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Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


I answered an ad to be someone's photography assistant/test shoot model. We discussed over email what all that covers, and we also discussed that while I'm uncomfortable with doing nudes, I do enjoy implied shoots and am willing to be 'sexy' as long as I don't have to be naked. He sends me email confirmation that that's fine, no nudes if I don't want too as long as I'm comfortable with other models being nude when I work with him/them.

So I show up and were taking pictures, and its going fine, until we get to the implied shots, where he tells me to take my top off, which I do while still covering my chest with my arms. Then he asks "why are you covering your nipples, is there something your trying to hide?" and pulls my arm away. I step back, put on my top and say sorry, "I'm only ok with implied nudity, we discussed this"

He then goes on to show me a bunch of nude pictures he's taken and tells me what I think is implied is wrong, that showing nipple, etc is still implied. When I disagree and say teh opposite, he tells me I'm not sexy enough and rudely suggests our time is up. So I leave and he never sent me the pictures he took of me, even when I emailed him after the fact for them.

So I'm not wrong here, right? Implied does not mean topless, an implied shoot could be done wearing pasties because isnt the whole point to look naked while not actually showing anything?

(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.
Oct 03 12 09:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,424
Paris, Île-de-France, France


You were clear, and you even gave him the benefit of the doubt.

You have nothing to hide and are perfectly clear, implied only.

I think you better CAM this photographer, they have absolutely no right to treat you this way. IF you have saved out PM or email etc, where you said implied only, keep them for proof.

What a dick, and how dare he take your arms away like that.
Oct 03 12 09:22 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Cynthia Serrano
Posts: 12,436
Newark, New Jersey, US


Neil Snape wrote:
You were clear, and you even gave him the benefit of the doubt.

You have nothing to hide and are perfectly clear, implied only.

I think you better CAM this photographer, they have absolutely no right to treat you this way. IF you have saved out PM or email etc, where you said implied only, keep them for proof.

What a dick, and how dare he take your arms away like that.

This x 100 what a prick if he wanted a nude shot he should've hired a nude model point blank

Oct 03 12 09:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 7,817
Olney, Maryland, US


I completely support you and he has no right to use physical force.  However, "implied" is defined in different ways.  You can find threads on MM arguing about this.  Myself, I agree that showing nipples is not implied.

I would expect a model to walk out at this point:

Alixx Rose wrote:
(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.

Oct 03 12 09:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 14,729
Orlando, Florida, US


The question about having sex with the photographer didn't raise a large enough red flag?
Oct 03 12 09:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
He sends me email confirmation that that's fine, no nudes if I don't want too as long as I'm comfortable with other models being nude when I work with him/them.

I realize hindsight is 20/20 but THAT would have been the red flag that should have prompted the response...

"I appreciate your interest but it seems we are on different pages regarding content. Thanks and good luck with your project."

So, he was going to had other nude models and you were going to feel comfortable being the only clothed model on the set? Of course he was going to try to talk you into nudity and make you feel guilty once you were on set.

But to go even further and actually put his hands on you is beyond incomprehensible to me. CAM the photographer if he's a member. That will also give him the opportunity to respond to the mods and give his side.

Where do these people come from? smh.

Oct 03 12 09:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.

Wow, I hadn't even read this. And you still continued with the shoot? Uh, yeah it's wrong. It's also wrong to proceed with a shoot that is clearly not in the interest of photography.

Oct 03 12 09:38 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
Sid Rodriguez
Posts: 216
Wilmington, Delaware, US


Implied is just that implied... topless is topless...

I'd CAM him for grabbing your arm...
Oct 03 12 09:39 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


well kinda, but it was a pretty long application, I wrote NO and moved on. if anything that question could have been to weed out the  girls who are hoes who think they can model, in order to judge proffesionalism..
Oct 03 12 09:40 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:

I realize hindsight is 20/20 but THAT would have been the red flag that should have prompted the response...

"I appreciate your interest but it seems we are on different pages regarding content. Thanks and good luck with your project."

So, he was going to had other nude models and you were going to feel comfortable being the only clothed model on the set? Of course he was going to try to talk you into nudity and make you feel guilty once you were on set.

But to go even further and actually put his hands on you is beyond incomprehensible to me. CAM the photographer if he's a member. That will also give him the opportunity to respond to the mods and give his side.

Where do these people come from? smh.

if i was going to be his photography assistant, wouldnt it be silly of me to say he couldnt shoot other models nude?

Oct 03 12 09:42 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


i'm also not sure what CAM is.
Oct 03 12 09:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Nick Peluffo
Posts: 119
Brooklyn, New York, US


There's no grey area here. Even if you had agreed to something and then changed your mind (which doesn't seem the case), there's no excuse for being pushy and certainly no excuse to push/pull anything without express permission.

That thing about the playful sexual relations should be a dead giveaway though, you should be more careful.

Good luck with future photographers, I hate to think how many shitty people are out there.
Oct 03 12 09:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4,514
Houston, Texas, US


He's predator posing as a photographer.....  If he's on MM.. he SHOULD be CAM'd. If you have a copy of the application asking about "playful sexual relationship" that should really be presented to the proper people. 

Regarding pulling  your arms away, I'd consider actions like that to be assault.

I have no patience for people like that.
Oct 03 12 09:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,424
Paris, Île-de-France, France


CAM is Contact a Moderator. Links will be in the site related form .
Oct 03 12 09:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


this was actually the first time i met with someone who claimed to be a professional photographer. since then i've been more picky and checking references
Oct 03 12 09:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rfordphotos
Posts: 4,416
Antioch, California, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
The question about having sex with the photographer didn't raise a large enough red flag?

I am sure you know this now, but this should have set off all your warning bells.

Learn to listen to your instinct, your "gut" feeling.

It sounds like you made a good try at communicating your limits, but ran into someone who chose not to respect them, or you. No one has a right to grab your arm or any other part of you, ever.

Oct 03 12 09:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4,514
Houston, Texas, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
this was actually the first time i met with someone who claimed to be a professional photographer. since then i've been more picky and checking references

Words are cheap.  It's a lousy way to learn that.

Oct 03 12 09:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPierce Photography
Posts: 19,356
Amherst, Massachusetts, US


Neil Snape wrote:
You were clear, and you even gave him the benefit of the doubt.

You have nothing to hide and are perfectly clear, implied only.

I think you better CAM this photographer, they have absolutely no right to treat you this way. IF you have saved out PM or email etc, where you said implied only, keep them for proof.

What a dick, and how dare he take your arms away like that.

+ a million!

Oct 03 12 09:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
if i was going to be his photography assistant, wouldnt it be silly of me to say he couldnt shoot other models nude?

Not as silly as expecting his photography assistant to be posing nude.

I'm confused. If you were applying for a job as an assistant why were you modeling at all...let alone nude? Shouldn't you have been assisting? And why is he searching for models to be his assistant? All really really RED flags.

Oct 03 12 09:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotographybyT
Posts: 7,561
Monterey, California, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
well kinda, but it was a pretty long application, I wrote NO and moved on. if anything that question could have been to weed out the  girls who are hoes who think they can model, in order to judge proffesionalism..

Do you really think that?

I agree with the others here who consider him a prick.

Oct 03 12 09:53 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 1,694
Muncie, Indiana, US


CAM means Contact A Moderator.
Oct 03 12 09:57 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:

Not as silly as expecting his photography assistant to be posing nude.

I'm confused. If you were applying for a job as an assistant why were you modeling at all...let alone nude? Shouldn't you have been assisting? And why is he searching for models to be his assistant? All really really RED flags.

photography assistant/test shoot model

Oct 03 12 10:02 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


he changed his model mayhem name, but I just browsed till i found him so i'm gonna CAM now.
Oct 03 12 10:03 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


PhotographybyT wrote:

Do you really think that?

I agree with the others here who consider him a prick.

i didnt really know what to think, as it was my first time doing anything of the sort, but yea, i agree he's a prick as well

Oct 03 12 10:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 11,605
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Actually implied was that the subject could be nude.  Like when we did bare shoulders head shots.  Maybe the model is topless or maybe not.

Demure was the term we always used for cover up shots.  So to us old timers you actually went farther.  This putz however wanted more and didn't care that you said no before hand.  They figured they could "talk you into it".

You did the right thing and I doubt you will miss those images from this GWC
Oct 03 12 10:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MesmerEyes Photography
Posts: 2,727
Tyler, Texas, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
this was actually the first time i met with someone who claimed to be a professional photographer. since then i've been more picky and checking references

Being a professional photographer and acting professional are two different things. It is a shame that people try to take advantage of other people. References will help in the future but that still doesn't mean that they will not try to take advantage of you.

Implied means just that implied.

Also, in some states just touching some one can be considered assault, either physical or sexual assault. You should find out the laws where you are shooting at and if anyone touches you again in that way you would be perfectly justified in calling the police. Just be sure that they meant it in that way. If they didn't and was just trying to fix a problem with say your hair or wardrobe you could ruin both your and their careers' and or personal life. (I always ask before even touching a garment the model is wearing, but some may not.)

And you should definitely contact a moderator if this photographer is on MM. If he has tried it once he will try it again.

Oct 03 12 10:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MesmerEyes Photography
Posts: 2,727
Tyler, Texas, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:
Not as silly as expecting his photography assistant to be posing nude.

I'm confused. If you were applying for a job as an assistant why were you modeling at all...let alone nude? Shouldn't you have been assisting? And why is he searching for models to be his assistant? All really really RED flags.

Models can actually be great assistants. Also helps to have a model/assistant if a model doesn't show up for a shoot that you either have a deadline for or have hired others for the same shoot. For instance, lets say I am shooting a series that requires three different models one of which doesn't show up. Should I just say oh well and pay the other two with no images. Or worse what if it is a TF and the other two models need images but no third model so I just have to shoot and edit ect but not get anything close to what I wanted or needed. By having an assistant that is also a model she could just step in, problem solved.

Oct 03 12 10:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Nick Peluffo
Posts: 119
Brooklyn, New York, US


Don't think it's being emphasized enough:
Check references; it's one of the best features of this site.

It's as simple as clicking on any model that's credited and sending her a private message. It's no big deal to ask them how their experience was with any photographer you're thinking of working with.

If photographers don't have credits, or if models don't respond, which could be because they are hesitant about saying negative things, I'd be weary.
Oct 03 12 10:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MDWM
Posts: 405
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.

If someone is so stupid to put this on an application, do you think they care that the answer is NO? By staying, it means maybe. You should have been out the door once you read this.

Oct 03 12 10:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


why would someone offer a reference of a person they worked with that  didn't go well? If I were to give a list of references, for anything, they would all be people who would say good things about me. I wouldnt use someone who had a bad experience with me as my reference, and I don't know why anyone else would either.
Oct 03 12 10:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MesmerEyes Photography
Posts: 2,727
Tyler, Texas, US


Nick Peluffo wrote:
Don't think it's being emphasized enough:
Check references; it's one of the best features of this site.

It's as simple as clicking on any model that's credited and sending her a private message. It's no big deal to ask them how their experience was with any photographer you're thinking of working with.

If photographers don't have credits, or if models don't respond, which could be because they are hesitant about saying negative things, I'd be weary.

Yes be weary but don't rule them out. Just because a photographer doesn't credit the model doesn't mean that they would have given a bad reference. Some models ask to not be credited on some things. For instance, she says on her profile that she doesn't shoot nudes and doesn't have any in her portfolio, but will shoot nudes for cash money but doesn't want others hounding her about it, thus no credit given. Or the model isn't on MM how do you credit them, you could put their modeling name but that wouldn't help because well you can't look up a fake name in the phone book.

It sounds like to me that this guy wouldn't be posting her photos in his portfolio anyway. So do you think that he would be posting any of the others that had a bad experience with him? I'm not saying don't worry about checking references because that can weed out some of the creeps but not all.

Oct 03 12 11:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MDWM
Posts: 405
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Nick Peluffo wrote:
Don't think it's being emphasized enough:
Check references; it's one of the best features of this site.

It's as simple as clicking on any model that's credited and sending her a private message. It's no big deal to ask them how their experience was with any photographer you're thinking of working with.

If photographers don't have credits, or if models don't respond, which could be because they are hesitant about saying negative things, I'd be weary.

I agree with checking references and that applies beyond modeling/photography but predators are patient and will wait for the right situation or victim. You need to exercise common sense and street smarts as well. This guy raised red flags all over the place.

Oct 03 12 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,064
Portland, Oregon, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
why would someone offer a reference of a person they worked with that  didn't go well? If I were to give a list of references, for anything, they would all be people who would say good things about me. I wouldnt use someone who had a bad experience with me as my reference, and I don't know why anyone else would either.

While most people would assume the same thing, sometimes people do give out references they think will be positive and yet they come back negative, so one can't assume that even supplied references will always check out.

There are some out there that don't see anything wrong with what they do, so it does not cross their minds that someone would say something bad about them.

In checking references though, many of us are not relying exclusively on supplied references, we may contact models/photographers they credit on the photos rather than a supplied list.

Basically, get creative and doing a bit of research to try to find out the truth.

Lastly, sorry that this happened to you.  Totally not acceptable.

Oct 03 12 11:40 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelleth
Posts: 2,441
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


He's clearly just a pervert.
Oct 03 12 11:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,424
Paris, Île-de-France, France


DougBPhoto wrote:
While most people would assume the same thing, sometimes people do give out references they think will be positive and yet they come back negative, so one can't assume that even supplied references will always check out.

References can be useful in other ways.

For example recently I shot a lot of fantastic expo series, some of which are on my pages temporarily until I can select the finals.

Some models would be concerned about when they get their images how fast what ever. Since I haven't selected finals, I haven't sent the images quickly as I can't. That is the type of information that may be good for models to send each other, or even things like, food if provided, how shoots went, timing, anything really. Not all information by way of messaging for references has to be bad in the way of http://assets.modelmayhem.com/images/smilies/scary.pngillegal, etc, yet some info may be useful for each model.


I really do recommend models help each others and check for every single shoot.

Oct 03 12 12:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 7,791
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


Good Egg Productions wrote:
The question about having sex with the photographer didn't raise a large enough red flag?

+1

Oct 03 12 12:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,310
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.

wait, this was a modeling gig, right?

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png

Oct 03 12 12:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 7,791
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


Alixx Rose wrote:
why would someone offer a reference of a person they worked with that  didn't go well? If I were to give a list of references, for anything, they would all be people who would say good things about me. I wouldnt use someone who had a bad experience with me as my reference, and I don't know why anyone else would either.

Excellent point that is often mentioned, and still forgotten when people keep saying check references. Also as pointed out, if no references, you may want to think hard. And sometimes a photographer will reference someone that put up with crap, and the photographer thinks they got away with it.

Oct 03 12 12:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
john_ellis
Posts: 4,375
Spokane, Washington, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
So I'm not wrong here, right? Implied does not mean topless, an implied shoot could be done wearing pasties because isnt the whole point to look naked while not actually showing anything?

That's my definition of it. 

(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.

That's pretty fucked up.

Alixx Rose wrote:
well kinda, but it was a pretty long application, I wrote NO and moved on. if anything that question could have been to weed out the  girls who are hoes who think they can model, in order to judge proffesionalism..

I don't think that was his intentions with that question at all.  I think he was trying to see which girls would be willing to wax his monopod.

Dude's a creep.

Oct 03 12 12:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
New Art Photo
Posts: 701
Los Angeles, California, US


(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.

??!      When you saw this question you should have been running for the door.
Also, in my world, serious photographers don't "grab a models arm" to reveal their nipples.  That's not what  most people consider professional behavior..

Oct 03 12 12:49 pm  Link  Quote 
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