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Model
A M Y B
Posts: 127
Providence, Rhode Island, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
why would someone offer a reference of a person they worked with that  didn't go well? If I were to give a list of references, for anything, they would all be people who would say good things about me. I wouldnt use someone who had a bad experience with me as my reference, and I don't know why anyone else would either.

The way it's supposed to work is that nobody ends up a problem for anyone else, it's an honor code kind of system I guess. If u want the honest opinions, PM the models who have credited the photographers images but are not featured on the shooters page himself, and vice versa for models. It's the easiest way to find out the "quirks" of certain people you may have interest working with because these aren't the top buddies of your shooter but they still have the insight you are looking for. Also the longer you are here and the more people you work with, the more people will open up or show concern if a photog is believed to be, let's word it, anything but pro ..

Sorry for your bad experience sad it happens, but the CAM feature helped me with a stalking issue I was having here so I'm sure it can take some of the edge off for you as well! Best of luck xx

Oct 03 12 12:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jordan Bunniie
Posts: 1,625
Los Angeles, California, US


Neil Snape wrote:
You were clear, and you even gave him the benefit of the doubt.

You have nothing to hide and are perfectly clear, implied only.

I think you better CAM this photographer, they have absolutely no right to treat you this way. IF you have saved out PM or email etc, where you said implied only, keep them for proof.

What a dick, and how dare he take your arms away like that.

^^^^

Oct 03 12 12:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


New Art Photo wrote:
.
Also, in my world, serious photographers don't "grab a models arm" to reveal their nipples.  That's not what  most people consider professional behavior..

well duh. thats why i left. and have now reported him..

Things like "oh, you should have known" arent really helpful, now are they?

Oct 03 12 01:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,781
Olivet, Michigan, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
I answered an ad to be someone's photography assistant/test shoot model. We discussed over email what all that covers, and we also discussed that while I'm uncomfortable with doing nudes, I do enjoy implied shoots and am willing to be 'sexy' as long as I don't have to be naked. He sends me email confirmation that that's fine, no nudes if I don't want too as long as I'm comfortable with other models being nude when I work with him/them.

So I show up and were taking pictures, and its going fine, until we get to the implied shots, where he tells me to take my top off, which I do while still covering my chest with my arms. Then he asks "why are you covering your nipples, is there something your trying to hide?" and pulls my arm away. I step back, put on my top and say sorry, "I'm only ok with implied nudity, we discussed this"

He then goes on to show me a bunch of nude pictures he's taken and tells me what I think is implied is wrong, that showing nipple, etc is still implied. When I disagree and say teh opposite, he tells me I'm not sexy enough and rudely suggests our time is up. So I leave and he never sent me the pictures he took of me, even when I emailed him after the fact for them.

So I'm not wrong here, right? Implied does not mean topless, an implied shoot could be done wearing pasties because isnt the whole point to look naked while not actually showing anything?

(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.

Usually, shooting nudes means BEING topless / nude, unless it's discussed otherwise.  But it certainly doesn't man having your fully exposed breasts in the final pictures.

Oct 03 12 09:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,765
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.

If you didn't leave then, you deserve what you got.  Don't be stupid then whine about the results.

Oct 03 12 09:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
john_ellis
Posts: 4,375
Spokane, Washington, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.
BTHPhoto wrote:
If you didn't leave then, you deserve what you got.  Don't be stupid then whine about the results.

Wait.  She deserved that because she stayed???

What in the fuck is wrong with the people on this site?

Oct 03 12 09:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Sakura Love
Posts: 28
Hong Kong, Hong Kong, China


The guy is a monster!
Oct 03 12 10:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 2,894
Royal Oak, Michigan, US


He asked you if you were willing to have sex with him in writing and you stayed?
Oct 03 12 10:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bluestill Photography
Posts: 1,797
Seattle, Washington, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
The question about having sex with the photographer didn't raise a large enough red flag?

THIS!!!!

Oct 03 12 10:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Blue Ash Film Group
Posts: 9,332
Cincinnati, Ohio, US


Why do so many of these stories like this on this site come out of Atlanta? I feel sorry for the legitimate photographers from there on this site.
Oct 03 12 10:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
V Laroche
Posts: 2,745
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
well kinda, but it was a pretty long application, I wrote NO and moved on. if anything that question could have been to weed out the  girls who are hoes who think they can model, in order to judge proffesionalism..

There are models who are also sex workers just like there are sex workers who are kindergarten teachers. There is no negative correlation between modeling ability and sex work.

Oct 03 12 10:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
-Koa-
Posts: 5,250
Castaner, Puerto Rico, US


OP,
You should have been friendlier and introduced his groin to your knee.

-Koa-
www.borikenwarrior.com
www.facebook.com/borikenwarriorstudiosmodels
Oct 03 12 10:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
Pretty Deadly Stylz
Posts: 559
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


This really sucks and firstly I am truly sorry you went through that.

Secondly, I don't think anyone really means any harm in how they are phrasing their responses. It's a little shocking and dumbfounding to continue to hear stories like this. So you do get a lot of "really you couldn't tell" responses.

But having been a newbie model once, a long time ago. wink I do know how it can be when you are building your dreams. So my only advice is to listen to your gut instinct about things. Be smarter, think about the situation with your brain and not just your heart.

There are always going to be people who can look, and even be vouched for as real/legit anything. Any job, person etc, can potentially be fake. And some are legit, just jerks. Its not paranoia its just the world we live in.

Make sure you look at the whole picture, and from that decide the best moves for you.

Yes there were some definite warning signs, but sometimes when you want something bad enough you ignore those.

Hopefully its a learned lesson, which you will grow from, and  I do wish you a safe & smart future/career.
Oct 03 12 10:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
New Art Photo
Posts: 701
Los Angeles, California, US


Not to throw this in another  direction;  but some months back a young girl who wanted to model posted an email exchange she had with a notorious but very successful fashion photographer ( Who was not named Theodore Roosevelt--but close.)
This exchange seemed legit, and he basically told her she would have to have sex with him if he brought her in to photograph;  and when she said no, he curtly told her there were twenty other girls who would if she passed up the opportunity.  ( So this stuff happens and it's not just some low level guy in the woods with his questionaire.)
Oct 03 12 10:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MB Jen B
Posts: 2,865
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
... Then he...pulls my arm away....

Over, right there.

Jen
p.s. edit

-Koa- wrote:
OP,
You should have been friendlier and introduced his groin to your knee.

-Koa-
www.borikenwarrior.com
www.facebook.com/borikenwarriorstudiosmodels

Bueno!

Oct 03 12 11:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
All Yours Photography
Posts: 2,246
Toledo, Ohio, US


BTHPhoto wrote:

If you didn't leave then, you deserve what you got.  Don't be stupid then whine about the results.

Models in the Fairbanks area may want to take note of this attitude.

Oct 03 12 11:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4,319
Asheville, North Carolina, US


BTHPhoto wrote:
If you didn't leave then, you deserve what you got.  Don't be stupid then whine about the results.

BTH, there are times I like things you say but I disagree with you here and I'll explain why.

I like the op's explanation: 1: That it was a fairly long questionnaire 2: That she answered no 3: That she viewed the question as possibly being one to weed out respondents who were viewing the gig as sex work.

There are photographers who work with different people creating varying types of content. I think the op showed an admirable level of both open mindedness and professionalism. I value and like to work with people who exhibit these traits.

It could be said that the op was not suspicious or cynical enough, a criticism that I view as being both somewhat true and a sad commentary on the ethics, business practices and personal behavior of some individuals.

Oct 04 12 06:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4,319
Asheville, North Carolina, US


OP: I'm only hearing your side of it but I'll say that you sound reasonable, open minded and professional and that you dealt with a challenging situation in an admirable way.

The behavior you describe is over the line to the extent that I'd suggest, as others have, to use the CAM function.
Oct 04 12 06:18 am  Link  Quote 
Model
_Rei_
Posts: 124
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


Alixx Rose wrote:
I answered an ad to be someone's photography assistant/test shoot llama. We discussed over email what all that covers, and we also discussed that while I'm uncomfortable with doing nudes, I do enjoy implied shoots and am willing to be 'sexy' as long as I don't have to be naked. He sends me email confirmation that that's fine, no nudes if I don't want too as long as I'm comfortable with other llamas being nude when I work with him/them.

Unfortunately, it sometimes takes a few bad experiences to work out the kinds of behaviour that constitutes "red flags" before you've even shown up to a shoot. Good on you for standing your ground and sticking to your limits - this guy is a Grade-A jerk who displayed so many levels of unacceptable behaviour it makes my head spin.

Something I've learned is that often when photographers want to spend a lot of time discussing my limits, it's because they want to shoot something that goes beyond that and hope they can change my mind by getting me to endlessly go over the subject in detail. It's not a guaranteed tip-off for a creep (nothing is), but it's a little warning sign for me. Hope that helps.

Oct 04 12 06:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Woven Thought
Posts: 329
Petersburg, Virginia, US


KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
He's predator posing as a photographer.....  If he's on MM.. he SHOULD be CAM'd. If you have a copy of the application asking about "playful sexual relationship" that should really be presented to the proper people. 

Regarding pulling  your arms away, I'd consider actions like that to be assault.

I have no patience for people like that.

I'm of the same mind.

A photographer is NOT God, and one that takes that role is hoping for the naive model to cave and cringe and give in to his demands.  Yes, he's manipulative and a predator.

Don't ignore your instincts.  When the flags go up, pay attention.  That question is absolutely out of the realm of acceptable.  Wow wow wow. 

I read about it all the time that some people see other people just as meat, but still never fails to amaze me.  This is the same mentality that serial killers have.

Oct 04 12 06:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Woven Thought
Posts: 329
Petersburg, Virginia, US


BTHPhoto wrote:

If you didn't leave then, you deserve what you got.  Don't be stupid then whine about the results.

Cold hearted ass, aren't you?  I take it you were never young, inexperienced, and thought the world was your oyster?  Came out of the womb an insensitive rock?

Oct 04 12 06:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Woven Thought
Posts: 329
Petersburg, Virginia, US


Blue Ash Film Group wrote:
Why do so many of these stories like this on this site come out of Atlanta? I feel sorry for the legitimate photographers from there on this site.

Being from the south, there is a decent segment of the population that believe women are to be pretty things for men.  The women believe this too.  Very unfortunate, and certainly not confined only to the south, but it's a deep-seated tradition here to produce the Southern Belle.

Oct 04 12 07:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Donald M Falls
Posts: 130
Rochester, New York, US


This is a little off topic what I am about to talk about:

I have similar argument about implied vs. nude.

I believe implied meaning nude but covering up the nipples, and private parts.   Nude, basically no cover, bare body. So, this is what I think it means.

However, one model charges more for implied nude than artistic nude.  And I was asking her why implied cost more than artistic nude? She never respond.

I don't get it.

Can someone tell me there is a good reason for implied to cost more than artistic nude?
Oct 04 12 07:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6,338
Dallas, Texas, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
...Then he asks "why are you covering your nipples, is there something your trying to hide?" and pulls my arm away. I step back, put on my top and say sorry, "I'm only ok with implied nudity, we discussed this"...

- just wrong, totally wrong...you should have left right then.

Alixx Rose wrote:
...He then goes on to show me a bunch of nude pictures he's taken and tells me what I think is implied is wrong, that showing nipple, etc is still implied.

So I'm not wrong here, right? Implied does not mean topless, an implied shoot could be done wearing pasties because isnt the whole point to look naked while not actually showing anything?

Different photographers have different definitions of "implied", but the most popular general definition is "model appears to be nude but isn't showing anything...no nipples, no pubic area, and - typically - no full on view of butt".

When I want to shoot implied shots, I hire nude models...'sorry, but the whole trying to keep it implied in the studio, even between poses just puts too big of a crimp in the creative process...and the resulting shots will usually show it.

Alixx Rose wrote:
...(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.

If there weren't already enough danger signal flags already flying - this one seals the deal.  The guy may make money with photography, but his behavior would not be considered "professional" by the vast majority of the people here on MM (or anywhere else for that matter).

Yes - if he is on MM...CAM him.

Oct 04 12 07:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Drew Smith Photography
Posts: 5,209
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom


OP - the 'arm grabbing' to reveal your breasts: that's assault, probably sexual assault depending on the intent and depending which country/state you are in. You therefore may want to consider more appropriate action.

Having said that, there's always two sides to a story. I'm not implying that you aren't telling the truth, but we only have yours.

But let me ask you this; when you read the line about 'having playful sex with him' what did you think he'd put that in for?

If you'd gone along for an interview as, say, a Clerical Assistant, or Librarian, or Lumberjack, and that was a question on a form, what would you have thought?
Oct 04 12 07:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ChanStudio
Posts: 9,159
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
I answered an ad to be someone's photography assistant/test shoot model. We discussed over email what all that covers, and we also discussed that while I'm uncomfortable with doing nudes, I do enjoy implied shoots and am willing to be 'sexy' as long as I don't have to be naked. He sends me email confirmation that that's fine, no nudes if I don't want too as long as I'm comfortable with other models being nude when I work with him/them.

So I show up and were taking pictures, and its going fine, until we get to the implied shots, where he tells me to take my top off, which I do while still covering my chest with my arms. Then he asks "why are you covering your nipples, is there something your trying to hide?" and pulls my arm away. I step back, put on my top and say sorry, "I'm only ok with implied nudity, we discussed this"

He then goes on to show me a bunch of nude pictures he's taken and tells me what I think is implied is wrong, that showing nipple, etc is still implied. When I disagree and say teh opposite, he tells me I'm not sexy enough and rudely suggests our time is up. So I leave and he never sent me the pictures he took of me, even when I emailed him after the fact for them.

So I'm not wrong here, right? Implied does not mean topless, an implied shoot could be done wearing pasties because isnt the whole point to look naked while not actually showing anything?

(also on the application he gave me to fill out after i arrived was a question of would I be willing to have playful sexual relationship with said photographer) in my opinion, that's just wrong.

You were clear and you did what you feel comfortable with.  Since he doesn't like it, that is his issue, not yours..

  You did the right thing..

Oct 04 12 07:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Joe WoW Photos
Posts: 640
Dayton, Ohio, US


Technically the minute he grabbed your arms to reveal your nudity, you could have called the police...  Id recommend you still do that and make a report. Don't worry about your pictures.. worry more about your safety, and the safety of others.
Oct 04 12 07:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Camabs
Posts: 323
Utrecht, Utrecht, Netherlands


BTHPhoto wrote:

If you didn't leave then, you deserve what you got.  Don't be stupid then whine about the results.

`

Noone deserves to be assaulted, period. -.-

Oct 04 12 08:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sleepy Weasel
Posts: 4,552
Castle Rock, Colorado, US


BTHPhoto wrote:

If you didn't leave then, you deserve what you got.  Don't be stupid then whine about the results.

Wow, dude. Really? Holy shit, what a fucking stupid thing to say.

Oct 04 12 01:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SitronStudio
Posts: 1,058
Venice, Florida, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
why would someone offer a reference of a person they worked with that  didn't go well? If I were to give a list of references, for anything, they would all be people who would say good things about me. I wouldnt use someone who had a bad experience with me as my reference, and I don't know why anyone else would either.

There were no MM models on his port you could have messaged for references? I'm always amazed when prospective models don't contact other models I've got links to for references. I always contact other photographers they've worked with that are on the site. But then some people are a little too paranoid. I had one model cancel the morning of the shoot because I had an out of state cell #. I explained that I moved recently and there was no need to change it. They said it was creepy. Oh well....

Oct 04 12 01:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alixx Rose
Posts: 225
Atlanta, Georgia, US


i didnt have an mm page at this point.. can you message a model without being a member?
Oct 04 12 02:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,616
Portland, Oregon, US


Alixx Rose wrote:
i didnt have an mm page at this point.. can you message a model without being a member?

Not via the site, you would need to find some other means to contact them (such as info on their profile.)

You need to be a member to PM or Tag.

Oct 04 12 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
T Brown
Posts: 2,247
Traverse City, Michigan, US


We don't need his kind here, CAM him and kick him to the curb.

Also sounds like he needs to have someone clean his clock..
Oct 04 12 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
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