Tony Lawrence wrote:
Alivia, you've touched on a great point.   Models aren't or shouldn't be clients.   In fact if the bulk of your money is from model tests after a few years of shooting somethings wrong.   You want stores, designers, companies and advertising agencies to pay you.   You want campaigns and liquors ads.   Charging broke girls who dream of becoming models a hefty fee to help them 'get signed' is largely bs.   I live in Chicago and shooters like Jack Perno for example work here.   http://www.jackperno.com/mobile/   If he or his wife liked your look you'll shoot.   He won't care if you can pay him because he has real world CLIENTS that do.

There are wonderful models on MM but NOT one is going to make me a better photographer.   A model who doesn't really have it may get better images by working with a talented person but  if she doesn't have it still won't be signed or get paid work.   This ideal of charging models to shoot or models charging us is a closed loop.   Its a bad business plan as well.   This is not to put down those who do paid tests.   We all need to eat but you really need to focus on paying clients and models struggling to pay rent, school, clothes and car aren't really a good target market.

Sensitive much?

As someone who is regularly saying how you are not in the industry at all(no business clients , no tearsheets , no paid agency work )
Yet You are an expert on how photographers  should conduct their business how , exactly?
The Manner in which one person conducts their  business
isn't the same business model someone else uses .

Again not knowing jack about how things actually work and making stupid assumptions as you continuously seem to be posting isn't right either .



How Ironic ... Jack is down the street from me as is Marc Hauser & Stan Malinowski , who are both my mentors as wellas good friends .If we re going to be name  dropping .

Alivia Autumn wrote:

Your angling isn't going to help bad photography period dot.  You are deluisional if you think that you can turn a bad photographer into someone who delivers quality images.  Furthermore not all people use this site as a business, I have other sources of income.  It appears the starving artists are the ones always throwing their rates and getting catty and bitchy.

Conclusions have been made, and MM is filled with greedy folks.  I'm done.

LOVE THIS!!! Such a.. Is it conundrum?   LOL...

I agree with sooo many things, on soo many levels, the OP is right!! As trying to discuss the childish behaviour on the forums, MORE childish behaviour becomes of it!!   On the forums... Go figure.. The war will never end OP!! Sorry bout your luck!! Its not about the forums!!! Its about the quality of the forums!!    Maybe speaking with mentors is a better idea?

As it seems pointing out behaviours, will not stop them, or prevent them, but rather escelate them, due to the children on this site

"YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!"

Escalante wrote:
I know it seriously sucks being paid for the past 26 yrs  as a starving artist (?)


It cost $150 a day to run my 3000 sq ft studio in Chicago , and it is harsh telling my Agency repped Make up artist and stylists to NOT make money for a Day because someone THINKS they DESERVE to be Photographed for FREE ...

You know my team and work B , we are so Hungry ...


Maybe B its because I have always thought 'good angling ' was meant for Fly Fishing more then Photographing For Work ...

Beautiful composition there! Really nice, almost like a print ad minus the captions.....

Anyways, there are plenty of people who will work for free and they've either "made it" and they're simply giving back somehow or they're not on the level of where they want to be yet. There is always the 3rd option where they could just suck, but that's for the most part an opinionated thing, so I won't throw that out there. If a llama wants to get to "the next level", they have to understand that they have to be willing to invest to further themselves and their careers. There are instances where TF is useful, but in places like MM where there is an oversaturation of TF's, one doesn't have the time to sit and baby beginning llamas through a negotiation process.

Escalante wrote:

Sensitive much?

As someone who is regularly saying how you are not in the industry at all(no business clients , no tearsheets , no paid agency work )
Yet You are an expert on how photographers  should conduct their business how , exactly?
The Manner in which one person conducts their  business
isn't the same business model someone else uses .

Again not knowing jack about how things actually work and making stupid assumptions as you continuously seem to be posting isn't right either .



How Ironic ... Jack is down the street from me as is Marc Hauser & Stan Malinowski , who are both my mentors as wellas good friends .If we re going to be name  dropping .

I know you know them.   I also know several NY commercial ad shooters.   I've assisted some names.   My point was and is that its client work photographers want.   Test shoots for new faces at agencies year after year tends to mean you're not all that good.   That's not a assumption my man that's a fact.    Charging wannabe models who stand little chance of doing anything is crap no matter who does it and I didn't quote you so who's sensitive.   There is a old saying.   Its the dog that gets hit with the rock that yelps.   If what I said has no bearing on you why say anything.   So I'm clear.   Being a pro fashion, commercial or advertising shooters means having real world clients.   Its not hustling new models via port mill agencies.   Its not doing  agency tests forever.   

I wonder if guys like Karl Lagerfield or Sabastian Faena or Terry Richardson or Amy Troost worry about some cash poor models ability to pay.   Nope they shoot whom they like because they have ACTUAL clients who pay their bills and models shouldn't be clients for working shooters because they've established themselves.   Haven't you?   You're also right.   Why should anyone listen to me.   I'm not world famous or famous in my own mind.   There are those who do paid tests and that's largely all they do.   That's also their business.

Escalante wrote:

I think I've built an ok portfolio on just trade and paid(as in payment to me) shoots. However If I could pay photographers I would. Part of my problem besides being broke is I live in the middle of nowhere, with all the expenses I have traveling to work with photographers who lives hours away, I can barely fit in tf, no possible way I could pay a photographer unless I wanted to sleep in my car instead of a hotel.

I'm planning a trip to chicago soon, I would love to be able to work with you. Maybe someday I can be as successful as brennan and not be a starving model, and then I could afford a shoot with you great work.

The F-Stop wrote:
How about if we all work together, we can get some awsome ports costing us nothing n then go out n make a living off em?

What do you need... can I help?

Alivia Autumn wrote:
I don't NEED anything.

Why do people put statements into such absolutes...  Sorry your only source of income is this site.  No need to be facetious.

This might be a great example why "wars" happen. A photographer is suggesting we all work together to the benefit of all involved...and you flame him.

He wasn't asking YOU personally what you NEED. He was making a general statement to convey his philosophy. As in, let's all work together. Tell me what you need. Can I help?

Maybe if you don't like the wars between models and photographers you shouldn't instigate them.

Alivia Autumn wrote:
I always see posts on why models are trying to justify getting paid, and why photographers are trying to justify getting paid.  I know the economy sucks, but if you really enjoy the industry why get so greedy and catty about it.

Food for thought.  You have a model, who has decent images and is quite happy with their portforlio but her posing or facial expression is off, why do photographers immediately start yelling in the feedback section, pay someone!  Pay someone.  Especially if the feedback is based off what the model needs improvement on.  A "better" photographer isn't going to produce better photo's if the model needs work.

The same thing goes the other way, if a photographer has crappy photos, lighting is bad, bokeh is off, then how the hell is paying a pro model going to enhance his port when he makes her look like shit.

No one cares about your rates.  Trading is awesome.

So, what do you offer that TF models don't? It works on both sides.

Escalante wrote:



Love how clueless people come to these idiotic conclusions because they THINK Things should function the way THEY WANT ....


Hypocrites . 


why trade with someone who has nothing you want or someone who you wouldn't take payment from in the first place (yes I turn ALOT of money away ).
  Some of us Choose not to shoot anyone without potential.
    Payment or not  (and I don't work without payment. ).


Some one's Idea of 'decent' images is an other's example of sub-par work.



p.s.  it's spelled 'portfolio'  & 'delusional'

True!

Alivia Autumn wrote:
I always see posts on why models are trying to justify getting paid, and why photographers are trying to justify getting paid.  I know the economy sucks, but if you really enjoy the industry why get so greedy and catty about it.
Food for thought.  You have a model, who has decent images and is quite happy with their portforlio but her posing or facial expression is off, why do photographers immediately start yelling in the feedback section, pay someone!  Pay someone.  Especially if the feedback is based off what the model needs improvement on.  A "better" photographer isn't going to produce better photo's if the model needs work.
The same thing goes the other way, if a photographer has crappy photos, lighting is bad, bokeh is off, then how the hell is paying a pro model going to enhance his port when he makes her look like shit.
No one cares about your rates.  Trading is awesome.

Here is why you don't know anything about photographer/photographer; a people photographer is not just about clicking the camera. The skill is also in how to manage people's psychology and personality. Even within the genre of people photography, there are also different areas of personality management. Say a model' shooter is not going to have the same people skill needed as in shooting young children.

Michael Pandolfo wrote:

The F-Stop wrote:
How about if we all work together, we can get some awsome ports costing us nothing n then go out n make a living off em?

What do you need... can I help?

This might be a great example why "wars" happen. A photographer is suggesting we all work together to the benefit of all involved...and you flame him.

He wasn't asking YOU personally what you NEED. He was making a general statement to convey his philosophy. As in, let's all work together. Tell me what you need. Can I help?

Maybe if you don't like the wars between models and photographers you shouldn't instigate them.

Well that's what difficult about conversing in forums, there's so many people who think their snarky commentary is funny.  And it's difficult to distinguish whether or not they are be sarcastic.  I took his post as being facetious.  Now if he was being real, which I doubt cause we don't live in the same state, then of course I'd take him on his offer.

B R E N N A N wrote:
Sensitive much?

Okay fine, so I will give you that good angling does not make a bad photographer good. Does me suggesting he shoot something from a lower angle? Or suggest using a different lens? Or how about me suggesting he move the light a few inches, to provide some interesting lighting, as opposed to flat? Or me being paid to retouch the images, since yanno, I'm also a published photographer too.

I've shot for Marriott, Coke, Applebee's, Budweiser, and a bazillion other clients and MM'ers alike. Starving artist I aint. So should I go around trading with every Tom, Dick, and Harry because trading is awesome? You've been modeling for less than a year and have had ten shoots according to your profile.  You are an expert on how I should conduct my business how, exactly?

You must be mistaken on the context of the OP.  Sure give me your rates, if  I ASK for them, or ASK to work with you.  What I'm talking about is people coming up to you and blindly throwing rates, again I don't care about your rates, if I did, I'd ASK.

Secondly when asking for feedback in the feedback section, not just myself, from MOST of the posts I read, people are screaming, PAY someone.  Where really it's the person in question who needs work.

Where in my OP am I suggesting how someone conduct business??

Sugar Sharai wrote:

LOVE THIS!!! Such a.. Is it conundrum?   LOL...

I agree with sooo many things, on soo many levels, the OP is right!! As trying to discuss the childish behaviour on the forums, MORE childish behaviour becomes of it!!   On the forums... Go figure.. The war will never end OP!! Sorry bout your luck!! Its not about the forums!!! Its about the quality of the forums!!    Maybe speaking with mentors is a better idea?

As it seems pointing out behaviours, will not stop them, or prevent them, but rather escelate them, due to the children on this site

"YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!"

Thanks for being a real person here for discussion.  I'm glad others can see where I'm coming from rather than trying to cause more drama.

Alivia Autumn wrote:

You must be mistaken on the context of the OP.  Sure give me your rates, if  I ASK for them, or ASK to work with you.  What I'm talking about is people coming up to you and blindly throwing rates, again I don't care about your rates, if I did, I'd ASK.

Secondly when asking for feedback in the feedback section, not just myself, from MOST of the posts I read, people are screaming, PAY someone.  Where really it's the person in question who needs work.

Where in my OP am I suggesting how someone conduct business??

Oh, okay, I get it; you're mad someone sent you their rates instead of offering to trade with you. All makes sense now...

Aly Danielle wrote:

I think I've built an ok portfolio on just trade and paid(as in payment to me) shoots. However If I could pay photographers I would. Part of my problem besides being broke is I live in the middle of nowhere, with all the expenses I have traveling to work with photographers who lives hours away, I can barely fit in tf, no possible way I could pay a photographer unless I wanted to sleep in my car instead of a hotel.

I'm planning a trip to chicago soon, I would love to be able to work with you. Maybe someday I can be as successful as brennan and not be a starving model, and then I could afford a shoot with you great work.

There's actually a number of very, very talented photographers within an hours drive of you. Message me if you would like a list.

B R E N N A N wrote:
Oh, okay, I get it; you're mad someone sent you their rates instead of offering to trade with you. All makes sense now...

Assume much? No... Unsolicited offers. Calm yourself.  Snark snark

Alivia Autumn wrote:
And the war continues.............. keep coming

I thought I missed the war and didn't know what you were talking aobut but, now it makes sense.
Best,
Jen
edit: OH! I get it, another train wrecker, on wheels...

Alivia Autumn wrote:
Your angling isn't going to help bad photography period dot.  You are deluisional ...  I'm done.

Alivia Autumn wrote:
Your angling isn't going to help bad photography period dot.  You are deluisional if you think that you can turn a bad photographer into someone who delivers quality images.

I shot with a fantastic model (like Brennan, who I also shot with, but she came later) when I had barely gotten started.  I knew how to make sure the model was, nearly always, in the shot, not much more.  Probably 2/3 of the shots were total crap, blurry, etc.  BUT, thanks to her understanding of angles and light, I got some images that I loved then, and in fact still do.  Two of them are in my port four years later.  On the occasions when I wander into critique, no one has EVER said those images aren't up to the standards of my port.

Alivia Autumn wrote:

Assume much? No... Unsolicited offers. Calm yourself.  Snark snark

Kind of like how you assumed I was a starving artist?

Alivia Autumn wrote:

You must be mistaken on the context of the OP.  Sure give me your rates, if  I ASK for them, or ASK to work with you.  What I'm talking about is people coming up to you and blindly throwing rates, again I don't care about your rates, if I did, I'd ASK.

Secondly when asking for feedback in the feedback section, not just myself, from MOST of the posts I read, people are screaming, PAY someone.  Where really it's the person in question who needs work.

Where in my OP am I suggesting how someone conduct business??

Ah this makes more sense than your original post, maybe re-edit it?

Yep' being thrown rates can be annoying if you've not asked for them.

Eye of the World wrote:
Actually, experienced pro models will usually help even a crappy photographer produce better images than they have currently. Not just by knowing how to pose, but by understanding light and positioning themselves properly, making suggestions both technically and creatively (If you do X it might look awesome) and so on. I periodically show the model some of the images on the camera LCD and welcome their input.

Sadly too many of these crappy photographers don't know the first thing about lighting to begin with. A good model isn't going to help much when the lighting sucks.

bmiSTUDIO wrote:

Sadly too many of these crappy photographers don't know the first thing about lighting to begin with. A good model isn't going to help much when the lighting sucks.

Agreed.

Same goes for vice versa

JessieLeigh wrote:
It's "a lot" not "alot". If you are going to point out someone's misspelled words, it's usually best to make sure your own post is error free.

Don't forget his poor grammar, "who has nothing you want"
Should be who does not have anything you want.
And what's with the punctuation before the parenthesis AND after... And you want to talk shit about misspellings? Id much rather be an eloquent speaker than a pompous "photographer" with poor grammar who points out the irrelevant.
I

Alivia Autumn wrote:
Agreed.

Same goes for vice versa

Did you just tell Bill he should stop shooting new models? Because his years of experience can't help them? Can't get them a better portfolio? Can't get them better work?

Alivia Autumn wrote:
A "better" photographer isn't going to produce better photo's if the model needs work.

That's not entirely true.

I coach my models and often work with first times models and get looks and expressions out of them they did not even know they had in them.

Sometimes they are surprised by how beautiful and different they look from all of  the other pictures they have taken. So they learn a lot in the process.

So a photographer like myself can produce better photos by helping the model become a better model through direction and feedback.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Look folks, professional models and photographers do free test shoots all the time.   Not always with big names but because they love shooting and being a part of art.   It tends to be lower level photographers who charge or feel they need to charge everyone they shoot.   Models are NOT clients or really shouldn't be for photographers who have been at this for a few years.   You want real world clients.   You want stores, catalogs, look books, make-up, hair beauty work.   Cindy Crawford shot all the time with Victor S.   http://skrebneskiphotographs.com/home.html   Its not like he needed the practice.

I know singers, actors and writers who work all the time simply because they love what they do and often for free.   Part of being a artist is constant practice to improve.   If the bulk of your money comes from doing agency tests then it may be time to reexamine things.   That's not a slap at any member.   Go grab a copy of any of the fashion mags.   Vogue, Bazaar, Elle, V or W and look at the editorials.   The models in those cool ads are working with the best and those moving up in the fashion world for free.   None of those shooters have half the ego members here seem to have.

Personally, I pass on models who's only focus is how much I can pay and not what the project may be.   Again there are those who make a living from charging for test shoots or charging photographers to work with them.

I concur 100%, well said.

NewBoldPhoto wrote:

Did you just tell Bill he should stop shooting new models? Because his years of experience can't help them? Can't get them a better portfolio? Can't get them better work?

My response was to...
bmiSTUDIO wrote:

Sadly too many of these crappy photographers don't know the first thing about lighting to begin with. A good model isn't going to help much when the lighting sucks.

I don't know who Bill is, but when I say same goes for vice versa, that means, crappy models aren't going to get better photos from great photographers, if they don't know how to pose, position, expression, etc.

Sure the background and everything else may make the image more visually appealing, but if the model is unaware of how to model, it doesn't matter how talented the photgrapher is.  It's a 2 way street.

What are you talking about?

Laurence Moan wrote:

Thank you!
Sorry about your New Mexico situation....

Sounds like someones throwing fuel on the fireeeee...

Alivia Autumn wrote:

My response was to...
bmiSTUDIO wrote:

Sadly too many of these crappy photographers don't know the first thing about lighting to begin with. A good model isn't going to help much when the lighting sucks.

I don't know who Bill is, but when I say same goes for vice versa, that means, crappy models aren't going to get better photos from great photographers, if they don't know how to pose, position, expression, etc.

Sure the background and everything else may make the image more visually appealing, but if the model is unaware of how to model, it doesn't matter how talented the photgrapher is.  It's a 2 way street.

What are you talking about?

The problem is you're ignoring all the extremely experienced people who have chimed in on this thread that have said it does matter, and that a great model can get great images from a shitty photographer, and a great photographer can get great images from a shitty model.

B R E N N A N wrote:

The problem is you're ignoring all the extremely experienced people who have chimed in on this thread that have said it does matter, and that a great model can get great images from a shitty photographer, and a great photographer can get great images from a shitty model.

Why are you still addressing me?  Yes, I am "ignoring," chosing to not respond because I disagree.  What's your point?

Alivia Autumn wrote:
Why are you still addressing me?  Yes, I am "ignoring," chosing to not respond because I disagree.  What's your point?

Because this is a public forum. And I'm procrastinating. Why have you not taken the point from people that know what they're talking about that you should stfu? You start an anti-flame war thread, and turn it into a flame war. *golf claps*

And it's "choosing," since we're all being so petty about grammar and spelling.