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Photographer
Douglas Photo 78
Posts: 156
Tallahassee, Florida, US


I will try and phrase this question so that this thread does not get to far of track; so ready the scenario but focus on the question.

I don't shoot nudes but I don't have a problem with it; however there are some shoots that I would like to do (implied nude) that would require the model to be in various stated of undressed at different locations (non studio).
I am in Florida and I have researched the laws, so I am not asking about the specific laws. Something I have learned from my research, is that most people and even law enforcement do not know what the specific laws on nudity are. So with all the misunderstanding that the general public and law Enforcement has, and the gray areas in the Florida laws: (here is the actual question)

Do you carry around a copy of the laws on nudity of your state to help defuse a situation with a person or official that is accusing you of illegal acts when if fact (if the laws are being followed) you are not?

Has anyone dealt with this situation? 

I am not implying that I plan to shoot implied nudes on the stairs of town hall; I am looking for locations that are discrete, where few people go and the likely hood of contact is minimal. I can not guarantee that someone will not wall up on the shoot and freak out.
Dec 06 12 11:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotosbyChuck
Posts: 2,222
Glen Ellyn, Illinois, US


You said you researched your local laws.  Stay within them.  If you're shooting implied, it shouldn't be as difficult as it might be nude.

Sounds more like a question of how to handle someone who gets bothered.  Waving a copy of laws around isn't going to diffuse anything.    Calm tones and say as little as possible, in my book.
Dec 06 12 11:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Douglas Photo 78
Posts: 156
Tallahassee, Florida, US


Yes that is what I am interested in, not the laws but dealing with a potential problem on site.

PhotosbyChuck wrote:
Sounds more like a question of how to handle someone who gets bothered.  Waving a copy of laws around isn't going to diffuse anything.    Calm tones and say as little as possible, in my book.

Dec 06 12 11:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,478
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


carrying around a copy of laws is a milder form of carrying around mace or a whistle. you have to know how to use it.  Unless you know how to respectfully but forcefully advocate your position you could do more harm than good. basically don't do it unless you are a very good trial lawyer used to dealing with police.
Dec 06 12 11:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Douglas Photo 78
Posts: 156
Tallahassee, Florida, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
carrying around a copy of laws is a milder form of carrying around mace or a whistle. you have to know how to use it.  Unless you know how to respectfully but forcefully advocate your position you could do more harm than good. basically don't do it unless you are a very good trial lawyer used to dealing with police.

So having actual documentation that shows I am legally justified to be there will not help?
I do agree with you that because there are some gray areas it could easily turn into a non productive argument where no one leaves happy and the whole shoot is a bust.

Dec 06 12 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotosbyChuck
Posts: 2,222
Glen Ellyn, Illinois, US


Douglas Photo 78 wrote:
Yes that is what I am interested in, not the laws but dealing with a potential problem on site.

Do what you can to minimize the incidence (timing, location, etc.) and then understand that should someone have an issue, a debate isn't in your favor.  Your goal is not to educate them on law...it's to disinterest them in the event. 

For a concerned citizen, I'd offer a quick apology for the perceived inconvenience and keep shooting. 

For a police officer, I'd stop shooting and explain that I believe I'm within the law and am not trying to disturb the peace.  If the officer issued an order for me to move along despite that, I would -- even if I think I'm right.  It's not worth the time or money to prove it ... and what if I'm wrong? smile

Dec 06 12 12:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotosbyChuck
Posts: 2,222
Glen Ellyn, Illinois, US


Douglas Photo 78 wrote:
So having actual documentation that shows I am legally justified to be there will not help?

If it was a permit, then yes -- by all means, carry it.  If you're talking about printing ordinances, then no.  Be informed, but paper waving isn't going to help.

Dec 06 12 12:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vincent Arthur
Posts: 893
Red Bank, New Jersey, US


Douglas Photo 78 wrote:

So having actual documentation that shows I am legally justified to be there will not help?
I do agree with you that because there are some gray areas it could easily turn into a non productive argument where no one leaves happy and the whole shoot is a bust.

Carrying a copy of the law will not help with a cop questioning you or telling you to stop.  He/she can arrest you and leave it to the lawyers to figure out which will cost you precious time and money.

What I do is shoot quickly and don't get caught.  If you do get caught, don't be an asshole.

Dec 06 12 12:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
sospix
Posts: 20,916
Orlando, Florida, US


Well, if you've already researched the laws, then you know which places (state parks, federal parks, and some designated areas) have some tolerance for some forms of nudity  .  .  .  there's also the variance of creating an artistic image, which changes the places you'd legally be allowed to have some nudity  .  .  .  all that being said, chances are (and, yes, this is from experience) you're still going to run into either "the public", or a civil servant that won't be happy if they see too much skin  .  .  .  having documentation of laws may help you once you've gotten to the police station, but probably won't help on scene  .  .  .  most times if you've been "caught", simply playing naive, or unaware that you're doing anything wrong is the best tact to start with  .  .  .  if the model covers up, and you show whoever the "authority" may be that you're not shooting a porn epic, they'll either tell you to move on, move to a different location, or just be aware of the public  .  .  .  I've yet to have it become so caustic that anything much more than that has happened  .  .  .  hope the shoot goes well for you  .  .  .

SOS
Dec 06 12 12:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LALightPhoto
Posts: 53
Los Angeles, California, US


It's really hard and the best way to do it is just to either do it somewhere where the law is really lax (like in New York City believe it or not), or somewhere where no one will see you.  Unless you are being incredibly blatant, most cops won't arrest you for shooting someone who is mostly undressed, but this won't keep them from hassling you.  The worst I ever experienced was in Atlanta.

I used to shoot nudes on the beach all the time in Fort Lauderdale.

Know that doesn't help much.
Dec 06 12 12:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,353
Los Angeles, California, US


It's simple  . . . . get city (or county or state) permits to shoot where you want to be located.

Have appropriate insurance.

Make sure all recognized buildings have issued property releases.

Hire off-duty uniformed cops to accompany you on your shoot and to handle any possible interference from outsiders.

Don't break any nudity laws and act professionally.

This is how it's handled in a professional way.

I've done dozens of shoots like this for Playboy, Penthouse, Muscle & Fitness and other magazines and have never had a problem.

KM
Dec 06 12 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Douglas Photo 78
Posts: 156
Tallahassee, Florida, US


Thanks everyone, all of your insights are great! I believe that all the different approaches will be useful tools if and when a situation arises.
Dec 06 12 12:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Douglas Photo 78
Posts: 156
Tallahassee, Florida, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
It's simple  . . . . get city (or county or state) permits to shoot where you want to be located.

Have appropriate insurance.

Make sure all recognized buildings have issued property releases.

Hire off-duty uniformed cops to accompany you on your shoot and to handle any possible interference from outsiders.

Don't break any nudity laws and act professionally.

This is how it's handled in a professional way.

I've done dozens of shoots like this for Playboy, Penthouse, Muscle & Fitness and other magazines and have never had a problem.

KM

I like the legal finality to your solution. It is probably more work, but less problems and interruptions.

Dec 06 12 12:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Phantasmal Images
Posts: 517
Boston, Massachusetts, US


What the law says, and what will actually happen, are often completely unrelated. In Massachusetts for example, public nudity is a felony with a minimum mandatory two year sentence (don't you just love those old puritanical laws?). But the reality is that so long as you're not causing a public disturbance, I doubt very much that any of the local cops will arrest you for it. Most of the cops around here have more important things to do.
Dec 06 12 04:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Alien LiFe
Posts: 785
San Francisco, California, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
It's simple  . . . . get city (or county or state) permits to shoot where you want to be located.

Have appropriate insurance.

Make sure all recognized buildings have issued property releases.

Hire off-duty uniformed cops to accompany you on your shoot and to handle any possible interference from outsiders.

Don't break any nudity laws and act professionally.

This is how it's handled in a professional way.

I've done dozens of shoots like this for Playboy, Penthouse, Muscle & Fitness and other magazines and have never had a problem.

KM

This !!!
If you want to do it right ... and be safe ...

Dec 06 12 04:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,076
Salem, Oregon, US


maybe things are different here than in your area, but photographers around here do nude location shoots all the time and i've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for it. i have heard of trouble related to trespassing and especially trespassing on railroad tracks. and issues related to parks wanting to charge photographers to shoot there.

we used to have a studio up on the third floor of a building downtown and i didn't think anyone could see in but we were doing nudes by window light and at one point i looked out and a group of guys gave the model a thumbs up!
Dec 06 12 04:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 4,556
Jacksonville, Florida, US


PhotosbyChuck wrote:

If it was a permit, then yes -- by all means, carry it.  If you're talking about printing ordinances, then no.  Be informed, but paper waving isn't going to help.

(waving papers), permit yes, and as for law, the arresting officer may say "we'll leave that up to the Judge ! just stay low key is what I do, good luck

Dec 06 12 04:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 4,556
Jacksonville, Florida, US


twoharts wrote:
maybe things are different here than in your area, but photographers around here do nude location shoots all the time and i've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for it. i have heard of trouble related to trespassing and especially trespassing on railroad tracks. and issues related to parks wanting to charge photographers to shoot there.

we used to have a studio up on the third floor of a building downtown and i didn't think anyone could see in but we were doing nudes by window light and at one point i looked out and a group of guys gave the model a thumbs up!

same here , maybe been lucky.....but odds are one day, that some kids will be cutting through the woods, and or dad is taking his kids on a nature hike and OOOOPS, naked girl and "perverted guy" taking pictures !

Dec 06 12 04:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vector One Photography
Posts: 2,482
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


It has very little to do with nudity and not much to do with the law.  It's about political correctness and CYA.

People, especially those on one end of the spectrum don't like anything sexual and will use the law to enforce they own judgement which are usually based on their religion and its bias.  The police officer could give a crap but he's between a rock and a hard place as he would like to keep his job long enough to be vested in his retirement system.

But as far as Florida law goes, the charge is trespass after warning. So they have to tell you to leave or have it posted before you are in trouble.  Public nudity is not a problem for you unless you shoot with your digess hanging out. 

If she's doing a hand bra and people driving by see it, you are going to get hassled. Be nice to the cop, promise him (or her) that you will pack up, move out of state, and never ever do this again.

Remember this one rule when shooting in public places. If you do it at a time or place with passerby's, passerby's cause crowds, crowds cause cops, cops cause legal fees, legal fees cause.... you can see where this is going.

But above all remember... have fun !

P.S. You can see by the photos in  my profile I do partial and full nudity in some very public places.

P.P.S. Btw, the quickest way to go to jail is to "educate" the police officer by reading him the law that you are trying convince him you are not breaking. As we had a saying, "you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride."
Dec 06 12 05:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,142
New York, New York, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
It's simple  . . . . get city (or county or state) permits to shoot where you want to be located.

Have appropriate insurance.

Make sure all recognized buildings have issued property releases.

Hire off-duty uniformed cops to accompany you on your shoot and to handle any possible interference from outsiders.

Don't break any nudity laws and act professionally.

This is how it's handled in a professional way.

I've done dozens of shoots like this for Playboy, Penthouse, Muscle & Fitness and other magazines and have never had a problem.

KM

In NYC you need a license to hire off duty cops. I don't know about anywhere else.

Dec 06 12 05:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,142
New York, New York, US


Assuming that the nude shoot is fully legal it is still potentially offensive to some people. So, even if you are within your rights, it's morally wrong to force that on people.

The way to do your legal shoot is to find away to do it, whether it's location or time, or obstructing the view, where you're not potentially forcing someone to see it who doesn't want to.

Most likely the choices you make to accomplish that will be good ideas if you're choosing to do a non-legal nude shoot.

If you make being considerate a priority, you'll probably be ok.
Dec 06 12 05:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Boston Artist Model
Posts: 1,159
Boston, Massachusetts, US


I disagree with all and any laws against public nudity.
It is my aspiration to do a nude in public shoot as soon as I find a willing photographer.
Dec 06 12 05:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 4,556
Jacksonville, Florida, US


Boston Artist Model wrote:
I disagree with all and any laws against public nudity.
It is my aspiration to do a nude in public shoot as soon as I find a willing photographer.

agree with natural nudism, but FACTS..........LAW IS THE LAW, disagreeing isn't going to change that, write your local politicians.

Dec 06 12 05:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,076
Salem, Oregon, US


murphy's law. but the times i've read about couples getting into trouble in nature is more when they were having sex than just doing photography. no sex on my shoots. guess i'm safe. lol.

i think some photographers deliberately push the boundaries of public nudity to make their images seem more dangerous (and of course some models are exhibitionists).

PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
but odds are one day, that some kids will be cutting through the woods, and or dad is taking his kids on a nature hike and OOOOPS, naked girl and "perverted guy" taking pictures !

Dec 06 12 06:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Phantasmal Images
Posts: 517
Boston, Massachusetts, US


PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
...but odds are one day, that some kids will be cutting through the woods, and or dad is taking his kids on a nature hike and OOOOPS, naked girl and "perverted guy" taking pictures !

Been there, done that... Had four news helicopters circling at 1,000 feet on one shoot...

http://i.imgur.com/54Dus.jpg

Dec 06 12 09:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
TheHonoraryLoli
Posts: 76
Austin, Texas, US


One thing, and I'm not entirely sure no one else has mentioned it, so if they have, I apologize, but Florida has one of the largest numbers of AANR (American Association for Nude Recreation) resorts and beaches in the US.  If you truly need place that are gorgeous and accept nudity in any form, you will always have a place to go to in Florida.

Aside from that, ALWAYS carry penal codes and state/city laws with you if they are in relation to full or partial nudity, or in fact anything you might ever want to do that could be questioned by the law.  If nothing else, it saves a lot of time, and shows that you are prepared and dedicated to whatever you are doing.

As an anecdote, I go to the Pantless DART Ride in Dallas every year; we have explicit permission from the DART authorities to do so, and it is not illegal to be in non-revealing underwear in Texas in public.  However, we still encountered civilians and police officers who were very sure that what we were doing was absolutely illegal.  If not for those few smart people who brought copies of the appropriate bits of law, who knows what would have happened.  And now, even though we haven't encountered any issues since, it is still a habit we stick with, as a group, so that we can keep doing what we enjoy so much.
Dec 06 12 10:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
TheHonoraryLoli
Posts: 76
Austin, Texas, US


PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:

same here , maybe been lucky.....but odds are one day, that some kids will be cutting through the woods, and or dad is taking his kids on a nature hike and OOOOPS, naked girl and "perverted guy" taking pictures !

Haha!  This past week a photographer and I were caught in the middle of a shoot by a guy and his dogs, and another couple walking their dog; needless to say, the first guy was very happy to have dogs that day, and the couple had a really great laugh. Their dog ran up to me like I was her best friend in the whole world and they were just having a fit with awkward giggles. Hahaha.  We got lucky though, that we live in a hippy-filled area, and that they were not creepers.

Dec 06 12 10:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Douglas Photo 78
Posts: 156
Tallahassee, Florida, US


I love the first hand experience stories! I don't know how I would have reacted with news helocopters hovering over me; wow that's insane. I guess waving papers would not have done much for them!
Dec 07 12 08:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Douglas Photo 78 wrote:
I am in Florida and I have researched the laws, so I am not asking about the specific laws.

As a current Florida resident I can safely say to alter your concept, or at least the geographic region, you plan to shoot.

Besides having ridiculous laws, Florida is not the place to test the waters on public nudity. You may know the law but you can bet 99% of law enforcement will not. Nor will they care. And they don't find it helpful when you advise them about the law, especially when they're wrong.

You may be legally within your rights but it's also a major pain in the ass, and sometimes an expense, to take time out of your day going through the process just to make that point.

Dec 07 12 08:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,478
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Douglas Photo 78 wrote:
I love the first hand experience stories! I don't know how I would have reacted with news helocopters hovering over me; wow that's insane. I guess waving papers would not have done much for them!

VERY LARGE PRINT

Dec 07 12 08:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


TheHonoraryLoli wrote:
One thing, and I'm not entirely sure no one else has mentioned it, so if they have, I apologize, but Florida has one of the largest numbers of AANR (American Association for Nude Recreation) resorts and beaches in the US.  If you truly need place that are gorgeous and accept nudity in any form, you will always have a place to go to in Florida.

Much better idea. But you need to get permission from the venue to photograph on premises. Caliente Resort in my area is one of those.

Dec 07 12 08:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Douglas Photo 78
Posts: 156
Tallahassee, Florida, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

VERY LARGE PRINT

Awesome!

Dec 07 12 08:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,874
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Douglas Photo 78 wrote:
Do you carry around a copy of the laws on nudity of your state to help defuse a situation with a person or official that is accusing you of illegal acts when if fact (if the laws are being followed) you are not?

Has anyone dealt with this situation?

1. i don't carry more than i need.
2. never been caught.

Dec 07 12 08:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
THE IMAGE EDGE
Posts: 56
Portland, Oregon, US


"maybe things are different here than in your area, but photographers around here do nude location shoots all the time and i've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for it. i have heard of trouble related to trespassing and especially trespassing on railroad tracks. and issues related to parks wanting to charge photographers to shoot there."

I'm in Portland and do nude shoots all over. Yes Oregon is much more tolerant and liberal towards it.........given they we have our annual nude bike ride downtown, nude bike riders down the Burnside hill, Pride parade etc etc. I had heard of in-town public nudity(walking around downtown) down in Roseburg. Just make sure you stay way from the proximity of schools or churches or parks where kids may be around. Never had any problem yet. Just make a point to find secluded areas. At times of day and days of week no one is around, i.e. 7 am Sunday morning.

As to the railroads stay off the mainline tracks for a number or reasons:
1. Its dangerous---big trains running FAST
2. Private property
3. Railroad police--especially around yards
If you want to do tracks...look for abandoned spurs in the country side or little used lines.......theres plenty of them..........you can even find them on the internet with a little searching..........try abandoned railroad lines oregon.

Hope that helps.
Dec 07 12 08:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Boston Artist Model wrote:
I disagree with all and any laws against public nudity.

Oh, well in that case, by all means, Case Dismissed.

I disagree with all laws that prevent me from walking into Starbuck's and urinating on the floor.

Dec 07 12 09:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Douglas Photo 78
Posts: 156
Tallahassee, Florida, US


THE IMAGE EDGE wrote:
"maybe things are different here than in your area, but photographers around here do nude location shoots all the time and i've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for it. i have heard of trouble related to trespassing and especially trespassing on railroad tracks. and issues related to parks wanting to charge photographers to shoot there."

I'm in Portland and do nude shoots all over. Yes Oregon is much more tolerant and liberal towards it.........given they we have our annual nude bike ride downtown, nude bike riders down the Burnside hill, Pride parade etc etc. I had heard of in-town public nudity(walking around downtown) down in Roseburg. Just make sure you stay way from the proximity of schools or churches or parks where kids may be around. Never had any problem yet. Just make a point to find secluded areas. At times of day and days of week no one is around, i.e. 7 am Sunday morning.

As to the railroads stay off the mainline tracks for a number or reasons:
1. Its dangerous---big trains running FAST
2. Private property
3. Railroad police--especially around yards
If you want to do tracks...look for abandoned spurs in the country side or little used lines.......theres plenty of them..........you can even find them on the internet with a little searching..........try abandoned railroad lines oregon.

Hope that helps.

Living in an area that is more open to the idea is a benefit, I know of some naturalist groups that might be able to help out with finding good locations.

Not intending to start a new thread or spur a heated debate; I'm not too interested in shooting on railroads at this time. I was disenchanted in school when there was a shot on RR tracks at every critique. Until I have an amazing creative revelation about a shoot on RR tracks that is different than the rest I am happy to stop at them to avoid being crushed into little bitty photographer bits.

Dec 07 12 09:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,076
Salem, Oregon, US


i see several around here. interesting.

there was a short stretch here in west salem but it got torn up a while back.

THE IMAGE EDGE wrote:
try abandoned railroad lines oregon.

Dec 07 12 09:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,470
Houston, Texas, US


THE IMAGE EDGE wrote:
As to the railroads stay off the mainline tracks for a number or reasons:
1. Its dangerous---big trains running FAST
2. Private property
3. Railroad police--especially around yards
If you want to do tracks...look for abandoned spurs in the country side or little used lines.......theres plenty of them..........you can even find them on the internet with a little searching..........try abandoned railroad lines oregon.

Hope that helps.

If a photographer only chose to obey one law, this should be it.

twoharts wrote:
i see several around here. interesting.

there was a short stretch here in west salem but it got torn up a while back.

Given scrap metal prices, I'm sure they're being dismantled fast by the rightful owners (or others).

Dec 07 12 10:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,470
Houston, Texas, US


TheHonoraryLoli wrote:
Haha!  This past week a photographer and I were caught in the middle of a shoot by a guy and his dogs, and another couple walking their dog; needless to say, the first guy was very happy to have dogs that day, and the couple had a really great laugh.

More often that not that's how it works out.

However, never assume a friendly encounter is really that. They could have a change of heart a few minutes later or perhaps just came across as friendly due to surprise and/or confrontation avoidance. Assuming that you'll be reported and moving elsewhere is the safest response.

Any stranger who notices the shoot for more than a second or two should be assumed a potential threat.

Douglas Photo 78 wrote:
I love the first hand experience stories! I don't know how I would have reacted with news helocopters hovering over me; wow that's insane. I guess waving papers would not have done much for them!

I would assume any lingering aircraft to be a threat as well. Whenever I hear a small plane or helicopter on a shoot, I pay attention until they've moved on. And with all the talk about drones, I wonder if they will be an issue at some point?

TheHonoraryLoli wrote:
One thing, and I'm not entirely sure no one else has mentioned it, so if they have, I apologize, but Florida has one of the largest numbers of AANR (American Association for Nude Recreation) resorts and beaches in the US.  If you truly need place that are gorgeous and accept nudity in any form, you will always have a place to go to in Florida.

Nude-friendly doesn't necessarily mean photoshoot friendly.

Dec 07 12 11:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Douglas Photo 78
Posts: 156
Tallahassee, Florida, US


Got it! Bring the bare minimum so all I need to do is outrun the model while carrying my gear. big_smile

nyk fury wrote:

1. i don't carry more than i need.
2. never been caught.

Dec 07 12 11:22 am  Link  Quote 
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