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AdelaideJohn1967
Posts: 12,489
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


First off this is a huge story and I'm sad for the victims. Now having said that is this some new kind of hysteria that it seems to come up in the media a lot?

Today forget commies, the new hysteria is "peds under the beds" or on street corners or public loos..... That's the new hysteria so to speak IMHO...

For those of you from the UK so I'd love to know your thoughts on this whole Jimmy Saville thing........We're only just hearing about it now in Australia with lots of big names being questioned..

It's just my opinion but this is getting to the point of becoming a potential witch hunt...

Could it be that a lot of innocent people might be charged and it will become a he said /she/he said affair. Unless they can find evidence that is foolproof. The finger pointing just will not end.

Why are they only going after the dead and half dead when there are bigger fish to fry. And even here the various inquiries have very limited terms of reference.

And I know these things go high up and are well orchestrated. Even here....


So where is the real fire????
Dec 01 12 06:38 am  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


The Brit papers make a meal this stuff exactly and precisely for one reason - you can't libel the dead. They could make him out to be Pol Pot, Hitler, and Stalin all wrapped into one, they could accuse him of torture and murder even, much less groping or screwing some teenage groupies 40 years ago, and no one can do a thing about it. There is no press blackout as for a live accused and not only in defamation but also no risk of contempt of court either.

They are also doing exactly the same to others now departed.

With the live ones you also get the likes of very much alive Lord McAlpine who has the money to throw at it, and who was publicly accused of being a kiddy-diddler as well. He's on the path to sue upwards of 10,000 individuals for defamation, the lion's share of which occurred on-line via Twitter, based so far on roughly 1000 primary tweets and 9000 additional re-tweets,... and there have already been some settlements which does not bode well for the others.

Studio36
Dec 01 12 09:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


Well, that, and the Brits really love a good witch-hunt. Operation Ore, anyone?
Dec 01 12 09:44 am  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


Lohkee wrote:
Well, that, and the Brits really love a good witch-hunt. Operation Ore, anyone?

Oh, God, yes! It's like a national sport.

Studio36

Dec 01 12 09:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


Yep. A lot of good people completely destroyed by false evidence. Very sad, really. Any semblance of reason and good evidence was quite happily tossed to the wind. Feeding frenzy would be a gross understatement sad
Dec 01 12 10:03 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Abigail Rose Hill
Posts: 538
Newcastle upon Tyne, England, United Kingdom


Allegedly, if this is all true of course (and it's sure looking that way), there are a LOT of young people who have had their lives changed irrevocably by one man's twisted perception of what is ok and what isn't (and his accomplices of course).

I don't like the idea its only really come out of the woodwork since he's passed but I appreciate that sexual assault takes a lot of courage to report, no less when it's someone as high profile as Jimmy Savile and co.
Dec 01 12 01:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Viking Models
Posts: 1,553
Huntington Beach, California, US


Lohkee wrote:
Yep. A lot of good people completely destroyed by false evidence. Very sad, really. Any semblance of reason and good evidence was quite happily tossed to the wind. Feeding frenzy would be a gross understatement sad

People do not become life long buggerers without the aid and comfort of others. Same thing for Sandusky, he was one of many.

Dec 01 12 02:09 pm  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


Abi Hill wrote:
Allegedly, if this is all true of course (and it's sure looking that way), there are a LOT of young people who have had their lives changed irrevocably by one man's twisted perception of what is ok and what isn't (and his accomplices of course).

I don't like the idea its only really come out of the woodwork since he's passed but I appreciate that sexual assault takes a lot of courage to report, no less when it's someone as high profile as Jimmy Savile and co.

That was then. Where were the parents?

Today? One can often ask the very same question!

Studio36

Dec 01 12 02:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
surinity
Posts: 1,481
Pattaya, Central, Thailand


I must admit I have a perverted sense of humor, but the interview with the lady who ran the girls school for intelligent girls who couldnt quite fit into society but would do anything for one of jimmies cigarettes, apparently, is quite surreal
Dec 01 12 02:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,490
Houston, Texas, US


Lohkee wrote:
Well, that, and the Brits really love a good witch-hunt. Operation Ore, anyone?

"Ore" means "Hooker" in British smile

Dec 01 12 02:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


Viking Models wrote:
People do not become life long buggerers without the aid and comfort of others. Same thing for Sandusky, he was one of many.

I worked cases from Ore, did you? People killed themselves when accused of crimes they (provably) could not have committed even if they had wanted to. It was a witch-hut based on false evidence from the U.S. (credit card fraud anyone?) that the U.K. has since apologized for. Sucks to be a dead person when the apology comes.

Dec 01 12 02:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


rp_photo wrote:

"Ore" means "Hooker" in British smile

News to me, and I grew up there lol

Dec 01 12 02:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
730372
Posts: 1,952
Abbeville, Alabama, US


The latest celebrity to have been interviewed is reported by friends to be suicidal. I hope the police have acted appropriately otherwise the backlash will be overwhelming - particularly given this particular celebrity's widely held popularity. He can't be identified currently - not that that's much protection!
Dec 01 12 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


surinity wrote:
I must admit I have a perverted sense of humor, but the interview with the lady who ran the girls school for intelligent girls who couldnt quite fit into society but would do anything for one of jimmies cigarettes, apparently, is quite surreal

In another recent but completely different case the social workers involved publicly voiced the opinion that the girls had made "a lifestyle choice" [to give away a little pussy in exchange for other stuff that they wanted - alcohol, drugs and material goods.] These are girls, and boys as well, "in care," but that does not mean that they are in a secure facility [locked up]. Quite the opposite. They are literally free to come and go as they damn well please, and some of them do exactly that.

Looking around my own inner city neighbourhood, I would have to be sympathetic to that view in broad general terms. I used to take one of my dogs to the park in the early hours [3 - 4 AM] and I was never surprised, but always on my guard, encountering 13, 14, and 15 y/o kids on the street at those hours. Sometimes they were clearly drunk, high on drugs, or both, and looking for trouble. Having a large drolly hound with me was an obvious deterrent, however,

Studio36

Dec 01 12 03:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


Maybe I'm dating myself here, but who wasn't boinking their brains out by the time they were 13? No one that I can think of lol
Dec 01 12 03:18 pm  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


Lohkee wrote:
Maybe I'm dating myself here, but who wasn't boinking their brains out by the time they were 13? No one that I can think of lol

True dat. There is one I know in the neighbourhood as we speak, who is 12 [13 now I think] and servicing the local lads in exchange for ????. They are not only screwing their little brains out, but, by any measure, are actually prostituting themselves.

Studio36

Dec 01 12 03:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


studio36uk wrote:

True dat. There is one I know in teh neighbourhood as we speak, who is 12 [13 now I think] and servicing the local lads in exchange for ????. They are not only screwing their little brains out, but, by any measure, are actually prostituting themselves.

Studio36

So, not much has changed from the late 60's? Chuckles. Oh how I miss ol blighty.

Dec 01 12 03:30 pm  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


Lohkee wrote:
So, not much has changed from the late 60's? Chuckles. Oh how I miss ol blighty.

The only change since then [possibly] is the current belief amongst a lot of the "yoof" that oral, anal, and hand-jobs aren't even considered having sex at all.

Studio36

Dec 01 12 03:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


studio36uk wrote:
The only change since then is the current belief amongst a lot of the "yoof" that oral, anal, and hand-jobs aren't even considered having sex at all.

Studio36

These things weren't considered "sex" then lol I think what Americans do not understand is that the "age of consent" is much lower in Europe. Jebus, I was a bar tender when I was 18 (Black Lion Inn, Bristol, Witchurch). 16, you could go to the bar. No problem. Holy crap! By American standards I'm a pedo!!!!!! (and loved every minute of it).

Dec 01 12 03:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Designit - Edward Olson
Posts: 1,629
Eureka, California, US


rp_photo wrote:

"Ore" means "Hooker" in British smile

Wouldn't that be 'Ore as in the Cockney of whore with the H sound silent?

Dec 01 12 03:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


Designit - Edward Olson wrote:

Wouldn't that be 'Ore as in the Cockney of whore with the H sound silent?

Nope?

Dec 01 12 03:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SAND DIAL
Posts: 5,965
Santa Monica, California, US


Does this have something to do with The Masons?
I did a web search and got 'they were all Masons' or some-such.
Secret Society of buggers?
Dec 01 12 03:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SAND DIAL
Posts: 5,965
Santa Monica, California, US


Lohkee wrote:
Maybe I'm dating myself here, but who wasn't boinking their brains out by the time they were 13? No one that I can think of lol

HUH?

Dec 01 12 03:53 pm  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


SAND DIAL wrote:

Lohkee wrote:
Maybe I'm dating myself here, but who wasn't boinking their brains out by the time they were 13? No one that I can think of lol

HUH?

boinking = screwing = fucking in case you aren't familiar with the word "boinking"  aka "bonking"

As for girls and boys of, say, 13 > 16 ever since the concept of Gillick competence was enshrined into British law the statutory age of consent [nominally 16] has become very flexible when the question is sex with one of their peers. Unless there is some element of coercion or force involved, and a formal complaint is made to the police, prosecutions for u-age sex are very rare.

Studio36

Dec 01 12 04:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AdelaideJohn1967
Posts: 12,489
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


T B O L wrote:
The latest celebrity to have been interviewed is reported by friends to be suicidal. I hope the police have acted appropriately otherwise the backlash will be overwhelming - particularly given this particular celebrity's widely held popularity. He can't be identified currently - not that that's much protection!

That's strange we've been seeing his name in forums everywhere... He did that song "tie me kangaroo down boys" and uses a wobble board for music.

What about the 60s 70s and 80s when rock bands had tons of groupies and lots of sex. I guess now the floodgates will have to open and they'll all come under the microscope and this will open up a HUGE can of worms both socially and ethically.... And still today rock stars and groups do this, but no one checks for ID's or such have they?

What do you think?

Dec 02 12 06:25 am  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


AdelaideJohn1967 wrote:
What do you think?

The government should just bite the bullet and recognise the facts of life on the ground. Then lower the age of consent to, say, 12 and get it over with.

Oz recognises Gillick as a legal concept too. Simples!

Studio36

Dec 02 12 08:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


studio36uk wrote:
The government should just bite the bullet and recognise the facts of life on the ground. Then lower the age of consent to, say, 12 and get it over with.

Oz recognises Gillick as a legal concept too. Simples!

Studio36

Dunno if I can agree with this one. Why should there be an age of consent at all? People gonna do it when they are ready to, well, do it. Nature. You can't, no matter how much you might want to, really control nature via legislation smile

Dec 02 12 08:30 am  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


Lohkee wrote:
Dunno if I can agree with this one. Why should there be an age of consent at all? People gonna do it when they are ready to, well, do it. Nature. You can't, no matter how much you might want to, really control nature via legislation smile

mas simpático

Studio36

Dec 02 12 08:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticPhotography
Posts: 7,699
Buffalo, New York, US


AdelaideJohn1967 wrote:
First off this is a huge story and I'm sad for the victims. Now having said that is this some new kind of hysteria that it seems to come up in the media a lot?

Today forget commies, the new hysteria is "peds under the beds" or on street corners or public loos..... That's the new hysteria so to speak IMHO...

For those of you from the UK so I'd love to know your thoughts on this whole Jimmy Saville thing........We're only just hearing about it now in Australia with lots of big names being questioned..

It's just my opinion but this is getting to the point of becoming a potential witch hunt...

Could it be that a lot of innocent people might be charged and it will become a he said /she/he said affair. Unless they can find evidence that is foolproof. The finger pointing just will not end.

Why are they only going after the dead and half dead when there are bigger fish to fry. And even here the various inquiries have very limited terms of reference.

And I know these things go high up and are well orchestrated. Even here....


So where is the real fire????

I don't know if it's a big deal here or not, but I've never heard of him, if that helps.

Dec 02 12 08:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


ArtisticPhotography wrote:
I don't know if it's a big deal here or not, but I've never heard of him, if that helps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile


He was an icon in the U.K. who did many good things for charity.

Dec 02 12 09:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AdelaideJohn1967
Posts: 12,489
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


studio36uk wrote:

The government should just bite the bullet and recognise the facts of life on the ground. Then lower the age of consent to, say, 12 and get it over with.

Oz recognises Gillick as a legal concept too. Simples!

Studio36

What's a Gillick?

Dec 02 12 01:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,166
Maricopa, Arizona, US


AdelaideJohn1967 wrote:

What's a Gillick?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillick_competence

Dec 02 12 01:28 pm  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


AdelaideJohn1967 wrote:
What's a Gillick?

Gillick competence is a term originating in England and is used in medical law to decide whether a child (16 years or younger) is able to consent to his or her own medical treatment, without the need for parental permission or knowledge. In this case the issue of proscribing contraception. And where a minor [U-16] seeks contraception advice or prescribing it must be reasonably presumed they are already sexually active or considering becoming sexually active. Just as day follows night follows day, and so forth.

The standard is based on a decision of the House of Lords in the case Gillick v West Norfolk and Wisbech Area Health Authority [1985] 3 All ER 402 (HL). The case is binding in England and Wales, and has been approved in Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

The Gillick case involved a health departmental circular advising doctors on the contraception of minors (for this purpose, under sixteens). The circular stated that the prescription of contraception was a matter for the doctor's discretion, and that they could be prescribed to under sixteens without parental consent. This matter was litigated because an activist, Mrs. Victoria Gillick (née Gudgeon), ran an active campaign against the policy. Mrs Gillick sought a declaration that prescribing contraception was illegal because the doctor would commit an offence of encouraging sex with a minor, and that it would be treatment without consent as consent vested in the parent. Mrs Gillick was unsuccessful in the courts.

The House of Lords focussed on the issue of consent rather than a notion of 'parental rights' or parental powers. In fact, the court held that 'parental rights' did not exist, other than to safeguard the best interests of a minor. The majority held that in some circumstances a minor could consent to treatment, and that in these circumstances a parent had no power to veto treatment.

Lord Scarman and Lord Fraser proposed slightly different tests (Lord Bridge agreed with both). Lord Scarman's test is generally considered to be the test of 'Gillick competency'. He required that a child could consent if he or she fully understood the medical treatment that is proposed:

"As a matter of Law the parental right to determine whether or not their minor child below the age of sixteen will have medical treatment terminates if and when the child achieves sufficient understanding and intelligence to understand fully what is proposed." Lord Scarman

The ruling holds particularly significant implications for the legal rights of minor children in England in that it is broader in scope than merely medical consent. It lays down that the authority of parents to make decisions for their minor children is not absolute, but diminishes with the child's evolving maturity; except in situations that are regulated otherwise by statute, the right to make a decision on any particular matter concerning the child shifts from the parent to the child when the child reaches sufficient maturity to be capable of making up his or her own mind on the matter requiring decision.

Because of this court decision the current view is that this case, in legal terms, has implications in areas such as e.g. sexual consent.

The Gillick competence doctrine is part of Australian law: see e.g. DoCS vY [1999] NSWSC 644.

Studio36

Dec 02 12 01:34 pm  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


Lohkee wrote:

AdelaideJohn1967 wrote:
What's a Gillick?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillick_competence

Yup, and where you have someone who is, as it is sometimes said, 13 going on 30 you, as a parent, a policeman, or a prosecutor, have a problem with them and their legal capacity to consent to sex.

Studio36

Dec 02 12 01:37 pm  Link  Quote 
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studio36uk
Posts: 21,657
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


What this all seems to boil down to is that those making the laws, or enforcing them, seem to believe that '50s sit-coms are REAL!!!

LOL

Studio36
Dec 02 12 05:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AdelaideJohn1967
Posts: 12,489
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


This is getting stupid now. People are talking about hauling bands like Led Zeppelin and such into court for fucking groupies..... Because most of them were early to mid teens.   I said this would happen and it's people applying 2012 PC LOGIC to something that was culturally different........

To quote Wikipedia....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupie#In_music

Groupies became prominent in the music scene in the 1960s and 1970s. This was prior to the murder of John Lennon in December 1980, and before security levels for bands increased significantly. Female groupies in particular have a long-standing reputation of being available to celebrities, pop stars, rock stars and other public figures. Led Zeppelin singer Robert Plant is quoted as distinguishing between fans who wanted brief sexual encounters, and "groupies" who travelled with musicians for extended periods of time, acting as a surrogate girlfriend or mother, often taking care of the musician's valuables, drugs, wardrobe, and social life

Dec 02 12 05:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
devpics
Posts: 834
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


Well in case you hadn't noticed uptil now, most previously illegal sexual activities are now redefined as Lifestyle choices and actively promoted in many cases, so now only pedophilia is left to recieve the witch hunting frenzy of the self righteous and boost the careers of do gooders, shock jocks etc etc. So far sad cases, social workers, art photographers, uncles, people who run charitable institutions, musicians, educational staff, fathers in bitchy divorce case and the clergy have been on the sharp end, now they have started on TV personalities. Bus & Tram conductors will probably be next
Dec 03 12 01:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photoimager
Posts: 4,834
Stoke-on-Trent, England, United Kingdom


rp_photo wrote:
"Ore" means "Hooker" in British smile

News to me, I've only heard of Ore in the context of metal deposits in rock.

In my work, by the time the common populace has cottoned on to the slang being used it is already to old to use by those who originated the meaning for the term. I have never heard of the meaning you purport.

By the way, it is International English as opposed to 'in British' and not American English.

Dec 03 12 01:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photoimager
Posts: 4,834
Stoke-on-Trent, England, United Kingdom


OP, over here is now very old news that pops up every so often when it is a slow news day or when another person is found to have been taken in for questioning. There were a few threads on here when he news first broke.

It is a very sad situation for the people involved. If only action had been taken sooner, such as in the 1960s.
Dec 03 12 01:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andy G 323
Posts: 1,218
Bradford, England, United Kingdom


Designit - Edward Olson wrote:
Wouldn't that be 'Ore as in the Cockney of whore with the H sound silent?

The word is whore pronounced hor and is not cockney but does indeed mean prostitute.

Ore is something different.

Dec 03 12 12:07 pm  Link  Quote 
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