A lot of outrage over this image..what do you think ? Should the photographer be attacked for not doing more ? Is it possible he could've done more ? If you were him what would you have done ?
John M Hoyt
Posts: 284
Greenville, South Carolina, US
Mark Laubenheimer wrote: the whole thing is horrible. ):
shame on the new york post for creating that cover.
When you don't have an actual train wreck to photograph for the news, you have to use whatever you can. Hrmmm maybe the photographer paid the bum to push the guy? Nah.
After twenty years of Law and Order episodes, this is a clear cut case of manslaughter by the homeless guy that pushed him.
But, that probably won't get reported.
I would expect there are PJ's out there who think that it would be proper to do nothing to help/render aid, and that their responsibility is to take photos.
Not being there, not knowing how much opportunity the photographer had to help try to rescue the fallen man, I'm not going to judge, rather simply state that I would hope that most people would try to help.
I also don't understand why such stations don't have barriers to prevent this from happening, or require trains to slow down when passing platforms.
FemmeArtPhoto
Posts: 121
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Carlos Occidental wrote: After twenty years of Law and Order episodes, this is a clear cut case of manslaughter by the homeless guy that pushed him.
But, that probably won't get reported.
Carlos Occidental wrote: After twenty years of Law and Order episodes, this is a clear cut case of manslaughter by the homeless guy that pushed him.
But, that probably won't get reported.
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,645
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
According to the text and video, the photographer apparently wasn't strong enough to pull the guy off the tracks..... So he backed up to get this shot? I feel pretty safe calling bullshit on that story.
The photographer DID claim that he was trying to help.......by warning the train conductor with his camera flash!!!?! I'm calling Bovine feces on that one!
Is that an express train coming through at full speed or one about to stop at the station? Makes all the difference in velocity. Still, this photographer should have been trying to pull him up until the last second. The "I hoped the driver would see my flash" idea is absurd.
Silly Rabbit
Posts: 205
Los Angeles, California, US
Its hard to tell from the picture but there had to be at least a few people around besides Han (the man who fell), the photographer, and the guy harassing people. That's evident from the line that says the dude was harassing PEOPLE and Han WENT to go try to calm him down. Meaning Han wasn't the one being harassed. One of those that witnessed this situation should confirm or shoot down the photographer's implausible story and, also, why didn't anyone try to help pull him up? It looks like they had enough time for one full force attempt before the train would collide with Han. Also, that headline is a nightmare. It is offensive to Han and a terrible headline on its own. Its elementary at best.
ForeverFotos wrote: The photographer DID claim that he was trying to help.......by warning the train conductor with his camera flash!!!?! I'm calling Bovine feces on that one!
He was probably blinding the conductor instead with the flashes.
This whole thing sounds just not right.
FYI, I think that if I fell onto the tracks and couldn't get out I'd lie down in the middle between the tracks. There is some room there to duck and let the train ride over you.
Not completely sure of this theory and I wouldn't want to test it either.
Sometimes it's better to stand back then interfere and get ourselves in danger. How would you feel if you were trying to pull the guy up and then you slip and you both end up on the tracks. And I'm sure there is plenty of pictures like this, and at least it wasn't a photo of the aftermath which other papers in the world would have been glad to post of their front covers.
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,645
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Nicholas Fischer wrote: Sometimes it's better to stand back then interfere and get ourselves in danger. How would you feel if you were trying to pull the guy up and then you slip and you both end up on the tracks. And I'm sure there is plenty of pictures like this, and at least it wasn't a photo of the aftermath which other papers in the world would have been glad to post of their front covers.
That's the difference between a coward and a hero.
This photo won a Pulitzer prize during the Vietnam war, I'm sure the train photographer had visions of grandeur as he awaited the outcome of this murder. Whatever sells papers, right?
As a photojournalist your first instinct is to take a photo. There are photos that would have been missed if the photographer helped instead that have guided public opinion and changed the world. I'm not saying what happened is right, but perhaps this photo will help in the cause to put up barriers that will stop other subway accidents that annually occur here in NYC. So perhaps the photographer didn't do as much as he could for one guy, but he may save more lives on the whole.
...Of course he's gotta live with it.
Without the Exif, you can't see exactly how far away he was, but you can see that he was at the limits of his flash so, 10ft-15ft? Depends on what flash he's using. The trains come pretty fast, but if the guy had enough time to fall in and get his arms back up on the platform, the photographer should have had enough time to run over and give the guy a helping hand if he was thinking fast enough. Sometimes when you're head in stuck behind a camera you can't see that a train is coming until it's too late.
Here is one thing we know, none of us were there to see what was going on nor do we know how close or far the photographer was from the victim nor do we know any of the other intangibles that only people there were privvy to. Context is everything and based on this single photo it's difficult to tell what could have been done or how much time there was.
I want to be clear, I am not condoning people doing nothing, but I'm reluctant to dog pile on the photog or others since I was not there.
And photograph above showing the SVN police officer executing the NVN "terrorist" (who had the day before murdered one or more of the fellow SVN officer(s), was the photog expected to stop the execution? "Pardon me sir, but I'm a photographer and you're not supposed to shoot an unarmed man in the head, it says so right here in my cub scout handbook. Here, read it for yourself"
He was probably blinding the conductor instead with the flashes.
This whole thing sounds just not right.
FYI, I think that if I fell onto the tracks and couldn't get out I'd lie down in the middle between the tracks. There is some room there to duck and let the train ride over you.
Not completely sure of this theory and I wouldn't want to test it either.
I was thinking the same thing. I once saw a 2X4 laying across the ditches that wasn't hit by the train so there's enough clearance. Not something I'd ever want to experience, but if you can't get up, that's your best bet.
None of us know how we would really react in a similar situation unless we have actually been there. Some people go into overdrive in a crisis - others freeze. Different situations promote different reactions in different people. I know tough builders who run from spiders.
Remember, the only difference between a hero and a fool is whether their actions were successful. - success = brave, failure = idiot.
Criticise the tog, fine, criticise the paper, OK, want to make a difference? - stop buying the paper. That is the only objection which makes a difference. I'll bet a significant number of the people who paid their cash for a copy of the paper would criticise it's publication - but they sponsored it.
It's hard to make a comment of the incident true or false, but the title for the paper of the photo was really in bad taste and disrespectful, they could have put "tragic moment" or at most "the last second" I dunno the whole Doomed part .. Uhg have fun with that PR nightmare
studio36uk
Posts: 20,221
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna
Kaouthia wrote:
Paul AI wrote: What's really messed up is the picture clearly shows that *no one* was trying to help.
Judging by the proximity of the (probably rather fast) moving train, they got the fuck out of the way so they weren't dragged down there with him.
There's only so much help you can offer.
Actually, on the London Underground the guy could have saved himself by laying in the suicide pit**. So, in fact, I see a civil suit against NYC for not engineering such pits into their system. Remember, that's the American way.
As for the photographer? I don't think he would have had a duty of care in a case like this. It seems, if his claims are accurately reported, that he did what he could. That it might not have been enough is no fault of his.
Studio36
** Suicide pit = the name describes a ca24" deep trench excavated between the tracks deep enough so that someone laying in the pit [e.g. a wannabe suicide,] will not be struck by a train.
studio36uk wrote: ** Suicide pit = the name describes a ca24" deep trench excavated between the tracks deep enough so that someone laying in the pit [e.g. a wannabe suicide,] will not be struck by a train.
With no escape route I'm shocked this isn't a daily occurrence on NYC Subways.
I'm actually more outraged by the sensationalist headline than the photographer's actions or non-actions. He can at least justify his decision...whether we agree with it or not.
But the headline was well-planned and discussed by a group of executives. So, a group of "sane" people at the NY Post, and a final decision maker, actually said, "Yes...run with that!"
I know the Post has no credibility whatsoever as a journalistic entity...but even by their standards this is in incredibly poor taste.
studio36uk wrote: Actually, on the London Underground the guy could have saved himself by laying in the suicide pit**. So, in fact, I see a civil suit against NYC for not engineering such pits into their system. Remember, that's the American way.
As for the photographer? I don't think he would have had a duty of care in a case like this. It seems, if his claims are accurately reported, that he did what he could. That it might not have been enough is no fault of his.
Studio36
** Suicide pit = the name describes a ca24" deep trench excavated between the tracks deep enough so that someone laying in the pit [e.g. a wannabe suicide,] will not be struck by a train.
studio36uk
Posts: 20,221
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna
-Ira wrote:
studio36uk wrote: Actually, on the London Underground the guy could have saved himself by laying in the suicide pit**. So, in fact, I see a civil suit against NYC for not engineering such pits into their system. Remember, that's the American way.
As for the photographer? I don't think he would have had a duty of care in a case like this. It seems, if his claims are accurately reported, that he did what he could. That it might not have been enough is no fault of his.
Studio36
** Suicide pit = the name describes a ca24" deep trench excavated between the tracks deep enough so that someone laying in the pit [e.g. a wannabe suicide,] will not be struck by a train.
I would hope that if I were in the same situation I would be brave enough to do whatever I could to help. Won't know unless I am there.
Ah, YES!!! I just watched some additional video of the NYC incident [that I had not seen before my first post] and the guy [victim] WAS sitting in a trench [similar to those on the London Underground's system but maybe not as deep] but stood up to try and get back on the platform. Sadly, he might be alive today if he had just stayed where he was, laid down flat, and let the train safely roll over him.
Screenshot from that news video clip
There's a lesson here for all the strap-hangers in BOTH cities.
They could also put an indention or something along the wall that someone could put their foot in/on to help get themselves out. A series of them in fact to be used for a ladder effect.
NYC subway platforms are narrow. Where is the crowd? If there wasn't enough time for a rescue that means he got pushed into the tracks about the time the train entered the platform - not enough time for people to get out of the way.
If the photographer was frantically running toward the train, how did he frame the shot so well? Even if cropped, thats a great angle and looks level. How did he repeatedly fire his flash? Even on board needs a second or two to recharge. 'Repeatedly firing his flash' tells me there was enough time for someone to help out.
Unless the crazy homeless man was still a threat. If he was strong enough to push one man onto the tracks he could have pushed more. What did the homeless man do?
Id guess if the murderer was still around the photographer would have put him in the shot too - even more dramatic.
DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote: According to the text and video, the photographer apparently wasn't strong enough to pull the guy off the tracks..... So he backed up to get this shot? I feel pretty safe calling bullshit on that story.
Totally!
He recoded the argument between the two men before the train came in. Perhaps, just maybe he could have help them cool off before it got to pushing.
And then, it's unclear if he even tried to pull the guy up or just decided that he wasn't strong enough.
Instead, he decided to blind the train operator with his flash. Mh. But he managed to get a perfectly composed shot.
This photo won a Pulitzer prize during the Vietnam war, I'm sure the train photographer had visions of grandeur as he awaited the outcome of this murder. Whatever sells papers, right?
Entirely different. The photographer in Vietnam had no hope of saving the victim. In an interview he later regrets taking the image and has difficulty living with himself. War photos have merit to show the true horrors of war and have been used in the past to bring about peace and the end of the war.
The photographer in the subway just appears to be a dick.
Horrible situation. I give the photographer the benefit of the doubt. It's easy to try to blame journalists for the event when the focus should be on the guy who pushed the man. I don't know how far away the photog was when he first saw what was going on. He could have been running at the man then realized he wasn't going to make so instinct took over and he recorded the moment. That image has value to the police and prosecutors. It doesn't belong in the media though.
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