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first123
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


B R E N N A N wrote:
Because this is a public forum. And I'm procrastinating. Why have you not taken the point from people that know what they're talking about that you should stfu? You start an anti-flame war thread, and turn it into a flame war. *golf claps*

And it's "choosing," since we're all being so petty about grammar and spelling. wink

Procrastinating???  Procrastinating what? That makes absolutely no sense.  Second, what makes you think "you and your people" are experts in the industry and that "your thoughts/opinons" are correct, I'm trying to have a discussion, and YOU are pushing YOUR opinons on ME. So get a life, move on to a different thread, I'm done reading and responding to the http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iw5TaUpM1OI/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAABg/oWjr6XtVW8o/s120-c/photo.jpg known as brennan...

Oct 06 12 10:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MB Jen B
Posts: 2,849
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


Post hidden on Oct 07, 2012 01:18 am
Reason: inflammatory
Oct 06 12 11:06 pm  Link 
Photographer
Robert Lynch
Posts: 2,482
Bowie, Maryland, US


B R E N N A N wrote:
Because this is a public forum. And I'm procrastinating.
Alivia Autumn wrote:
Procrastinating???  Procrastinating what? That makes absolutely no sense.

It makes perfect sense.

In psychology, procrastination refers to the act of replacing high-priority actions with tasks of lower priority, or doing something from which one derives enjoyment, and thus putting off important tasks to a later time. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrastination

She's here killing time instead of doing something arguably more important.  People do it all of the time.  I'm doing it right now.  What don't you understand about that?

Alivia Autumn wrote:
Second, what makes you think "you and your people" are experts in the industry and that "your thoughts/opinons" are correct

Perhaps because they have all been doing this since long before April 2012.

Alivia Autumn wrote:
I'm trying to have a discussion

Deliberately ignoring anything that does not fit your preconceived ideas is not having a discussion, but perhaps you are one of those people who have never been wrong about anything.  Must be nice.

Oct 06 12 11:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darryl Varner
Posts: 684
Lexington, Kentucky, US


I've done trades (from way back before Model Mayhem - or the Internet, for that matter - even existed). Surprisingly often, trade sessions have led to referrals for paid jobs, some of which led to additional paying jobs.  Personally, I think it makes good business sense.
Oct 06 12 11:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Robert Lynch wrote:

B R E N N A N wrote:
Because this is a public forum. And I'm procrastinating.
Alivia Autumn wrote:
Procrastinating???  Procrastinating what? That makes absolutely no sense.

It makes perfect sense.

[i]


Deliberately ignoring anything that does not fit your preconceived ideas is not having a discussion, but perhaps you are one of those people who have never been wrong about anything.  Must be nice.

Uhm, throwing unsolicited rates at people is bad business. She is justifying that behavior by saying that the photographer would produce better images.. Again irrelevant that's why its bring ignored. Try reading the whole thread before white nightingale next time.

Oct 06 12 11:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Knighting.

Damn auto correct
Oct 06 12 11:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Love the Arts
Posts: 711
Chicago, Illinois, US


Darryl Varner wrote:
I've done trades (from way back before llama Mayhem - or the Internet, for that matter - even existed). Surprisingly often, trade sessions have led to referrals for paid jobs, some of which led to additional paying jobs.  Personally, I think it makes good business sense.

1

Trading is awesome when you can connect with your llama and can make some great captures.  I wish times were more prosperous for everyone. That way we could focus more on creating art, enjoying life and developing great new friendships.

Oct 06 12 11:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Love the Arts wrote:

+1

Trading is awesome when you can connect with your model and can make some great captures.  I wish times were more prosperous for everyone. That way we could focus more on creating art, enjoying life and developing great new friendships.

^^^    this

Oct 06 12 11:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Lynch
Posts: 2,482
Bowie, Maryland, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
Uhm, throwing unsolicited rates at people is bad business. She is justifying that behavior by saying that the photographer would produce better images.. Again irrelevant that's why its bring ignored. Try reading the whole thread before white nightingale next time.

I did read the whole thread.  She's not justifying "throwing unsolicited rates at people" which is a concept that you introduced after you started the thread.  Your original statement condemned the advice commonly given to models who need to improve their modeling skills to pay a better photographer.  You think it's pointless.  Multiple people in this thread with a lot more experience than you disagree.

Oct 06 12 11:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


It seems like both of you , (Brennan and Alivia) have similar ideals... just different ways of expressing it...
Oct 07 12 12:00 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Robert Lynch wrote:

I did read the whole thread.  She's not justifying "throwing unsolicited rates at people" which is a concept that you introduced after you started the thread.  Your original statement condemned the advice commonly given to models who need to improve their modeling skills to pay a better photographer.  You think it's pointless.  Multiple people in this thread with a lot more experience than you disagree.

Why are you still arguing...  Pass time somewhere else.  You are coming to your own conclusions.

I don't have a problem with paying photographers IF I want their services.  Where does it say I don't think people should pay for services?

"I think it's pointless??"  Since when did I say that?  If I felt my modeling skills were superb and I just couldn't find a photographer that could capture my essense, sure I'll hire one.  But I happen to love the photographer's I've worked with and think they do great work.  Why pay someone, when I have people willing to shoot me for free?  That's just a response to your assumptions about what I find "pointless."

The OP, is that every time I look in the feedback section, it's always brought up to pay someone.  That's not the answer.  Sometimes it might be like the above scenario.  But not in the cases stated in the OP.  Furthermore why are you getting so arguementive about it.  Like what's her face said, it's a public forum, what do you care what I think.  Oh, that's right, you don't, you were just trying to be a white knight.  Que cute.  wink

Oct 07 12 12:05 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


You guys are really arguing over nothing... nothing at all...
Alivia says she doesn't like when photographers just spit out rates on first contact, without even being asked for them. That would annoy me to. Probably just as much as it would annoy a photographer if I messaged him and said "love your work, we should do something together, these are my rates..."

Brennan is saying that it is helpful to pay more experienced models/photographers to improve ones portfolio. I do beleive a very experienced photographer could improve my portfolio, teach me some posing tricks. I've had more experienced photographers teach me many things about looking at the lighting and adjusting your body to it, angling yourself, and specific things that work well for myself in general.

So... I don't know what the argument is about... now were talking about grammar? Looking silly? Just remember, potential future working partners may be watching this thread and crossing you off their list... no one likes drama over nothing...

Edit: As long as we're being picky about meaningless things, I do have to say something about one particular thing... "que cute"? ugh... Why... If your going to write a phrase in another language, finish the phrase in the same language. It sounds ridiculous to a person who knows both languages...
Oct 07 12 12:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Moodscapes
Posts: 419
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Yep Trade is a beautiful thing.
Not everyone on MM is here to try and make money. I just love creating beautiful images. A while back I realised trying to make money from doing this was pretty unlikely, so I work part time to earn money and spend the rest of the time just taking whatever pics take my fancy.
Luckily I don't ever need to pay models as they're all happy to work TFP to get something unique for their ports.
Win-win all round :-)
Oct 07 12 12:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,363
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:
And the war continues.............. keep coming smile

And thank you for starting a drama thread to keep the fires burning.

Oct 07 12 12:15 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
You guys are really arguing over nothing... nothing at all...
Alivia says she doesn't like when photographers just spit out rates on first contact, without even being asked for them. That would annoy me to. Probably just as much as it would annoy a photographer if I messaged him and said "love your work, we should do something together, these are my rates..."

Brennan is saying that it is helpful to pay more experienced models/photographers to improve ones portfolio. I do beleive a very experienced photographer could improve my portfolio, teach me some posing tricks. I've had more experienced photographers teach me many things about looking at the lighting and adjusting your body to it, angling yourself, and specific things that work well for myself in general.

So... I don't know what the argument is about... now were talking about grammar? Looking silly? Just remember, potential future working partners may be watching this thread and crossing you off their list... no one likes drama over nothing...

Finally!  At least someone gets it, hopefully you killed the thread.  smile

Oct 07 12 12:16 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


double post (accidental quoting of myself)
Oct 07 12 12:16 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
You guys are really arguing over nothing... nothing at all...
Alivia says she doesn't like when photographers just spit out rates on first contact, without even being asked for them. That would annoy me to. Probably just as much as it would annoy a photographer if I messaged him and said "love your work, we should do something together, these are my rates..."

Brennan is saying that it is helpful to pay more experienced models/photographers to improve ones portfolio. I do beleive a very experienced photographer could improve my portfolio, teach me some posing tricks. I've had more experienced photographers teach me many things about looking at the lighting and adjusting your body to it, angling yourself, and specific things that work well for myself in general.

So... I don't know what the argument is about... now were talking about grammar? Looking silly? Just remember, potential future working partners may be watching this thread and crossing you off their list... no one likes drama over nothing...

Edit: As long as we're being picky about meaningless things, I do have to say something about one particular thing... "que cute"? ugh... Why... If your going to write a phrase in another language, finish the phrase in the same language. It sounds ridiculous to a person who knows both languages...

It's a New Mexico thing.  My boss actually joked and said I should move to the south vally.  Haha.

Oct 07 12 12:18 am  Link  Quote 
Model
MB Jen B
Posts: 2,849
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


self edit to un-inflame and for simplicity.

Escalante wrote:
Hypocrites . 


why trade with someone who has nothing you want or someone who you wouldn't take payment from in the first place (yes I turn ALOT of money away ).
  Some of us Choose not to shoot anyone without potential.
    Payment or not  (and I don't work without payment. ).

...

You have cleared the fog on any potential professional photographers helping for hire to new models here sir, by your actions at least. I'm glad to know how you really feel about it and it explains the mystery blocking by you. Aha. smile
Thank you in that at least.
Jen

Oct 07 12 07:45 am  Link  Quote 
Model
B R E N N A N
Posts: 4,088
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


Alivia Autumn wrote:

Uhm, throwing unsolicited rates at people is bad business. She is justifying that behavior by saying that the photographer would produce better images.. Again irrelevant that's why its bring ignored. Try reading the whole thread before white nightingale next time.

Calling people who disagree with you trolls and white knights does nothing to help your argument.

Nowhere in your OP did you state anything about sending rates to people unsolicited; you didn't introduce that idea until later on in the thread. And nowhere did I say that I agreed with blindly sending people rates, but even if I did think that was a good idea we're back to you telling other people how they should run their business.

And because "me and my people" have been doing this- and making a good living at it- since before you even considered modeling.

Oct 07 12 01:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


"Loud Noises!"

`Brick Tamland
Oct 07 12 01:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kelleth
Posts: 2,503
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


It takes a great photographer and a great model to create great images.

A great model working with a shitty photographer or vice versa can only improve each other's work so much. But it's certainly still better than a pairing of shitty model and shitty photographer.
Oct 07 12 01:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C
Posts: 7,884
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


I have said it before but shall say it again.
Mostly it's third parties who pay for photography shoots. In addition a great deal of modelling does not involve photography. Most of my income came from fitting modelling for designers and for fine art - life drawing , sculptors etc. If a photographer wanted to book me when I was pretty full time they'd have to pay too - because otherwise it would almost certainly cost me paid work - and sometimes that would be a few days booking with designers/art institutions. I'd imagine a full time pro photographer would also prioritise paid photography work over shooting tf with models too.
So in my experience most tf just doesn't actually happen because either the model has a paid gig come up or the photographer does. When it is a financial contract one way or the other it happens. If you are getting paid you have to work. If you are paying you make sure you get your money's worth. That isn't to say tf isn't useful on times but there is a reason barter doesn't generally replace money in any marketplace.

I think a decent model can improve any photographer's work at any level and likewise a decent photographer can improve any model's portfolio. But model or photographer can't always pay and often they can't afford to lose paid work for tf either. If they are both doing this for a living then you are unlikely to get tf on the 'portfolio build' scenario.

One final point -  models help intepret vision - the 'Art' is not ours and neither is the copyright and we don't expect images. Hence another reason experienced models get paid. On the other side inexperienced models should be paying photographers in many cases especially for portfolio shots.
Oct 08 12 03:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,493
Los Angeles, California, US


Kelleth wrote:
It takes a great photographer and a great model to create great images.

A great model working with a shitty photographer or vice versa can only improve each other's work so much. But it's certainly still better than a pairing of shitty model and shitty photographer.

Agreed.

Not to mention that sometimes you need something that the other party doesn't, or the job is for more than just portfolio work.

I've paid and been paid from Model Mayhem, and it wasn't necessarily "My work is better, you pay me," or "Your work is better, I'll pay you."

It was "I need these pictures. I want you to take them. You don't need them, I pay you."

From a me-paying point of view, that would usually be headshots.

Oct 08 12 04:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C
Posts: 7,884
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Moodscapes wrote:
Yep Trade is a beautiful thing.
Not everyone on MM is here to try and make money. I just love creating beautiful images. A while back I realised trying to make money from doing this was pretty unlikely, so I work part time to earn money and spend the rest of the time just taking whatever pics take my fancy.
Luckily I don't ever need to pay models as they're all happy to work TFP to get something unique for their ports.
Win-win all round :-)

And that is fine.

But what I object to is the accusation that if one does say 'sorry I don't do tf because I make a living from modelling' that somehow we are mercenary or liars. It's true that some models are unlikely to get recompense, ask for stupid rates of pay etc - but what I cannot understand is why a photographer who has invested so much in their equipment etc would be asking to work with them anyway.

I am only part time now but I was full time pro for several years and even now I shouldn't get abuse because I won't look at a job unless it pays. No matter how good a photographer's images are I have my own priorities. But the odd paid gig once or twice a month helps pay the rent. Now I can go and do a day in London fitting any time I wish but by the time I've paid train fare I'd only be £50 in profit. So I certainly am not taking the day off my Uni work for tf when I simply don't need photos. If I was going to do tf I would do it with those photographers who have supported me with paid work in the past.

Yes there are plenty of models who need to and enjoy modelling without pay and great if you can connect. But some of the abusive messages are annoying when one says 'don't do tf at this time sorry' and it's frequently the ropey photographers that I'd even have second thoughts about if paying. I'd imagine its the same the other way too - I can imagine photographers get plagued by ropey models asking for tf.

Oct 08 12 05:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jean Renard Photography
Posts: 2,018
Los Angeles, California, US


You get what you pay for and if you are trying to be a pro then you need to learn the value of things.

Trading between models and photographers was called "testing". It was generally set up between the agency and the photographer.  A favor done there was always worth the trouble and everyone participated. Today, the feeling is that everything should be free, the agencies rarely invest in the development of models and so a "test" is generally wasted by any of us who are pros. (this applies equally to both models and photographers).

The sites like this that feature alt models and mostly non represented models compound the problem by not giving the argument proper footing.  There must be value to a test for all sides.  But how to determine value if increasingly everyone thinks they must test for free or it is a scam despite getting marginal results? The critical thing for models is that the one thing that you never get back is the time so many of you are wasting.  Yours to waste of course, but lost opportunities are a sad thing.

And to address

Alivia Autumn wrote:
A "better" photographer isn't going to produce better photo's if the model needs work.

.

A solid photographer is the best way for a model to become better and I would go so far as to say that it is a necessity to a career.  You climb higher by working your way up the ladder, not by moving down or sideways.

Oct 08 12 06:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C
Posts: 7,884
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Jean Renard Photography wrote:
You get what you pay for and if you are trying to be a pro then you need to learn the value of things.

Trading between models and photographers was called "testing". It was generally set up between the agency and the photographer.  A favor done there was always worth the trouble and everyone participated. Today, the feeling is that everything should be free, the agencies rarely invest in the development of models and so a "test" is generally wasted by any of us who are pros. (this applies equally to both models and photographers).

The sites like this that feature alt models and mostly non represented models compound the problem by not giving the argument proper footing.  There must be value to a test for all sides.  But how to determine value if increasingly everyone thinks they must test for free or it is a scam despite getting marginal results? The critical thing for models is that the one thing that you never get back is the time so many of you are wasting.  Yours to waste of course, but lost opportunities are a sad thing.

And to address

A solid photographer is the best way for a model to become better and I would go so far as to say that it is a necessity to a career.  You climb higher by working your way up the ladder, not by moving down or sideways.

The kind of modelling your post is relevant to would be a tiny percentage of what constitutes professional modelling but sadly it's the one people assume is the mainstream because for many photographers it is. This also gives models the idea that modelling is about fashion or commercial photography and that the ladder is to that goal. And for those who do aspire to it; that is fine and your words have truth.

However most working models I know actually aren't on their way up that ladder. Therefore no matter who I shoot with I am not going up it. My work is 80% with designers, boutiques and artists. It is all paid. It is paid because those of us who do that journeymen backroom stuff or have a niche such as pin-up or alt are good at it and people pay - this is what we do we don't have to test. Photographers who book us will always ask if we do tf but will pay a reasonable fee if they want to shoot someone with experience, relevant wardrobe and shoot input. Since no matter who we shoot with is going to get us up any ladder there should be the recognition that we are actually working at optimum and it is already, or has been, a career.

Oct 09 12 01:23 am  Link  Quote 
Film/TV Producer
d a r i n R O B B
Posts: 44
Austin, Texas, US


MZ PhotoFilm wrote:
from what i read via MM forum from one of their pros, it should go like this

model finds photog = model pays photos
photog finds model = photog pays model
photo model find each other due to same interest = trade off

*if your coming to me saying you love my portfolio and want to shoot with me then why not pay me for my skills...

I agree ... this system works!

Oct 09 12 03:16 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Matthew Belshaw
Posts: 33
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


Didnt read the whole thread. too many people with too much to say and not enough time to break their text up into readable blocks.

I dont like threads like this because they create this "us and them" atmosphere. Models and photographers are both in the same business, both face the same challenges, and neither are infallible.
Oct 09 12 07:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Matt Belshaw wrote:
I dont like threads like this because they create this "us and them" atmosphere.

I'm pretty sure the OP made that distinction clear when she titled the thread "photographers VS models."

However, she's gone on to clarify and the thread should be retitled, "Me vs. Everyone Who Doesn't Agree."

Oct 09 12 07:45 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C
Posts: 7,884
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Matt Belshaw wrote:
Didnt read the whole thread. too many people with too much to say and not enough time to break their text up into readable blocks.

I dont like threads like this because they create this "us and them" atmosphere. Models and photographers are both in the same business, both face the same challenges, and neither are infallible.

The us and them atmosphere in my experience generally only exists in these forums. The forums tend to attract those with an axe to grind on a variety of issues between photographers and models that are not actually representative of the vast majority of collaborations. So you are correct in that it creates an us and them atmosphere which for the most part is not really a true reflection of how things are or should be.

Having said that the differences between the nature of our businesses do call for some understanding. We are not always in the same business or at least the same side of it.

Much of my work was fitting for designers, working with boutiques, and fine art . Photography only accounted for a small part of paid work. The assumption however is often that models sit twiddling their thumbs if they aren't shooting while in fact often we are very busy employed in other areas which photographers rarely see.

There are other differences which need to be appreciated. A photographer for example can get paid several thousand for a shoot while the model may only get a small fee. The model has no copyright generally and often doesn't even see the photos. With photographers - often shooting models only accounts for a small part of their photography work and they have other priorities.

So while we are sometimes in the same business there are differences that mean our business models are radically different. Threads like this could serve to illuminate such differences so that there is a little more understanding but frequently sadly they often end up in further polarisation.

Oct 10 12 05:52 am  Link  Quote 
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