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Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,494
Atlanta, Georgia, US


DougBPhoto wrote:

Alivia,

you may get a more accurate answer from paid models who have worked with many photographers rather than concluding what is normal from a very narrow sample of photographers.

I don't think a very narrow sample of models is better.

The majority of actual working models are never hired by professional photographers.  Clients hire both or peers and friends trade shoot to maintain their books and work on creative ideas.  If a model needs images they are best served to hire a professional and get exactly what they want.  Otherwise there will always have an element of chance about the collaboration, sometimes it may be exactly what both are looking for and sometimes a compromise.

Oct 05 12 11:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Model Zone
Posts: 72
Chicago, Illinois, US


That's a good question, I was just thinking about it! Me being the nice guy that I am, will give away the images so that they will also appear as advertisement on the Models profile...More exposure..he he get it!
Oct 05 12 12:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelleth
Posts: 2,509
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


With paid shoots, sometimes you'll get photos from the photographer as well but that's completely at their discretion. Don't expect them. You are not owed anything but the money agreed upon.
Oct 05 12 08:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
CamiAnn
Posts: 794
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I have always gotten photos along with the pay if I wanted them...maybe I have just worked with really generous photographers, but I never even had to ask...at the very least, a tear sheet for what the shoot is for would be something to ask for, if its being published.  Just from my own experience.
Oct 05 12 08:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jim Cookfair
Posts: 245
Buffalo, New York, US


If I pay for a shoot and the model is outstanding and cool, she will have the offer to get some images on top of the cash.  bonus.  I also paid a tf model just because she went above and beyond...
Oct 05 12 09:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,263
Salem, Oregon, US


on a TF shoot i let the model choose from a proofing CD/gallery. when i pay the model i choose. also when i pay the model it's what i want to shoot (assuming i have a preference). but each photographer does it differently so the answer is "it depends". i've seen posts from models who get paid who said that most of their portfolio was from those paid shoots.

i also have paid models who do TF with me partly because we can shoot some of what they want and they can get images.
Oct 05 12 09:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FotoMark
Posts: 2,978
Oxnard, California, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
OP:

Those of you that hire models, I have a question.

All of my work has been TF.

I'm at the point where I am being offered paid work, however my port is still quite small.

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

Edit:

I am not looking for new photos, if I wanted new photos I would be trading with folks I'm familiar working with.  This question is posed at new people who I have no prior work experience with.  And to reiterate, the question is posed for people approaching me, not the other way around.

The coin toss is I may benefit from the photos, who knows, that was the point in saying my port is small. However after looking at the port of the person in question, I don't know if it's worth my time negotiating prior to seeing the finished product.

From what I'm gathering the photos are the method of payment for trades, and currency is also a method of payment, but rarely you get both.  Thanks.

This isn't a rant, this isn't trying to eat my cake, this is a simple question from a model transitioning from trades to paid assignments.

Be upfront and ask if you can buy the photos that you like?

Oct 05 12 09:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cal
Posts: 670
Santa Ana, California, US


I use the pics from a paid shoot to tip the llama.
If she did a lousy job, no pics.
If she did a great job I give her several pics.

It all depends on the llama.
Oct 05 12 09:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
E H
Posts: 577
Calgary, Alberta, Canada


This isn't a rant, this isn't trying to eat my cake, this is a simple question from a model transitioning from trades to paid assignments.


This is the reason why you may want to pay for better portfolio shots and continuing to do so,,, getting better and better shots...Better the shots the more money and jobs you will get... joan Smalls/ Karlie Kloss or Abbey Lee Kershaw did not get to where they are on : a TF or fill in with what I get paid in images or an unprinted portfolio.
Just trying to help you get more and better jobs.
All the best
Oct 05 12 11:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


E H wrote:
This isn't a rant, this isn't trying to eat my cake, this is a simple question from a model transitioning from trades to paid assignments.


This is the reason why you may want to pay for better portfolio shots and continuing to do so,,, getting better and better shots...Better the shots the more money and jobs you will get... joan Smalls/ Karlie Kloss or Abbey Lee Kershaw did not get to where they are on : a TF or fill in with what I get paid in images or an unprinted portfolio.
Just trying to help you get more and better jobs.
All the best

I get it and that makes absolute sense, but personally I'm not trying to get more paid shoots or put myself out there career wise. I do it cause it's fun, yet I work full time and am a mother so mytime is limited. The question is for people approaching me... Which is happening rather frequently.

Oct 05 12 11:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


E H wrote:
This isn't a rant, this isn't trying to eat my cake, this is a simple question from a model transitioning from trades to paid assignments.


This is the reason why you may want to pay for better portfolio shots and continuing to do so,,, getting better and better shots...Better the shots the more money and jobs you will get... joan Smalls/ Karlie Kloss or Abbey Lee Kershaw did not get to where they are on : a TF or fill in with what I get paid in images or an unprinted portfolio.
Just trying to help you get more and better jobs.
All the best

I also appreciate the reply. Thank you.

Oct 05 12 11:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
E H
Posts: 577
Calgary, Alberta, Canada


Alivia Autumn wrote:

I also appreciate the reply. Thank you.

No problem, trying to help
Mom,kids, full-time job or just doing it for fun,,, all the same thing,,, better portfolio = more you'll do and make...

Oct 05 12 11:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,788
Portland, Oregon, US


AJScalzitti wrote:
I don't think a very narrow sample of models is better.

The majority of actual working models are never hired by professional photographers.  Clients hire both or peers and friends trade shoot to maintain their books and work on creative ideas.  If a model needs images they are best served to hire a professional and get exactly what they want.  Otherwise there will always have an element of chance about the collaboration, sometimes it may be exactly what both are looking for and sometimes a compromise.

The majority of actual working models, believe it or not, are probably smart enough to understand what they do and do not receive from photographers, and are probably capable of articulating it to another model.   I realize this may be unthinkable, but I've been told on good authority that many models DO, in fact, have brains, and know how to use them.

You might also want to expand a bit on exactly who you define as "actual working models", because it sounds kinda like you're discounting a great many models who are working and getting paid... even if, gasp, there isn't a business/client paying.

In other words, if there isn't a business/client paying both the model and photographer, those people are not "actual" working models or actual "professional photographers".

I guess everyone else on both sides of the camera is just playing pretend.

Fantastic job of pontification, but I don't think you really helped shed nearly as much light on the subject for the OP as you think you did.

Oct 05 12 11:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MN camera
Posts: 1,860
Saint Paul, Minnesota, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
The problem with negotiating, is possibly not liking the images.  I've done a couple TF shoots where I didn't like anything.  Sounds like it's standard to not receive photos for paid shoots that's all I'm asking.

Thanks all

I think the answer here is obvious.  If you want to call the tune, maybe hiring a photographer to do your idea explicitly is what you might consider.  Asking me to pay you to do only your idea - not going to happen.

Oct 06 12 06:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Thanks all, gave him my rates, asked about the photos, and he said my rates were reasonable that providing photos wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for the advice.  I guess communication is key.
Oct 06 12 10:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
imcFOTO
Posts: 579
Bothell, Washington, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
OP:

My question is when paying for work from a model, I'd assume that no photos would be traded.  Or does this depend on situation?

I don't think there is a rule (although some like to insist there is). Sure, there's a lot more incentive for a photographer to hand over photos for a TF shoot - that's their side of the commitment (although even there, you'll find a wide variety of what is offered).

I have only done a few paid shoots so I speak from limited experience, but I've always offered them (and yes, my hope is to keep the cost down). I've found the more experienced models tend to include a few shots (sometimes their choice perhaps) as part of the deal.

Other than as a negotiating ploy I think it's short-sighted of the photographer not to give some edited shots. After all,  if the model was worth hiring, isn't it worth something to have some of your work in her portfolio? I also figure, once you've done the work of editing shots, it really costs you nothing to send a few to the model (whether it was agreed or not).

Isn't goodwill still worth something - never mind the free advertising if the model uses them in their portfolio (and I do always ask that I be credited if she does).

Again it all comes down to communication and coming to an amicable agreement preferably before all the work has been done.

Oct 06 12 11:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
imcFOTO
Posts: 579
Bothell, Washington, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
I guess communication is key.

Absolutely! :-)

Oct 06 12 11:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


imcFOTO wrote:

I don't think there is a rule (although some like to insist there is). Sur, there's a lot more incentive for a photographer to hand over photos for a TF shoot - that's their side of the commitment (although even there, you'll find a wide variety it what is offered).

I have only done a few paid shoots so I speak from limited experience, but I've always offered them (and yes, my hope is to keep the cost down). I've found the more experienced models tend to include a few shots (sometimes their choice perhaps) as part of the deal.

Other than as a negotiating ploy I think it's short-sighted of the photographer not to give some edited shots. After all,  if the model was worth hiring, isn't it worth something to have some of your work in her portfolio? I also figure, once you've done the work of editing shots, it really costs you nothing to send a few to the model (whether it was agreed or not).

Isn't goodwill still worth something - never mind the free advertising if the model uses them in their portfolio (and I do always ask that I be credited if she does).

Again it all comes down to communication and coming to an amicable agreement preferably before all the work has been done.

Wish all photographers had your mindset, especially the ones here.  Thankfully I've never had a problem with photographers acting uppity in my city, but damn these threads can be brutal!

Oct 07 12 12:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BlueMoonPics
Posts: 4,107
New York, New York, US


I've done group shoots where I paid and I still gave the models images of their choice.  I figure it helps me out in getting my name around, plus some of the models appreciate it.

I've done stock shoots where I offer the models images too even though the images are very commercial.  I figure it makes them happy and possible repeat models for my work.

I've gotten reduction in rates because I offer images back to the model if they like my work.

I don't have a hard rule that if I pay I don't give out images.  In my point of view it's all negotiable.
Oct 07 12 07:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Aaron - photographer
Posts: 35
London, England, United Kingdom


I have no problem letting a model i've hired pick out a few images for her portfolio or personal use.  But the key word here is "a few".  When i do a TF, i contract for 5 images.  I'll almost always provide 7 to 10, but 5 is the stipulated trade.  If I hire a model, i'd be happy to offer up 3 or 4 or even 5 images.  I guess it really all depends on the photographer.
Oct 07 12 07:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,609
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I'm all about keeping everyone happy. If I keep everyone happy then I get booked more, the models work better, the resulting images look better, and everyone gets paid work again.

When I book the models I tell them that I always will do my best to give them copies of the used photos from the shoot that the client has chosen, there are never any guarantees. If the model works out great I'm more than happy to ask the client if I can release a few to the models.

Usually though, when a client comes to me and asks me to hire a model or two for their shoot, I always ask that in addition to paying them if I can give them a few photos from the shoot. It's been very rare when I've ever had a client say no to this and I always promise that the images will not be distributed until the photos from the shoot go public from the client. So when their ad gets published or the images wind up on their website catalog, etc., that's when I give the photos to the models, and never sooner.

The only recent exception to this was that I had hired two models for a client and both did a great job from my perspective. After the the shoot I sent over the proofs to the client and got an email back telling me I could give images to one model and not the other. I later found out that the client discovered during the shoot one of the models was tweeting on every break things like, "I'm on a shoot and have to wear these tank tops with this stupid logo on it" and "I'm so glad I'm done here soon...client is a dweeb". The other model actually sent myself and the client a nice thank-you email after the shoot. Guess which one got photos and which one didn't?
Oct 07 12 08:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art Silva
Posts: 9,056
Santa Barbara, California, US


Posted rates are basically starting points for negotiations unless it's stated as a solid rate, but then again there are exception to the rules but that's up to the model in this case.

I like to think that I get good rate quotes from great established models I've worked with and in return I like to throw a couple images their way whether they use them in their port or website or not, if they do then it's a plus for both of us especially if that model gets lots of traffic to her work it benefits me as well.
Oct 07 12 11:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,451
Paris, Île-de-France, France


If I was to pay a model for pictures outside of the client paying, it would be for a specific reason. IF I was asking and paying then there would be every reason why I want to shoot with that person, not because I need to but want to.

If the person being paid thought the pictures were good and asked to use the pix for self promo then the more cross promotion the better.

I wouldn't feel the responsibility though to have me edit or do the pictures at all for them.
Oct 07 12 11:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
devpics
Posts: 834
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


I normally give the model a set of shots two weeks or so after the shoot and a disc when fully edited, though this can vary depending on how keen the model is to have copies. Obviously photgraphers in other circumstances will act differently.
Oct 08 12 12:06 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Alivia Autumn wrote:
The problem with negotiating, is possibly not liking the images.  I've done a couple TF shoots where I didn't like anything.  Sounds like it's standard to not receive photos for paid shoots that's all I'm asking.

Thanks all

when you start doing paid shoots, expect that there are going to be pictures of you on the internet that you might hate and that you would never pick yourself.

Oct 08 12 02:05 am  Link  Quote 
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