyone has input.  Model has to trust the photographer to select technically good images.  Photographer has to trust the model will select images that show the model in a good way.  The comments section on the review allow a dialog.  In my images last week, the model wanted an image that had the WORST smile, but she loved her pose!  So I retouched it anyway for her. 

I try very hard to be fair and flexible when it comes to shoots.  I think models and clients appreciate that.  And I think it's why I get so much repeat business.  I KNOW there are better shooters out there, but I strive to be sure there are none nicer or more fair.  Everybody needs an angle right?  smile




Your system is very fair.
For me it is more work then 'I' am willing to put in for TF

Sep 25 12 09:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,435
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


Looknsee Photography wrote:
There is no right or wrong when it comes to taste.  Just remember, some people actually do like bagpipe music.

I do!

Sep 25 12 09:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,435
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


Neil Snape wrote:

I agree somewhat. I used to shoot tethered. Now I unplug after some initial tests. In the days of film it worked that way too albeit a Pola 6x6 you didn't see much even with a loop. So the back of camera LCD is still a poor way of judging. Yet I will say this: you really should show the models a few images while shooting when you take a pause, and often enough that it builds confidence. This is with experienced models too.
It makes all the difference in the world, ask any model.

Shooting tethered with dancers will drive you nuts.
"My hands are not quite right." "my thighs look fat". " My leg is not high enough".

Shooting tethered with dancers will give amazing images.

Most models, and photographers will forget what they liked or hated in an image 2 weeks after the fact, if the final was well processed. And I have to let things simmer for a couple of weeks to find the good stuff.

However, there are times when I will post almost immediately, but there is usually a reason for that. And no, I will not discuss on on open forum.

Sep 25 12 09:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SEPhoto
Posts: 8
Lake Charles, Louisiana, US


In the grand scheme of things I am an amateur.  But, after a shoot I always make it a point to show the llama the unedited set and see which ones they really like as well as what I like.  That way I do not spend time editing photos which i am guessing the llama will like.  And a second set of eyes never hurts.  Maybe someone will catch and notice something I didnt.  Just my .02$
Sep 26 12 11:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotographia Fantastique
Posts: 17,324
Lebanon, New Hampshire, US


For test shoots, I already send all the images I think are even passably good. The ones I do not send are ones I deem unacceptable - so there are no shots that the model doesn't get that I would be O.K. with her using/posting. Now there may be ones in that group that she likes/doesn't like, and she's welcome to choose from that subset to use some, all or none, but I'm not likely to take too kindly to requests for more pics from amongst those that I've already rejected as sub par.

I just had this happen on a shoot where we were doing combined digital/film shoots. The digital photos came out fine, and of the pics I sent her, there was only one she didn't like, so she didn't use it and I deleted it as well. The problem came in with the film set where two whole rolls of film didn't come out (I informed the model at the time it was a possibility since it was a test shoot with an experimental camera), yet she still insisted that I scan the pics so she could see what they looked like (keep in mind this is beyond the more than two dozen good digital pics that I'd already sent her from the shoot). I told her I didn't have time to waste scanning photos that I wasn't going to use and didn't want her to use either. I offered to meet up to show her them as that would be quicker, but she didn't want to do that. So I took a webcam pic of me holding a print up and she never responded after that.
Sep 26 12 11:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Black Sunshine
Posts: 811
Austin, Texas, US


Photographers and models have two different agendas when it comes to which photos they pick. Models tend to want themselves to look good, while the photographer wants the image to look good. As a photographer, I don't like giving out images that don't hold up to the standards I expect from myself. But keeping that in mind, I almost always let a model go through the images with me after the shoot and ask which ones she likes and which ones she wants deleted. Then I take it from there.
Sep 26 12 11:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gator River
Posts: 66
Kansas City, Kansas, US


ARA Photo wrote:
Those little screens on the back of cameras are very flattering to the photographer and when images are transferred to a monitor it's much easier to see lack of focus for instance.

You probably didn't get those images as quite simply they were no good at monitor size and resolution.

I'm guilty of doing this. It seems like what both the model and I see on the camera are not always not the best shots when they're shown on the monitor. That being said, I'm more than happy to re-crop or do someting different the model suggets as long as it doesn't take away the vision I had for that shot. Two sets of eyes are better than one.

Sep 26 12 11:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
I'm not even particularily talking about just amateur photographers either, neither am I talking about anyone in particular. I know that photographers and models have different things in mind when choosing photos to edit, but I've recently been in a few positions where I believe much better pictures could/should have been chosen... I've also recently seen photos that should have been cropped differently (going off of cropping criteria that good photographers go by) to look more appealing, yet the choice of crop the photographer applied simply made a good picture look amateur.

Like I said, I know models and photographers have different points of view, however I consider myself a bit on an exception to this since I have learned from good photographers and have trained my eye to look from a photographers point of view as well as a models.

1. So, models, have you received photos back from a promising shoot only to realize there were better photos and/or different changes should have been made in editing to improve the finished photos?

2. Photographers, how would you feel about a model politely contacting you asking to see some more of the unedited photos from the shoot, and choose another one to be edited. And how would you feel/react to a model asking you to make different, specific editing changes to a finished photo?

For simplicity, let's all assume this is all for a TF shoot.


EDIT: To help stem the influx of inflated photographer egos, I'd like to clarify that I am speaking about beginning photographers, photographers who are still learning about their trade, ect. and who like to crop out feet (as an example). I am not stating that I am a master of all things and that I know everything and everyone should bow down to me cause I am the alpha and omega. I simply wanted to start a conversation about quetions 1 and 2.

You're making too big a production about this. You don't need to justify your selection skills and you don't need to make it about lack of selection skills on the photographers part. "Sometimes I think there are photos that I'd rather have, do you think it's ok to ask to see more photos?"

The other thing that's going to get you a big negative response is the use of the word "unedited". That word will set a photographer off, and seeing your edit note, it seems like that's happened in this thread.

Edited or non-edited is not the issue, nor is seeing "all" of the photos. What you need to see is "more" to have more options to choose from. Ask for that and you'll get an better response. The photographer can decide whether they want to edit before showing you more, or show you the unedited versions. You don't need to see technically unusable photos, so why ask to see them?

The photographer may have edited the shoot down to the best 50, edited those and then retouched four. Maybe you just need to see those other 46 and they're already edited. The MM forums train photographers to be suspicious of people asking for unedited photos, and that's not what you want anyway. You want to see more photos, additional photos. And not because there are "better" photos or "better photos for your use" but shots that you remember liking that you'd like to see how they came out.

As far as cropping, you'll have a higher resolution photo if you ask the photographer to do it and they won't get their panties all in a bunch because they read somewhere that since they hold the copyright no one else can do anything to the photo and they should be upset if someone does.

Sep 26 12 12:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


Naomi L A wrote:
I definitely feel like some photos photographers send are not the best. I've viewed photos on cameras and have seen great photos but have never recieved those particular ones. I think that the photographers may be looking for lighting while were looking for poses and beauty.

Photographers look at the image technically. Models look for their flaws and if they can't see them, then it's a good photo.

Viewers see the emotional content which neither of the above have anything to do with.

Sep 26 12 12:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Trulives Photography
Posts: 288
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
I'm still curious to see how you photographers would react to a model mentioning something about the photo selection or editing?

It might 'sting' a little (we're human), but I crave feedback -- especially when it's critical. I don't think there's any benefit for professionals to 'spin' the truth.

I think managing expectations can reduce the problems in this area. Before (and during), I'm always asking how my model 'sees' herself in the photographs. I also talk a lot about what we're shooting, including the 'mood', look, etc.  This has helped me reduce the gap between what I'm trying to create and what the model expects to see.  If I get it wrong, I suck it up and fix it (if I can), and use it as a lesson.  For me, this is the whole point of shooting TF.

Sep 26 12 12:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


MC Photo wrote:

You're making too big a production about this. You don't need to justify your selection skills and you don't need to make it about lack of selection skills on the photographers part. "Sometimes I think there are photos that I'd rather have, do you think it's ok to ask to see more photos?"

The other thing that's going to get you a big negative response is the use of the word "unedited". That word will set a photographer off, and seeing your edit note, it seems like that's happened in this thread.

Edited or non-edited is not the issue, nor is seeing "all" of the photos. What you need to see is "more" to have more options to choose from. Ask for that and you'll get an better response. The photographer can decide whether they want to edit before showing you more, or show you the unedited versions. You don't need to see technically unusable photos, so why ask to see them?

The photographer may have edited the shoot down to the best 50, edited those and then retouched four. Maybe you just need to see those other 46 and they're already edited. The MM forums train photographers to be suspicious of people asking for unedited photos, and that's not what you want anyway. You want to see more photos, additional photos. And not because there are "better" photos or "better photos for your use" but shots that you remember liking that you'd like to see how they came out.

As far as cropping, you'll have a higher resolution photo if you ask the photographer to do it and they won't get their panties all in a bunch because they read somewhere that since they hold the copyright no one else can do anything to the photo and they should be upset if someone does.

Thank you very much for your informative response and advice! It was very helpful, I never thought of the word choice making such a difference, but it makes perfect sense.

Sep 26 12 01:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Anthony Altamore
Posts: 58
Chicago, Illinois, US


On TF shoots I give a larger-than-usual amount of retouched images so the model has more options to choose from (assuming they all meet a base level of quality in my eyes).  I don't provide proofs, because much of what makes or breaks an image for me happens during post (cropping, color grading, and retouching can completely alter a shot, and some don't work as well as others).  I communicate this with the models beforehand, and I've never had a request for additional shots.  It also helps that I shoot tethered and we review the images as we go, so by the end they trust my artistic eye.

The only time I've had a request for changes came from the model's agency, when they asked to use two images for her book but wanted them in B&W because her hair dye was faded.  I had no problem with that.  But otherwise, it's pretty much "what you see is what you get."

On a side note, it sort of irks me that people say photographers only look at composition and models only care about how they look.  An image can be technically perfect, but I'll never want to use it if the model has a dead expression.  And often I'll use images that are far from perfect, because the mood of it is more important to my artistic vision. (typically they're imperfect on purpose, but that's neither here nor there)
Sep 26 12 01:35 pm  Link  Quote 
first123   Search   Reply



main | browse | casting/travel | forums | shout box | help | advertising | contests | share | join the mayhem

more modelmayhem on: | | | edu

©2006-2014 ModelMayhem.com. All Rights Reserved.
MODEL MAYHEM is a registered trademark.
Toggle Worksafe Mode: Off | On
Terms | Privacy | Careers