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Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


I always see posts on why models are trying to justify getting paid, and why photographers are trying to justify getting paid.  I know the economy sucks, but if you really enjoy the industry why get so greedy and catty about it.

Food for thought.  You have a model, who has decent images and is quite happy with their portforlio but her posing or facial expression is off, why do photographers immediately start yelling in the feedback section, pay someone!  Pay someone.  Especially if the feedback is based off what the model needs improvement on.  A "better" photographer isn't going to produce better photo's if the model needs work.

The same thing goes the other way, if a photographer has crappy photos, lighting is bad, bokeh is off, then how the hell is paying a pro model going to enhance his port when he makes her look like shit.

No one cares about your rates.  Trading is awesome.
Oct 05 12 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BodyartBabes
Posts: 2,004
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Human nature?

Scott
Oct 05 12 11:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eye of the World
Posts: 754
Corvallis, Oregon, US


Actually, experienced pro models will usually help even a crappy photographer produce better images than they have currently. Not just by knowing how to pose, but by understanding light and positioning themselves properly, making suggestions both technically and creatively (If you do X it might look awesome) and so on. I periodically show the model some of the images on the camera LCD and welcome their input.
Oct 05 12 11:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,540
Belmont, California, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
...You have a model, who has decent images and is quite happy with their portforlio but her posing or facial expression is off, why do photographers immediately start yelling in the feedback section, pay someone!  Pay someone.  Especially if the feedback is based off what the model needs improvement on.  A "better" photographer isn't going to produce better photo's if the model needs work.

When I give this adivce, I rarely yell and I'm assuming the model has really done her homework, gotten her practice time in, honed her craft to the nth degree and there is nothing she needs to improve upon herself. At that point if she's not satisfied after trying a handful of good TF photographers, it might behoove her to pay an excellent photographer. It might save time on her quest.

Alivia Autumn wrote:
The same thing goes the other way, if a photographer has crappy photos, lighting is bad, bokeh is off, then how the hell is paying a pro model going to enhance his port when he makes her look like shit.

When I give this advice I'm assuming the photographer has developed his/her craft and skill to the utmost degree possible--photos aren't crappy, bokeh is beautiful and s/he knows enough about lighting to make the model look as good as possible. If one is getting great exposures, great locations, great model rapport and still can't improve their book through TF, shell out some bucks for a pro. Well worth it I can say from experience. My avatar transformed my entire approach to photography!

Alivia Autumn wrote:
No one cares about your rates.  Trading is awesome.

Trading is awesome! As for caring about rates, I disagree with your opinion. I think, models' or photographers', many people do care, especially when they begin to recognize true quality enough to want to attain it for their ports.

Oct 05 12 11:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,537
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Trades and test are great and the normal way most photographers and models end up working together.

The reality of the industry is so different then MM and Interent modeling it's not even funny.  I think that recent article everyone read in the huffington post about the dark side of modeling hints at it.  Models are treated poorly overall and with a few rare expeditions are veary near the bottom of the food chain.  The clients, publishers, designers, stylist, and photographers have the control; but they also take most of the financial risks.

Many professional commercial photogrphers have working relationships with modeling agencies and can shoot with signed models whenever they wish without fees and perhaps getting a litle too offended when asked to pay.  The reactions are sometimes childish on both sides
Oct 05 12 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Don Garrett
Posts: 4,304
Escondido, California, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
I always see posts on why models are trying to justify getting paid, and why photographers are trying to justify getting paid.  I know the economy sucks, but if you really enjoy the industry why get so greedy and catty about it.

Food for thought.  You have a model, who has decent images and is quite happy with their portforlio but her posing or facial expression is off, why do photographers immediately start yelling in the feedback section, pay someone!  Pay someone.  Especially if the feedback is based off what the model needs improvement on.  A "better" photographer isn't going to produce better photo's if the model needs work.

The same thing goes the other way, if a photographer has crappy photos, lighting is bad, bokeh is off, then how the hell is paying a pro model going to enhance his port when he makes her look like shit.

No one cares about your rates.  Trading is awesome.

I think most of the people who signed up for Model Mayhem came here expecting the site to make them rich. Almost all, (if not 100%), were disappointed. The "war" of models, against photographers here became one of the results. This childish behavior is B.S., and unbecoming of the adults on this site.
-Don

Oct 05 12 11:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Trade works, but it is a very slow way to improve your port. Trade is usually mutually beneficial which means that the skill levels of the photographer and model aren't far off from each other. it is difficult to improve drastically when the person you work with doesn't offer anything extra. By hiring a pro you can improve quicker and learn from their experience. This is especially important for models as a model career is much shorter than a photographers.
Oct 05 12 11:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The F-Stop
Posts: 1,457
New York, New York, US


How about if we all work together, we can get some awsome ports costing us nothing n then go out n make a living off em?

What do you need... can I help?
Oct 05 12 11:50 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Don Garrett wrote:

I think most of the people who signed up for Model Mayhem came here expecting the site to make them rich. Almost all, (if not 100%), were disappointed. The "war" of models, against photographers were one result. This childish behavior is B.S., and unbecoming of the adults on this site.
-Don

Well said.

Oct 05 12 11:58 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


The F-Stop wrote:
How about if we all work together, we can get some awsome ports costing us nothing n then go out n make a living off em?

What do you need... can I help?

I don't NEED anything.

Why do people put statements into such absolutes...  Sorry your only source of income is this site.  No need to be facetious.

Oct 05 12 11:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Laurence Moan
Posts: 7,699
Huntington Beach, California, US


I REALLY REALLY REALLY WANT GLAMOUR HEADSHOTS!!! Someone please help me make this happen
Oct 05 12 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Laurence Moan wrote:
I REALLY REALLY REALLY WANT GLAMOUR HEADSHOTS!!! Someone please help me make this happen

Want, not need...

Oct 05 12 12:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


And the war continues.............. keep coming smile
Oct 05 12 12:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Laurence Moan
Posts: 7,699
Huntington Beach, California, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:

Want, not need...

Do you WANT my rates?

cool

Oct 05 12 12:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Nope.  Thanks though.
Oct 05 12 12:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


If I was in CA I actually have people I've networked with that would shoot me for free.  Appreciate you considering me as a paying client though.  Hope you find more work so you don't have to keep trolling the forums wink
Oct 05 12 12:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MZ PhotoFilm
Posts: 202
Jacksonville, Florida, US


from what i read via MM forum from one of their pros, it should go like this

model finds photog = model pays photos
photog finds model = photog pays model
photo model find each other due to same interest = trade off

*if your coming to me saying you love my portfolio and want to shoot with me then why not pay me for my skills...
Oct 05 12 12:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Laurence Moan
Posts: 7,699
Huntington Beach, California, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
If I was in CA I actually have people I've networked with that would shoot me for free.  Appreciate you considering me as a paying client though.  Hope you find more work so you don't have to keep trolling the forums wink

Thank you!
Sorry about your New Mexico situation....

cool

Oct 05 12 12:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Alivia Autumn wrote:

Want, not need...

If I want something bad enough I will often pay for it. When it comes to building a professional business I expect to invest money into it.

Oct 05 12 12:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rich Burroughs
Posts: 3,259
Portland, Oregon, US


It depends on the photographer.

I was an actor when I was younger and one of the main things you focus on when you study acting is relaxation. Every acting 101 class teaches you some relaxation exercises you can use to loosen up and get more in the moment.

It's the same with models. When someone looks stiff/awkward, it's sometimes because they're just nervous. A really good photographer may be good at making models feel at ease. And trust is part of that too. If a model thinks the photographer is likely to give them good results, it may relax them more.

On the other hand, some very good photographers are dicks with huge egos.

When someone doesn't know the basics of their craft, I agree, it may be money out the window to pay someone. But if they're someone who has promise then it may help them. When I started shooting with models I'd already been photographing other subjects for years, so I knew how to use a camera. On my second shoot I paid a pretty fantastic model from here on MM and the results were a million times better than my first shoot, which was a trade with a noob model.

I've learned a lot from the experienced models that I've paid, and I think that's partly what you're paying for. If I'd spent the last three years shooting newbie models for trade, not only would my book not be nearly as good but I wouldn't be as good of a photographer.

As a model it would be nice to think you're only judged by your work and not the photographer's, but that's not the case.
Oct 05 12 12:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MesmerEyes Photography
Posts: 2,921
Tyler, Texas, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Want, not need...

I want to shoot with the "Wilde Team" for TF can anyone make that happen. big_smile

Oct 05 12 12:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rich Burroughs
Posts: 3,259
Portland, Oregon, US


MZ PhotoFilm wrote:
from what i read via MM forum from one of their pros, it should go like this

model finds photog = model pays photos
photog finds model = photog pays model
photo model find each other due to same interest = trade off

*if your coming to me saying you love my portfolio and want to shoot with me then why not pay me for my skills...

How do people find each other? Someone's going to send the first message.

I don't usually go by the who contacts who thing. To me it's more about who needs who.

The caveat though, is that if you contact me and rave about how much you love my images and then drop your rates on me 5 messages later, I'm likely to be upset.

Oct 05 12 12:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MesmerEyes Photography
Posts: 2,921
Tyler, Texas, US


Rich Burroughs wrote:
It depends on the photographer.

I was an actor when I was younger and one of the main things you focus on when you study acting is relaxation. Every acting 101 class teaches you some relaxation exercises you can use to loosen up and get more in the moment.

It's the same with models. When someone looks stiff/awkward, it's sometimes because they're just nervous. A really good photographer may be good at making models feel at ease. And trust is part of that too. If a model thinks the photographer is likely to give them good results, it may relax them more.

On the other hand, some very good photographers are dicks with huge egos.

When someone doesn't know the basics of their craft, I agree, it may be money out the window to pay someone. But if they're someone who has promise then it may help them. When I started shooting with models I'd already been photographing other subjects for years, so I knew how to use a camera. On my second shoot I paid a pretty fantastic model from here on MM and the results were a million times better than my first shoot, which was a trade with a noob model.

I've learned a lot from the experienced models that I've paid, and I think that's partly what you're paying for. If I'd spent the last three years shooting newbie models for trade, not only would my book not be nearly as good but I wouldn't be as good of a photographer.

As a model it would be nice to think you're only judged by your work and not the photographer's, but that's not the case.

This! Well said.

Oct 05 12 12:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote:

If I want something bad enough I will often pay for it. When it comes to building a professional business I expect to invest money into it.

Clearly I don't want it enough to pay.  And if I did see someone I wanted to pay, I'd reach out to them.

Really though, stop with the profile mining.

What's written on my profile is irrelevant to the op.

Oct 05 12 12:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


I don't have a problem with paying for a product I want.  I'm the biggest consumer out there.  I'll throw out a coffee maker if someone left the filter in to get moldy.

The point is, stop berating models for being content with trade.  Stop telling models in forums to pay for their photos when asking for feedback.  And same thing goes for photographers.  I hate when I see models posting their rates on their walls unwarranted.

This post has nothing to do with what I want and everything to do with models and photographers being aligned rather than fighting over who deserves to be compensated.
Oct 05 12 12:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MZ PhotoFilm
Posts: 202
Jacksonville, Florida, US


Rich Burroughs wrote:
The caveat though, is that if you contact me and rave about how much you love my images and then drop your rates on me 5 messages later, I'm likely to be upset.

yeah thats what i am meaning though, i have gotten so many of those and i just wonder "didnt you come to me wanting to shoot with me, using my time"

Oct 05 12 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Alivia Autumn wrote:

Clearly I don't want it enough to pay.  And if I did see someone I wanted to pay, I'd reach out to them.

Really though, stop with the profile mining.

What's written on my profile is irrelevant to the op.

What I said is relevant to the OP and had nothing to do with anything on your profile, I quoted your statement "Want, not Need" and made a simple statement about how I conduct business.

Oct 05 12 12:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote:
What I said is relevant to the OP and had nothing to do with anything on your profile, I quoted your statement "Want, not Need" and made a simple statement about how I conduct business.

You weren't the original profile miner.  And did you read the OP, not the responses, the orignal post?  Hmm?

Oct 05 12 12:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
B R E N N A N
Posts: 4,093
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
I always see posts on why models are trying to justify getting paid, and why photographers are trying to justify getting paid.  I know the economy sucks, but if you really enjoy the industry why get so greedy and catty about it.

Food for thought.  You have a model, who has decent images and is quite happy with their portforlio but her posing or facial expression is off, why do photographers immediately start yelling in the feedback section, pay someone!  Pay someone.  Especially if the feedback is based off what the model needs improvement on.  A "better" photographer isn't going to produce better photo's if the model needs work.

Because a skilled photographer will be able to coach the model and get the best out of her.

The same thing goes the other way, if a photographer has crappy photos, lighting is bad, bokeh is off, then how the hell is paying a pro model going to enhance his port when he makes her look like shit.

Because we often know more than the photographer about photography. We know hot angle ourselves towards the light, what poses work best for what scenario, and can provide advice and direction for the photographer.

No one cares about your rates.  Trading is awesome.

No one cares how you run your business. I have paid, been paid, and done trade. Everyone does what works best for them.

Oct 05 12 12:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Alivia Autumn wrote:

You weren't the original profile miner.  And did you read the OP, not the responses, the orignal post?  Hmm?

Yes I read your OP, re-read my first post.

Oct 05 12 12:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


MZ PhotoFilm wrote:

yeah thats what i am meaning though, i have gotten so many of those and i just wonder "didnt you come to me wanting to shoot with me, using my time"

That's ridiculous, and I would be bothered as well.  But I'm not talking about reguluar pm's back and forth with people in the industry.  I'm specifically talking about the forums and how everyone's answer is pay someone.  Not ALWAYS the best solution.

Oct 05 12 12:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


B R E N N A N wrote:

Alivia Autumn wrote:
I always see posts on why models are trying to justify getting paid, and why photographers are trying to justify getting paid.  I know the economy sucks, but if you really enjoy the industry why get so greedy and catty about it.

Food for thought.  You have a model, who has decent images and is quite happy with their portforlio but her posing or facial expression is off, why do photographers immediately start yelling in the feedback section, pay someone!  Pay someone.  Especially if the feedback is based off what the model needs improvement on.  A "better" photographer isn't going to produce better photo's if the model needs work.

Because a skilled photographer will be able to coach the model and get the best out of her.

The same thing goes the other way, if a photographer has crappy photos, lighting is bad, bokeh is off, then how the hell is paying a pro model going to enhance his port when he makes her look like shit.

Because we often know more than the photographer about photography. We know hot angle ourselves towards the light, what poses work best for what scenario, and can provide advice and direction for the photographer.


No one cares how you run your business. I have paid, been paid, and done trade. Everyone does what works best for them.

Your angling isn't going to help bad photography period dot.  You are deluisional if you think that you can turn a bad photographer into someone who delivers quality images.  Furthermore not all people use this site as a business, I have other sources of income.  It appears the starving artists are the ones always throwing their rates and getting catty and bitchy.

Conclusions have been made, and MM is filled with greedy folks.  I'm done.

Oct 05 12 12:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Alivia Autumn wrote:

Your angling isn't going to help bad photography period dot.  You are deluisional if you think that you can turn a bad photographer into someone who delivers quality images.  Furthermore not all people use this site as a business, I have other sources of income.  It appears the starving artists are the ones always throwing their rates and getting catty and bitchy.

Conclusions have been made, and MM is filled with greedy folks.  I'm done.

Damn, we're going to miss all your wisdom and interesting discussions.

Oct 05 12 12:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
B R E N N A N
Posts: 4,093
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Your angling isn't going to help bad photography period dot.  You are deluisional if you think that you can turn a bad photographer into someone who delivers quality images.  Furthermore not all people use this site as a business, I have other sources of income.  It appears the starving artists are the ones always throwing their rates and getting catty and bitchy.

Conclusions have been made, and MM is filled with greedy folks.  I'm done.

Sensitive much? lol

Okay fine, so I will give you that good angling does not make a bad photographer good. Does me suggesting he shoot something from a lower angle? Or suggest using a different lens? Or how about me suggesting he move the light a few inches, to provide some interesting lighting, as opposed to flat? Or me being paid to retouch the images, since yanno, I'm also a published photographer too.

I've shot for Marriott, Coke, Applebee's, Budweiser, and a bazillion other clients and MM'ers alike. Starving artist I aint. So should I go around trading with every Tom, Dick, and Harry because trading is awesome? You've been modeling for less than a year and have had ten shoots according to your profile.  You are an expert on how I should conduct my business how, exactly?

Oct 05 12 12:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Escalante
Posts: 5,367
Chicago, Illinois, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Food for thought.  You have a model, who has decent images and is quite happy with their portforlio but her posing or facial expression is off, why do photographers immediately start yelling in the feedback section, pay someone!  Pay someone.  Especially if the feedback is based off what the model needs improvement on.  A "better" photographer isn't going to produce better photo's if the model needs work
Your angling isn't going to help bad photography period dot.  You are deluisional if you think that you can turn a bad photographer into someone who delivers quality images.  Furthermore not all people use this site as a business, I have other sources of income.  It appears the starving artists are the ones always throwing their rates and getting catty and bitchy.

Conclusions have been made, and MM is filled with greedy folks.  I'm done.

popcorn

Love how clueless people come to these idiotic conclusions because they THINK Things should function the way THEY WANT ....


Hypocrites . 


why trade with someone who has nothing you want or someone who you wouldn't take payment from in the first place (yes I turn ALOT of money away ).
  Some of us Choose not to shoot anyone without potential.
    Payment or not  (and I don't work without payment. ).


Some one's Idea of 'decent' images is an other's example of sub-par work.



p.s.  it's spelled 'portfolio'  & 'delusional'

Oct 05 12 12:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
B R E N N A N
Posts: 4,093
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


Escalante wrote:

popcorn

Love how clueless people come to these idiotic conclusions because they THINK Things should function the way THEY WANT ....


Hypocrites . 


why trade with someone who has nothing you want or someone who you wouldn't take payment from in the first place (yes I turn ALOT of money away ).
  Some of us Choose not to shoot anyone without potential.
    Payment or not  (and I don't work without payment. ).





p.s.  it's spelled 'portfolio'  & 'delusional'

Shush E, apparently we're just catty starving artists. neutral


lol

Oct 05 12 12:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Escalante
Posts: 5,367
Chicago, Illinois, US


B R E N N A N wrote:
Shush E, apparently we're just catty starving artists. neutral


lol

I know it seriously sucks being paid for the past 26 yrs  as a starving artist (?)


It cost $150 a day to run my 3000 sq ft studio in Chicago , and it is harsh telling my Agency repped Make up artist and stylists to NOT make money for a Day because someone THINKS they DESERVE to be Photographed for FREE ...

You know my team and work B , we are so Hungry ...


Maybe B its because I have always thought 'good angling ' was meant for Fly Fishing more then Photographing For Work ...

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/166011_370064426391232_781399054_n.jpg

Oct 05 12 12:58 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,024
New York, New York, US


While admitting that there are a number of circumstances where payment in money is actually more appropriate, here on MM, at any rate, some form of trade is likely to be at least as beneficial in most cases. 

By the numbers, most models and photographers on here really not ready to be paid, although most would disagree.  You can't make much of a business selling to people who don't have any money.
Oct 05 12 01:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,026
Chicago, Illinois, US


Alivia, you've touched on a great point.   Models aren't or shouldn't be clients.   In fact if the bulk of your money is from model tests after a few years of shooting somethings wrong.   You want stores, designers, companies and advertising agencies to pay you.   You want campaigns and liquors ads.   Charging broke girls who dream of becoming models a hefty fee to help them 'get signed' is largely bs.   I live in Chicago and shooters like Jack Perno for example work here.   http://www.jackperno.com/mobile/   If he or his wife liked your look you'll shoot.   He won't care if you can pay him because he has real world CLIENTS that do.

There are wonderful models on MM but NOT one is going to make me a better photographer.   A model who doesn't really have it may get better images by working with a talented person but  if she doesn't have it still won't be signed or get paid work.   This ideal of charging models to shoot or models charging us is a closed loop.   Its a bad business plan as well.   This is not to put down those who do paid tests.   We all need to eat but you really need to focus on paying clients and models struggling to pay rent, school, clothes and car aren't really a good target market.
Oct 05 12 01:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,007
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Escalante wrote:
why trade with someone who has nothing you want or someone who you wouldn't take payment from in the first place (yes I turn ALOT of money away ).
  Some of us Choose not to shoot anyone without potential.
    Payment or not  (and I don't work without payment. ).


Some one's Idea of 'decent' images is an other's example of sub-par work.



p.s.  it's spelled 'portfolio'  & 'delusional'

It's "a lot" not "alot". If you are going to point out someone's misspelled words, it's usually best to make sure your own post is error free. wink

Oct 05 12 01:39 pm  Link  Quote 
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