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Photographer
eirefoto
Posts: 7
Athenry, Galway, Ireland


I'm tired of photoshoots being about make-up artists rather than models.

The best make-up artists (in my opinion of course!), are those who help the model to look natural and beautiful and not those who make the model's face look like a canvas on loan from the Tate Gallery.

The role of the MUA should be like that of a bass-player in a band - help the star to sound (look) well but don't upstage him/her!

Peace  smile
Nov 13 12 11:05 am  Link  Quote 
Body Painter
Lisa Berczel
Posts: 3,958
Corona, California, US


A tad bit confrontational and ranty for a first post... but welcome to MM.

The obvious counter to your *bad experiences* is that the Photographer is in charge and sets the tone for the shoot. Everyone should be "on board" and create a Team - regardless of if the shoot is paid or TF.

It all comes down to the Photographer leading by example with good communication and realistic expectations from knowing how to evaluate portfolios up through pairing the skill set with the right project.

If you didn't get what you wanted/needed out of a MUA - and this is a reoccurring *problem* for you .... is it really all *her* fault?

Edit to Add: If your issue is with other photographer's images you see.... then it is all a matter of personal preference and what is needed out of an image by the team members involved in the project.

Edit #2: There is a LOT of beginner EVERYTHING here on MM  - from MUA to Model to Photographer. We ALL have been in a position of being mortified at our early images - one's which we were giddy in excitement about at the time. (Feathers and rhinestone and glitter, Oh MY.) But, that's the nature of growth as an Artist.

Edit #3: If the project is about "A-Lotta-Look" then the pressure is on the Model to *work it* and not get lost in product. I've seen both extremes - Models who have killed great makeup and other who have brough mediocrity to Life.
Nov 13 12 12:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DVP Photography
Posts: 2,848
Broomfield, Colorado, US


Lisa Berczel wrote:
A tad bit confrontational and ranty for a first post... but welcome to MM.

The obvious counter to your *bad experiences* is that the Photographer is in charge and sets the tone for the shoot. Everyone should be "on board" and create a Team - regardless of if the shoot is paid or TF.

It all comes down to the Photographer leading by example with good communication and realistic expectations from knowing how to evaluate portfolios up through pairing the skill set with the right project.

If you didn't get what you wanted/needed out of a MUA.... is it really all *her* fault?

Agreed.  It is up to the photographer to communicate his vision and what he wants to the MUA.  If the MUA can't do that well get another one, but in my experience that is rare.  The MUA almost always works hard to give me what I want.

Nov 13 12 12:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
MP Make-up Artistry
Posts: 5,105
Prince George, British Columbia, Canada


WOW... really.. you have now just black listed yourself form working with some amazing artist.. I know I'm insulted..

not all shoots require natural looks..
Nov 13 12 12:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Crystal Rose Make up
Posts: 486
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


The role of a make up artist is to apply make up best suited for the job and some jobs do require creative and over the top looks.

If you are after a clean and natural make up hire someone who specializes and enjoys doing clean looks.

There are different make up artists for certain looks and styles.  Some are more creative than others and some are better skilled and precise with thier work but most are happy to follow breifs.

Me, I'd rather be the lead singer than bass player any day and I can't do either smile
Nov 13 12 12:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
Angel Graves
Posts: 2,358
Fort Collins, Colorado, US


Wow is this a way to start a forum career!

On a side note, I tend to agree with what's been said already!  If you require a natural and clean look on your models communicate that to your MUA, seems pretty straight forward to me!  Your rather contradictory profile notes communicate a desire to shoot the 'arty' but a seriously worded disgust for your future MUA... So I'm confused as to how you plan to achieve your desires based on your disdain?  On the other hand, your photojournalism background might lend itself to not working with a team trying to achieve 'arty' images anyway...

A shame because there are some well talented MUA in Ireland and not far from you that you'll likely never get to work with because of this silly rant you've decided to publish, someone else's gain I'm sure wink
Nov 13 12 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Simire MUA
Posts: 91
London, England, United Kingdom


It's always difficult for the 'new' lad in class. There are many ways to seek attention....this is probably not the best one.

Now you have the focus of the Mua clan you so revile, what now? I hope your statement was meant to be tongue in cheek rather than as insulting as it is being portrayed. Mua's work to a brief. If you want natural, you get natural. Likewise with different looks and styles. You get what you want in our world, as long as you ask nicely.

I always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.....now's your second opening to redeem yourself.......
Nov 13 12 12:48 pm  Link  Quote 
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Makeup Artist
TheMakeupMan
Posts: 3,748
Los Angeles, California, US


That's like me posting in the photographers forum and basicly say
The role of the photographer is to be the monkey that pushes the button
Nov 13 12 02:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Thomas Van Dyke
Posts: 1,454
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Eirefoto wrote:
The best make-up artists ... are those who help the model...

agreed... albeit the art of casting for an effective team to meet client expectations expediently, within budget is a skill that may indeed be best learned through assisting...

I have found that fashion narratives especially require the synergy of an entire team of competent professional who have the ability to work well together, each respecting the gifts that other team members bring to the table... 

It is the burden of the creative director to visualize a client's narrative, underscore its meaning and translate concepts into compelling renderings to meet/exceed client expectations... the cast of stylist (hair, make-up and wardrobe) are selected based on their abilities to product the needed narrative and tenure plays into this process... likewise lens persons, lighting assistants, graphic artist i.e. retouchers etc are brought into the mix based on proven abilities...  all the above embraces "casting"

Harmony amongst every team member is paramount... an effective creative director inspires and nurtures such harmony...

experience is a brutal teacher here... 

Eirefoto have you considered the merits assisting other commercial entities within your chosen field/genre?

all the best on your journey...

Nov 13 12 02:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPierce Photography
Posts: 19,577
Amherst, Massachusetts, US


Communication, communication, communication ! If you are working with a make up artist and want something specific, you must COMMUNICATE with them to let them know what you want. You must COMMUNICATE with them to let you know what you *don't* want. All of this should be done ahead of time.

You, your model and your MUA must all work together. as a team. no backstabbing, no trash talking (hint, hint). A team.

If you find yourself having a lot of trouble- then look and see how you yourself is communicating/acting, to find out if you're contributing to the problem or an innocent bystander.

I trust my MUAs explicitly. We have worked together enough to the point, where I will give her a model and a wardrobe piece and say "she's all yours". I *know* she'll give me something magnificent and I trust her judgment.
Nov 13 12 02:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Body Painter
Lisa Berczel
Posts: 3,958
Corona, California, US


TheMakeupMan wrote:
That's like me posting in the photographers forum and basicly say
The role of the photographer is to be the monkey that pushes the button

Norf.

I'm waiting to see if the OP was scared off or will joining the conversation.

Nov 13 12 03:17 pm  Link  Quote 
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Makeup Artist
TheMakeupMan
Posts: 3,748
Los Angeles, California, US


Lisa Berczel wrote:
Norf.

I'm waiting to see if the OP was scared off or will joining the conversation.

Sounds like he just wanted to rant , must have had a bad day, Dosent sound like he s posing a question

Nov 13 12 04:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Body Painter
Lisa Berczel
Posts: 3,958
Corona, California, US


TheMakeupMan wrote:
Sounds like he just wanted to rant , must have had a bad day, Dosent sound like he s posing a question

Oh, I'm not holding my breath.

But, it would be nice to have the OP participate - not to defend or get bashed on, but to contribute more than what's reading as a rant.

Nov 13 12 05:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LC Makeup and Styling
Posts: 90
Perth, Western Australia, Australia


It really depends.  If I organise the actual photoshoot because I want to particularly focus on a look, then I call the shots even though Im open to ideas, it's still MY shoot, if not Im happy to listen to direction from whjoever is in charge of the shoot, whether it be the model or Tog. Also, not everyone wants simple makeup, part of being a makup artist is being able to show versatility in your work.
Nov 14 12 12:25 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
MAGIC FX
Posts: 347
New York, New York, US


In my opinion photoshoots should be about everything/everyone involved; ie...the llama, the makeup, the photography, the lighting, the hair, the styling....and last but not least the retoucher.  On many TFP shoots (especially here on llamaMayhem) the MUA is most likely trying out different looks and experimenting.  If you want a natural beauty look that is subtle yet breathtaking hire a MUA that specializes in what you want.  This post would have been better received in the photography forum I think.  Go complain over there.
Nov 14 12 06:19 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Aaliyah I
Posts: 226
Stevenage, England, United Kingdom


Eirefoto wrote:
I'm tired of photoshoots being about make-up artists rather than models.

You are working with the wrong MUAs.

or...

You need to learn to communicate with your team better. If you didn't give the MUA any briefing or visual aids (e.g moodboards) then how is she meant to know what she is meant to do ? If your working with a new artist then give him or her the benefit of the doubt because we do tend to go over board at first, using everything bright in our kit...but that phase soon wears off. smile Also the word "natural" can be interpreted in MANY different ways, so I would try to be a little more specific with a newer make up artist.

I agree, a make up artist should be there to make the talent took good. The MUA should know that sometimes the brief will allow unlimited creativity where s/he can go all out (especially if it's TF) and sometimes it will be more restricting. Please make this clear in the casting.

Just like in any relationship, communication is key. Good luck on future shoots smile

Nov 14 12 08:46 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Stephanie Donovan DBI
Posts: 5
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


TheMakeupMan wrote:
That's like me posting in the photographers forum and basicly say
The role of the photographer is to be the monkey that pushes the button

My thoughts exactly! I can't add much more to this topic as everyone has said what I want to already... it seems the OP has fallen off and gotten the point. Best way to learn is through experience!

Nov 14 12 09:28 am  Link  Quote 
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Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,117
Coronado, California, US


Eirefoto wrote:
I'm tired of photoshoots being about make-up artists rather than models.

The best make-up artists (in my opinion of course!), are those who help the model to look natural and beautiful and not those who make the model's face look like a canvas on loan from the Tate Gallery.

The role of the MUA should be like that of a bass-player in a band - help the star to sound (look) well but don't upstage him/her!

Peace  smile

It sounds like you wanted someone to do natural makeup and you got someone who did Glam makeup...  This happens a lot.  Did you look at his or her portfolio before working with him or her?  That's a dead give-away as to what you are likely to get on a shoot.  Did you point to a makeup shot and say "this is what I want"?   Did you hire a newbie? newbies usually want to see their work.... the hand usually gets lighter over time and with experience.  As someone pointed out....there are shoots that call for more Glam type heavier makeup...again, it's all about communication and as the photographer it's your job to make that clear and you have the control over the camera, why would you shoot something you don't like?  Just have them change it if you aren't happy.

Nov 17 12 04:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
rick lesser
Posts: 685
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


The looks in your port seem to be understated as far as makeup goes.  So you have had a makeup artist in the past that gets it.  True, I believe the hair and makeup should be part of a total look. And there are times the makeup should stand out.  If your having a problem, maybe it isn't the makeup artist went too far, maybe you chose the wrong model to carry the look?  Are you looking to build a book or were you having trouble with not getting the vision you needed for a paying client?  Why you wouldn't discuss the makeup in the beginning of the shoot when you are testing lighting, or how the model looks in the first few shots is beyond me?  I would never let a photographer start a shoot without checking my work in the lens or on a computer set up before the shoot got underway.  It's ridiculous to think otherwise.  Your in charge, next time speak up.  R-
Nov 17 12 05:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LisaJohnson
Posts: 10,525
Nashville, Tennessee, US


SO TRUE.  It's about PERSPECTIVE.  My God, I do not understand this kind of egotistical rant from the OP.  It's not helpful in the least for any photographer to have that kind of closed mind, IMHO.

TheMakeupMan wrote:
That's like me posting in the photographers forum and basicly say
The role of the photographer is to be the monkey that pushes the button

Nov 19 12 04:30 pm  Link  Quote 
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