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Photographer
Karl JW Johnston
Posts: 9,400
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


http://www.petapixel.com/2012/12/04/pho … s-outrage/

A lot of outrage over this image..what do you think ? Should the photographer be attacked for not doing more ? Is it possible he could've done more ? If you were him what would you have done ?
Dec 04 12 10:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L A U B E N H E I M E R
Posts: 8,395
Seattle, Washington, US


the whole thing is horrible.   ):

shame on the new york post for creating that cover.
Dec 04 12 11:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John M Hoyt
Posts: 344
Greenville, South Carolina, US


Mark Laubenheimer wrote:
the whole thing is horrible.   ):

shame on the new york post for creating that cover.

When you don't have an actual train wreck to photograph for the news, you have to use whatever you can.  Hrmmm maybe the photographer paid the bum to push the guy?  Nah.

Dec 04 12 11:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carlos Occidental
Posts: 10,544
Pasadena, California, US


After twenty years of Law and Order episodes, this is a clear cut case of manslaughter by the homeless guy that pushed him.
But, that probably won't get reported.
Dec 04 12 11:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,631
Portland, Oregon, US


I would expect there are PJ's out there who think that it would be proper to do nothing to help/render aid, and that their responsibility is to take photos.

Not being there, not knowing how much opportunity the photographer had to help try to rescue the fallen man, I'm not going to judge, rather simply state that I would hope that most people would try to help.

I also don't understand why such stations don't have barriers to prevent this from happening, or require trains to slow down when passing platforms.
Dec 04 12 11:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FemmeArtPhoto
Posts: 129
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Carlos Occidental wrote:
After twenty years of Law and Order episodes, this is a clear cut case of manslaughter by the homeless guy that pushed him.
But, that probably won't get reported.

Not manslaughter--murder

Dec 04 12 11:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 32,118
Los Angeles, California, US


Carlos Occidental wrote:
After twenty years of Law and Order episodes, this is a clear cut case of manslaughter by the homeless guy that pushed him.
But, that probably won't get reported.

Won't get reported by Rupert Murdoch's NY Post?

Dec 04 12 11:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


According to the text and video, the photographer apparently wasn't strong enough to pull the guy off the tracks..... So he backed up to get this shot? I feel pretty safe calling bullshit on that story.
Dec 04 12 11:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Paul AI
Posts: 1,046
Shawnee, Oklahoma, US


What's really messed up is the picture clearly shows that *no one* was trying to help.
Dec 04 12 11:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,620
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


The photographer DID claim that he was trying to help.......by warning the train conductor with his camera flash!!!?! I'm calling Bovine feces on that one!
Dec 04 12 11:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brooklyn Bridge Images
Posts: 9,145
Brooklyn, New York, US


Paul AI wrote:
What's really messed up is the picture clearly shows that *no one* was trying to help.

Do you see a crowd of bystanders near by doing nothing ?

Dec 04 12 11:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kaouthia
Posts: 3,152
Lancaster, England, United Kingdom


Paul AI wrote:
What's really messed up is the picture clearly shows that *no one* was trying to help.

Judging by the proximity of the (probably rather fast) moving train, they got the fuck out of the way so they weren't dragged down there with him.

There's only so much help you can offer.

Dec 04 12 11:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Stay Puftt
Posts: 98
Bilisht, Devoll, Albania


Is that an express train coming through at full speed or one about to stop at the station? Makes all the difference in velocity. Still, this photographer should have been trying to pull him up until the last second. The "I hoped the driver would see my flash" idea is absurd.
Dec 04 12 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Silly Rabbit
Posts: 207
Los Angeles, California, US


Its hard to tell from the picture but there had to be at least a few people around besides Han (the man who fell), the photographer, and the guy harassing people. That's evident from the line that says the dude was harassing PEOPLE and Han WENT to go try to calm him down. Meaning Han wasn't the one being harassed. One of those that witnessed this situation should confirm or shoot down the photographer's implausible story and, also, why didn't anyone try to help pull him up? It looks like they had enough time for one full force attempt before the train would collide with Han. Also, that headline is a nightmare. It is offensive to Han and a terrible headline on its own. Its elementary at best.
Dec 04 12 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BlueMoonPics
Posts: 3,985
New York, New York, US


ForeverFotos wrote:
The photographer DID claim that he was trying to help.......by warning the train conductor with his camera flash!!!?! I'm calling Bovine feces on that one!

He was probably blinding the conductor instead with the flashes.
This whole thing sounds just not right.

FYI, I think that if I fell onto the tracks and couldn't get out I'd lie down in the middle between the tracks.  There is some room there to duck and let the train ride over you.
Not completely sure of this theory and I wouldn't want to test it either.

Dec 04 12 12:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L A U B E N H E I M E R
Posts: 8,395
Seattle, Washington, US


Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Do you see a crowd of bystanders near by doing nothing ?

the photographer only shows you what they want you to see.

Dec 04 12 12:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Nicholas Fischer
Posts: 40
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada


Sometimes it's better to stand back then interfere and get ourselves in danger. How would you feel if you were trying to pull the guy up and then you slip and you both end up on the tracks. And I'm sure there is plenty of pictures like this, and at least it wasn't a photo of the aftermath which other papers in the world would have been glad to post of their front covers.
Dec 04 12 12:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kaouthia
Posts: 3,152
Lancaster, England, United Kingdom


Nicholas Fischer wrote:
How would you feel if you were trying to pull the guy up and then you slip and you both end up on the tracks.

However you felt, you probably wouldn't be feeling it for very long.

Dec 04 12 12:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jhono Bashian
Posts: 2,428
Cleveland, Ohio, US


Photojournalism at its finest? 
Who can blame the photographer? 
Is he an opportunist of a Pulitzer Prize winner? 

Who can blame the Post?
They want to sell papers.   

Who will find the bum that killed this poor sole?
Dec 04 12 12:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Nicholas Fischer wrote:
Sometimes it's better to stand back then interfere and get ourselves in danger. How would you feel if you were trying to pull the guy up and then you slip and you both end up on the tracks. And I'm sure there is plenty of pictures like this, and at least it wasn't a photo of the aftermath which other papers in the world would have been glad to post of their front covers.

That's the difference between a coward and a hero.

Dec 04 12 12:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
K I S S P H O T O
Posts: 571
Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom


Dec 04 12 12:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John M Hoyt
Posts: 344
Greenville, South Carolina, US


Mark Laubenheimer wrote:

the photographer only shows you what they want you to see.

True... but the security footage will reveal all. Ever notice the dozens of surveillance cameras at most platforms like that?

Dec 04 12 12:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,620
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


http://blogs.smh.com.au/photographers/vietcong.JPG

This photo won a Pulitzer prize during the Vietnam war, I'm sure the train photographer had visions of grandeur as he awaited the outcome of this murder. Whatever sells papers, right?
Dec 04 12 12:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
o k u t a k e
Posts: 4,660
New York, New York, US


As a photojournalist your first instinct is to take a photo. There are photos that would have been missed if the photographer helped instead that have guided public opinion and changed the world. I'm not saying what happened is right, but perhaps this photo will help in the cause to put up barriers that will stop other subway accidents that annually occur here in NYC. So perhaps the photographer didn't do as much as he could for one guy, but he may save more lives on the whole.

...Of course he's gotta live with it.


Without the Exif, you can't see exactly how far away he was, but you can see that he was at the limits of his flash so, 10ft-15ft? Depends on what flash he's using. The trains come pretty fast, but if the guy had enough time to fall in and get his arms back up on the platform, the photographer should have had enough time to run over and give the guy a helping hand if he was thinking fast enough. Sometimes when you're head in stuck behind a camera you can't see that a train is coming until it's too late.
Dec 04 12 12:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Horwitz
Posts: 2,585
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


@4ever...at least that one was well done!
Dec 04 12 12:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Untitled Photographer
Posts: 1,179
Dallas, Texas, US


Here is one thing we know, none of us were there to see what was going on nor do we know how close or far the photographer was from the victim nor do we know any of the other intangibles that only people there were privvy to.  Context is everything and based on this single photo it's difficult to tell what could have been done or how much time there was.

I want to be clear, I am not condoning people doing nothing, but I'm reluctant to dog pile on the photog or others since I was not there. 

And photograph above showing the SVN police officer executing the NVN "terrorist" (who had the day before murdered one or more of the fellow SVN officer(s), was the photog expected to stop the execution?  "Pardon me sir, but I'm a photographer and you're not supposed to shoot an unarmed man in the head, it says so right here in my cub scout handbook.  Here, read it for yourself"

Life is ugly sometimes.  It just is.
Dec 04 12 12:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
o k u t a k e
Posts: 4,660
New York, New York, US


BlueMoonPics wrote:

He was probably blinding the conductor instead with the flashes.
This whole thing sounds just not right.

FYI, I think that if I fell onto the tracks and couldn't get out I'd lie down in the middle between the tracks.  There is some room there to duck and let the train ride over you.
Not completely sure of this theory and I wouldn't want to test it either.

I was thinking the same thing. I once saw a 2X4 laying across the ditches that wasn't hit by the train so there's enough clearance. Not something I'd ever want to experience, but if you can't get up, that's your best bet.

Dec 04 12 12:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gippingvalleyphotograph
Posts: 41
Ipswich, England, United Kingdom


None of us know how we would really react in a similar situation unless we have actually been there. Some people go into overdrive in a crisis - others freeze. Different situations promote different reactions in different people. I know tough builders who run from spiders.

Remember, the only difference between a hero and a fool is whether their actions were successful. - success = brave, failure = idiot.

Criticise the tog, fine, criticise the paper, OK, want to make a difference? - stop buying the paper. That is the only objection which makes a difference. I'll bet a significant number of the people who paid their cash for a copy of the paper would criticise it's publication - but they sponsored it.

We are all hypocrites
Dec 04 12 12:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Armando D Photography
Posts: 557
Houston, Texas, US


It's hard to make a comment of the incident true or false, but the title for the paper of the photo was really in bad taste and disrespectful, they could have put "tragic moment" or at most "the last second" I dunno the whole Doomed part .. Uhg have fun with that PR nightmare
Dec 04 12 01:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ronald Paulsen
Posts: 137
Cedar Falls, Iowa, US


It's a photograph. If you want to be outraged go for it.
Dec 04 12 01:24 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 21,548
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


Kaouthia wrote:

Paul AI wrote:
What's really messed up is the picture clearly shows that *no one* was trying to help.

Judging by the proximity of the (probably rather fast) moving train, they got the fuck out of the way so they weren't dragged down there with him.

There's only so much help you can offer.

Actually, on the London Underground the guy could have saved himself by laying in the suicide pit**. So, in fact, I see a civil suit against NYC for not engineering such pits into their system. Remember, that's the American way.

As for the photographer? I don't think he would have had a duty of care in a case like this. It seems, if his claims are accurately reported, that he did what he could. That it might not have been enough is no fault of his.

Studio36

** Suicide pit = the name describes a ca24" deep trench excavated between the tracks deep enough so that someone laying in the pit [e.g. a wannabe suicide,] will not be struck by a train.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_02/tubewomanES2202_468x351.jpg

Dec 04 12 01:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPierce Photography
Posts: 19,581
Amherst, Massachusetts, US


That's terrible sad
Dec 04 12 02:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


studio36uk wrote:
** Suicide pit = the name describes a ca24" deep trench excavated between the tracks deep enough so that someone laying in the pit [e.g. a wannabe suicide,] will not be struck by a train.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_02/tubewomanES2202_468x351.jpg

With no escape route I'm shocked this isn't a daily occurrence on NYC Subways.

I'm actually more outraged by the sensationalist headline than the photographer's actions or non-actions. He can at least justify his decision...whether we agree with it or not.

But the headline was well-planned and discussed by a group of executives. So, a group of "sane" people at the NY Post, and a final decision maker, actually said, "Yes...run with that!"

I know the Post has no credibility whatsoever as a journalistic entity...but even by their standards this is in incredibly poor taste.

Dec 04 12 02:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
-Ira
Posts: 2,179
New York, New York, US


studio36uk wrote:
Actually, on the London Underground the guy could have saved himself by laying in the suicide pit**. So, in fact, I see a civil suit against NYC for not engineering such pits into their system. Remember, that's the American way.

As for the photographer? I don't think he would have had a duty of care in a case like this. It seems, if his claims are accurately reported, that he did what he could. That it might not have been enough is no fault of his.

Studio36

** Suicide pit = the name describes a ca24" deep trench excavated between the tracks deep enough so that someone laying in the pit [e.g. a wannabe suicide,] will not be struck by a train.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_02/tubewomanES2202_468x351.jpg

There is space on the NYC Subway for this to happen, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/03/nyreg … .html?_r=0

That man is a hero.

I would hope that if I were in the same situation I would be brave enough to do whatever I could to help.  Won't know unless I am there.

Dec 04 12 02:11 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 21,548
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


-Ira wrote:

studio36uk wrote:
Actually, on the London Underground the guy could have saved himself by laying in the suicide pit**. So, in fact, I see a civil suit against NYC for not engineering such pits into their system. Remember, that's the American way.

As for the photographer? I don't think he would have had a duty of care in a case like this. It seems, if his claims are accurately reported, that he did what he could. That it might not have been enough is no fault of his.

Studio36

** Suicide pit = the name describes a ca24" deep trench excavated between the tracks deep enough so that someone laying in the pit [e.g. a wannabe suicide,] will not be struck by a train.
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_02/tubewomanES2202_468x351.jpg

There is space on the NYC Subway for this to happen, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/03/nyreg … .html?_r=0

That man is a hero.

I would hope that if I were in the same situation I would be brave enough to do whatever I could to help.  Won't know unless I am there.

Ah, YES!!! I just watched some additional video of the NYC incident [that I had not seen before my first post] and the guy [victim] WAS sitting in a trench [similar to those on the London Underground's system but maybe not as deep] but stood up to try and get back on the platform. Sadly, he might be alive today if he had just stayed where he was, laid down flat, and let the train safely roll over him.

Screenshot from that news video clip
http://studio36.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/NYC.jpg

There's a lesson here for all the strap-hangers in BOTH cities.

Studio36

Dec 04 12 02:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Untitled Photographer
Posts: 1,179
Dallas, Texas, US


They could also put an indention or something along the wall that someone could put their foot in/on to help get themselves out.  A series of them in fact to be used for a ladder effect.
Dec 04 12 02:46 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Robb Mann
Posts: 10,019
Baltimore, Maryland, US


A lot is left unexplained.

NYC subway platforms are narrow. Where is the crowd? If there wasn't enough time for a rescue that means he got pushed into the tracks about the time the train entered the platform - not enough time for people to get out of the way.

If the photographer was frantically running toward the train, how did he frame the shot so well? Even if cropped, thats a great angle and looks level. How did he repeatedly fire his flash? Even on board needs a second or two to recharge. 'Repeatedly firing his flash' tells me there was enough time for someone to help out.

Unless the crazy homeless man was still a threat. If he was strong enough to push one man onto the tracks he could have pushed more. What did the homeless man do?

Id guess if the murderer was still around the photographer would have put him in the shot too - even more dramatic.

It doesnt add up.
Dec 04 12 03:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Steven Bodo
Posts: 453
Seattle, Washington, US


DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote:
According to the text and video, the photographer apparently wasn't strong enough to pull the guy off the tracks..... So he backed up to get this shot? I feel pretty safe calling bullshit on that story.

Totally!

He recoded the argument between the two men before the train came in. Perhaps, just maybe he could have help them cool off before it got to pushing.

And then, it's unclear if he even tried to pull the guy up or just decided that he wasn't strong enough.

Instead, he decided to blind the train operator with his flash.  Mh. But he managed to get a perfectly composed shot.

Dec 04 12 10:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
hbutz New York
Posts: 3,147
New York, New York, US


ForeverFotos wrote:
http://blogs.smh.com.au/photographers/vietcong.JPG

This photo won a Pulitzer prize during the Vietnam war, I'm sure the train photographer had visions of grandeur as he awaited the outcome of this murder. Whatever sells papers, right?

Entirely different.  The photographer in Vietnam had no hope of saving the victim.  In an interview he later regrets taking the image and has difficulty living with himself.  War photos have merit to show the true horrors of war and have been used in the past to bring about peace and the end of the war.

The photographer in the subway just appears to be a dick.

Dec 05 12 03:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kawika Photography
Posts: 110
San Diego, California, US


Horrible situation. I give the photographer the benefit of the doubt. It's easy to try to blame journalists for the event when the focus should be on the guy who pushed the man. I don't know how far away the photog was when he first saw what was going on. He could have been running at the man then realized he wasn't going to make so instinct took over and he recorded the moment. That image has value to the police and prosecutors. It doesn't belong in the media though.
Dec 05 12 06:34 am  Link  Quote 
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