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Photographer
Jason Haven
Posts: 38,283
Washington, District of Columbia, US


For any freelance work based on hourly rates I've ever done, the period of pay starts the second I walk in the door.
Oct 07 12 08:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MoRina
Posts: 5,633
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


It is best to spell things out during the booking process.  To be at a shoot for 4 or 5 hours and to be paid for 1 or 2 is ridiculous.

When you are communicating before the shoot, BEFORE you give your rates, find out:
where the shoot will be, what genre are you shooting, are you doing your own hair and makeup, and how long does the photographer want to shoot for.  The, you give your rate taking into account the time and expense necessary to get there and back. 

After acceptance, you'll want to confirm with a statement such as "OK, I have you on my calendar for the (date) from (start time) to (end time).  This helps make it clear that your clock starts at call time, and ends after the agreed upon number of hours.

If you are doing your own makeup, then either have it done when you walk in, or tell them that you will arrive early in time to do your makeup first.  If there is an MUA, that time should be paid time, and this should be confirmed as well.
Oct 07 12 08:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KModel Photography
Posts: 205
Lower Hutt, Wellington, New Zealand


Many of the artists models I work with slip off their dress almost as soon as they arrive without me asking or even being quite ready. They say its because they prefer the au-natural state and want to get comfortable, but I always thought it was because they wanted the clock to start straight way smile  But its true too that it does help with getting comfortable, after 10-15 min it is normal and relaxed for everyone.

I don't nickel and dime the rates - if I say to expect 3 hours then I pay for 3 hours even though we could be finished in just over 2 hours.  But keep in mind here that I pay artist's rates, not adult performer rates which are much higher.  I have a 2 hour minimum for artist's, so the model knows it will always be worth their while to show.  I never pay for preparation, however can agree to certain expenses in advance.  Artist's models all tell me one thing - they like artist's modeling because the expenses and preparation costs are minimal, usually zero or just bus fare.
Oct 07 12 08:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eowyn-Rose
Posts: 155
Seattle, Washington, US


I use hourly rates as very rarely does someone actually want me for a half or full day.
I always arrive to a shoot camera ready with a basic natural make up look and hair down (I ask before hand if they want curly or straight), and ask if the photographer wants me to elaborate makeup or a more extensive hair style. When I've worked with a MUA I still arrive with basics done and then assume any more elaborate makeup is on their time.
The clock starts at the time we agreed upon unless I'm late. The clock ends once we've wrapped up the shoot. I've never heard of the shoot starting and stopping every time the camera stops clicking. At my day job I'm paid for when I arrive and when I leave. There are times when I'm going over paperwork and times when I'm directly running trials and the pay is the same because it's all related to the work I do. I assume it's the same for modeling. I don't text during the shoot because I'm working; I don't assume my travel is paid unless that's negotiated because I don't get paid to drive to my normal job.
Oct 07 12 08:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Stone Imaging
Posts: 625
Seattle, Washington, US


Lots of interesting answers here.  Using a freelance photographer and model approach, I would say that at a minimum, time should be clocked continuously from the time the photographer starts to when they finish.  Unless a MUA/H is involved, the model is expected to have done her own hair and makeup.

Concerning pay off-camera and travel time..my perception is that the model's ultimate value to the situation is what she brings when she is in front of the lens.  I may be paying $75 to $100/hr during this time for two hours work, and can't justify paying this same rate for travel time or being worked on by a MUA/H.  If the situation calls for it, I will subsidize travel and makeup time at about 1.5 times a normal hourly wage, which rounds out to $15/hr right now for travel and sitting in makeup.  I will also pay for gasoline...and if a bus ticket ever entered into the situation, I would pay for that too.

My basic philosophy is that I WANT the model to walk away with two hours modeling pay free and clear of what it cost her to get to and from the shoot, as well as get ready for it.
Oct 07 12 09:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Apodyopsis
Posts: 6,073
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


David Lumen Photography wrote:
Lots of interesting answers here.  Using a freelance photographer and model approach, I would say that at a minimum, time should be clocked continuously from the time the photographer starts to when they finish.  Unless a MUA/H is involved, the model is expected to have done her own hair and makeup.

Concerning pay off-camera and travel time..my perception is that the model's ultimate value to the situation is what she brings when she is in front of the lens.  I may be paying $75 to $100/hr during this time for two hours work, and can't justify paying this same rate for travel time or being worked on by a MUA/H.  If the situation calls for it, I will subsidize travel and makeup time at about 1.5 times a normal hourly wage, which rounds out to $15/hr right now for travel and sitting in makeup.  I will also pay for gasoline...and if a bus ticket ever entered into the situation, I would pay for that too.

My basic philosophy is that I WANT the model to walk away with two hours modeling pay free and clear of what it cost her to get to and from the shoot, as well as get ready for it.

Ideally, you shouldnt travel for longer than youre shooting unless youre going to work it into your rate somehow.

Ive never said "my rates are 100/hour, so 200 for our 2 hours of shooting and my travel time is another 3 hours so 300 for that, totalling to 500", I just say "I can do up to a half day for 500." If they want a half day, great, if they say "well I only need 2 hours" I just explain that I cant justify the effort it takes to get to and from them for less than my quoted price, so they can still shoot me for only 2 hours if thats their plan, but the price is firm. Im offering more time to make it worth their while. Or they come to me. Or they hook me up with another shoot that will pay me as well. Or I book other work in their town and they host me/put me up in a hotel.

typically, itemizing your rates just turns people off. And frankly its none of their business WHY my rate is what my rate is, they either want to shoot or they dont.

Oct 07 12 11:40 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Eowyn-Rose wrote:
I use hourly rates as very rarely does someone actually want me for a half or full day.
I always arrive to a shoot camera ready with a basic natural make up look and hair down (I ask before hand if they want curly or straight), and ask if the photographer wants me to elaborate makeup or a more extensive hair style. When I've worked with a MUA I still arrive with basics done and then assume any more elaborate makeup is on their time.

if you know a MUA will be there, why would you arrive with make up on?

any mua that is worth something will start by taking it all off to begin with, no one wants to pile on to what you did at home.

personally I think that if a MUA will be present, you arrive with a clean face (no mascare, no nothing)

Oct 08 12 01:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rich Burroughs
Posts: 3,257
Portland, Oregon, US


You'll hear different views on this. I think it's fair for a model to be paid to be in hair and makeup, or the time it takes to do it themselves. It's part of the job. As long as they're not intentionally dragging it out.
Oct 08 12 01:53 am  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 3,920
Burbank, California, US


Kelleth wrote:
From the calltime you are given (unless you're late) to the time the shoot is wrapped (the last photo is taken).

+1

Oct 08 12 02:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rich Burroughs
Posts: 3,257
Portland, Oregon, US


MoRina wrote:
If you are doing your own makeup, then either have it done when you walk in, or tell them that you will arrive early in time to do your makeup first.  If there is an MUA, that time should be paid time, and this should be confirmed as well.

Why should someone have to arrive early to do their makeup? You're saying they shouldn't be paid for that time? If so, that makes very little sense to me. Their preparation is part of the job.

And as for walking in made up, I actually generally prefer models show up and do their makeup after they arrive, because I can have some input into what they do. If they show up all made up then I'm basically stuck with what they decided.

Oct 08 12 02:07 am  Link  Quote 
Model
MoRina
Posts: 5,633
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


Oct 08 12 10:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Marffino
Posts: 1
Orlando, Florida, US


What does the shutter speed have to do with have many frames your camera can shoot????? If if camera shoots 4 frames a second that is all it will do LOL
Oct 08 12 12:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


MoRina wrote:

In my experience, if a photographer wants a certain type of look, they have let me know ahead of time.  I bring my makeup with me to touch up and adjust lip colors, etc. as the shoot goes on.

It is very generous that you are willing to pay a model for her time doing her own makeup, but this is not the norm in the freelance market.  If I showed up and spent 30 or 45 minutes doing my makeup, I would guess that the photographers would start the clock when I was done.  I have had photographers chat for 20 minutes when I arrive, take 20 minutes to go through what I brought and pick out lingerie, and expect to pay me starting when they finally pick up the camera.  By arriving with my makeup done, it signals that I am ready to shoot at the agreed-upon start time.

So when that happens - the photographer takes 40 minutes chatting and picking wardrobe when you are ready from the moment you walked in - how do you tell the photographer that you were on the clock 40 minutes ago? What is a good way of saying that the clock starts when you arrive ready (during initial emails), so that you don't seem greedy or rude?

Oct 08 12 12:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kam-Era Photography
Posts: 1
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada


Everyone is different so discus all the options with the photog or agency.In most cases most are willing to meet half way.I for one wouldn't want to be held responsible for paying for slow make up but id be willing to meet half way for the most part.

Also keep in mind that the longer the shoot takes the more money both photog and model lose so just be fair to each other.
Oct 08 12 12:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8,838
Delphos, Ohio, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
So when that happens - the photographer takes 40 minutes chatting and picking wardrobe when you are ready from the moment you walked in - how do you tell the photographer that you were on the clock 40 minutes ago? What is a good way of saying that the clock starts when you arrive ready (during initial emails), so that you don't seem greedy or rude?

It's something you discuss prior to the shoot taking place. You make your position clear well in advance of the day of the shoot. If you want to be "on the clock" the moment you arrive, then say as much. It's all about how you handle your pre-shoot negotiations. It seems you want to find a way to be honest about what you want without losing potential jobs.

There are always going to be photographers who interpret the all-business, no-nonsense approach as being greedy and/or rude. Maintaining a sweet, friendly image is, in many ways, inconsistent with making demands. Other photographers will welcome that you're up-front about what you want (no hassles, no surprises.) It's a coin toss. I will say, however, that quite a few photographers are going to balk at paying you for every minute you're in studio.

Seems to me, you want to maximize every single penny you bring in without being viewed as a money-grubbing "B". I'm not sure that's possible (again, making demands rarely, if ever, comes across as "friendly".)

I'm not trying to offend you - I realize that you're trying to find a way to get paid what you feel you're due - but the way you're coming across in this thread would make me very reluctant to hire you for paid work.

Oct 08 12 12:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,793
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


IDiivil wrote:

+1

+2

If I have to do my own makeup, that still counts as time.
It only takes me 10-20 mins depending on what the photographer wants me to do. I don't dick around and waste time while I'm doing it either, that's just low.

The majority of the time the photographer is setting up his/her lighting while I'm doing my makeup if they haven't set it up already.

Oct 08 12 12:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachael Bueckert
Posts: 1,121
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada


William Kious wrote:

It's something you discuss prior to the shoot taking place. You make your position clear well in advance of the day of the shoot. If you want to be "on the clock" the moment you arrive, then say as much. It's all about how you handle your pre-shoot negotiations. It seems you want to find a way to be honest about what you want without losing potential jobs.

There are always going to be photographers who interpret the all-business, no-nonsense approach as being greedy and/or rude. Maintaining a sweet, friendly image is, in many ways, inconsistent with making demands. Other photographers will welcome that you're up-front about what you want (no hassles, no surprises.) It's a coin toss. I will say, however, that quite a few photographers are going to balk at paying you for every minute you're in studio.

Seems to me, you want to maximize every single penny you bring in without being viewed as a money-grubbing "B". I'm not sure that's possible (again, making demands rarely, if ever, comes across as "friendly".)

I'm not trying to offend you - I realize that you're trying to find a way to get paid what you feel you're due - but the way you're coming across in this thread would make me very reluctant to hire you for paid work.

Well, in the beginning I was simply asking when the clock usually starts on a photoshoot, since I had no idea how that worked. Then, the majority of people told me it starts when you 'walk in the door'. So taking that, now I'm simply asking how to relay that to a photographer... I hope that I'm not coming across as anything but curious, but of course people will always put their own spin on things. Before starting this thread I was generally getting paid for 1-2 hours of work after spending 3-4 hours or more at a shoot... I just figured that that isn't the way things should go.

If wanting to be treated and paid fairly for my time is a deterant to work with me, then I'd have to say I'd be reluctant to work with you too.

Oct 08 12 12:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8,838
Delphos, Ohio, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
If wanting to be treated and paid fairly for my time is a deterant to work with me, then I'd have to say I'd be reluctant to work with you too.

It's just the way certain questions have been posed... and we all bring our own personal experiences into the mix. I've paid models who have spent as much time on their cell phones as they have in front of the lens.

In reality, in the freelance world, it's not always easy to strike a balance that's fair and equitable to both parties. Issues of professionalism often crop up on BOTH sides. If you are at the shoot for four hours - doing things that are productive and part of the process - then you should be paid for those four hours. The issue arises when people want paid for things that really aren't part of the process. Again, it's all part of the negotiations.

Here are a few key issues that have been raised in this thread so far (and this is just my opinion):

- Should a model be paid for travel time? I say no (especially if the photographer is already covering expenses.)

- Should you be paid for your time in makeup? This one is a little tougher to answer. If you're dealing with a commercial shoot, yes. If it's freelance work, I guess it depends on whether or not you are doing your own makeup. If an MUA is involved, I say no (I'm already paying the MUA, so why would should I pay you just for sitting there?) I wouldn't object to paying a model for makeup time if she's using her own supplies and can complete the look in a reasonable amount of time.

- Should a model be paid while a photographer is setting up? Again, this one is a little slippery for me. The flake rate is so high, that many photographers don't want to set up until the model actually arrives. Is that your fault? Of course not. Then again, if you're busy doing your makeup - and it's a reasonable time frame - then I wouldn't object to paying (so long as you're doing something constructive.)

- Should a model be paid while selecting wardrobe? That takes time out of the shoot for both parties, so I say no. It's something that should be discussed in advance, anyway.

"Fair" is a very subjective term...

Oct 08 12 02:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Ulorin Vex
Posts: 35
Los Angeles, California, US


That's not normal.. in my experience the clock starts at call time and ends when shooting is finished.

Regarding makeup time, the way it works for me is if there is a seperate hair/makeup team involved then that time where I am in the chair is paid for.

However, I am often asked to do my own styling for shoots booked through MM. In that case I always come to the shoot with the first look ready to shoot (mostly because I feel like many of the jobs I book through MM are on a limited budget and I like to try to help them make the most of their booked time, it would not be unreasonable for me not to do this though). Any changes to hair/makeup I am asked to make subsequently are on paid-for time.

It is best to clarify all these sorts of details beforehand.

For comparison, I help run a studio and we occasionally get clients asking if they can come into the studio an hour before the time they have paid for in order to do hair/makeup.. the answer of course is no!
Oct 08 12 03:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tropical Photography
Posts: 35,256
Sarasota, Florida, US


My view is if there is an MUA involved, then no, I'm not paying for that time.. If the model is doing the make up, then I expect them to come in with the first look on.. We may need to tweak, but basically should be ready to go.. 

If I say the shoot time is 3, I really expect the model to be there at least 10 mins early to layout wardrobe, if she's providing, so the flow of the shoot runs smooth.. I'll generally be ready and then we're on the clock.. Once the clock starts, it doesn't stop..

Now, if I find the model is spending time on the phone or texting and it's not while I'm doing a light change or we're traveling between locations, I may very well doc pay or request an extension of time.. But realistically the phone should be off..
Oct 08 12 03:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
But in some of the shoots I've been paid for, whenever the shooting stops for any reason, the time stops.

Are you saying that the shoot has started but the photographer is actually stopping the time as if you were being clocked out for a break? And then starts it back up once he begins shooting again?

Because, if that's the case, it's laughably absurd...and cheap...and unprofessional.

We can argue when the time should start (before or after makeup application, etc). But once it does start...it doesn't stop because the photographer needs to rearrange lights, reapply makeup...or whatever. This isn't 2 hours of NFL time where the clock stops for penalties. What if you have to use the restroom? Does he make you punch out?

I'm actually laughing out loud. Maybe the photographer used to be a manager at McDonalds.

Oct 08 12 03:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Stone Imaging
Posts: 625
Seattle, Washington, US


Rachael Bueckert wrote:
So when that happens - the photographer takes 40 minutes chatting and picking wardrobe when you are ready from the moment you walked in - how do you tell the photographer that you were on the clock 40 minutes ago? What is a good way of saying that the clock starts when you arrive ready (during initial emails), so that you don't seem greedy or rude?
William Kious wrote:
I'm not trying to offend you - I realize that you're trying to find a way to get paid what you feel you're due - but the way you're coming across in this thread would make me very reluctant to hire you for paid work.
Rachael Bueckert wrote:
Well, in the beginning I was simply asking when the clock usually starts on a photoshoot, since I had no idea how that worked. Then, the majority of people told me it starts when you 'walk in the door'. So taking that, now I'm simply asking how to relay that to a photographer... I hope that I'm not coming across as anything but curious, but of course people will always put their own spin on things. Before starting this thread I was generally getting paid for 1-2 hours of work after spending 3-4 hours or more at a shoot... I just figured that that isn't the way things should go.

If wanting to be treated and paid fairly for my time is a deterant to work with me, then I'd have to say I'd be reluctant to work with you too.

Everyone wants to be treated fairly and your curiosity is common among many.

Once a start and stop time are agreed upon before the shoot, you should let the photographer know that you have commitments after the shoot, and you need to leave at the stop time...and confirm that you will be there a few minutes before the start time.  (That "commitment" could be to yourself, and you should politely decline any questions about the commitment.)

When start time rolls around...say you are ready.  When stop time arrives...politely say you need to go.  You can offer to squeeze in another 5 or  ten minutes to wrap up a look to keep the good will going...but you need to stop so you can keep your follow-on commitment.

When it comes to paying you for pre-shoot makeup time...especially if a MUA is involved...a number of posters say you should be paid for this.  No one has yet to say how much...except for me in a previous post.  I can tell you that if a model wanted her modeling rate for this time...it would kill the deal.  However, I can see offering a nominal amount for her time...which I put at 1.5 times a normal hourly rate for general employment.

What I have done thus far is explain that I don't provide images to models for paid shoots...as that is the purpose of TF.  I also explain that a MUA's work will make a much better image, and I will offer a few portworthy images as a tradeoff for not paying for the time with the MUA.  So far this has worked, but I don't use an MUA very often.

Oct 08 12 04:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Libertad Green
Posts: 477
Los Angeles, California, US


For every shoot I can think of that I've done that was paid by the hour, it started with the calltime, and ended when the work was done.
Oct 08 12 04:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4,667
Houston, Texas, US


I've seen thread like this before. I don't get why people do that. 

I bill from the time I arrive to the shoot until the time I leave. If extensive travel is involved, I may charge a travel day plus expenses.   

I would think most photographers in business would bill similarly.  I don't see how they can get away from not paying you for the time they ask you to be there.  It's BS to me.

I don't pay my assistants only for the time we're setting up or striking shots.. I pay them from the time they get to my office and stop at the time they leave.  I pay for their lunch and any other expenses that they may occur while working with me.

If I asked a model to shoot for pay and be at the studio say from 8AM until 12PM, I'd pay her for the full 4 hours. 

Not paying a model while they apply makeup makes no more sense than the photographer only charging their clients for the time they're taking photo,  not charging while the lights are setup or directions are being given to the subjects..

Models are hired for an agree upon time.   They aren't able to make any money modeling for anyone else.  They are owed the money.

OP: You might give them, not an minimum hourly time but a flat rate for say 2 hours and a flat rate for 4 hours.   

Example of billing $100/hr

Quarter day rate   $200   Fee 
Half day rate         $400   Fee   
Full day rate.         $750* Fee   (maybe you give them a small
                                                 discount for 8 or more hours.  It's up to you.) 

Rates based on agree upon time.

Travel or other related expenses may be applied in addition and will be agreed in writing prior to booking time.
..................................................................................................................
I use terminology like this on my bids all the time.
I've never had anyone balk at it. 
At least not anyone who is ACTUALLY interested in hiring me.
Oct 08 12 05:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
g2-new photographics
Posts: 1,928
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Clock starts when the model steps onto the seamless.

smile
Oct 08 12 05:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Ulorin Vex
Posts: 35
Los Angeles, California, US


KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
Not paying a model while they apply makeup makes no more sense than the photographer only charging their clients for the time they're taking photo,  not charging while the lights are setup or directions are being given to the subjects..

Models are hired for an agree upon time.   They aren't able to make any money modeling for anyone else.  They are owed the money.

Exactly. I am genuinely surprised at the number of responses on this thread saying time in the makeup chair shouldn't be paid for. I have never experienced that in all my years modelling; that includes everything from agency advertising work to the smallest freelance non-commercial shoot.

Oct 08 12 06:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8,838
Delphos, Ohio, US


KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
If I asked a model to shoot for pay and be at the studio say from 8AM until 12PM, I'd pay her for the full 4 hours.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. In my mind, that becomes a 1/4 day rate and is all-inclusive of whatever happens in that 4 hours. The issue at hand is when people choose to pay hourly (or want paid hourly.)

KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
Not paying a model while they apply makeup makes no more sense than the photographer only charging their clients for the time they're taking photo,  not charging while the lights are setup or directions are being given to the subjects..

You're including that time in your calculations, I'm guessing. If I am paying the model by the hour (and paying an MUA by the hour), why should the model be paid for sitting in a chair? When a given model quotes $100/hour, and it takes an hour to complete hair and makeup, she's making $100 for sitting there and chatting with the MUA.

Another issue... are you going to pay the model for the additional hour it takes her to get to your studio? How about paying her for the drive home?

Again, the quibbles seem to arise when we pit hourly pay versus an agreed upon "block" of time. It's hourly versus salary, really. IMHO, go with a salary model and set a specific time frame. It avoids all hair splitting.

Oct 08 12 07:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orcatek Photography
Posts: 1,686
Tempe, Arizona, US


If you are to show up camera ready, then the clock starts when you are camera ready.   If hair/make-up is being provided, then time starts when you arrive on set ready to work.  Working includes having your hair and make-up done.

Agree ahead.
Oct 08 12 07:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Art of the nude wrote:
You weren't clear at first.  If the shoot hasn't started because YOU aren't ready, there's some basis for discussion.  If it's past the agreed time and THEY aren't ready, you should be paid.  I did have one model very kindly not charge when I was an hour late, but there was 20 inches of snow the night before and getting to the site 120 miles away was a bit of a challenge.  She deferred my time, and we got the full time and rate.

If I did my makeup before arriving to the shoot location, it wouldn't look as ideal. So I tend to do makeup on set, not before.

Just like when I do pay a photographer, I'm not just paying for the time the shoot takes, but also the post work.

Same deal.

Oct 08 12 07:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JAE
Posts: 2,083
West Chester, Pennsylvania, US


I start the clock when the model walks in the door.  I think anything other then that should be discussed ahead of time.
Oct 08 12 07:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


JAE Photography PA wrote:
I start the clock when the model walks in the door.  I think anything other then that should be discussed ahead of time.

+1

Oct 08 12 07:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,267
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Tropical Photography wrote:
My view is if there is an MUA involved, then no, I'm not paying for that time.. If the model is doing the make up, then I expect them to come in with the first look on.. We may need to tweak, but basically should be ready to go..

What if the model has to use public transit for 1+ hour to get to the shoot? The makeup might have smudged.

Oct 08 12 07:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Lizette
Posts: 9
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


KModel Photography wrote:
Many of the artists models I work with slip off their dress almost as soon as they arrive without me asking or even being quite ready. They say its because they prefer the au-natural state and want to get comfortable, but I always thought it was because they wanted the clock to start straight way smile  But its true too that it does help with getting comfortable, after 10-15 min it is normal and relaxed for everyone.

Hi! Just to jump in, this could also be because it needs some time for the clothing marks to lift off the skin. smile I've been to some shoots(bikini / nude) where the model starts taking off their clothes just about when the photographer is ready but then realise they still have to wait some more time because the bra or panties left some marks / lines on the skin. smile

With regards the topic, I'd say from what the agreed time is up to the end of the shoot. Otherwise, bigger projects also pay per project (commercials, print ads) but they have a set time.  For example, shoot is 8AM - 6PM. If it finishes early, you still get paid the same as the offer is for the entire project. If it gets extended, I know a lot would not bother to charge extra as in this case as it's part of a client-relationship that you want keep a positive relationship and good vibes. Only in extreme cases such as having 3-hour extension to the agreed end then model(s) or their agent(s) ask for more.

Oct 08 12 10:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Lizette
Posts: 9
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Also, to add, if it's charged per hour, makeup time should be included.

Hair and make-up time varies a lot. What if it was a high fashion look that takes 3 hours to do hair and make-up? It's not fair that the model doesn't get paid for her time. After all, is that time not part of the job itself? Is it not something that required to be done for the layout? Even if it takes less time, the ideology is the same. Also, I would never recommend a model coming in with her make-up ready as wear and tear during travel time could affect the quality and the fact a lot of photographers / artistic directors would want to have their say for the make-up look.

Travel always varies. If hourly, I think travel time should not be charged as an hourly rate but something on top on a fair rate - bus / cab / train transport value or gas used. This is to say you travelled far. As I said earlier, some clients pay one entire price per project. With this, I would not charge extra for travel as it should be included in the entire project fee. They don't want to be hassled with other plus-plus and just negotiate on one price as they don't want to know et cetera details.
Oct 08 12 10:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C
Posts: 7,884
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Alivia Autumn wrote:
You certainly shouldn't be paid for makeup and styling, especially if it takes you hours, a pro MUA could have your full face done in 15-20 mins, same goes for hair.  As a fellow model, I think what's fair would be from the moment you start shooting until the shoot is finished.  If the photographer is taking forever to set up, sure I guess you could try to justify being paid.

I have had pro MUA's take two hours; sometimes longer. There is no question of not being paid for this time in any other theatre of modelling eg for a fashion show or for a shoot in a fashion house for catalogue etc. So generally I expect photographers to understand this too and they do - I never had anyone suggest not paying me for that time in preparation. Frequently the photographer will be scouting location setting up equipment or simply doing another job while that is happening but you get paid from when you arrive at the agreed time. Though I usually do a day rate for photographers rather than an hour rate and find this means they don't have to worry about it.

One time I was hours with a hair stylist/MUA  London fashion week who had just come back from an after party and had been up all night. He wasn't very well a few times so had to go off now and again smile The prep thus took several hours for me and other models and other stylists then the director come in and says...no no ...'more bed head for all of them' - so then took ages again. Absolutely no question of me not getting paid for that time and certainly no suggestion I arrive already made up or do it myself!

Of course if there is no MUA I shall arrive how the photographer has asked to the best of my ability - so that's different.

Oct 09 12 03:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wolfy4u
Posts: 1,080
Grand Junction, Colorado, US


If a shoot is client based, and both the model and photographer are being paid, then I think the model should be paid starting as soon as she walks in the room, and some travel money if it's a long distance to the shoot.
However, if it's a shoot with no income, I've found that the models I've worked with understand that I have limited resources and that both of us contribute extra time to get ready, so they've all allowed me to pay from the time of the first image. Good models tend to earn four times per hour what I used to earn, so they walk home with a substantial amount of money in their pockets. Most understand that the few extra minutes that it takes to get ready to shoot probably doesn't impair their income for the day.
In exchange, I'm never picky about their makeup or hair, and I'm generous with giving even paid models photos from the shoot.
Oct 09 12 03:50 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Eliza C
Posts: 7,884
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom


Wolfy4u wrote:
If a shoot is client based, and both the model and photographer are being paid, then I think the model should be paid starting as soon as she walks in the room, and some travel money if it's a long distance to the shoot.
However, if it's a shoot with no income, I've found that the models I've worked with understand that I have limited resources and that both of us contribute extra time to get ready, so they've all allowed me to pay from the time of the first image. Good models tend to earn four times per hour what I used to earn, so they walk home with a substantial amount of money in their pockets. Most understand that the few extra minutes that it takes to get ready to shoot probably doesn't impair their income for the day.
In exchange, I'm never picky about their makeup or hair, and I'm generous with giving even paid models photos from the shoot.

The problem is when pro MUA and stylists are involved it never takes a few minutes and often there are complete changes in styling. In fact I have spent up to seven hours being styled during the day including between shoots and maybe only two hours being shot or for runway just minutes actually being seen. Then even when ready often the MUA/hair stylist then has another model or two to do before the shoot/show can commence so once again that is time I expect to be paid for.
Then you have sometimes crazy make-up and special effects latex stuff or body painting etc which can take even longer though mercifully I have only had that once or twice though have heard horror stories from models who have been movie extras etc. Often for example all day in make-up then they don't get used for the shooting time and they may do this all week and shoot for ten minutes. Of course they get paid.

Having said that it is why I generally with photographers quote a day (project) rate rather than an hour rate so the issue doesn't arise.

Oct 09 12 04:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


While for some clients I quote half and day rates (especially when travelling as it's easier to bill them that way), unless it's a 'big' shoot with Cecil B deMille production values (and who here routinely does those?), then hourly-rates for models and MUAs are fine - for the 'creatives', the clock starts when they arrive on location - that's at the studio ready to start work (BTW, hair and make-up counts as 'work' for both model and MUA - it's not like the model can nip out for a coffee-break at the local Starbucks halfway through, is it?) or at the outdoor location if they travel independently.

If we travel as a group in the same vehicle, the clock starts when they arrive at the rendezvous.

For TFP it's pretty irrelevant for the model, but I usually pay MUAs even for 'model-TFP' shootings as you get a better class of artist.

For studio, clock stops when the cameras are put down. On location, when we disperse.

There are variables to this, especially on multi-day shoots or when on location a meal is being provided - I might spring for a meal at the end of a long shoot, but that's not covered in the hourly rates.
Oct 09 12 04:09 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jessie Shannon
Posts: 2,004
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


AJScalzitti wrote:
Well the norm is day and 1/2 day rates, per hour is not.  As for when, it's whatever the call time is for.  Obviously if you are a hour early and sitting in the waiting room texting you should not get paid, just like a day job.  If the photographer is a hour over fixing lights then you would get paid, just like a day job.

Now around MM it's not uncommon for new photographer or even models to think "when shooting starts" so communications and education are key.  Things around here are never the norm.

+1 This exactly

Oct 09 12 05:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mickle Design Werks
Posts: 5,949
Washington, District of Columbia, US


When working with Models, I provide guidelines for this in the first contact with them.

Generally for my personal shoots if I'm paying for a Model, the time begins when they are shoot ready. I provide detailed instruction on the looks I want well in advance of the shoot so they know what I'm looking for and can plan accordingly.  I prefer that the Model arrive shoot ready with the need to do minor touch ups. If they need to do make-up then I will make it clear that time is not included.

I think it's important that Photographer plan for this and communicate clearly with the Model ahead of time so that there is no misunderstanding about what is to be expected regarding styling for the shoot.

Model can help avoid this situation as well by asking about styling preferences and asking if they should arrive shoot ready or do the make-up at the shoot location. Also let the Photographer know how long it takes to do your make-up and hair. If you choose to count this against the Photographer's booking time then it is the Model's responsibility to let then know this ahead of time so that there are no surprises and that they can plan accordingly.

The overall solution to avoid this development to settle on an overall rate for the shoot and avoid hourly charges all together. That way a reasonable styling time can be incorporated into the shoot and a fair rate can be negotiated at the beginning of the shoot.
Oct 09 12 05:25 am  Link  Quote 
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