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Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


OP:

Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

Edit:

I am not looking for new photos, if I wanted new photos I would be trading with folks I'm familiar working with.  This question is posed at new people who I have no prior work experience with.  And to reiterate, the question is posed for people approaching me, not the other way around.

The coin toss is I may benefit from the photos, who knows, that was the point in saying my port is small. However after looking at the port of the person in question, I don't know if it's worth my time negotiating prior to seeing the finished product.

From what I'm gathering the photos are the method of payment for trades, and currency is also a method of payment, but rarely you get both.  Thanks.

This isn't a rant, this isn't trying to eat my cake, this is a simple question from a model transitioning from trades to paid assignments.
Oct 04 12 10:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Matthew Belshaw
Posts: 33
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


you can ask and adjust your fee. Depends on the purpose of the shoot
Oct 04 12 10:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Workshop Studio
Posts: 29
Kettering, England, United Kingdom


It will depend on the reason for the shoot and to a large extent on the photographer. Some of us are really nice people. If I can help one of my ladies I will let her have a selection of the images if she askes nicely and if the images are suitable for her portfolio. I suppose the fact that I am not a pro does make a difference, I am not making a living from my studio. Ask nicely and give a good credit to the studio and photographer, they can only say no.

The other alternative would be on your next visit to the UK pay ne a visit!!
Oct 04 12 10:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,461
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

Paid = no photos (however some photographers may give a few but don't expect it)

TF = photos

Oct 04 12 10:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Unless the model is a complete arse, I'll usually 'gift' a couple of the good images from a pay-shoot, even though I make it very clear that they shouldn't expect any at all - that way I come across as a nice guy... big_smile
Oct 04 12 10:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,416
Los Angeles, California, US


AND . . .  there are situations where you can work for a lower rate and still get copies of the photos . . . . never hurts to ask
Oct 04 12 10:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,487
Portland, Oregon, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

It depends entirely on the photographer and the circumstances.

Many photographers believe that if they pay the model then the model gets paid and nothing else.

Many other photographers do share photos with models, even if they pay them, as it is good marketing for their images and gets their work in front of a larger audience.

Ultimately, ANY shoot you do, whether trade or paid is up to whatever you and the photographer agree upon before the shoot. 

What anyone else does really does not matter, because you're working with the person you're working with and not anyone else.

Bottom line, communicate clearly and do not make assumptions. 

Discuss, clarify, and specify to reach a pre-shoot agreement on the terms/conditions of the shoot.

Oct 04 12 10:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kevin Alex Photography
Posts: 90
Perth Amboy, New Jersey, US


You can simply ask the photographer during the time of being selected.

If you're hired for a paid shoot, the photographer doesn't have to give you anything but your agreed payment.

Analogy: If you were hired to cut someone's lawn, would you expect the right to bbq on it?

But again, it's as simple as asking. Most photographers will gladly give you print/prints. But keep in mind, your option of which images you get from said shoot will be up to the photographer to release to you. As well as the photographers control of where you may use them.

Just ask.


OH, and one more thing. If a photographer is nice enough to give you prints from the shoot, do NOT think practicing your photoshop skills on them is ok. We hate that. LOL
Oct 04 12 10:56 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


The problem with negotiating, is possibly not liking the images.  I've done a couple TF shoots where I didn't like anything.  Sounds like it's standard to not receive photos for paid shoots that's all I'm asking.

Thanks all
Oct 04 12 11:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ColourFool
Posts: 1,647
Breda, Noord-Brabant, Netherlands


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
AND . . .  there are situations where you can work for a lower rate and still get copies of the photos . . . . never hurts to ask

+ wisdom

The best deals are done between people who feel the other party deserves a good deal as well.

Oct 04 12 11:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wolfy4u
Posts: 1,075
Grand Junction, Colorado, US


I often propose  half TF?? and half pay when I'm working with top level professional models. They check out my portfolio and see that I tend to produce unique photo concepts that they'd find useful. Often, they'll being up a concept for us to include before we start shooting and I make it a point to include their requests.
I think that getting some pay and some photos will be very useful to you while you're still building your portfolio. Just be sure that your needs are addressed at the session, The money and photos are both pay that you're entitled to, if you've lowered your fee to gain the photos.
Oct 04 12 11:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,487
Portland, Oregon, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
The problem with negotiating, is possibly not liking the images.  I've done a couple TF shoots where I didn't like anything.  Sounds like it's standard to not receive photos for paid shoots that's all I'm asking.

Thanks all

Alivia,

you may get a more accurate answer from paid models who have worked with many photographers rather than concluding what is normal from a very narrow sample of photographers.

Oct 04 12 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


DougBPhoto wrote:

Alivia,

you may get a more accurate answer from paid models who have worked with many photographers rather than concluding what is normal from a very narrow sample of photographers.

touche

Oct 04 12 11:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Erik Ballew
Posts: 710
Westminster, Colorado, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

You need to have a conversation with your photographers!! We are all human and as far as I can tell (Models and Photogs) can not read minds!  I don't want to be harsh, but the art of Conversation must not die!

Oct 04 12 11:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,343
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


Images and pay are both forms fo compensation. They can be exclusive of each other, but they don't need be.  Photographers will vary.  Sometimes, their intended use may mean they can't give you photos.  You just need to ask or negotiate as appropriate.   I personally prefer to offer compensation that includes pay and images since I have the images anyways.
Oct 04 12 11:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MerrillMedia
Posts: 8,338
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


I think that availability of photos on a paid shoot depends on the intended market, the individual photographer and any number of other factors. That said, you probably shouldn't expect photos, if you are being paid.
Oct 04 12 11:59 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,917
New York, New York, US


My guess would be that if the model is fun, appreciative, helpful and professional most photographers would be able to come up with a picture or two, often without being asked.

But if she is demanding, lazy and diva-ish, it ain't gonna happen.
Oct 04 12 06:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 12,988
Nashville, Tennessee, US


If their work can better your portfolio, TF with them. If not, they pay you or you don't shoot. If you get photos from a paid shoot, win win, but it's at the discretion of the photographer.
Oct 04 12 07:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

You can offer money, and your efforts / release.  The photographer can offer money and their efforts / license / rights.  Any combination you agree to is fine, as long as you both agree.

Often, probably usually, models who start getting paid work continue to do trades, they just get more and more selective.

Oct 04 12 07:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 7,496
Imperial, California, US


There's a wide range of paid shoots. Photographers pay models sometimes, because they have a client they know will pay for certain shots. Photographers sometimes pay models when they have an idea for a shoot and need a specific look they need. I pay models (sometimes) because I live so damn far from anywhere, it's the only way to get someone to shoot. Most people can't afford to pay someone else unless they are getting paid. There is value in having better pics in your port for both photographers and models, so, TF exists so we all can get better pics for our ports. It doesn't have to always be about money, even though it does make the world go around.
Oct 04 12 07:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,269
Muncie, Indiana, US


Nothing is "standard".
Oct 04 12 07:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
afplcc
Posts: 5,971
Fairfax, Virginia, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

Officially, no.  But if you ask nicely and you're fun/easy to work with OR the photographer is a really nice guy, then you significantly increase your chance of getting a few edits.

Keep in mind, not all shoots a model gets paid for but at least some of them (which is why the photographer has money to pay the model) will involve commissioned work for a client.  The client gets the photos.  And the client (or ad agency or creative director) may have demanded total control over all the photos.  They don't want to start an ad campaign for a particular look and discover someone else is leaking shots from the series that defeats their branding.  So sometimes you can ask nicely and not get them even if the photographer would normally share.

Ed

Oct 04 12 08:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 26,984
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


If there's any doubt in your mind that the photos will be useable in your portfolio, don't trade or negotiate your rates for them.

If you like their work but don't necessarily NEED it, or can't justify doing the shoot without any compensation (they're really far away, you have to put a lot of money into making the shoot happen, you have to skip work/school for the shoot, etc) then negotiate maybe. If you really want their images, trade
Oct 04 12 10:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,608
Phoenix, Arizona, US


This is just me personally..

When I pay, it's usually because I need free reign to sell the photos and having exclusivity over them usually makes that possible.

That said, I'm usually negotiable.. but not on the photos I plan to sell. For example.. I might trade with a model "I shoot this set for me to sell, that set for you" -- But she most likely won't be paid.

Honestly.. one of the biggest advantages to paying a model is not having to provide any photos.

For me anyways..
Oct 04 12 11:09 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,433
San Francisco, California, US


Ask the photographer.  The worst he can say is "no," but you might just be surprised by some of them saying "yes."
Oct 04 12 11:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SHF
Posts: 268
New York, New York, US


More condensed version:

I used to art model for 5 yrs.. I got to say for about 95% of my paid shoots I got images. I never asked for them, I never neg. my rates down for them ...  I was just told "oh and  by the way, what ever images I finish/pick Ill send to you to see/use for ure portfolio.. to which I said "many thanks "
Oct 04 12 11:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
E H
Posts: 512
Calgary, Alberta, Canada


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

Depends on the work/ photographer / contract involved determines what is in the model release, some is just pay,,some pay and images some just images.(sometimes all images must to the client, no one but them, can use the work...)
  Take the paid work and use it to better your port,,,go have a glamour shot done or any others you need or want... Unless you know a really good photographer/hair/make-up, etc. that wants to do a TF on all the shots you want or need for your port.
It is important to know when to TF, when to get paid and when to pay...

Oct 04 12 11:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 862
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

For "Paid assignments only" models, I have done a part trade thing a bunch of times. So, just negotiate.

Oct 05 12 02:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Digitoxin
Posts: 13,332
Houston, Texas, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

Depends.

If the client needs "First rights" or "exclusive rights" I don't trade photos.  You can pull the Tearsheets or web clip once published.

But, if it's, say, a stock assignment, and I offer you, say $100 cash but no images, there is nothing wrong with you coming back to me and asking for $50 and one image of your choosing.

Negotiate what you want.  There are few hard-and-fast rules.

Oct 05 12 03:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Atelier H
Posts: 146
Boston, Massachusetts, US


I give retouched photos anyways as a goodwill gesture even when hiring models, both to the model & H/MUA.
Oct 05 12 03:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mike Collins
Posts: 1,725
Orlando, Florida, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
AND . . .  there are situations where you can work for a lower rate and still get copies of the photos . . . . never hurts to ask

This makes the most sense.

If we do a TF, your part of the trade is the image(s) for you to use.  If I pay you, the MONEY you get is the trade.  If you want the images also, it would not be fair to me to just give you one since the deal was for money.  But like Ken basically says, give me some of the money back and I will give you an image or two.  Or give me all the money back and you can have a wider choice.

There is also you pay me and you get your choice of a certain amount of images.  Believe it or not, some models do pay certain photographers to build a better book.  Just be sure they are worth it. 

In other words.  Don't expect to be able to have your cake and eat it too.

Oct 05 12 04:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jhono Bashian
Posts: 2,427
Cleveland, Ohio, US


Isis22 wrote:
Nothing is "standard".

I will only pay for nudes from MM models.

Oct 05 12 04:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Woven Thought
Posts: 329
Petersburg, Virginia, US


You know, YOU could pay a photographer.
Oct 05 12 04:58 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Why would I pay a photographer? Not what the OP is asking. Furthermore thanks to those who gave sound advice.
Oct 05 12 08:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 20,824
Portland, Oregon, US


Don't ever use a photographer's images without permission.

I pay models.  I also tell models that they can right-click on any of the images that I post on my website for use in their online portfolios only -- I ask for proper accreditation.

Some (most?) photographers don't do this, but it doesn't cost me anything, and my images in a model's portfolio doesn't compete with me, so why not?  Models seem to appreciate it.

The difference is that if I was doing a TF* session, I'd be partially concerned in creating images that would please the model.  If I am paying the model, I am only concerned with creating images that please me, and if the model is also pleased, that's just a happy coincidence.
Oct 05 12 09:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tore
Posts: 13,706
Stamford, Connecticut, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Why would I pay a photographer? Not what the OP is asking. Furthermore thanks to those who gave sound advice.

I think she may have been implying that because your OP mentioned about your port being small. If your port is too small, then TF and you paying a photographer would be good options.
smile


But I digress.....

Oct 05 12 09:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,065
Alexandria, Virginia, US


If a model or production team member is charging me for their services, I do not offer image choices as I would when shooting on a tradework basis. However, as a courtesy and for networking purposes, I offer images that I am retouching for my own present or future use, and of course any tears.
Oct 05 12 09:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,139
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


Alivia Autumn wrote:
The problem with negotiating, is possibly not liking the images.  I've done a couple TF shoots where I didn't like anything.  Sounds like it's standard to not receive photos for paid shoots that's all I'm asking.

Thanks all

Works both ways.

I have done a number of shoots where I did not like anything.

Oct 05 12 11:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,139
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Why would I pay a photographer?

And nobody is touching that????

Oct 05 12 11:20 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Herman Surkis wrote:

And nobody is touching that????

Why would they, paying someone is irrelevant to the OP.

Oct 05 12 11:20 am  Link  Quote 
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