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first12
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,327
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Tony Lawrence wrote:

For casual test shoots who cares but when it matters.   When I'm renting space and or hiring MUA, etc.   I want too know that models are coming.   I want too know what the model looks like without Photoshop.   Asking photographer she's worked with means nothing because she showed for them.   What I won't know is those shooters she flaked on.   When a project is important or if there is a paying client it can be critical to know your talent is reliable and looks like their images.

If it's a paid shoot then I *might* go to these meetings... But still, I have a pretty busy schedule. If you just want to shoot TF, I don't see a benefit for me.

Besides, I hate coffee shops. And I don't like coffee either.

Nov 18 12 04:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,179
Chicago, Illinois, US


P I X I E wrote:

If it's a paid shoot then I *might* go to these meetings... But still, I have a pretty busy schedule. If you just want to shoot TF, I don't see a benefit for me.

Besides, I hate coffee shops. And I don't like coffee either.

I was speaking of paid work.   Full time models are expected too go to castings and go sees.   If it is like most of what's done on MM who cares.   However just imagine working with a team and a client, booking a model from MM.   She flakes or is pounds heaver then her profile or maybe older or with bad skin.   We are all busy people.   Models too busy to meet with paying clients or with those producing solid TF work might consider another line of work.   Coffee aside.   If I'm paying we meet before a shoot.   Wouldn't you in the photographers place?

Nov 18 12 04:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35,327
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Tony Lawrence wrote:

I was speaking of paid work.   Full time models are expected too go to castings and go sees.   If it is like most of what's done on MM who cares.   However just imagine working with a team and a client, booking a model from MM.   She flakes or is pounds heaver then her profile or maybe older or with bad skin.   We are all busy people.   Models too busy to meet with paying clients or with those producing solid TF work might consider another line of work.   Coffee aside.   If I'm paying we meet before a shoot.   Wouldn't you in the photographers place?

Of course. But I hear it way too often that a photographer requires a pre-shoot meeting, regardless of compensation. I will show up for these if it's something out of this world.

But I'm not a full-time model, and am sort of half retired anyway. Make what you want out of that.

Nov 18 12 04:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,515
Portland, Oregon, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
Asking photographer she's worked with means nothing because she showed for them.   What I won't know is those shooters she flaked on.

Fair enough.  So, don't (exclusively) ask the photographers she has worked with.  Ask the photographers in your community.  Ask the photographers in her local area.  Ask around -- you'll get a feel.

But I figure if you are whipping out cash for a studio rental, and if you have a paying client, you should be paying an experienced model and not doing a TF* with a newbie.  You should be able to get a sense when a model is getting paid on a regular basis, and I would think that any paid model who flakes often is not likely to be a paid model for long, especially if you communicate with your fellow photographers.

But, as always, you are welcome to do whatever crazy thing that works for you.

Nov 18 12 06:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Moore Photo Graphix
Posts: 5,288
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Karl Philip Duarte  wrote:
My way works in the years I have used MM for Models I have simply met with model before the shoot and if she shows up for a preliminary meeting and is serious I know she will show on shoot day........

On the other hand, don't be surprised when you came across models who'll refuse you pre shoot meeting condition in the same way photographers refuse to work with models who have an escort policy.

Nov 18 12 08:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


Dragon Graffix wrote:
I have not done this before, but would any of you kind folk be able to help me here.

Is there any mechanism on Model Mayhem to indicate on a Model's profile (or a photographer if need be) that a model has cancelled for a poor reason, or that they have no-showed for a poor reason.

This is so other photographers know what the model is prone to do before they waste time (and money) on the model.

Many thanks!

Let's suppose the model has flat out made up a reason to cancel, how do you know she's prone to do that to everyone and not just to you?

It sucks she didn't show, but there's nothing you can do now except move on. And yes, if she's a problem model it would be great if you could warn everyone, but you're not in a position to know that.

Nov 18 12 11:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dragon Graffix
Posts: 8
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


Moore Photo Graphix wrote:
It doesn't! Here's why!

1. MM has made it clear along time ago not to get involve in personal disputes. Many flake and cancellation threads are one-sided (keyword is one side). It's not that they're lying, but we can't confirm they're telling the truth because this is the internet. Not everything you read on there is 100% true. So, who'll verify the information, and can you have them be independent to avoid any conflict of interest?

2. If the information posted turn out to be false, who'll be held accountable? That opens the site, let alone the owners of it, to a legal firestorm it may not survive. How would feel if a model posted deliberate misinformation on your profile without any fear of punishment? Ever thought about that? If not, you might need to reconsider. There's an old saying that goes if you plan to seek revenge, start digging 2 graves. A better option is to move on and forget the incident never happened.

Have you missed the point of my post??? It was a simple question!

Nov 19 12 11:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KeithDewey3
Posts: 1,425
Plattsburg, Missouri, US


It doesn't have that policy and thank goodness it doesn't!  The last thing we need here is more drama as people fight over who is right and who is wrong.

You will get better at spotting flakes, develop strategies to keep them from ruining your day,  learn to just deal with it, or you will quit shooting new models.   All of those work you just have to decide which ones are for you.
Nov 19 12 11:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orcatek Photography
Posts: 1,689
Tempe, Arizona, US


This comes up a lot.   Everyone says a rating system will never work.

Amazon, Ebay, reseller ratings. epinions, Better Business Bureau etc.  seem to differ.

Once you hit volume, the ratings tend to work.   One or two he said/she said will fall off.

I believe that if we had one, a large number of models and photographers would drop off.  Bad for advertising revenue, but would be great for those trying to do real work.

Ever wonder why MM doesn't get rid of or archive accounts that haven't logged on in years.  Numbers would be my guess. 

Dean
www.Orcatek.com
Nov 19 12 11:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,235
New York, New York, US


If EBay can do it....why not? Cost? Charge a few bucks, I'm fine with that!
Nov 19 12 11:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,515
Portland, Oregon, US


Orcatek Photography wrote:
Amazon, Ebay, reseller ratings. epinions, Better Business Bureau etc.  seem to differ.

Those sites bring in revenue, make a profit, have lawyers on retainer, and discourage negative reviews. 

You want that?  Start a modeling web site of your own, charge for membership, reject the "cell phone only" models, don't let models ask to be paid, etc.  Good luck.

Nov 19 12 01:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Moore Photo Graphix
Posts: 5,288
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Dragon Graffix wrote:
Have you missed the point of my post??? It was a simple question!

And I answered your simple question according! MM has a no outing rule, and they won't get involved in personal disputes. If you don't like my answers, no problem. You asked for opinions, and you get them, take it or leave it!

Nov 19 12 02:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Devereaux
Posts: 603
Portland, Oregon, US


Just block them and do not let them ever into your life. Simple and easy solution. Plus, MM can not control what you post on other social networks.
Nov 19 12 02:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5,309
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Unfortunately flaking is a hazard with MM models (and photographers too, I've been told).

Outing is outlawed on MM. That's not entirely a bad thing. There are two sides to every story, and outing or a rating system can be misused - against the innocent as well as the guilty. And whi;e you can have a "do not recommend" list, I don't think that's particularly effective - and as noted above it tends to reflect on both parties.

After I started shooting in the new studio in January, three of the first four models flaked. Now it's down to 1 in about 25.

For one thing, I've gotten better at reading models' profiles and reading which models are serious and which ones aren't.

The other thing I'm doing differently is planning shoots in advance with the model. Most people on MM, when they decide to shoot, set a date and then figure out what to do. To me that’s backwards. I want to pre-plan the shoot with the model before I schedule it.

I’ve found that pre-planned shoots go smoother and are MUCH more productive. Everybody knows what we’re shooting, where, in what order, what wardrobe will be used, and what moods and looks we’re going for.

Before the shoot we've exchanged photos (or links to photos) to illustrate the looks we’re thinking of, and in most cases I’ve seen photos of the wardrobe we’ll be using and will have participated in the choice or wardrobe. Words are subject to interpretation – and misinterpretation, especially where intangibles like concepts and looks are involved. With photos everybody sees the same thing.

Getting the model involved in planning a shoot has helped in more ways than one. In addition to resulting in better and more productive shoots, it helps to weed out models who aren't serious.

If a model can't find the little amount of time needed to plan a shoot with her, I probably don't need to work with her, because most likely wouldn't yield the results I'm looking for.

A side benefit is that (I believe) this has also cut way down on flaking. If a model isn't willing to spend a little time planning, she might not be willing to spend the time on a shoot either. And if she's invested the time to put together a shoot plan that she's excited about, she has more incentive to show up.
Nov 19 12 03:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 8,344
Olney, Maryland, US


I have an idea:

Put flakes in your list of credits as if you worked with them.  Then when someone asks for a reference, you can tell the real story.

For the record:  I've had only one flake and she deleted her membership one week later.
Nov 19 12 04:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dragon Graffix
Posts: 8
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


Moore Photo Graphix wrote:
And I answered your simple question according! MM has a no outing rule, and they won't get involved in personal disputes. If you don't like my answers, no problem. You asked for opinions, and you get them, take it or leave it!

My sincere and public apologies sir. You were being very helpful and tried to answer my original question and I thank you for that. I misread your response as being in support of a previous comment that had jumped to the wrong conclusion, and I am sorry for that. It is me that has now jumped to the wrong conclusion!

Nov 20 12 11:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Accidental Plateau
Posts: 7,715
Brooklyn, New York, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:

RKD Photographic wrote:
The Mods act as final arbitrator

That would be a disaster on MM.

You really think so?

Nov 20 12 12:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Accidental Plateau
Posts: 7,715
Brooklyn, New York, US


Camerosity wrote:
Unfortunately flaking is a hazard with MM models (and photographers too, I've been told).

It is not just MM. People do that to each other in general. It is part of the human condition.

It makes me wonder, along with many other posts where people are shocked by human behavior that some people here never interact that much except for on-line venues.

Nov 20 12 12:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:
That would be a disaster on MM.

Accidental  Plateau wrote:
You really think so?

I really do think so.

To explain why would probably get me banned.

Nov 20 12 01:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
V Laroche
Posts: 2,746
New Orleans, Louisiana, US


OP, maybe you should spend a few minutes reading the forums before posting. Think of the forums as a conversation that has been going on for years. You are just busting in with the same old stuff EVERYONE ALWAYS busts in here with.
Nov 20 12 06:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dragon Graffix
Posts: 8
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


V Laroche wrote:
OP, maybe you should spend a few minutes reading the forums before posting. Think of the forums as a conversation that has been going on for years. You are just busting in with the same old stuff EVERYONE ALWAYS busts in here with.

Thank you for patronising me - I really appreciate it! All I was looking for was a Yes or a No as I could not find a facility on Model Mayhem!

Nov 21 12 10:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sophistocles
Posts: 21,320
Seattle, Washington, US


A few years ago, I came up with a solution. It was blocked by MM, omp and other smaller sites as competitively threatening.

It will return in 2013, and will no longer be vulnerable to the whims of other sites.

I'm hoping that the patent will be granted by then, but we are moving forward regardless.
Nov 21 12 10:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,484
San Diego, California, US


Sophistocles wrote:
A few years ago, I came up with a solution. It was blocked by MM, omp and other smaller sites as competitively threatening.

It will return in 2013, and will no longer be vulnerable to the whims of other sites.

I'm hoping that the patent will be granted by then, but we are moving forward regardless.

Juicy! Sophisto, is this a piece of tech you've developed? Like a plug in or something?

Nov 21 12 10:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sophistocles
Posts: 21,320
Seattle, Washington, US


ChiMo wrote:
Juicy! Sophisto, is this a piece of tech you've developed? Like a plug in or something?

Something like that. But different wink ( yes, I'm being obtuse. Some will remember the first implementation. This one is similar, but different in that technology has advanced in the interim )

Nov 21 12 11:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
255 West
Posts: 6,468
New York, New York, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
Does that mean that there is nothing you can do?  No, there's plenty you can do:

........

3)  Learn other ways to determine whether a llama is reliable.  There are clues everywhere.  For example:  how varied is her portfolio, has she worked with a wide variety of photographers, what do those photographers say about her, etc.?


I believe that these things take care of themselves in the long run: 

   If a llama in consistently unreliable, she won't find work.

   If a photographer consistently gets flaked upon, he will improve his selection
   criteria.

One highly reliable way to judge character of the prospective model is TO HAVE HER CALL!!!!!
Or better, TO MEET HER IN PERSON!!!

A couple of discussions within the last week or two were about whether models can even be bothered to communicate other than through texting.
What are we, in ninth grade?

The sheer stupidity and lame-assed excuses for "I'm too busy to call", or GOD FORBID,  " to meet the photographer for 20 minutes at a Starbucks."

"Look, girly! Are you interested in learning to be a professional or not?" I'd ask.
It feels less like dealing with a pro model than it does parenting an adolescent schoolgirl with dreams of being discovered as a supermodel in about six weeks. "Oh, I've always wanted to be a model, and I'm driven to be the very best, and will commit my very soul to learning all I can about the industry", then a week later, their profile disappears. Pppvvvtt!(Raspberry)

Let's face it, the overwhelming majority of models here are just children. (They call themselves "experienced" and take "paid assignments only" after ONE shoot and a few iPhone pictures taken in a bathroom.) facepalm


There's my rant.

Aug 14 13 05:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
255 West
Posts: 6,468
New York, New York, US


P I X I E wrote:
If it's a paid shoot then I *might* go to these meetings... But still, I have a pretty busy schedule. If you just want to shoot TF, I don't see a benefit for me.

Besides, I hate coffee shops. And I don't like coffee either.

Sorry, too bad. If you want to take this modeling thing seriously, then you pretty much do as the photographer asks. (The photographer directs and runs the shoot -- and is ultimately held completely responsible for its outcome.)

If you feel the shoot doesn't benefit you, then don't take the job. Is that so hard? No one wants to work with someone who doesn't want to be there.

Phoning, meeting, then showing up at the shoot, on time, and full of energy, and giving it your all, even when you're pissed-off because you're not getting so much as carfare from the cheap prick photographer, is what being "professional" is all about.

Aug 14 13 06:32 pm  Link  Quote 
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