login info join!
Forums > Photography Talk > What if I edited it better?? Search   Reply
Makeup Artist
Sabrina Cayne
Posts: 319
Portland, Oregon, US


My question is: What do I do if the version I edited is WAY better and cleaner than the one the photog did but he has already posted the shot the way he edited it?

WAIT....Let me explain before you all jump on the "photog owns all rights" thing wink

As a makeup artist, I do a lot of elaborate concept that usually require a fair amount of processing of the image in post (i.e. re-touching, corrections, backgrounds, etc). And I have a dilemma regarding an image from one of these shoots. I was given the Hi-Rez (photog edited) shot by the photographer to print for my book. I asked permission if I could "practice" my skills editing with the image he gave me. I've learned, after working with too many GWC's that can't or won't edit, to develop my own re-touching/editing techniques.

I had his permission to edit it and I showed him the final shot that he liked, but I feel awkward posting the cleaner version. As one of the credited team members for the shot, I'd prefer my name being on the better image. Not as the editor but as the makeup artist and general collaborator for the shoot. 

What should I do?? Is there a way to post both without it seeming like I'm showing up or bragging?? And I grant you the "artistic license" of what I think is better over what he thinks... However, without actually posting both shots side by side, I can't prove that debate on which is "better". I guess for argument sake, assume mine is better smile

P.S. I haven't posted in forums for a LONG time so I hope this is the right place for this topic smile
Dec 02 12 11:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Imageography
Posts: 6,768
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada


I have done touchup work based on makeup profiles for the MUAs I use, but with that, we discuss the editing workflow before the shoot so we are both on the same page.

Usually, if I'm using a paid MUA, I will let them pick one image, and I will go over that with a fine tooth comb, evening out lipstick, removing eye shadow flecks and so on.

Given your image requirements are most likely going to be different from the photographer, I would just chat them up about it ahead of time and see what kind of agreement you can come to.

As another note, 99% of my MUAs did not know how to use photoshop, I'm not sure how industry standard that is for others. That's why I prefer to edit my own to give to the MUA.
Dec 03 12 12:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,849
Portland, Oregon, US


I can't really speak for anyone but myself.

If your version was better, I would want us all to be using the better version (to maintain consistency.)

As long as an image was retouched with my permission, there should not be a problem.  Without my permission, THEN there IS an issue.

I do ask for an agreement that anyone retouching an image is doing so on behalf of myself (and the team), that I am to see/approve any work before it is made public and that I receive a full resolution/full quality copy of the file.

For me, being a part of a team is working for the best result, and it is the outcome that matters most, and ideally that everyone is very happy with the outcome.
Dec 03 12 12:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,453
Paris, Île-de-France, France


That is going to be a hard one. By posting a version retouched by you, it is saying something that will likely be taken in a way that will end the working relationship with the other. Depending on how open the photographer is, maybe you could make a new partnership and retouch all their photos.

I have had mua ask for further retouches, sometimes mine are left a bit raw, which I can and usually do.

Yet I don't let others work on my images, as I would be hard pressed to find someone that could do it better. There are exceptions though to every case and my opinion of my retouching is only that; an opinion.
Dec 03 12 12:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photo212grapher
Posts: 1,538
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


If the photographer gave you the editing and publishing rights, do not think twice about placing your credits as MUA and photoshop editor on the version you edited.

When I have given others the same rights, I insist they place their names as the ones who edited. Otherwise, a hack job may be thought of as mine, or equally as bad, a fantastic edit might cause someone else to think I can produce the same quality. I know my skills are somewhere in between really poor and expert/wizard.
Dec 03 12 01:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
kevinLi
Posts: 214
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


You can post yours on your website/fb/portfolio whatever and he can have his version on his, whats the problem?
Dec 03 12 02:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
fullmetalphotographer
Posts: 2,739
Fresno, California, US


Sabrina Cayne  wrote:
My question is: What do I do if the version I edited is WAY better and cleaner than the one the photog did but he has already posted the shot the way he edited it?

WAIT....Let me explain before you all jump on the "photog owns all rights" thing wink

As a makeup artist, I do a lot of elaborate concept that usually require a fair amount of processing of the image in post (i.e. re-touching, corrections, backgrounds, etc). And I have a dilemma regarding an image from one of these shoots. I was given the Hi-Rez (photog edited) shot by the photographer to print for my book. I asked permission if I could "practice" my skills editing with the image he gave me. I've learned, after working with too many GWC's that can't or won't edit, to develop my own re-touching/editing techniques.

I had his permission to edit it and I showed him the final shot that he liked, but I feel awkward posting the cleaner version. As one of the credited team members for the shot, I'd prefer my name being on the better image. Not as the editor but as the makeup artist and general collaborator for the shoot. 

What should I do?? Is there a way to post both without it seeming like I'm showing up or bragging?? And I grant you the "artistic license" of what I think is better over what he thinks... However, without actually posting both shots side by side, I can't prove that debate on which is "better". I guess for argument sake, assume mine is better smile

P.S. I haven't posted in forums for a LONG time so I hope this is the right place for this topic smile

Here is the way I look at it beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I am at the stage of my career trivial as a client or TF agreement if someone re edits an image. My head would have exploded a long time ago after dealing with various art directors, and editors. I know some amateurs heads do explode on this issue. I think it is silly.

It depends on the agreement and the relationship you have with the shooter if this is an issue. For me getting onions on my burger is a bigger deal. wink

Dec 03 12 02:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kincaid Blackwood
Posts: 23,315
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Who says yours is “better?”

I'm not being facetious or argumentative.  Nor am I challenging your retouching abilities (the example if which I have not seen).  My point is that better or worse is comparative and subjective.  What is clear is that you prefer your version.  The photographer may like yours but feel as if it is either a.) not better or b.) not necessarily an improvement or c.) unnecessarily altered. 

That being the case (and it is certainly the case), you need to move this from a subjective discussion to an objective one and the way you do that is to ask the question: “how does my version better show my make-up artistry?”

If your version is “better” and does nothing in terms of showing off your skills as a make-up artist, you're going to have a difficult time convincing him that using your version is the way for you to go.  If you merely “like it better” then admit to that, but understand that it is a subjective comparison and a photographer who allowed you to practice your retouching on a photo you collaborated on may not extend you the permission to post it.  If it shows off your make-up artistry, on the other hand, then provide him with your reasoning and state that it is better for you to use the version you used. 

What is it about the retouching that provides potential clients a better idea of what you do as a make up artist?
Dec 03 12 04:52 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
Hunter GWPB
Posts: 1,207
King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US


Talk to the dude!  Don't tell him yours is better. Tell him you did as you discussed.  You practiced.  You like the result.  You would like to post it with a note or credit that you edited and give him credit as the photographer.  He says yes, or no.
Dec 03 12 04:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4,713
Houston, Texas, US


I think this comes down to 2 things.
1. Your opinion of better vs the photographer's.
2. You received permission to edit the image so you shouldn't feel bad about posting it.

Unfortunately, you reworked his image.  It would have been better to start from the RAW file. That way you would have negated any of his work to the image.

As for credits all you can do is add your name to the RETOUCHING credit, since it was partially worked by the photographer.

I would NOT post both shots.  There's no reason to.

You have your MUA's version/vision and they have their Photographer's version/vision.
Dec 03 12 05:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Aaron Lewis Photography
Posts: 5,082
Catskill, New York, US


KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
I think this comes down to 2 things.
1. Your opinion of better vs the photographer's.
2. You received permission to edit the image so you shouldn't feel bad about posting it.

Unfortunately, you reworked his image.  It would have been better to start from the RAW file. That way you would have negated any of his work to the image.

As for credits all you can do is add your name to the RETOUCHING credit, since it was partially worked by the photographer.

I would NOT post both shots.  There's no reason to.

You have your MUA's version/vision and they have their Photographer's version/vision.

+1
This is totally a matter of opinion. You feel you did a better job editing, what if you're the only one that feels that way?

If you feel you're editing skills are adequate then I would work with a photographer who agrees to that. Make arrangements with everyone involved prior to shooting.

Dec 03 12 05:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8,841
Delphos, Ohio, US


If you are editing to the point where you can make any kind of evaluative judgement about which version is "better", then aren't you defeating the purpose of having a makeup portfolio?

Your post makes me wonder who/what to credit for your portfolio... the makeup, the photographer or the retoucher.
Dec 03 12 05:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8,841
Delphos, Ohio, US


KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
You have your MUA's version/vision and they have their Photographer's version/vision.

Approaching work from this perspective is fought with potential pitfalls.

If there is a conflict of vision going on, then one needs to hire the other and be done with it.

Dec 03 12 05:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4,713
Houston, Texas, US


William Kious wrote:
If you are editing to the point where you can make any kind of evaluative judgement about which version is "better", then aren't you defeating the purpose of having a makeup portfolio?

Your post makes me wonder who/what to credit for your portfolio... the makeup, the photographer or the retoucher.

I must say, this entered my mind too...

William Kious wrote:
Approaching work from this perspective is fought with potential pitfalls.

If there is a conflict of vision going on, then one needs to hire the other and be done with it.

LOL Yes. Again, I agree. 
I don't approach work with this intent. But it happens.

When I first read the OP, I thought that the MUA should have paid for the session then it would have been her vision, more than the photographer's.   

However, if this was a TF project..people don't always go in knowing or having full control of the final output as much. It's more a combined effort unless ONE person establishes control of the whole concept from beginning to end.   That would likely be the photographer, since they are looking through the lens and decide when to click the shutter.

Dec 03 12 06:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 1,214
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


It's unclear from your OP whether you have permission from the photographer simply to "practice" your editing on the image in question, or whether you have his go ahead to actually publish the results. It sounds like you asked for the former, which doesn't necessarily grant the latter.
Dec 03 12 06:30 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Sabrina Cayne
Posts: 319
Portland, Oregon, US


William Kious wrote:
If you are editing to the point where you can make any kind of evaluative judgement about which version is "better", then aren't you defeating the purpose of having a makeup portfolio?

Your post makes me wonder who/what to credit for your portfolio... the makeup, the photographer or the retoucher.

I don't know how often, if at all, you work with professional MUA's so I won't judge or take personally your post smile 

Although, to assume that MUA's needs or only uses "special shots" made just for them limits the intention of the collaboration, IMHO. And to assume that just because images are re-touched or cleaned (as is done with every single fashion, beauty and celebrity shot published) it must somehow mean the makeup artist was not up to par, or should not be credited for there work, could be viewed as a very insulting comment. That's the equivalent of saying the model shouldn't get credit her work because you put fairy wings on her in post. That the wardrobe stylist shouldn't get credit because they didn't hand weave the fabric. The photog shouldn't get credit because a filter or light box or ring flash was used instead of natural light.

Everyone uses tools to improve their work. To correct uncontrollable factors in shooting. And there is a difference between editing a photo to change it's feel or intent and re-touching a photo to clean or correct it.

I guess without seeing the before and after I'm talking about it's hard for me to explain what "better" means without people assuming I mean "artistic differences". Unfortunately, posting that here could cause hurt feelings if the photog was sensitive to the criticism.

I do appreciate everyones thoughts on the subject though!! I have heard varying opinions on the subject here and with all my photog friends. Thanks so much for helping me out with this topic, much appreciated big_smile

Dec 03 12 07:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art Silva
Posts: 9,071
Santa Barbara, California, US


Just as a photographer and art director communicate during the project with the stylist, assitants and make up artist so does the person doing the retouching.
Not to sound harsh but stick to what you were hired for, it's a collaborative effort by all and communication is the key to make the final product acceptable by everyone on the job.
Dec 03 12 07:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,987
Buena Park, California, US


Ask permission to use the photo.  Explain you feel it better represents your work as a makeup artist.

Advice, work with photographers that has a finished book that is at a quality level that you need.

oh, fwiw, you're book does not have to match your on-line portfolio.  You could always use the "better" file for your printed book and either use his on-line or not use it on-line at all.
Dec 03 12 07:30 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Sabrina Cayne
Posts: 319
Portland, Oregon, US


Art Silva Photography wrote:
Just as a photographer and art director communicate during the project with the stylist, assitants and make up artist so does the person doing the retouching.
Not to sound harsh but stick to what you were hired for, it's a collaborative effort by all and communication is the key to make the final product acceptable by everyone on the job.

I totally agree with you!! smile Had I been hired I would not care at all what the images then was used for because my compensation had been paid. When its a free collaboration thought, I expect to be able to use an image of quality just like everyone else involved in the project. And to assume that just because it's being used for and MUA port that all I need is some cropped in shot with no effort made in processing to increase it's appeal is insulting.

When the photo posts the image raw right out of his camera and the model posts the shot of her just standing there before any "work" when into the shot, then I'll concede that MUA shots should not have any correction in post.

There is only some much imperfection makeup can cover, lol.

And I did ask, and mine is posted wink

Dec 03 12 07:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rope Couture
Posts: 13
Detroit, Michigan, US


Personally, I would love to have someone else offer, retouching is a lot of work, and I am not a pro at it.

If you took my watermark off, I would be very peeved, but if a graphic designer gave me a better one that credited me, that would be cool.

Some photographers like the straight out of the camera raw look, very bland in my opinion, I like the colors to really pop.   That can make for a totally different image.  Heck, some like it b&w.
Dec 03 12 08:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


Post your version for yourself and send a copy to the photographer. If  he likes yours more, he'll switch.
Dec 03 12 11:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carlos Occidental
Posts: 10,546
Glendora, California, US


Actually, if you have the right to post an image, you have the right to do considerable editing, too.  Contrast and/or brightness and/or saturation.

As long as you're not putting an alligator head on the model, there's really no legal harm done.  (According to my agent/lawyer.)
Dec 03 12 11:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,769
Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain


MC Photo wrote:
Post your version for yourself and send a copy to the photographer. If  he likes yours more, he'll switch.

This

Except I would send the version to the Photographer first and get his consent to use the version you have modified. It's the proper form unless otherwise stated.

Dec 03 12 01:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kincaid Blackwood
Posts: 23,315
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Sabrina Cayne  wrote:
That's the equivalent of saying the model shouldn't get credit her work because you put fairy wings on her in post. That the wardrobe stylist shouldn't get credit because they didn't hand weave the fabric. The photog shouldn't get credit because a filter or light box or ring flash was used instead of natural light.

Natural light and artificial light are part and parcel of photography.  Styling clothes is different than designing clothes.  A model in a composite image which has digital affects added still does his/her job.

All of which is beside the point.  Without a quantifiable or observable comparison of a yours-vs-his (I'm not saying we should get such a thing, just clarify the parameters upon which anyone provides advice), we can only speak in vague terms as to how you should handle it.  And with many people that is going to start with "How does what you've done enhance the photo?"  If you can't quantify and articulate that (not for us, but for him) then you'll have trouble convincing him to let you use it and use it himself.

Dec 03 12 07:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SKITA Studios
Posts: 1,564
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Got me curious....can we see both images? :-)
Dec 03 12 07:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
mac13
Posts: 90
Frederick, Maryland, US


This is tricky! I have done the same thing with another photographer that is also on MM he gave me permission to practice my photo shop skills and as long as I gave him credit for the photo work I would be fine. I did and posted the image on my site and I got bombarded by him and his fellow people stating that I stole the image and that I needed it taken down! I followed up with the site moderators and showed them the email stating that I had the "Artistic right" to alter the image and to give him credit. They didn't shut my site down however my rep is now questioned by anyone who saw the image in the first place... My words of wisdom...Make a print out of it so you can show to people and explain that you did the editing and the make up. Otherwise you are opening up a can of worms if the photographer looks at it the wrong way at ANY time!
Dec 03 12 07:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


Illuminate wrote:

This

Except I would send the version to the Photographer first and get his consent to use the version you have modified. It's the proper form unless otherwise stated.

I'm pretty sure she had permission at the time the image was made.

Dec 03 12 08:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8,841
Delphos, Ohio, US


Sabrina Cayne  wrote:
Although, to assume that MUA's needs or only uses "special shots" made just for them limits the intention of the collaboration, IMHO. And to assume that just because images are re-touched or cleaned (as is done with every single fashion, beauty and celebrity shot published) it must somehow mean the makeup artist was not up to par, or should not be credited for there work, could be viewed as a very insulting comment. That's the equivalent of saying the model shouldn't get credit her work because you put fairy wings on her in post. That the wardrobe stylist shouldn't get credit because they didn't hand weave the fabric. The photog shouldn't get credit because a filter or light box or ring flash was used instead of natural light.

You can get as defensive about the issue as you like, but the problem remains. How much of your work is clean makeup and how much is retouching? As a photographer, it makes a HELL of a lot of difference to me when I'm hiring someone for makeup.

Sabrina Cayne  wrote:
I guess without seeing the before and after I'm talking about it's hard for me to explain what "better" means without people assuming I mean "artistic differences". Unfortunately, posting that here could cause hurt feelings if the photog was sensitive to the criticism.

Exactly. And it's convenient to hide behind the photographer's "feelings". You have ALREADY critiqued the photographer's work in your OP, so your hedge here is pretty damn interesting indeed.

Post the originals. Without that, no one here can really offer you an objective opinion.

Dec 03 12 10:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,860
Santa Ana, California, US


Personally, unless it's a tear, I don't want to see images with much retouching at all in a artist's port. The retouching leaves me wondering what the actual contribution the makeup artist is going to bring to my images, without having to enhance through a questionable amount of post.
I want to know that if I provide a model with great skin, that an MUA can help produce images that could present with zero retouching.
Dec 03 12 10:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8,841
Delphos, Ohio, US


Sabrina Cayne  wrote:
I asked permission if I could "practice" my skills editing with the image he gave me. I've learned, after working with too many GWC's that can't or won't edit, to develop my own re-touching/editing techniques.

Do you delineate between practice and intent to publish?

Sabrina Cayne  wrote:
I had his permission to edit it and I showed him the final shot that he liked, but I feel awkward posting the cleaner version. As one of the credited team members for the shot, I'd prefer my name being on the better image. Not as the editor but as the makeup artist and general collaborator for the shoot.

Again, prior to arriving at your "better version", did you ask the photographer for permission to publish the image to portfolio (or did you leave him under the impression that you were "practicing"?)

Seems to me that you want to call it a collaboration when it's convenient, but you want the lion's share of the credit (which may or may not be deserved.) If you want your cake and to eat it, too, open a secondary retouching account. Or start hiring your photographers and pay them - then you can do whatever you want with the images.

Dec 03 12 10:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Diana Jo
Posts: 787
Marysville, Washington, US


The bottom line here is the only person who can give you an answer is the photographer. Approach them with a simple statement of I prefer how version B (yours) shows my skills. "Is it ok if I publish it on my profile with a note stating you're the photographer NOT the retoucher?"

It's really easy. They can say yes or no, but that's their prerogative.

I've had someone request MORE retouching preferring more of a "glowy" (think glamour mag) skin look. Wayyyy more retouching than I typically do and was a royal PITA since the model's skin was not the greatest (with a not good make up artist).

As a result turn around time took a lot longer (I had personal issues after the request for more retouching) and their were hard feelings all the way around. We didn't work together again because our styles didn't match.

In the future, I would recommend NOT working with photographer's who don't retouch make-up to your taste or obtaining permission to use your retouches in your shoot agreement.
Dec 11 12 03:40 pm  Link  Quote 
  Search   Reply



main | browse | casting/travel | forums | shout box | help | advertising | contests | share | join the mayhem

more modelmayhem on: | | | edu

©2006-2014 ModelMayhem.com. All Rights Reserved.
MODEL MAYHEM is a registered trademark.
Toggle Worksafe Mode: Off | On
Terms | Privacy | Careers