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12last
Photographer
Dan OMell
Posts: 1,335
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


Disagree?
Dec 03 12 05:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl JW Johnston
Posts: 9,399
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


nah. bout sums it up
Dec 03 12 05:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Laurence Moan
Posts: 7,667
Huntington Beach, California, US


...if you're sponsoring group shoots.
Dec 03 12 05:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hero Foto
Posts: 878
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Laurence Moan wrote:
...if you're sponsoring group shoots.

+1

Dec 03 12 05:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dean Johnson Photo
Posts: 56,099
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


From who's, and what, perspective are you asking?

If there are 4 photographers in any given market, those 4 will certainly have more work offers then if there are 400 photographers available in that market.

So, for those people shopping around for photographers there can never be enough, good to have lots of choices...but for those photographers that are trying to make a living, I would say yes, there can be too many.
Dec 03 12 05:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 862
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


Dan OMell wrote:
Disagree?

Yeah. Have you BEEN to a gig lately? Everyone's suddenly a band photographer....

/rant/rant/rant/rant/rant

Dec 03 12 05:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,774
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Less PHotographers means more opportunities

I think many of us from the pre digital age would agree
Dec 03 12 05:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,212
Salem, Oregon, US


if you're a camera store
Dec 03 12 05:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hero Foto
Posts: 878
Phoenix, Arizona, US


twoharts wrote:
if you're a camera store

+1

Dec 03 12 05:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hero Foto
Posts: 878
Phoenix, Arizona, US


WAY TOO MANY SHOOTERS ... it's sad really ...

been shooting for awhile and I've experienced an explosion of "competition" ...
shooters willing to shoot for free what I would get good money for ...

Companies are alert to this as well, choosing the GWC over experience ...

Same in the sports venues ...
sponsors are starting to hire anyone with a camera and pay just above minimum wage for gigs ...

Same with promo work too ...

Super saturated markets SUCK ...
Dec 03 12 05:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SuperWink
Posts: 167
Carlsbad, California, US


Hero Foto wrote:

+1

+2

Dec 03 12 06:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Raoul Isidro Images
Posts: 5,981
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


...but


...but


Everyone is a photographer!

(or a sleeper cell photographer)

.
Dec 03 12 06:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Urban Stylz Photo
Posts: 2,669
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


Among all fields I would say Photographers has to be the one with the most clones.  Not everyone who owns a white lab coat is a scientist....not everyone who owns a guitar is a recording artist...not everyone that owns a computer is a programmer...yet everyone who owns a digital camera seems to think they are professional photographers...SAD
Dec 03 12 06:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
ArtistryImage
Posts: 2,708
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Dan OMell wrote:
there can never be too many photographers

so totally agree... lots more work for vanity services... i.e. hair & make-up smile

Dec 03 12 06:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
fullmetalphotographer
Posts: 2,691
Fresno, California, US


I really like shooting against others. One of my favorite things is to see how another shooter see the same event. When I shoot a news event I would compare what I shot with that of the competition.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3219/2882780193_5da6036979.jpg
BudgetVeto11091708 by FullMetalPhotographer, on Flickr

I especially like it when shooting sports like MMA and Football.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2072/2712728347_90f5fa1758.jpg
PFC86071908 by FullMetalPhotographer, on Flickr
Dec 03 12 08:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image Works Photography
Posts: 2,890
Orlando, Florida, US


Hero Foto wrote:
WAY TOO MANY SHOOTERS ... it's sad really ...

been shooting for awhile and I've experienced an explosion of "competition" ...
shooters willing to shoot for free what I would get good money for ...

Companies are alert to this as well, choosing the GWC over experience ...

Same in the sports venues ...
sponsors are starting to hire anyone with a camera and pay just above minimum wage for gigs ...

Same with promo work too ...

Super saturated markets SUCK ...

The ones benefiting from all of this are the camera manufacturers. Seems like the industry has been chastised by the many GWC doing it for free. They do a great job at it. Some model asked me how much I charge for my serivices. I gave her some set prices- later I saw her shooting for free with some GWC. The weddings might be the last frontier. Thats been slowly been taken over by the $100 shooters. If I depended on photography I would be shooting down to my underwear smile

Dec 03 12 11:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Glenn Liam Kelly
Posts: 41
Sarina, Queensland, Australia


I can certainly see why good professional photographers get pissed off at the "I'll shoot your wedding and give you photos on a CD" crowd. Things certainly get tough when a town of 50k people has 20 people running their hobby businesses.
Dec 04 12 12:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,551
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Glenn Liam Kelly wrote:
I can certainly see why good professional photographers get pissed off at the "I'll shoot your wedding and give you photos on a CD" crowd. Things certainly get tough when a town of 50k people has 20 people running their hobby businesses.

I don't get pissed at them at all. All they are doing is fulfilling a service for a customer who could never afford me to begin with anyway. It was either that photographer or nothing. I can assure you, I don't miss a house payment because some newb photographer is shooting a $300 wedding for a couple who's entire wedding budget was less than what I charge to shoot a ceremony.

Dec 04 12 12:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sourcelight Photography
Posts: 245
BOISE, Idaho, US


Yes, we definitely need more, more, more, and more photographers.  The sooner the rate card hits the bottom, the sooner I can finally, officially, retire from actually shooting photos and go full-time into teaching all these new pros how to focus their cameras.
Dec 04 12 12:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photoimager
Posts: 4,803
Stoke-on-Trent, England, United Kingdom


In most situations where taking photographs I completely disagree. Having people at an event as chancers getting in the way of people who have been contracted to be there is more than a nuisance. 'Group shoots' with no control over who is actually working the set are not worth thinking about. Plenty more scenarios.

To help keep equipment development going then the market for the equipment needs a higher number of photographers than professional photography can sustain.

The 'bottom' has fallen out of the market, not just because of the freebie photographers but also because of the 'in-store' units that put up a background, get a few lights, show their retail staff how to press the button and charge fee that is below what a photographer's costs would be. They then rely on upselling to make their money. Their staffing and premises costs are part of their general store costs so if they do not manage to upsell they have not lost out.
Dec 04 12 01:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Drew Smith Photography
Posts: 5,209
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom


Urban Stylz Photography wrote:
Among all fields I would say Photographers has to be the one with the most clones.  Not everyone who owns a white lab coat is a scientist....not everyone who owns a guitar is a recording artist...not everyone that owns a computer is a programmer...yet everyone who owns a digital camera seems to think they are professional photographers...SAD

That isn't necessarily the problem. The problem is when the Customer thinks anyone that owns a DSLR is a pro photographer. smile

Dec 04 12 02:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photography by Riddell
Posts: 631
Hemel Hempstead, England, United Kingdom


Photographers as in hobby photographers?

Professional photographers?

Or photographers who are awful, yet think they are a professional?
Well there is already way, way too many of them. Even one is too many.
Dec 04 12 02:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
realistgva
Posts: 420
Plan-les-Ouates, Geneva, Switzerland


Yes there are many out there. But their motivations are different.

Many just enjoy capturing moments
Others try to become Pro's
and others are real professionals that make a living out of it.

In all categories there is all level of quality from crap to totally awesome.

I am not a professional (yet) and don't plan to make this a full-time job. I have a pricing that is however what pro's around charge here and in many cases more.
That being said I am willing to do it for less/free it it moves me forward with my photography.

For a long time I had a hard time to call my self  a professional until I saw some people who make a living out of it and how bad they where and not only in the picture taking area but customer attention, marketing and business expertise.

Yes it requires a lot of hard work to stand out from the crowd and make a decent income.

But take sports as a comparison see how many thousands practice a sport and how many make a living and how many earns super start money.
Dec 04 12 02:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gabby57
Posts: 367
Coppell, Texas, US


Shot By Adam wrote:

I don't get pissed at them at all. All they are doing is fulfilling a service for a customer who could never afford me to begin with anyway. It was either that photographer or nothing. I can assure you, I don't miss a house payment because some newb photographer is shooting a $300 wedding for a couple who's entire wedding budget was less than what I charge to shoot a ceremony.

Very well spoken! 

Another point alluded to by another poster up the thread about camera manufacturers.  Pause for a minute or two and think about how many of these manufacturers would still be in business if not for the consumer grade and enthusiast grade markets, and how much more the limited variety of equipment would cost.

Dec 04 12 06:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,551
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Gabby57 wrote:

Very well spoken! 

Another point alluded to by another poster up the thread about camera manufacturers.  Pause for a minute or two and think about how many of these manufacturers would still be in business if not for the consumer grade and enthusiast grade markets, and how much more the limited variety of equipment would cost.

It's even to a point more than that though. I actually use the cheapo photographers as reference point when talking with potential clients. I'm never afraid to tell one of my clients that they can hire a photographer for 1/4 of what I charge as most of them know it already anyway. The reason they are on the phone with ME is because I provide a service that the lowballers don't provide. It's as simple as that.

I'm shooting a wedding on December 12th and I'm charging them a premium for doing so (12-12-12 wedding). I booked the shoot back in January after I had been getting inquiries about that date for months prior. Vegas is a big destination spot for quirky wedding dates like this and most of the chapels hire extra staff and some even have temporary pastors hired to accommodate the huge volume of weddings they shoot on these kinds of days. I remember one of the conversations I had with the bride, who was the one who booked me. She was telling me how she was seeing ads around online and on Craigslist for photographers for $700 that would shoot her wedding ceremony in her church, her reception (for up to 3 hours), the formals, a pre-wedding engagement shoot, and even include a photo album and extra prints. All that, and she's still on the phone with me. Why? Because I provide something in my work that is worth paying several times that amount but there is more to it than that as well, and it's something most photographers fail to grasp.

One of the constants of the universe I rank right up there with the speed of light is that 99% of all photographers are horribly shitty salespeople. I know so many photographers who couldn't sell a life preserver to a drowning man and yet just assume that because they have a website and a facebook fan page that customers should be banging down their doors. Some of them eventually figure out how to get the customers to call before they quit the business a few years later but then, when they have them on the hook, they can't ever land the fish in the boat.

The issue then becomes that since most photographers are unable or unwilling to recognize the weaknesses in their business or business model, they then look to scapegoats and the lowball photographers are easy targets. It's a lot easier to point the finger at a photographer willing to shoot a wedding for gas money as the source of their own failures in business rather than to recognize that their business, and the person running it, has weaknesses and fatal flaws.

http://www.shotbyadam.com/images/photography-success-chart.jpg

Dec 04 12 08:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Is this the setup for a "how many photographers does it take to screw in a light bulb" joke?
Dec 04 12 08:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,444
Paris, Île-de-France, France


Everyone who has a phone is a photographer now.
Cameras aren't necessary.

Neither are photographers.


Someone summed up something the other day, if NEwton was to start up in our times would anyone recognise his talent?
Dec 04 12 08:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Glenn Liam Kelly wrote:
I can certainly see why good professional photographers get pissed off at the "I'll shoot your wedding and give you photos on a CD" crowd. Things certainly get tough when a town of 50k people has 20 people running their hobby businesses.

I never understood that. Usually the photographers who get pissed at the lowballers are the ones who don't understand their target market or they overestimate their talent.

I don't shoot weddings but I'll use that as an example because there is such a wide range of fees. If I charge $2500 for a wedding, why do I care that another photographer is charging, and getting, $200? I'm not targeting my business to those customers. They are irrelevant to me. So that photographer is just filling a niche that has no bearing on my business whatsoever. Why would that make me upset? It's not like that client, willing to pay $200, would choose my $2500 fee if that photographer didn't exist.

The problem, and anger, arises when a photographer doesn't know their market and can't effectively position themselves. If I totally suck AND I charge $2500 then I'm screwed and thinking that EVERYONE is a potential client and everyone with a camera is competition.

I don't think the CEO of Ruth Chris Steakhouse feels that they're losing out on business because McDonald's offers Angus Burgers.

Dec 04 12 08:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photography by Riddell
Posts: 631
Hemel Hempstead, England, United Kingdom


Shot By Adam wrote:
http://www.shotbyadam.com/images/photography-success-chart.jpg

This graph is a really good example of why so many useless photographers think they they have such a great chance of becoming a professional photographer.

If you follow this path you may make a little bit of money, but ultimately you'll be a shyster, and most likely soon fail, with lots of angry customers very disappointed with the quality of your work

However if the quality of your work is consistantly stunning and you have just general people and business skills you'll have people coming to you without having to spend time and money marketing.

Dec 04 12 10:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hero Foto
Posts: 878
Phoenix, Arizona, US


while knowing who your target audience is great ... you've failed to address other markets ... wedding shooter is only ONE INDUSTRY ... I shoot in multiple industries and know those markets very well ... but with the over saturation of GWC's; I'm friggin' starving in those markets ... and have chosen to dump most of them ... the companies I would shoot for are hiring folks at minimum wage for gigs ... heck even EPG (Marathon) is now only hiring minimum wagers ... go figure ... and forget about promo work ... every dick/jane with a camera is in that market just for "the exposure" ... and companies KNOW THIS ... it saves their bottom lines ...
Dec 04 12 10:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Photography by Riddell wrote:
However if the quality of your work is consistantly stunning and you have just general people and business skills you'll have people coming to you without having to spend time and money marketing.

That might be the single most silly post I've ever read.

People don't seek out or come to people they've never heard of. How do you think the known photographers became KNOWN? Sitting on their couch?

You're insinuating that anyone who does any marketing is automatically a shyster. I'm curious why you would associate marketing with some distasteful or less-than-acceptable practices?

You seem to have a very ignorant view of what marketing really is. But good luck thinking that your work alone, sitting in a portfolio that nobody sees, is going to garner you any financial rewards or otherwise.

Dec 04 12 10:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photography by Riddell
Posts: 631
Hemel Hempstead, England, United Kingdom


Michael Pandolfo wrote:
You're insinuating that anyone who does any marketing is automatically a shyster. I'm curious why you would associate marketing with some distasteful or less-than-acceptable practices?

You are a shyster if you are heavily marketing / promoting or whatever phrase you want to use a product or service that simply cannot backup what you are promoting.

Quite honestly anyone with enough money and therefore marketing resources can promote anything so heavily and get its name known so well and widely that no matter how poor a product or service it is, people will come to you.

Therefore in this case, with photography you need to be an excellent photographer in the first place, and able to produce quality, consistant images in the first place. Then you can promote / market yourself.

If you are spending all your time and money on marketing without spending it on actual skills, equipment and the whole package that makes a professional photographer then you are most definetly a shyster.

and that graph implied that marketing is much more important that skill / experience and the whole rounded package.

Dec 04 12 12:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,551
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Photography by Riddell wrote:
Quite honestly anyone with enough money and therefore marketing resources can promote anything so heavily and get its name known so well and widely that no matter how poor a product or service it is, people will come to you.

Therefore in this case, with photography you need to be an excellent photographer in the first place, and able to produce quality, consistant images in the first place. Then you can promote / market yourself.

If you are spending all your time and money on marketing without spending it on actual skills, equipment and the whole package that makes a professional photographer then you are most definetly a shyster.

and that graph implied that marketing is much more important that skill / experience and the whole rounded package.

Spoken like a true pauper. What you just said is absolute, complete, 100% bullshit. If you EVER think that the product itself is more important than the marketing and selling of that product you have a business model on a one way ticket to bankruptcy. I'm not saying that having a great product isn't important, but without the ability to get it to market and sell it, it's worthless. There are countless products invented every year that you will never see on a store shelf because the person who invented it had no ability to get it to a market that would buy it from them, and when they did find the opportunity, they didn't know how to sell it to anyone.

You see this guy...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Ansel_Adams_and_camera.jpg/250px-Ansel_Adams_and_camera.jpg

You know him as one of the most famous photographers who's ever lived not because he took nice photos of Yosemite, it's because someone liked his work enough to sponsor him and commission his work in some galleries to which was the catalyst for his success. The truth is, LOTS of people were out photographing nature and landscapes but the reason Adams' work is so world famous is because someone knew how to market and sell his work to people who would buy it. The truth is, Ansel Adams would have fallen by the waste side of obscurity if it wasn't for someone doing this for him.

You see this guy...

http://dirtycreative.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Terry-Richardson.jpg

There are probably more threads started about him on Model Mayhem than any other photographer, by far. Some say he's a genius and others think his work is, at best, mediocre. The reason he's so famous though and the reason everyone wants to shoot with him is most certainly ---NOT--- because his work is so outstanding. It's because he knows how to market himself and he knows how to sell his services at top dollar because of his branding.

I can go on and on and on and on about this but it's just going to be redundant. The truth is, the world is full of educated and talented derelicts. If you think that your product alone is going to be the sole factor in why a customer buys from you over anther person is spoken from the perspective of someone who is completely clueless as to how sales work in even the most elementary capacity.

I can give you a very long list of photographers that I know that just ooze talent...and can't make a single penny in photography. Why? Because they don't know how to market themselves and, more importantly, they don't know how to close a sale. There is no question that having a good product is a corner stone to a successful business, but it takes a whole lot more than just that to be successful.

Dec 04 12 10:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Digital Czar
Posts: 933
Oak Park, Illinois, US


Dan OMell wrote:
Disagree?

Too many cheapens the product...coupled with no price of entry and the ability to sell work at a fair price can be compromised. I suppose though that only matters when you're doing real assignments with real clients breathing down your neck as those are the market you're selling to...

Dec 04 12 10:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Digital Czar
Posts: 933
Oak Park, Illinois, US


Shot By Adam wrote:

Spoken like a true pauper. What you just said is absolute, complete, 100% bullshit. If you EVER think that the product itself is more important than the marketing and selling of that product you have a business model on a one way ticket to bankruptcy. I'm not saying that having a great product isn't important, but without the ability to get it to market and sell it, it's worthless. There are countless products invented every year that you will never see on a store shelf because the person who invented it had no ability to get it to a market that would buy it from them, and when they did find the opportunity, they didn't know how to sell it to anyone.

You see this guy...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Ansel_Adams_and_camera.jpg/250px-Ansel_Adams_and_camera.jpg

You know him as one of the most famous photographers who's ever lived not because he took nice photos of Yosemite, it's because someone liked his work enough to sponsor him and commission his work in some galleries to which was the catalyst for his success. The truth is, LOTS of people were out photographing nature and landscapes but the reason Adams' work is so world famous is because someone knew how to market and sell his work to people who would buy it. The truth is, Ansel Adams would have fallen by the waste side of obscurity if it wasn't for someone doing this for him.

You see this guy...

http://dirtycreative.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Terry-Richardson.jpg

There are probably more threads started about him on Model Mayhem than any other photographer, by far. Some say he's a genius and others think his work is, at best, mediocre. The reason he's so famous though and the reason everyone wants to shoot with him is most certainly ---NOT--- because his work is so outstanding. It's because he knows how to market himself and he knows how to sell his services at top dollar because of his branding.

I can go on and on and on and on about this but it's just going to be redundant. The truth is, the world is full of educated and talented derelicts. If you think that your product alone is going to be the sole factor in why a customer buys from you over anther person is spoken from the perspective of someone who is completely clueless as to how sales work in even the most elementary capacity.

I can give you a very long list of photographers that I know that just ooze talent...and can't make a single penny in photography. Why? Because they don't know how to market themselves and, more importantly, they don't know how to close a sale. There is no question that having a good product is a corner stone to a successful business, but it takes a whole lot more than just that to be successful.

While a large part of this is true, Adams also had created two things. First an impeccable product with his images. Second, the "Zone System" which added a mystique...one that came of a necessity he saw(no one else invented it did they?) for he knew he couldn't change the light, only try an wait for "good light" to do the photograph he saw and with that invented the zone system as a means of controlling what he got! Theoretically that was a negative that printed a full tonal range(which he controlled based on how he wanted things to look) at a minimum exposure time(as in the time for clear film base). After that, he could do whatever darkroom adjustments in printing he wanted, but he got to that point faster and more controllable.

So he created an "aura" if you will around his work in addition to being good images...which was the product that was marketed. Same, btw, could be said for Avedon, Penn, Halsman, Kane, and a few others though they all had distinctly different vision and subject matter....and POV.

Dec 04 12 10:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Jewett
Posts: 2,428
al-Marsā, Tunis, Tunisia


Photographers, sure spend a lot of time whining about the flood of newb's.  You know, I've never seen a model thread where they opine, "Gee.  Everyone thinks they can model now.  No cost of entry, internet and networking sites to promote yourself..."  Maybe we should ask them how they deal with the competition? smile
Dec 04 12 11:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Peach Jones
Posts: 6,224
Champaign, Illinois, US


Hero Foto wrote:
WAY TOO MANY SHOOTERS ... it's sad really ...

been shooting for awhile and I've experienced an explosion of "competition" ...
shooters willing to shoot for free what I would get good money for ...

Companies are alert to this as well, choosing the GWC over experience ...

Same in the sports venues ...
sponsors are starting to hire anyone with a camera and pay just above minimum wage for gigs ...

Same with promo work too ...

Super saturated markets SUCK ...

+1000!!

Dec 04 12 11:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sonn
Posts: 337
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


I just started getting set up on facebook and have added about 400 local photographers and models.

The biggest shock was at just how many shoots are getting done and uploaded to facebook every day...

And thats only from 400 people, a tiny percentage of whats going on in my city.

I now realise i probably dont even see 1% of the work done in my city, and there are so many more photographers in my city than i imagined.

Still there seems to be more models than photographers so thats a good thing.
Dec 04 12 11:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photography by Riddell
Posts: 631
Hemel Hempstead, England, United Kingdom


Shot By Adam wrote:
Spoken like a true pauper. What you just said is absolute, complete, 100% bullshit. If you EVER think that the product itself is more important than the marketing and selling of that product you have a business model on a one way ticket to bankruptcy.

Sorry to suprise you, but I have been in business over 20 years and doing pretty nicely thank you. And I've always put the product, customer service and satisfaction way, way, way before marketing.

Its this attitude that marketing is king which has largely contributed to the world financally going down the tubes.

Dec 05 12 01:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Glenn Hall - Fine Art
Posts: 431
Townsville, Queensland, Australia


Photography by Riddell wrote:

Sorry to suprise you, but I have been in business over 20 years and doing pretty nicely thank you. And I've always put the product, customer service and satisfaction way, way, way before marketing.

Its this attitude that marketing is king which has largely contributed to the world financally going down the tubes.

Yup, I am 100% with you on this one. One can spam the "market" with advertising as much as one likes in an attempt to sell a crap product, but sooner or later, they all crash and burn

Dec 05 12 02:23 am  Link  Quote 
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