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Photographer
patrick otoole
Posts: 2
Olyphant, Pennsylvania, US


Hi All.
So the age old topic....

So I'm setting up a shoot...and I contact a newby model on MM
who is currently 17.
I tell her...that of course if she is 17 day of shooting...a parent (or guardian) needs to sign a release AND attend the shoot.

I got this interesting reply....

"Okay well my dad is the one that takes care of me and he's in a wheelchair because he doesn't have legs. He usually talks on the phone to the photographers or writes them a note. "

I can only image what the 'note from her dad' must be.

I'm NOT planning to work with her now...but...
it sounds like many other photographers have.

Thoughts anyone??

I'd be afraid for the photographers...
and if a minor IS shooting with photographers (alone)..I'd be afraid for the model too!!
Oct 18 12 08:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Antediluvian Design
Posts: 1,137
Scranton, Pennsylvania, US


They use photographers as currency in the joint.
Oct 18 12 08:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Charger Photography
Posts: 1,701
San Antonio, Texas, US


I worked with lots of underage models.... the youngest one 15... all of them in my port... I just shoot age appropiate stuff... no problems.. sometimes without a parent... Don't understand the paranoia.
Oct 18 12 08:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


patrick otoole wrote:
Hi All.
So the age old topic....

So I'm setting up a shoot...and I contact a newby model on MM
who is currently 17.
I tell her...that of course if she is 17 day of shooting...a parent (or guardian) needs to sign a release AND attend the shoot.

I got this interesting reply....

"Okay well my dad is the one that takes care of me and he's in a wheelchair because he doesn't have legs. He usually talks on the phone to the photographers or writes them a note. "

I can only image what the 'note from her dad' must be.

I'm NOT planning to work with her now...but...
it sounds like many other photographers have.

Thoughts anyone??

I'd be afraid for the photographers...
and if a minor IS shooting with photographers (alone)..I'd be afraid for the model too!!

I don't shoot alone with minors, but if I did, I wouldn't harm them, and there's no reason to thing any particular photographer would.  Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of photographers have shot senior pictures for decades while alone with the subject.

As far as your situation, if I REALLY liked her look, I'd offer to bring the lights to her place, and shoot her with dad there.

(If it's not obvious, I wouldn't be shooting for this port.)

Oct 18 12 08:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 7,491
Imperial, California, US


Yep!! Not gonna shoot her for another year!!
Oct 18 12 08:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,726
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Ive shot 4 underage agency models in the past week( paid )  with either their agents or their parents around 

what is wrong with say going to meet the father ?

chances are if the average photographer ever hopes to work with a future Supermodel ( like my avatar ) you are going to need to shoot with her before she reaches the age of majority
Oct 18 12 08:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
robert b mitchell
Posts: 1,217
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


I have shot with underage WITH an escort/parent around. I have had a few pull  some tricks like they "can't bring a parent I can come anways" or I am really 15 not 17. " My parents don't care what I do..."
Personally, the maority of them I find harder to deal with cause their mind is somewheres else.
Oct 18 12 09:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,457
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Shot with both these girls twice without a parent present..

16 yrs old
http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/121009/11/507468cc18e0e_m.jpg

17 yrs old
http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/120916/23/5056bf64d5c90_m.jpg

They both have to be the kindest & most professional acting girls I've worked with.

Just my thoughts ~ MR
Oct 18 12 09:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,174
Salem, Oregon, US


we've done shoots with minors no problem. sometimes the parents just drop them off and don't stick around for the shoot. sometimes the minors just come by themselves. as long as it's age-appropriate and you keep your language age-appropriate it doesn't have to be a big deal. lots of senior picture shoots happen without the parents tagging along.

if a 17 year old (or their parent) wants anything racy then they have to wait.
Oct 18 12 10:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotographybyT
Posts: 7,596
Monterey, California, US


patrick otoole wrote:
17 will get you 15 to 20 ?!

Yikes! What is it that you plan on doing with the 17 year old? yikes

Oct 18 12 10:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
P R I M E U S
Posts: 58
Rockingham, North Carolina, US


I definitely would not shoot with her, no way !!!
Oct 18 12 10:55 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,413
San Francisco, California, US


patrick otoole wrote:
17 will get you 15 to 20 ?!
PhotographybyT wrote:
Yikes! What is it that you plan on doing with the 17 year old? yikes

My thoughts exactly!

Oct 18 12 10:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


I've shot with models from 4 to 64. Plenty of under-18. No problem. I shoot age-appropriate. The parents are involved every step of the way and are present at the shoots, though with one under-18er I'd shot with plenty of times, we checked in with the mom and then the two of us would shoot at a scenic location a few blocks from their home.

I, too, don't understand the paranoia.
Oct 18 12 11:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


patrick otoole wrote:
I'd be afraid for the photographers...
and if a minor IS shooting with photographers (alone)..I'd be afraid for the model too!!

After watching many American films I have to agree with you, I'd be afraid too since on TV, your average American teen always seem to be canon fodder for some psycho with a mask or are vampire slayers.

Seriously what do you plan to do with her? Shoot age appropriate stuff like any sane person. I really question the motivation of some people here!

Oct 19 12 01:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Garry k wrote:
Ive shot 4 underage agency models in the past week( paid )  with either their agents or their parents around 

what is wrong with say going to meet the father ?

chances are if the average photographer ever hopes to work with a future Supermodel ( like my avatar ) you are going to need to shoot with her before she reaches the age of majority

This response is far too sensible to be allowed on MM... hang your head in shame and go stand in the corner immediately... big_smile

Oct 19 12 01:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
EdwardKristopher
Posts: 3,338
Tempe, Arizona, US


:-)
Oct 19 12 02:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Images by MR wrote:
Shot with both these girls twice without a parent present..

16 yrs old
http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/121009/11/507468cc18e0e_m.jpg

17 yrs old
http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/120916/23/5056bf64d5c90_m.jpg

They both have to be the kindest & most professional acting girls I've worked with.

Just my thoughts ~ MR

Guessing you shoot without a model release then.

Oct 19 12 03:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Karl Blessing wrote:

Guessing you shoot without a model release then.

Unless he uses them commercially, he doesn't necessarily need one.

Oct 19 12 03:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
Unless he uses them commercially, he doesn't necessarily need one.

I go for a bit more security than someone in another country saying I "don't necessarily need" a release.  Where you need them, what you need them for, and what they have to say, vary greatly from state to state, and as a practical matter, from court to court.  I'd rather be safe.

Especially since putting it in your own online portfolio is deemed "using it commercially" in some cases.

Oct 19 12 04:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Igmar Photography
Posts: 42
New York, New York, US


Charger Photography wrote:
I worked with lots of underage models.... the youngest one 15... all of them in my port... I just shoot age appropiate stuff... no problems.. sometimes without a parent... Don't understand the paranoia.

Agreed. I shoot them all the time too for many years with no problems. With and without parent.

I keep an internet camera in the studio running at all times but that's for all situations, particularly theft. I've caught a few people stealing equipment in the past.

But as far as shooting underage models, I've never had any problems. People are hysterical nowadays.

Oct 19 12 04:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Igmar Photography
Posts: 42
New York, New York, US


Karl Blessing wrote:
Guessing you shoot without a model release then.

If it's non commercial, you don't usually need a model release.

But if I do, the parent can sign it later, when I drop her off.

Oct 19 12 05:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Charger Photography
Posts: 1,701
San Antonio, Texas, US


Igmar Photography wrote:

If it's non commercial, you don't usually need a model release.

But if I do, the parent can sign it later, when I drop her off.

+1000

Oct 19 12 09:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mirror With A Memory
Posts: 282
New York, New York, US


I don't know why guys are so fixated on these  underage girls.
Oct 19 12 09:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


PhotographybyT wrote:
Yikes! What is it that you plan on doing with the 17 year old? yikes

+1

I've yet to see anybody sent to prison for the act of photographing a minor. I honestly don't understand this "No way! Not until she's 18" philosophy.

What happens after the model turns 18 that couldn't happen when she's 17? Are photographers worried about minors falsely accusing them? Does that fear vanish when the model turns 18? Are you better off being falsely accused of something if the model is 21 vs 17? Or is there an increase likelihood that it happening with a 17 year old vs an 18 year old?

Do photographers think they are limited to very narrow content when the model is a minor? Unless you're shooting overtly provocative or nude images that wouldn't be an issue either.

Or are photographers worried about the perception of being a creepy perv if you're shooting a model who happens to be a minor? If that's the case, then the real issue isn't with others.

Unless you shoot explicit or sexual content why in the world would the age of the subject matter?

What is the major red flag, even in this scenario? Her father is disabled. So you meet with him prior to the shoot, have both parties sign any applicable documents and you schedule the shoot.

There is no law stating you can't photograph a minor without a parent/guardian being present.

Oct 19 12 09:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jhono Bashian
Posts: 2,427
Cleveland, Ohio, US


Mirror With A Memory wrote:
I don't know why guys are so fixated on these  underage girls.

they must like the thrill of the possibility of going to jail.

Oct 19 12 09:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Mirror With A Memory wrote:
I don't know why guys are so fixated on these  underage girls.

The majority of successful models begin their careers as minors. If you think it's fixation here, go to the major agencies and see their roster of models. You don't see too many 27 year olds breaking into the business.

Actually, on MM it seems quite the opposite. There is no fixation. If anything, the fixation is on the inappropriateness and fear of shooting a minor.

Oct 19 12 09:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,315
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


i'm not afraid of 17 year old girls....i'd probably shoot her in some age appropriate imagery..

heres a 17 year old, alone with me in mahattan, at night:
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/580162_391540570886089_1226056367_n.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png
Oct 19 12 09:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Jhono Bashian wrote:
they must like the thrill of the possibility of going to jail.

Perfect point. So, in your mind, working with an underage model is something inherently seedy, where the possibility of going to jail exists.

Unless someone plans on doing something illegal, why would you have such a fear of going to jail?

I'm curious how you justify that?

Oct 19 12 09:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
i'm not afraid of 17 year old girls....i'd probably shoot her in some age appropriate imagery..

heres a 17 year old, alone with me in mahattan, at night:

OMG, you actually did this in PUBLIC? Who did you call to bail you out of jail?!

Oct 19 12 09:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,315
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:
I'm curious how you justify that?

a thief, always thinks someone is trying to steal from them...

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png

Oct 19 12 09:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DanaBarrett Photography
Posts: 1,030
Franklin, Tennessee, US


As long as you have met the parent and been given permission, you should be fine.  Of course I would recommend a minor model release.
Oct 19 12 09:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tim Little Photography
Posts: 11,524
Wilmington, Delaware, US


As long as the parents are aware of the shoot and approve of it I would be alright with a 17 year old. She would have to be very professional though.
Oct 19 12 09:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R80
Posts: 2,567
Marceline, Missouri, US


The paranoia I often see on this site in regards to shooting underage models perplexes me.  As someone already pointed out, many pro models begin their careers before the age of 18.  Hell, some of them even get signed for multi-million dollar contracts before that age.  (Yeah, they can buy a lot of you guys.)

I wonder if these could be the shooters that have problems with models of legal age, the ones we hear the horror stories about.  When shooting female models, regardless of age, my mind is on shooting, not my chances of a quick hook-up.  There is a certain amount of professionalism that goes along with the job and business wise, I'd much rather have a reputation as a good photographer rather than some "hump-doggie."

If any of you paranoiacs are in my area and start shaking whenever a teen model calls for photo work, send them my way.  We do a ton of senior grad photos here and. it keeps the money coming in on a somewhat regular basis.  Even if the model isn't a senior yet, she will be, and I can bet who she'll want to go to for grad photos.

Anything, anything at all that I may use for advertising, I get a release for.  I may not use it, but if down the road I want to, I have it.
Oct 19 12 09:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Charger Photography
Posts: 1,701
San Antonio, Texas, US


She was 15 at the time.....  The mother signed the release later when I drop off the llama at home.

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/110108/15/4d28f36eaa3e1_m.jpg
Oct 19 12 09:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,315
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
i'm not afraid of 17 year old girls....i'd probably shoot her in some age appropriate imagery..

heres a 17 year old, alone with me in mahattan, at night:
Michael Pandolfo wrote:
OMG, you actually did this in PUBLIC? Who did you call to bail you out of jail?!

no jail, no drama, just a pleasant evening of shooting and some cool pics for our books..

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png

Oct 19 12 09:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
no jail, no drama, just a pleasant evening of shooting and some cool pics for our books..

You mean it was a professional, productive shoot...with a 17 year old model? Well, that simply just won't fly on MM.

Oct 19 12 10:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,315
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
no jail, no drama, just a pleasant evening of shooting and some cool pics for our books..
Michael Pandolfo wrote:
You mean it was a professional, productive shoot...with a 17 year old model? Well, that simply just won't fly on MM.

i envision an "inception like" MM dream collapse from this information

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png

Oct 19 12 10:10 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,917
New York, New York, US


I don't shoot with anyone under 18, just in order to avoid the whole question, but if you're comfortable with the fact that someone, somewhere, may someday make something of it, then more power to you.

The father in a wheelchair situation would bother me a bit, though.  It may well be legit, but if you're at all worried, as you obviously are, it might be well to verify that by meeting him in person.

Or just waiting a few months.
Oct 19 12 10:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,733
Buena Park, California, US


patrick otoole wrote:
Hi All.
So the age old topic....

So I'm setting up a shoot...and I contact a newby model on MM
who is currently 17.
I tell her...that of course if she is 17 day of shooting...a parent (or guardian) needs to sign a release AND attend the shoot.

I got this interesting reply....

"Okay well my dad is the one that takes care of me and he's in a wheelchair because he doesn't have legs. He usually talks on the phone to the photographers or writes them a note. "

I can only image what the 'note from her dad' must be.

I'm NOT planning to work with her now...but...
it sounds like many other photographers have.

Thoughts anyone??

I'd be afraid for the photographers...
and if a minor IS shooting with photographers (alone)..I'd be afraid for the model too!!

You're behavior is different if their parent is there?

If not, then what is the problem?

Oct 19 12 10:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,733
Buena Park, California, US


Karl Blessing wrote:

Guessing you shoot without a model release then.

For a release to be signed, a parent needs to be present?  It can be signed at a later time.  Or signed prior to the shoot.

Oct 19 12 10:19 am  Link  Quote 
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