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Forums > General Industry > Another Flake Thread WOO! Search   Reply
Model
Matthew Belshaw
Posts: 33
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


Actually this is not so much a "hey arent flakes annoying" thread as a question.

I read lots of threads about it and know its a "Hot button" but i has experience with a flake for the first time today and wanted to as a serious question.

Do models / Photographers think that they are less obliged to respect an agreement for a TF shoot than a paid one?

the reason i ask, is that the attitude of the Model who flaked on me today was basically to apologise, and then when she realised i was annoyed, she basically insulted me and then said "so what, it's not like you were paying me"

As far as this incident goes, i wont be crying into my cereal about it, but i was just wondering if TF flakes were more common than paid ones. I realise that some people way deem that a dumb question but i'm interested to hear what people have to say.
Oct 09 12 11:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,554
Salem, Oregon, US


i've had 100% success when paying the traveling nude models.
Oct 09 12 11:07 am  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,860
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


There's more of an incentive to show up if you're offering pay, but I'm sure there will still be some people who are flakey and will cancel even on a paid shoot.

Both models and photographers alike.
Oct 09 12 11:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GeorgeMann
Posts: 1,148
Orange, California, US


twoharts wrote:
i've had 100% success when paying the traveling nude models.

Basically the same for me. I have only had one traveling nude model flake on me since I have been here, and I think now, it was more of a misunderstanding in communication than a flake.

Oct 09 12 11:14 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 610
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


I have never had a flake.  I am picky on who I choose to work with.  But I would assume yes flakes would happen on TF often because there's nothing to lose, and everything to gain like your time, if you had something arguably "more important" come up.

When in a paid shoot, both parties want something.  The one paying wants the services, and the other wants the compensation.

The fact that the photographer said that to you shows they lack in professionalism and consideration for others.
Oct 09 12 11:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 8,355
Olney, Maryland, US


Matt Belshaw wrote:
the reason i ask, is that the attitude of the Model who flaked on me today was basically to apologise, and then when she realised i was annoyed, she basically insulted me and then said "so what, it's not like you were paying me"

It doesn't occur to flakes that you might have laid out some cash for expenses.

Oct 09 12 11:14 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Matthew Belshaw
Posts: 33
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


Alivia Autumn wrote:
I have never had a flake.  I am picky on who I choose to work with.  But I would assume yes flakes would happen on TF often because there's nothing to lose, and everything to gain like your time, if you had something arguably "more important" come up.

When in a paid shoot, both parties want something.  The one paying wants the services, and the other wants the compensation.

The fact that the photographer said that to you shows they lack in professionalism and consideration for others.

That's it exactly. I was actually the photographer in this case, it was a model who flaked on me, but i leave the country for Saudi first thing in the morning, so this is my last night, and i cancelled my plans to get this shoot done. For a moment i was second guessing myself for being annoyed, like maybe its not that big of a deal, but you are right, it does show lack of professionalism and consideration for others.

Oct 09 12 11:20 am  Link  Quote 
Model
MoRina
Posts: 5,797
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


I think if both parties feel that what they are getting out of the shoot is worthwhile, they will show up. For some people that's money, for some it is pictures, for some it is attention and some it is practice/experience.

The hard part is figuring out what the motivation is and how strong that motivation is.
Oct 09 12 11:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,495
San Diego, California, US


Matt Belshaw wrote:
the reason i ask, is that the attitude of the Model who flaked on me today was basically to apologise, and then when she realised i was annoyed, she basically insulted me and then said "so what, it's not like you were paying me"

That's lame as fuck. That's like saying "My word doesn't mean shit unless
I'm getting paid."

Oct 09 12 11:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,692
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


I was surprised to read in one long-running thread a year or so ago, that many feel it's perfectly fine to cancel a shoot commitment in favor of a better one, especially if it's trade for pay.

In my mind, if you plan to walk away from a commitment the second something else sounds better, then it's not really a commitment is it?  In my opinion, if you are not truly committed to a shoot, regardless of compensation, then that should be clearly stated at booking.

Even a TF shoot can mean a lot of planning, and possibly even costs like a studio rental.  It's simply bad form to just flake.
Oct 09 12 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Matthew Belshaw
Posts: 33
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


Abbitt Photography wrote:
I was surprised to read in one long-running thread a year or so ago, that many feel it's perfectly fine to cancel a shoot commitment in favor of a better one, especially if it's trade for pay.

In my mind, if you plan to walk away from a commitment the second something else sounds better, then it's not really a commitment is it?  In my opinion, if you are not truly committed to a shoot, regardless of compensation, then that should be clearly stated at booking.

Even a TF shoot can mean a lot of planning, and possibly even costs like a studio rental.  It's simply bad form to just flake.

agreed.

A booking is a booking no matter what the compensation. If however a person were to cancel on me because the opportunity had come up for something better and it was a "now or never" thing, i wouldnt mind rearranging. But to Flake out and then give me attitude because i got annoyed about it... Seems very 21st century typical. These days people would rather argue and throw insults than just take ownership of their behaviour and say "you know what, im sorry, its my fault"

Oct 09 12 11:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


Matt Belshaw wrote:
the reason i ask, is that the attitude of the Model who flaked on me today was basically to apologise, and then when she realised i was annoyed, she basically insulted me and then said "so what, it's not like you were paying me"

I'd give her a quick explanation that I had set aside time in my schedule for her. I'd have asked her if she'd have been irritated if she'd blocked out that time, sat there waiting, only to have me not bother showing up.

If she says she would have been bothered, I'd ask why that couldn't hold for me, too.

If she says she wouldn't have been bothered, I'd have told her she was lying about that "total commitment to modeling" she had posted in her profile and she might consider trying a new hobby.


I've had that very conversation with a model who flaked on me and then got huffy because I didn't share her attitude that the flake was no big deal.

Oct 09 12 11:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,536
Portland, Oregon, US


Matt Belshaw wrote:
Do models / Photographers think that they are less obliged to respect an agreement for a TF shoot than a paid one?

Some random thoughts:

...  An obligation is an obligation, regardless of the compensation (IMO).
...  People nowadays have the tendency to blame others for their faults.
...  If someone breaks a promise to me, I immediately lose interest.  I don't need to
     know why someone broke a promise.  If it was important to me, that person would
     probably not get a second chance.

Strictly speaking, the opposite of "Always" is not really "Never"; the opposite of "Always" is "Sometimes".  Once you break a promise, you become someone who doesn't always meet their obligations.

Oct 09 12 12:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Lynn Elizabeth
Posts: 1,336
Coral Springs, Florida, US


Paid or not when there is an agreement on a schedule, that's the schedule. I do understand that sometimes shit happens and schedules are interrupted by unforeseen events. But that's no excuse to get snippy. Getting an attitude is unprofessional and makes the "something came up" seem dishonest.
Oct 09 12 12:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Matthew Belshaw
Posts: 33
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


Lynn Elizabeth wrote:
Paid or not when there is an agreement on a schedule, that's the schedule. I do understand that sometimes shit happens and schedules are interrupted by unforeseen events. But that's no excuse to get snippy. Getting an attitude is unprofessional and makes the "something came up" seem dishonest.

Indeed. You can smell BS from a mile away when the person flaking immediately jumps on the defensive when they think you dont believe them or are annoyed. Things happen that are beyond our control. inevitably when they do happen someone is going to be put out by it. I guess i'm still a bit naive at times in thinking nobody would be stupid enough to book a shoot knowing they wouldnt be able to, or didnt want to make it

Oct 09 12 12:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FEN RIR Photo
Posts: 719
Westminster, Colorado, US


I've even had the Sun flake out on me during landscaping shoots, it happens to us all!!
Oct 09 12 01:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,335
New York, New York, US


Matt Belshaw wrote:
Actually this is not so much a "hey arent flakes annoying" thread as a question.

I read lots of threads about it and know its a "Hot button" but i has experience with a flake for the first time today and wanted to as a serious question.

Do models / Photographers think that they are less obliged to respect an agreement for a TF shoot than a paid one?

the reason i ask, is that the attitude of the Model who flaked on me today was basically to apologise, and then when she realised i was annoyed, she basically insulted me and then said "so what, it's not like you were paying me"

As far as this incident goes, i wont be crying into my cereal about it, but i was just wondering if TF flakes were more common than paid ones. I realise that some people way deem that a dumb question but i'm interested to hear what people have to say.

Human nature will provide your answer! The lack of information about the industry among amateurs translates to a lack of discipline and respect toward others. This applies to models as well as Photographers.

Eventually, "flakes" get pushed out of the industry, but it is the damage they leave in their wake as they make that journey that gives rise to these fun threads.

Someone once said that success is determined by a disparate proportion between work and luck.

As applied to modeling, luck would be the looks, and work would be the discipline that easily translates to professionalism, even amongst hobbyist artists.

Don't worry about the flakes. Move on and keep shooting.

Oct 09 12 01:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,335
New York, New York, US


Erik Ballew wrote:
I've even had the Sun flake out on me during landscaping shoots, it happens to us all!!

I don't think you and the Sun had any agreements.

In the big scheme of things, the Sun has been flaked on many more times by photographers than the other way around.

Oct 09 12 01:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Ivanafox
Posts: 979
Healesville, Victoria, Australia


Matt Belshaw wrote:
Do models / Photographers think that they are less obliged to respect an agreement for a TF shoot than a paid one?

In my opinion and experience the answer to that is "yes" but it's a people thing, not a "model" thing. People seem to not value anything that hasn't had a value placed on it.

It non-modelling world I have tried to give countless things away- furniture, playswings, trampoline, fridge, exercise equipment, a car and in every case I've had people wanting it but 3 months later when none of them have come to get it (I even offered to deliver some of those items) I've put it up for sale, guess what? yep sold within the week.

Same for doing things for people- I've helped people out a ton of times, and yep they get snotty the one time when I can't drop everything and help them out.

Oct 09 12 02:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dannielle Levan
Posts: 12,857
New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada


Matt Belshaw wrote:
Actually this is not so much a "hey arent flakes annoying" thread as a question.

I read lots of threads about it and know its a "Hot button" but i has experience with a flake for the first time today and wanted to as a serious question.

Do models / Photographers think that they are less obliged to respect an agreement for a TF shoot than a paid one?

the reason i ask, is that the attitude of the Model who flaked on me today was basically to apologise, and then when she realised i was annoyed, she basically insulted me and then said "so what, it's not like you were paying me"

As far as this incident goes, i wont be crying into my cereal about it, but i was just wondering if TF flakes were more common than paid ones. I realise that some people way deem that a dumb question but i'm interested to hear what people have to say.

No. Every job gets my full commitment. But there is a general understanding that paid jobs take precedence over TF. TF can always be rescheduled, but people need to pay the bills too.
It's a bit unprofessional not to turn up just because it's a TF though...

Oct 09 12 03:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Stanley L Moore
Posts: 1,679
Houston, Texas, US


NicoleNudes wrote:
There's more of an incentive to show up if you're offering pay, but I'm sure there will still be some people who are flakey and will cancel even on a paid shoot.

Both models and photographers alike.

Quite right. I have had a model call me saying he was on his way to ny shoot (paid at his requested rates) but was caught in traffic and would be a little late....... No follow up call,no answer to texts or ca;;s. No nothinkg. I just hope he did not get hurt in a car wreckk.

I had a travelling model from out of state who could not get a stand by flight and camncelled. And worst of a;; O hd a model who was getting $500 + gas money for a shoot call 4 times and reschedule. Fianlly I put my foot down and since thaen he has always shown up.

Since I pay I get litttle flackiness but there are some instances. For a TF shoot I would not make plans for ehrt shoot until the model showed up. Last week a TF session got ccancelled because the model decided not to come to Houston at the last minute. These tings happen. Best to grin and bear it.

Oct 09 12 04:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DG at studio47
Posts: 2,365
East Ridge, Tennessee, US


According to archeologists, millions of years ago there was a traditional social idea called, "my word is my bond". unfortunately,the idea became extinct shortly after all the dinosaurs disappeared. current thinking is that the dinosaurs took it with them when they boarded the alien ark that landed on earth.
Oct 09 12 04:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Seismic Images
Posts: 522
Morisset, New South Wales, Australia


Erik Ballew wrote:
I've even had the Sun flake out on me during landscaping shoots, it happens to us all!!

Lmao.

Oct 09 12 04:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
robert b mitchell
Posts: 1,423
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada


I screen my TFs alot more than before, but you still get burned with them and even the occasional payed. Checking out  a "model's" latest pics helps to recognize if they are genuinely interested or just "toying" with you and are not really serious.
Oct 09 12 04:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Gemma Cullen
Posts: 57
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


I think it's really unprofessional to flake, whether you doing TF or paid, makes no difference, unless there is a really good reason you can not attend a shoot. I always turn up for my shoots as I am always looking forward to them. If you have agreed to shoot with Somme one models and photographers should stick to their agreement. Matthew if you want to shoot with me when you get back from Dubai, let me know, as I will turn up smile
Oct 09 12 04:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Engage Photography
Posts: 30
Denver, Colorado, US


I've wondered this same question since all of my shoots have been tfcd. Now that I've shot more it's much easier to spot the signs of a flake. I think the models seeking pay that travel etc are less likely to cancel because they are committed and treat this as a career or it is their career. If a model takes days between responses that's my guarantee red flag that they're gonna cancel or no show.
Oct 09 12 04:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Gaffney
Posts: 48
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Flakes are flakes, that is their operational approach to life.  I did, however, learn a valuable lesson by sending a message once to a model that "no showed".  As I became quite miffed at losing out on a shoot that required quite a bit of preparation, I shot off a message that was less than forgiving.  Approximately a week later, she sent me a message back of apology stating that she "found herself essentially homeless after a nasty breakup... (and she) had no way to contact me".  Oops.  Either this was true, or a wonderfully crafted tool to upset the ego- nonetheless, quite effective.  smile
Oct 09 12 05:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DavidV
Posts: 40
Cambridge, Ontario, Canada


Engage Photography wrote:
If a model takes days between responses that's my guarantee red flag that they're gonna cancel or no show.

Yep

Oct 09 12 08:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Matthew Belshaw
Posts: 33
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


Gemma Cullen wrote:
I think it's really unprofessional to flake, whether you doing TF or paid, makes no difference, unless there is a really good reason you can not attend a shoot. I always turn up for my shoots as I am always looking forward to them. If you have agreed to shoot with Somme one models and photographers should stick to their agreement. Matthew if you want to shoot with me when you get back from Dubai, let me know, as I will turn up smile

Thanks Gemma, ill definitely be in touch. smile

Oct 10 12 01:17 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Matthew Belshaw
Posts: 33
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


Michael Gaffney wrote:
Flakes are flakes, that is their operational approach to life.  I did, however, learn a valuable lesson by sending a message once to a model that "no showed".  As I became quite miffed at losing out on a shoot that required quite a bit of preparation, I shot off a message that was less than forgiving.  Approximately a week later, she sent me a message back of apology stating that she "found herself essentially homeless after a nasty breakup... (and she) had no way to contact me".  Oops.  Either this was true, or a wonderfully crafted tool to upset the ego- nonetheless, quite effective.  smile

Indeed. But whether or not her story was genuine is unimportant. You weren't to know what had happened and whilst I'm sure you felt guilty about it, based on the nature of this industry, you can't be blamed for coming to that conclusion, and the fact is, for whatever reason, you made time, made arrangements etc etc, and she didn't show. Perhaps blacklisting her in this case is unnecessary, but I don't think you have any reason to feel bad.

Tragedies happen and all that, but as many people have said, if you were doing a 9-5 job and you were forced to take time off because of unforeseen circumstances, you would still call your boss and tell them you weren't coming as soon as you knew.

Oct 10 12 01:25 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Miroslava Svoboda
Posts: 555
Seattle, Washington, US


I get so invested into my TF work that flaking even if I am running a triple digit fever is not an option. I put my money into it buying wardrobe, accessories, make up and my time too like research and planning. Perhaps getting a model more involved in the process can be helpful.
Oct 10 12 01:27 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Princess Dasha
Posts: 57
Malmö, Skåne, Sweden


I think it all comes down to manners. Time is money so TF* is also money.
I'd respect someone's time regardless if it's a trade shoot or a paid shoot.

I'm sorry about your experience, hope it doesn't discourage you! smile
Oct 10 12 03:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L Bass
Posts: 957
Nacogdoches, Texas, US


I haven't had a model flake on me yet (knock on wood), but based on what I have heard through friends and MM forums... The 'pros' that are dedicated to their craft and serious about their work, are the best bet for reliability. The 'newbies'... it's a crap-shoot.

I sometimes mentor and work with newbie models that have little to no experience. Aside from posing and attitude, the most important thing I try to instill in them is.... 'Be dependable!'
Oct 10 12 04:12 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Artemis Bare
Posts: 2,133
Ayase, Kanagawa, Japan


twoharts wrote:
i've had 100% success when paying the traveling nude models.

Everyone loves a travelling naked girl!!!

Oct 10 12 04:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Woodson Photography
Posts: 2,644
Savannah, Georgia, US


Paying a Model doesn't neccessarily guarantee that they will not flake the shoot.  When I first started doing glamour photography, I offered pay to help me get my port started.  Two showed and two didn't.

I no longer pay models.  All of my work is TF.  The flake rate is about one out of eight now.

Traveling paid models don't generally flake paid shoots simply because this is how they make their living.  And, as such, they have a reputation to protect.
Oct 10 12 05:29 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Lola Magdalene Scott
Posts: 79
Lexington, Kentucky, US


Eden Macieira wrote:
I get so invested into my TF work that flaking even if I am running a triple digit fever is not an option. I put my money into it buying wardrobe, accessories, make up and my time too like research and planning. Perhaps getting a model more involved in the process can be helpful.

This!!..I take every "job" seriously...It is a sign of respect and maturity..if something happened that i couldn't make it, unless I was on life support..they would get a phone call asap...No excuse to not show and not give a reason why...everyone has something invested.

Oct 10 12 05:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Pete Georges
Posts: 48
Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada


Now, if Grandma would stop dying ...............
Oct 10 12 05:52 am  Link  Quote 
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