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Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


to be precise, i am at the end of my rope. and i am seriously considering hanging up my camera, for good. i just cannot seem to find suitable llamas to work with. i do not expect much from posting here on MM, but think i might as well give it a shot. i was ill for awhile, and now that i am coming back around i find that things have changed or shifted, and i am seemingly out of vogue. or something. perhaps someone can give me some constructive insight or pointers about where i might look to that i currently have no comprehension of. or perhaps i should just hang it up. i really do not know. it's not an issue of money. seems that paid llamas are just as ambivalent as trade llamas, in my current experience. strange.

here are the limiting factors, that i am consciously aware of:
1. i require llamas who are long, lean, fit, clean [mostly], and fearless.
2. i live 2 hours NW of the nearest major urban center.
3. my work is not very glamorous.

i just declined VIP membership extension yesterday. another 100 bucks for what? so, most of my stuff resides on DA: http://kannagara.deviantart.com/gallery/
Nov 12 12 09:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Piscis Noctis
Posts: 11,007
Santa Rosa, California, US


daz3d ?
poser ?
Nov 12 12 10:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RacerXPhoto
Posts: 2,460
Brooklyn, New York, US


So your only interest is shooting  long, lean, fit, clean females ???

A: I cant relate to such a limited scope
B:With all due respect I have to question your interest in photography
You have a landscape as your avi..did you shoot it ?
Why not more of that ?
If models dried up tomorrow I'm going to find something else in this world to photograph.
Nov 12 12 10:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,836
Vineland, New Jersey, US


If you are having trouble finding models that meet your criteria, change the criteria.  Simple, right?

  ETA:  I just used the browse feature of this site.  I entered your city (listed on your profile) for a starting point.  Within 50 miles, there are almost 1,000 models.  Of those 773 are female.  I don't think 50 miles is *that* far for someone to drive, especially if the project is mutually beneficial.

  I'm sure there are many more within 100 miles.  At least some of them should seemingly meet your really strict criteria for what they *have* to be. 

  If none of them are, maybe model photography isn't for you but some kind of photography is.
Nov 12 12 10:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Piscis Noctis wrote:
daz3d ?
poser ?

what is "daz3d"?

Nov 12 12 10:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
If you are having trouble finding llamas that meet your criteria, change the criteria.  Simple, right?

sounds so. but it's not. i have compromised for awhile now, and the lackluster results reflect exactly that.

Nov 12 12 10:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
a raw muse
Posts: 2,942
Brooklyn, New York, US


RacerXPhoto wrote:
So your only interest is shooting  long, lean, fit, clean females ???

A: I cant relate to such a limited scope
B:With all due respect I have to question your interest in photography
You have a landscape as your avi..did you shoot it ?
Why not more of that ?
If models dried up tomorrow I'm going to find something else in this world to photograph.

Seconded.

I'd work with you, but I'm not a skinny model, so I wouldn't even bother to contact you because I know I fall outside of your desired "type".

I suggest:
"Lowering your standards". Not in a "shoot with anyone who is willing to", but try to find inspiration in those who are in your area who may otherwise fall a bit outside of your "ideal".

Use every networking site possible. I find a lot of work from MM, and a LOT more work from craigslist.

Travel to where models you would like to shoot are. Make a yearly trip (or more if you can afford it). Or, bring models to you. But, since you spin it like you're 2 hours away from anything, I'm guessing the first option would be more successful.

Again, based on your work alone, I'd work with you. But the general attitude from this post and sort of "I-give-up-ness" lack of bio drive me away. Put positive energy out and I'm sure you'll have better results.

Nov 12 12 10:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


RacerXPhoto wrote:
So your only interest is shooting  long, lean, fit, clean females ???

A: I cant relate to such a limited scope
B:With all due respect I have to question your interest in photography
You have a landscape as your avi..did you shoot it ?
Why not more of that ?
If models dried up tomorrow I'm going to find something else in this world to photograph.

this is model mayhem, not landscape mayhem. the avatar is just an artifact, and who cares about that anyway. i pointed to my DA account which has plenty else to consider. but it is models, not landscapes, that i need to flesh out the concepts that i have in mind.

Nov 12 12 10:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,836
Vineland, New Jersey, US


BTW ... in revising my search, there appears to be 207 models within 100 miles of you that are at least 5'9 but less than 6'5 and weigh somewhere between 50 and 150 pounds.  This number only represents those who have logged in within 30 days.  It seems like someone would be great for you. 

  Maybe I'm wrong.  YMMV.
Nov 12 12 10:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


For starters, your profile isn't exactly chock full of information about you and how you work. It's a passage from THE BRIDE OF THE MAN-HORSE. Period. How that doesn't just knock the socks right off the models, I'll never guess.

You don't seem to make any effort to make yourself approachable and then you complain that the models don't approach. There's something you can work on.
Nov 12 12 10:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


indefinite anomaly wrote:
Seconded.

I'd work with you, but I'm not a skinny model, so I wouldn't even bother to contact you because I know I fall outside of your desired "type".

I suggest:
"Lowering your standards". Not in a "shoot with anyone who is willing to", but try to find inspiration in those who are in your area who may otherwise fall a bit outside of your "ideal".

Use every networking site possible. I find a lot of work from MM, and a LOT more work from craigslist.

Travel to where models you would like to shoot are. Make a yearly trip (or more if you can afford it). Or, bring models to you. But, since you spin it like you're 2 hours away from anything, I'm guessing the first option would be more successful.

Again, based on your work alone, I'd work with you. But the general attitude from this post and sort of "I-give-up-ness" lack of bio drive me away. Put positive energy out and I'm sure you'll have better results.

okay, the craigslist idea is constructive. it's not something i am familiar with.

as for the rest of what you said, i think you are misreading me. maybe. you look totally fine to me. in other words, my perception of lean. in our fat culture, you are definitely lean. the i-give-up-ness is because i - and my collaborators - have become so frustrated with the utter lack of interest. and yes, locals too. zip.

Nov 12 12 10:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
BTW ... in revising my search, there appears to be 207 models within 100 miles of you that are at least 5'9 but less than 6'5 and weigh somewhere between 50 and 150 pounds.  This number only represents those who have logged in within 30 days.  It seems like someone would be great for you. 

  Maybe I'm wrong.  YMMV.

i have conducted the same searches. i have found no one who is even moderately suitable.

Nov 12 12 10:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Kirk
Posts: 4,411
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada


I really don't have any practical advice, but I sure hope you keep at it.  I love your photography!
Nov 12 12 10:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:
For starters, your profile isn't exactly chock full of information about you and how you work. It's a passage from THE BRIDE OF THE MAN-HORSE. Period. How that doesn't just knock the socks right off the models, I'll never guess.

You don't seem to make any effort to make yourself approachable and then you complain that the models don't approach. There's something you can work on.

thanks, i hadn't really thought about that. and i will do something about it tomorrow.

Nov 12 12 10:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
a raw muse
Posts: 2,942
Brooklyn, New York, US


nyk fury wrote:

okay, the craigslist idea is constructive. it's not something i am familiar with.

as for the rest of what you said, i think you are misreading me. maybe. you look totally fine to me. in other words, my perception of lean. in our fat culture, you are definitely lean. the i-give-up-ness is because i - and my collaborators - have become so frustrated with the utter lack of interest. and yes, locals too. zip.

Sea-tac artists community looks functional: http://seattle.craigslist.org/ats/

Well, if I'm misreading you, perhaps other appropriate models are misreading you, too. Hence why I say, positive energy is needed. Not in an artificial way; but at least write a somewhat descriptive "This is who I am, this is what my work is" so that you can allow others to latch on to something and be inspired to contact you.

My magic formula:
Post in artists community once a week or so.

Answer whatever gigs sound interesting on CL.

Browse local people when I feel "stuck" and sort by last activity.


I get fed up often, too; it gets draining to go through 3 weeks of not booking anything when you apply to castings every day. But then if you keep plugging away, something will work out. Or you will finally drive yourself mad and write rambling novels even Franz Kafka wouldn't understand.

Nov 12 12 10:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,781
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


First of all I think it would be a loss for MM if you left as you are one of the true artists ( who frequent the forums)

the realities are that you live a significant distance from a large urban center - where you could possibly hook into a network of like minded people ( includiing models )

your genre and style of photography is not going to appeal to a lot of aspiring fashion models cus it is too dark ,nude and perhaps a bit disturbing for them ( but isnt that the definition of art )thus  not the direction they wish to head

that being said though i think that your work can and does attract a some good models who appreciate your art ( and meet your physical criterea ) Maybe rather than looking for quantities of such models - you should focus on the ones that you do attract , make them your muses and create multiple projects with them
Nov 12 12 10:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
If you are having trouble finding models that meet your criteria, change the criteria.  Simple, right?

  ETA:  I just used the browse feature of this site.  I entered your city (listed on your profile) for a starting point.  Within 50 miles, there are almost 1,000 models.  Of those 773 are female.  I don't think 50 miles is *that* far for someone to drive, especially if the project is mutually beneficial.

  I'm sure there are many more within 100 miles.  At least some of them should seemingly meet your really strict criteria for what they *have* to be. 

  If none of them are, maybe model photography isn't for you but some kind of photography is.

yikes, you keep editing and changing your posts!!!

i do know that part of my problem is the general region that i reside in. it is sort of common knowledge apparently that it sucks here. however i do like to live here. the attractive models are in the east [america] or in LA. but even more so in eastern europe or russia. [from what i see via MM and DA]

Nov 12 12 10:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


indefinite anomaly wrote:
Sea-tac artists community looks functional: http://seattle.craigslist.org/ats/

Well, if I'm misreading you, perhaps other appropriate llamas are misreading you, too. Hence why I say, positive energy is needed. Not in an artificial way; but at least write a somewhat descriptive "This is who I am, this is what my work is" so that you can allow others to latch on to something and be inspired to contact you.

My magic formula:
Post in artists community once a week or so.

Answer whatever gigs sound interesting on CL.

Browse local people when I feel "stuck" and sort by last activity.


I get fed up often, too; it gets draining to go through 3 weeks of not booking anything when you apply to castings every day. But then if you keep plugging away, something will work out. Or you will finally drive yourself mad and write rambling novels even Franz Kafka wouldn't understand.

thanks so much for this input indefinite.

Nov 12 12 10:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Garry k wrote:
First of all I think it would be a loss for MM if you left as you are one of the true artists ( who frequent the forums)

the realities are that you live a significant distance from a large urban center - where you could possibly hook into a network of like minded people ( includiing models )

your genre and style of photography is not going to appeal to a lot of aspiring fashion models cus it is too dark ,nude and perhaps a bit disturbing for them ( but isnt that the definition of art )thus  not the direction they wish to head

that being said though i think that your work can and does attract a some good models who appreciate your art ( and meet your physical criterea ) Maybe rather than looking for quantities of such models - you should focus on the ones that you do attract , make them your muses and create multiple projects with them

gary, i haven't frequented these forums in over a year! but aside from that, what you are saying is something that i have been thinking. i do not personally see my stuff as all that dark or disturbing. it seems to me even rather plain for the most part. but i do sense that others see it differently.

the main thing is that i seem to be attracting zero models these days. and when you hit zero, then quantity does matter some.

Nov 12 12 10:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


David Kirk wrote:
I really don't have any practical advice, but I sure hope you keep at it.  I love your photography!

thank you david. damn, i really love the intensity of the looks that pervade your port!

Nov 12 12 10:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,781
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


nyk fury wrote:

gary, i haven't frequented these forums in over a year! but aside from that, what you are saying is something that i have been thinking. i do not personally see my stuff as all that dark or disturbing. it seems to me even rather plain for the most part. but i do sense that others see it differently.

the main thing is that i seem to be attracting zero models these days. and when you hit zero, then quantity does matter some.

let me rephrase that then

Participate in the forums .....

Nov 12 12 10:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,781
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Also

If the Mountain doesnt come to Mohammed .....
Nov 12 12 10:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Garry k wrote:
Also

If the Mountain doesnt come to Mohammed .....

oh, i [think i am beginning to] see what you mean....

Nov 12 12 11:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,836
Vineland, New Jersey, US


nyk fury wrote:
i have conducted the same searches. i have found no one who is even moderately suitable.

Sorry you feel that way.  One more thing to try:  You've listed limiting factors you're conscious of ... what are some of the limiting factors you're not conscious of?

  For instance, do all of your models have to be "attractive" (whatever that means to you)?

Nov 12 12 11:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,497
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Garry k wrote:
First of all I think it would be a loss for MM if you left as you are one of the true artists ( who frequent the forums)

the realities are that you live a significant distance from a large urban center - where you could possibly hook into a network of like minded people ( includiing llamas )

your genre and style of photography is not going to appeal to a lot of aspiring fashion llamas cus it is too dark ,nude and perhaps a bit disturbing for them ( but isnt that the definition of art )thus  not the direction they wish to head

that being said though i think that your work can and does attract a some good llamas who appreciate your art ( and meet your physical criterea ) Maybe rather than looking for quantities of such llamas - you should focus on the ones that you do attract , make them your muses and create multiple projects with them

I agree with Garry about your work.

Maybe consider travelling to the llamas location.

Nov 12 12 11:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Lovely Day Media wrote:
Sorry you feel that way.  One more thing to try:  You've listed limiting factors you're conscious of ... what are some of the limiting factors you're not conscious of?

  For instance, do all of your models have to be "attractive" (whatever that means to you)?

how can i detail factors i am not conscious of?!

models need to be effective for the designs being considered: is that not the same as 'attractive'?

Nov 12 12 11:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Images by MR wrote:
Maybe consider travelling to the models location.

i have recently begun thinking about just that. the one critical aspect of that is not being very well prepped on the locations i would be going to. i am very environment-conscious about everything i have done so far....

Nov 12 12 11:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan OMell
Posts: 1,335
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


I'm with you on this one.

Still, it's possible to spend at least very limited amount of time to find models that fit your vision the best. When nothing works, too lazy or the supply is very limited in your area, many artists just scan the models who are very close to their vision and work with the resulting digitized 3D objects in various simulation programs. Cinema 4D comes to mind. Very high resolution skin is the easiest part. Total freedom working with light and realistic poses. Some problem with face expression, but doable too.

Personally, I prefer the live models. It's just much easier. In some countries, like 75% of female population looks like Victoria Secret girls, naturally. It's worth to remember. Reality is actually good.
Nov 12 12 11:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,781
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


I would be happy to provide you with the names of some models who would probably work with you in my area ( paid though )
Nov 12 12 11:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Piscis Noctis
Posts: 11,007
Santa Rosa, California, US


nyk fury wrote:

what is "daz3d"?

They are both programs to make renderings of "people" in virtual settings.
They allow you lots of control over lots of things.
I know it's not the same as photography, but
if you don't want to compromise, you can get lots and lots
of control in those programs.
I'm sure there are better programs, but I don't know them :S

Nov 12 12 11:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4,319
Asheville, North Carolina, US


If you've been inactive it will take some time to get things moving again. You sound like you're on a program to restart your activity and if this is so you'll have to keep putting time and effort into it.

If you're post illness check to make sure you're not cashing it in because of depression or exhaustion that's unrelated to the photography and influencing your view. Your musings about being out of style sound a bit down, I have a hard time believing that is rationally or objectively true.

I looked at your current portfolio and  I wonder if it's possible you've worked into a narrower and more specific idea of look that you want from your model(s)? The more specific it gets the harder it is to find someone who fits. You may need to travel or bring someone in from a distance.

Best of luck, I wish I had something more specific for you as I like your work.
Nov 13 12 05:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Drew Smith Photography
Posts: 5,209
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom


OP - nothing to offer by way of help with your situation - just wanted to echo what somebody else already said in that it would be a loss to MM if you 'retired'.

Your port is thoughtful and engaging. Kudos.
Nov 13 12 06:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,067
Alexandria, Virginia, US


I hope you are successful in continuing your work - you have a very interesting artistic vision.  I admire that. 

What I do is not artistic, does not require artistic sensibility - I am a technician.  The artistic aspect of my images is created by my models and production teams. 

I would think that there are many models who would appreciate what you do.  Many of the models I shoot with, though they are fashion models, would, I think, be drawn to your work.

Perhaps you should think about finding opportunities outside of MM if that is not proving successful for you -   a conversation with the arts department of nearby universities might perhaps be fruitful. 

Even in a major metro area (though this area is really a backwater as far as fashion modeling goes)  a very very small percentage of models fit my needs for what I do as well. 

Good luck
Nov 13 12 06:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Garry k wrote:
I would be happy to provide you with the names of some models who would probably work with you in my area ( paid though )

i love vancouver. two years ago made my first and so far only visit there. i kind of didn't want to return to america.

Nov 13 12 06:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Piscis Noctis wrote:
They are both programs to make renderings of "people" in virtual settings.
They allow you lots of control over lots of things.
I know it's not the same as photography, but
if you don't want to compromise, you can get lots and lots
of control in those programs.
I'm sure there are better programs, but I don't know them :S

oh, i see. skip the meat bodies entirely. actually, i have taken up painting [analog] with the thought that it may come down to that.

Nov 13 12 06:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,912
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Jeffrey M Fletcher wrote:
If you've been inactive it will take some time to get things moving again...Best of luck, I wish I had something more specific for you as I like your work.

actually i think you probably made some really good points. i am very suspicious of my judgement in these matters, which is why i almost but did not quite hang it up a couple of months ago...

Nov 13 12 07:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 20,889
Portland, Oregon, US


nyk fury wrote:
to be precise, i am at the end of my rope. and i am seriously considering hanging up my camera, for good. i just cannot seem to find suitable models to work with. i do not expect much from posting here on MM, but think i might as well give it a shot. i was ill for awhile, and now that i am coming back around i find that things have changed or shifted, and i am seemingly out of vogue. or something. perhaps someone can give me some constructive insight or pointers about where i might look to that i currently have no comprehension of. or perhaps i should just hang it up. i really do not know. it's not an issue of money. seems that paid models are just as ambivalent as trade models, in my current experience. strange.

To answer your question -- I don't know.  (BTW:  I like your images).

But if you will allow me to speculate...

...  We really don't know how you go about finding models.  But speaking personally, I am not a big fan of casting calls.  I just don't believe that they are reviewed by a lot of people, and that's especially true if/when a model searches for casting calls that are within, say, 25 miles of Seattle.  You need to be proactive about finding models -- use the browse feature to find models and then do what you need to in order to entice them to come to you.

...  Or "If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, then Mohammed must go to the mountain".  Consider organizing your own trips to urban centers and use the browse feature -- contact the suitable models in each of those areas.

...  I'm lucky -- I live in an urban center where the community is active & communicates well.  I am a big, big believer in the power of the community.  Get to know your photographers, share references with people who know you.  Further, you could arrange "events", like inviting 4 photographers & 5 models out for a weekend in the country of fun & photography.  Form relationships!  Here's a secret:  (assume that) all models talk with each other -- if you are a good guy, they'll tell their modeling friends.

...  Learn how to use capital letters.  big_smile


Good luck.

Nov 13 12 07:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,836
Vineland, New Jersey, US


nyk fury wrote:
how can i detail factors i am not conscious of?!

models need to be effective for the designs being considered: is that not the same as 'attractive'?

The only way I know of to bring the unconscious to the conscious is to dig a little deeper and think about things on a deeper level than you (a person) has before.  If something isn't working, why isn't it working?  Has it ever worked?  If it did, did it work because it made sense or you got lucky? 

  You may need to ask yourself different questions.  You may even need to do something completely different but this is what I do when I'm baffled. 

  I'm not one who believes effective is always the same as attractive.  For instance, my Toyota Camry is effective.  A Ferrari F430 is attractive.  Both will get me from A to B at least sometimes, have a steering wheel, a seat, an engine and transmission but the complexity in the engineering is completely different in execution and philosophy.  They are not designed to do the same thing in the same way.

  What's the definition of attractive?  Does the model have to look like someone you would marry or date?  Does she have to look like someone from your past?  We're talking in the face, size, shape, etc.  Being great at posing and/or taking direction well is important, too, but if she's automatically rejected because she doesn't look like Cindy Crawford (for instance) no matter how great a model she is (she's effective but since she doesn't look like Cindy Crawford, she's not "attractive"), I'd wonder what the issue is that drives this.

  As others have said, retirement isn't desirable from my perspective, either, but one must do what one must do.

Nov 13 12 07:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,781
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


personally i believe that at least half the quality  of a photo ( in this genre of modelling ) has to do with the attractiveness of the  model one choses
Nov 13 12 08:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan Dozer
Posts: 541
La Quinta, California, US


I'm in a similiar situation as you are regarding location - I'm over 2 hours away from Los Angeles and there are only one or two full time experienced llamas near where I live.  It's pretty out of the way for llamas to come here from either LA or San Diego.  Many of the llamas I work with are full time travelling fine art llamas and all have been excellent to work with.  Based on your portfolio (which I really like), I can't believe that you couldn't attract llamas like Kiera Grant or Katy_T to work with you.

I routinely browse the travelling section to see what llamas are coming towards Los Angeles in the upcoming future, and contact them directly about their trips.  I suggest that you do the same regarding Seattle and I'm sure that you'll be able to find many to work with.
Nov 13 12 08:18 am  Link  Quote 
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