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Photographer
Francisco Castro
Posts: 1,675
Cincinnati, Ohio, US


Is is just me, or is anyone else annoyed whenever they see a casting call for a TF shoot for weddings/baptisms/Bar Mitzvahs/Quincinieras/etc.? I appreciate the fact that some people's budget is really tight, but I think that's abusing the system.

It's an insane amount of work to shoot events like weddings, and I think it's just tacky not to even offer a modicum amount.

I know some people will say, "It's their time. If they want to shoot a wedding TF then that's their business.". And I agree. It's their time and effort. Let them deal with it.

But what do you think? Asking a wedding be shot TF--- tacky, or not-tacky?
Oct 04 12 10:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
-Ira
Posts: 2,180
New York, New York, US


Francisco Castro wrote:
Asking a wedding be shot TF--- tacky, or not-tacky?

Tacky.  Guess they feel like it can't hurt to ask.  But don't be surprised when you get what you paid for.

Edit:  I've also seen TF casting's for businesses.  Simply ridiculous.

Oct 04 12 10:17 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Matthew Belshaw
Posts: 33
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


That sadly is the culture we live in today. Everyone is out for what they can get, everything costs money and so people will try anything they can to get free stuff.

It would be funny if the photographer took along 300 model release forms for every person at the wedding though
Oct 04 12 10:30 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8,099
Tucson, Arizona, US


If they can get someone whose quality of work they like for free, why would they pay?
Oct 04 12 11:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,031
Portland, Oregon, US


Francisco Castro wrote:
Is is just me, or is anyone else annoyed whenever they see a casting call for a TF shoot for weddings/baptisms/Bar Mitzvahs/Quincinieras/etc.? I appreciate the fact that some people's budget is really tight, but I think that's abusing the system.

It's an insane amount of work to shoot events like weddings, and I think it's just tacky not to even offer a modicum amount.

I know some people will say, "It's their time. If they want to shoot a wedding TF then that's their business.". And I agree. It's their time and effort. Let them deal with it.

But what do you think? Asking a wedding be shot TF--- tacky, or not-tacky?

I got no problem with it.

If I 9you) don't want to do an event for TF*, i (you) don't have to.

What other people agree to do together is none of my (your) business.

Oct 04 12 11:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MerrillMedia
Posts: 8,417
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


I used to get annoyed. Now I just ignore them.
Oct 04 12 11:56 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,007
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I find myself far more annoyed with people that make threads about how other people choose to act, particularly when it doesn't impact the person making the thread at ALL.
Oct 04 12 11:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DBIphotography Toronto
Posts: 3,170
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Francisco Castro wrote:
Is is just me, or is anyone else annoyed whenever they see a casting call for a TF shoot for weddings/baptisms/Bar Mitzvahs/Quincinieras/etc.? I appreciate the fact that some people's budget is really tight, but I think that's abusing the system.

It's an insane amount of work to shoot events like weddings, and I think it's just tacky not to even offer a modicum amount.

I know some people will say, "It's their time. If they want to shoot a wedding TF then that's their business.". And I agree. It's their time and effort. Let them deal with it.

But what do you think? Asking a wedding be shot TF--- tacky, or not-tacky?

Tacky? I think it's even worse than a gentle "tacky". I think it's absolute horseshit, and if a shooter wants practice or images shot at a wedding s/he should give their time to a wedding photographer/wedding photography studio. Agreeing to shoot it Tee Eff just empowers those casting/asking into believing even stronger that free photography is their entitlement. I think ANY commercial project should never be cast for Tee Eff. I would respond "Tee Eff YOU!" if I were ever asked directly. I have, actually. And I told the person ifthey didn't leave my office I was gonna Tee Eff Pee all-over them tongue 

I get heated talking about it. I realize noob-shooters need the experience to learn, and/or would like to expand their wedding/etc portfolio. But, do it properly! Through a proper wedding-shooter, who can offer the client a lower rate having the unproven shooter at their unforgettable day! I also can appreciate photography not being in the budget, period, and wanting to ask. But, Tee Eff Pee? When I see that, I get insulted. If someone asked me directly if I would shoot their wedding for free? I'd actually consider it, if I could afford the time and could think of a way to turn it into a positive leading towards me making money!

Tee Eff.....sheesh! I refuse to use the term, because online/to noobs to the industry in-general, TF=free neutral

IMHO alone, as always;

Ðanny
http://www.dbiphotography.com (Blog On Site) 

Oct 04 12 11:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Makes absolutely no sense.  That should be against the TOU for the site.
Oct 05 12 12:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Camabs
Posts: 323
Utrecht, Utrecht, Netherlands


JessieLeigh wrote:
I find myself far more annoyed with people that make threads about how other people choose to act, particularly when it doesn't impact the person making the thread at ALL.

this

Oct 05 12 12:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
afplcc
Posts: 5,983
Fairfax, Virginia, US


This is a tough time to be in business as a photographer.  The barriers to entry have almost disappeared.  The public perception of skill involved is uninformed.  And we live in an economic climate where the idea of bargaining for the lowest possible rate is accepted almost across the board.

Ed
Oct 05 12 02:56 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
PhoenixFX
Posts: 78
Los Angeles, California, US


I agree that it's tacky. Just as it's tacky to ask a makeup artist to do a shoot for free or for $20. Considering the amount of time we put in, training we've gone through, and service we provide, not to mention the usage of product if you're a MUA, asking for something such as a wedding or commercial booking TF is absurd. Portfolio building TFP with a reputable photographer when you're just starting out is one thing, but beyond that it's a bit ridiculous in my opinion. This goes the same for unpaid test shoots. Don't even get me started on those >.
Oct 05 12 03:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


While I happily pay MUAs the $80 per look that most of them around here charge (even for a TFP model-shoot as the hair and make-up will make all the difference), I would balk at the idea of providing a $2,000 wedding-package free of charge to someone just for 'experience'...

The sort of jobs we lump into the categories of "commercial, wedding and portrait" are done so for a reason - we generally don't need the 'experience' as much as we need the pay-cheque...
Oct 05 12 04:57 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Julia Francesca
Posts: 2,357
Maumee, Ohio, US


Francisco Castro wrote:
Is is just me, or is anyone else annoyed whenever they see a casting call for a TF shoot for weddings/baptisms/Bar Mitzvahs/Quincinieras/etc.? I appreciate the fact that some people's budget is really tight, but I think that's abusing the system.

It's an insane amount of work to shoot events like weddings, and I think it's just tacky not to even offer a modicum amount.

I know some people will say, "It's their time. If they want to shoot a wedding TF then that's their business.". And I agree. It's their time and effort. Let them deal with it.

But what do you think? Asking a wedding be shot TF--- tacky, or not-tacky?

seriously? people do this? oh wow. might as well just say "this marriage isn't lasting so i really don't want to invest a lot in these memories."

Oct 05 12 05:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,442
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


Matt Belshaw wrote:
It would be funny if the photographer took along 300 model release forms for every person at the wedding though

Like,    big time.

Oct 05 12 11:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Poets Heart Images
Posts: 21
Cleveland, Tennessee, US


I would think that the reason we see so many of them is that there are enough photographers taking the TF's for events that they expect all photographers to work for free.

Maybe more of us need to ignore them or reply with our rates.
Oct 05 12 11:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TakenDown
Posts: 2
Aberdeen, Mississippi, US


I've learned to ignore them, as an earlier poster said. However, when I do read them, they've gotten increasingly cocky, arrogant, and borderline classless.

"Looking for TF Shoot. Photographer MUST bring MUA! Will only work with PROFESSIONALS! No G.W.C.s! I will only respond to people whose work I like!"

Lmaoooo the nerve of people I tell you........
Oct 05 12 02:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Miss AY
Posts: 8,164
Portland, Maine, US


The photographer I had at my wedding was essentially a TF photographer.

She needed the experience of shooting a wedding by herself from start to finish, and I could not afford 1k+ for a photographer. She got a day of experience and good references, I got photos I could not have afforded otherwise.

However, I will be dropping some cash on her this Christmas to buy prints/albums.

There is ZERO point in being upset or aggravated by someone asking for a cheap or TF wedding photographer. Clearly they would not have the means or the desire to pay a higher rate anyway, so you are not losing out on any business.

Live and let live.
Oct 05 12 07:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Miss AY
Posts: 8,164
Portland, Maine, US


Caustic Disco wrote:

seriously? people do this? oh wow. might as well just say "this marriage isn't lasting so i really don't want to invest a lot in these memories."

Really? Stop being judgmental. I take my marriage very seriously but love doesn't make thousands of extra dollars suddenly appear in a bank account.

Oct 05 12 07:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelleth
Posts: 2,511
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Some things should not be shot for free.

Though a photographer friend asked to shoot my wedding to build his wedding portfolio (he had only done fashion work). It was a win win and I am forever appreciative.
Oct 05 12 08:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,068
Alexandria, Virginia, US


What I think is exceptionally tacky is businesses wanting TF models for commercial projects. 

If there's money to be made, the model should be paid. 

The photographer as well - but so many will give it away for "exposure"....
Oct 05 12 08:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelleth
Posts: 2,511
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Fotografica Gregor wrote:
What I think is exceptionally tacky is businesses wanting TF models for commercial projects. 

If there's money to be made, the model should be paid. 

The photographer as well - but so many will give it away for "exposure"....

Agreed. Beyond tacky.

Oct 05 12 08:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Paige Morgan
Posts: 4,058
New York, New York, US


TF Wedding/Personal Party/Personal Event

TF Commercial jobs

It's tacky to expect random strangers to do what would be a huge favor even if it came from a close friend, and strikes me as a touch entitled.

After all, you are assuming you are so awesome that the entire world should jump at the chance to do you a solid, even if it has little to no benefit to the other person, and may even be a huge hassle/inconvenience.
Oct 06 12 01:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,030
Nashville, Tennessee, US


It's presumptuous and entitled, and beyond tacky. Whoever asks for it deserves what they get when they see the photos from inexperienced people.....and the photographer should learn a lesson if they do it, exactly how much work it really is and how much of a sucker they were to fall for it.
Oct 06 12 03:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13,030
Nashville, Tennessee, US


Fotografica Gregor wrote:
What I think is exceptionally tacky is businesses wanting TF models for commercial projects. 

If there's money to be made, the model should be paid. 

The photographer as well - but so many will give it away for "exposure"....

That too! Exposure huh? Expose yourself and let me punch you in the dick.....how's that for exposure for trying to take advantage of me? LOL

Oct 06 12 03:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MN camera
Posts: 1,860
Saint Paul, Minnesota, US


The part that always slays me is when the person looking for a photographer for something, either with an obvious commercial focus, or the event du jour, be it wedding or otherwise, is when they say "I'll let you use the photos!" as part of their pitch.

They can't.  The photographer who makes the photos owns them, here in the US, unless a specific agreement to the contrary is in place.
Oct 06 12 06:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Terry Scott Reed
Posts: 38
Reading, Pennsylvania, US


Do not waste your time worrying about this. There will always be someone who will work cheaper than you, believe me. And there will always be people who see no difference between your work and a TF shooter. That will always be the case, and it is not something you have any control over.
What you do have control over is you! Your work, your rates, and your clients who see value in your work. I suggest you focus on that: find the people who are willing to pay you what you want without being too high maintenance.
I used to feel like you do, until I realized that the TF shooters perform a valuable service for me: They keep the riff-raff from my threshold. I don't have to deal with them, and that reduces stress, and gives me more time to focus on being creative and finding paying customers. And their service is free! I don't pay them anything to do this for me! It's like those little fish that swim with the sharks and clean their bodies or the birdsa that eat the fleas off cattle. They are our flea eaters!
Whenevr I get an inquiry from someone who seems cheap or overly-high maintenance, I refer them to these guys. It keeps them busy and it keeps both of them out of my hair.

See, you kust needed a new perspective, that's all. Don't you feel better now?

Regards,
Terry
Regards,
Oct 06 12 07:02 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,381
London, England, United Kingdom


When photographers stop askin me to do my job for TF then maybe i'll start to care about whether they get asked to do theirs TF.

But more likely I'll just continue not to give a damn about jobs that aren't of interest to me and accept that other people have the freedom to ask for whatever they want and it's none of my damn business.
Oct 06 12 07:04 am  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Alabaster Crowley wrote:
If they can get someone whose quality of work they like for free, why would they pay?

+1

A photographer friend of mine shot out wedding at no cost, and yes, the photos turned out amazing. He didn't do it for money because he's a close friend.

Oct 06 12 07:11 am  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Caustic Disco wrote:

seriously? people do this? oh wow. might as well just say "this marriage isn't lasting so i really don't want to invest a lot in these memories."

facepalm

You speak for all couples who get married?

You are extremely judgmental. I hope for your sake you don't get married.

My husband and I are in debt from other things than our marriage. Going even more into debt to book a photographer was not an option. I have seen the photos taken by our photographer... They're absolutely amazing.

So yeah, piss off.

Oct 06 12 07:15 am  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Augustine York wrote:

Really? Stop being judgmental. I take my marriage very seriously but love doesn't make thousands of extra dollars suddenly appear in a bank account.

Seriously... But I guess you don't think your marriage's going to last because you were not willing to put yourselves even more into debt. How tacky!

roll tongue

Oct 06 12 07:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
All Yours Photography
Posts: 2,278
Toledo, Ohio, US


DBIphotography Toronto wrote:
if a shooter wants practice or images shot at a wedding s/he should give their time to a wedding photographer/wedding photography studio.

I realize noob-shooters need the experience to learn, and/or would like to expand their wedding/etc portfolio. But, do it properly! Through a proper wedding-shooter, who can offer the client a lower rate having the unproven shooter at their unforgettable day!


Ðanny
http://www.dbiphotography.com (Blog On Site) 

So the noob shooter should give his time to a commercial studio to be sent out to do the same thing for a price as he was going to do for "free"??

If he is going to give his time to a studio, he should be going out as a second shooter, not gambling the couple's memories while the studio still makes a buck

Oct 06 12 07:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,412
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


I think there is a place for a wide variety of talents and budgets.  Many people will try to get the best deal they can, and the market place will decide what they get for their dollar.   Not everyone demands professional quality service.

In early America, doing an unpaid internship was very common and is still not unheard of today.  Is that really all that different from someone with less photographic skills working for free to gain more experience?

I think if someone wants to pay for proven, professional talent, that's fine.  I think if someone with a lower budget, who cares less about professional quality wants to work with a hobbyist on a TF basis, that's fine too.

Most truly professional photographers I know don't worry about hobbyists and part-timers.  They focus on the market that demands their professionalism.  I think the pro who sees amateurs as their competition should reevaluate their business model.   They should use their talent, expensive gear and economy of scale to provide something the hobbyist can't.
Oct 06 12 08:04 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Evie Wolfe
Posts: 1,201
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom


People can ask for anything they like - I, for example, would very much like a solid gold violin. I can't play the violin, but then if I'm playing an instrument made of solid gold, who is going to argue?

So, for TF wedding photography to be a common occurrence, there must be photographers willing to do it?  In reality, if the couple were looking for a TF wedding, they were never going to pay high rates for a pro photographer - that is why they were out looking for a deal, so why get upset over it? They were never prospective clients anyway. It may be a possibility that the amount of weddings shot for free these days is deterring couples who may otherwise have paid, but any market is an evolving thing, and if you have something worth buying people will still pay for it, if they can.

My Nan always says, there are only three ways of dealing with any problem. You can live with it, you can change it, or you can walk away from it. Well, you can't change it, not really. You can't control the actions of anyone but yourself. You could walk away from it, if you wanted too, or, you could accept it as a part of life and shrug it off. Sure, we all get annoyed when someone offers to do our jobs for free! But, you don't have to let that annoyance translate itself into anger, because in the end the only person who is being affected by that anger is you.

smile
Oct 06 12 08:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,771
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Francisco Castro wrote:
I appreciate the fact that some people's budget is really tight, but I think that's abusing the system.

There an old joke that goes something like this:
Man: Would you sleep with me for ten million dollars?
Woman: Well, yes ...
Man: Would you sleep with me for seventy five dollars?
Woman: NO! What kind of woman do you think I am?
Man: We've already established that. Now we're just negotiating the price.

If a photographer lets it be known that they're willing to barter their services then gets indignant when someone gives them a proposal, it seems to me that if anyone is abusing the system it's the photographer.

Barter (a.k.a., "the system") was invented and refined long before photography was, and it was called horse trading long before anyone thought of the term TF.  The only rule is that two people can enter into any legal agreement that they both find agreeable, and it's no business of anyone else.  There's no rule that says the trade has to balance out in terms of monetary value. 

If you're willing to barter and someone makes a proposal that you don't find agreeable then either decline or counter.  If you're only willing to consider trades that you profit from, then saying you're willing to trade is dishonest.  The honest statement for you to make would be "My price is $XXX and I'm willing to accept payment in the form of modeling services." 

That doesn't mean I'm willing to shoot a wedding in return for a few hours of modeling.  But I don't think a model is insulting me if she asks, especially if she doesn't understand what really goes into shooting a wedding, which I suspect is often the case.

Oct 06 12 08:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,333
San Diego, California, US


Reminds me of the scene in "Being There" where Sellers walks up to those guys and asks them to make him a sandwich.
Oct 06 12 08:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 4,880
Detroit, Michigan, US


The chances of an established wedding photographer taking a TF wedding job is pretty slim. But someone who has not shot many wedding and is looking for the experience might be interested. Because really, if you are looking to hire a wedding photographer you want someone who can show you they have shot weddings successfully before because you are not only doing a one time thing (or at least you believe that at the time) and probably spending a quite a bit.

And actually there is a flip side to this, though people do not seem nearly so bothered by it. Women who pose TF in wedding dresses for portrait photographers. I know because I have done it ^_~ Now, think about it. If I pose in a wedding dress for trade, I might be able to use those photos for my port in general, but am I ever really going to be hired to pose in wedding dresses? In my case, and the case of plenty others, probably not. I am far too short to llama for a wedding dress company and I would not likely fit any of the sample sizes. And photographers who shooting wedding portraits are not likely to hire me either because they have a ton of brides and people would probably rather see other real brides than a llama (or they at least would not prefer to see a llama).

So I do not really care if people ask. And I doubt it is going to hurt any one. If these people are looking for TF they likely cannot afford to pay a photographer to shoot it any way.
Oct 06 12 09:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eridu
Posts: 623
Boston, Massachusetts, US


MerrillMedia wrote:
I used to get annoyed. Now I just ignore them.

Bingo!

Oct 06 12 10:07 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8,099
Tucson, Arizona, US


P I X I E wrote:

facepalm

You speak for all couples who get married?

You are extremely judgmental. I hope for your sake you don't get married.

My husband and I are in debt from other things than our marriage. Going even more into debt to book a photographer was not an option. I have seen the photos taken by our photographer... They're absolutely amazing.

So yeah, piss off.

Didn't you know, how much you care about your marriage is directly proportional to how much you spend on the wedding?

Oct 06 12 02:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Alabaster Crowley wrote:

Didn't you know, how much you care about your marriage is directly proportional to how much you spend on the wedding?

Shit, we spent a total of like $1,500 for our wedding. We're such cheap bastards who don't take things very seriously I suppose...

Oct 06 12 02:59 pm  Link  Quote 
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